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Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun

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  Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> - 2016-10-02 15:52 +0200
    Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2016-10-02 16:41 +0200
      Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 22:43 +0800
        Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2016-10-02 18:17 +0200
          Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 00:24 +0800
    Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> - 2016-10-02 20:10 +0200
      Re: Systemd fun fun fun Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2016-10-04 16:40 +0000
        Re: Systemd fun fun fun Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> - 2016-10-04 19:06 +0200
          Re: Systemd fun fun fun Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2016-10-04 17:20 +0000
            Re: Systemd fun fun fun Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2016-10-18 11:45 +0000
        Re: Systemd fun fun fun Innocuous <myemail6622@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-28 10:30 -0500
          Re: Systemd fun fun fun William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2017-01-28 18:55 +0000
            Re: Systemd fun fun fun "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2017-01-28 22:23 +0100
            Re: Systemd fun fun fun Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-01-28 22:13 +0000
              Re: Systemd fun fun fun Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-28 22:29 +0000
              Re: Systemd fun fun fun "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2017-01-29 02:43 +0100
                Re: Systemd fun fun fun Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-01-29 09:01 +0000
                  Re: Systemd fun fun fun "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2017-01-29 12:40 +0100
                    Re: Systemd fun fun fun Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-01-29 19:07 +0000
                      Re: Systemd fun fun fun "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2017-01-29 20:50 +0100
                        [A BIT SOLVED]Re: Systemd fun fun fun Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-01-29 20:13 +0000
                  Re: Systemd fun fun fun "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2017-01-30 04:23 +0100
                    Re: Systemd fun fun fun Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-01-30 08:38 +0000
                      Re: Systemd fun fun fun "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2017-01-30 14:12 +0100
                        Re: Systemd fun fun fun Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-01-30 15:05 +0000
                        Re: Systemd fun fun fun "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2017-01-30 11:53 -0600
                Re: Systemd fun fun fun Shadow <Sh@dow.br> - 2017-01-29 11:38 -0200
                  Re: Systemd fun fun fun Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2017-01-29 19:54 -0500
              Re: Systemd fun fun fun William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2017-01-29 07:00 +0000
                Re: Systemd fun fun fun Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-01-29 09:01 +0000
            Re: Systemd fun fun fun Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2017-01-29 15:49 +0000
          Re: Systemd fun fun fun "Chester A. Arthur" <deadprez@whitehouse.com> - 2017-01-28 14:06 -0600
            Re: Systemd fun fun fun senior-student <senior-student@fakemail.net> - 2017-01-28 21:27 +0000

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#8421 — Re: [OT] Systemd fun fun fun

(x-posted: alt.comp.freeware,alt.os.linux.debian,alt.os.linux)

Shadow <Sh@dow.br> in alt.comp.freeware:

> http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2016/09/29/26
> 
> 	Anyone for a tweet ?

Follow up to: alt.os.linux.debian,alt.os.linux

Yrrah

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#8422

On 10/02/2016 03:52 PM, Yrrah wrote:

> Shadow <Sh@dow.br> in alt.comp.freeware:
> 
>> http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2016/09/29/26
>>
>> 	Anyone for a tweet ?

It's kind of expected when you have an application which assumes
everything went well when it failed to get a result.

At least I sleep better knowing my more important systems do not use
systemd.

-- 

 //Aho

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#8423

On 2/10/16 22:41, J.O. Aho wrote:
>
> At least I sleep better knowing my more important systems do not use
> systemd.

Well, a messy but compulsory systemd can create jobs. :)

-- 
   @~@   Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
  / v \  Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
   ^ ^   (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10)  Linux 2.6.39.3
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa

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#8424

On 10/02/2016 04:43 PM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 2/10/16 22:41, J.O. Aho wrote:
>>
>> At least I sleep better knowing my more important systems do not use
>> systemd.
> 
> Well, a messy but compulsory systemd can create jobs. :)
> 

Sure it could, but that's like working for microsoft support :)

-- 

 //Aho

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#8425

On 3/10/16 00:17, J.O. Aho wrote:
>
> Sure it could, but that's like working for microsoft support :)
>

Not limited to Micro$oft... it's called obfuscation! ;)

-- 
   @~@   Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
  / v \  Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
   ^ ^   (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10)  Linux 2.6.39.3
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa

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#8426

(x-posted: alt.comp.freeware,alt.os.linux.debian,alt.os.linux)
> 
> Shadow <Sh@dow.br> in alt.comp.freeware:
> 
> > http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2016/09/29/26
> > 
> > 	Anyone for a tweet ?
> 
> Follow up to: alt.os.linux.debian,alt.os.linux

"Most distributions running systemd have published patches and the
issue has been fixed in the upstream systemd code. While the bug was
quickly fixed, its existence fuelled the fires of the systemd
controversy on many message boards and raised concerns about systemd's
complexity."
https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20161003#news

Yrrah

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#8428 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

>>>>> Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> writes:
>>>>> Shadow <Sh@dow.br> in alt.comp.freeware:

 >> http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2016/09/29/26

 >> Anyone for a tweet ?

 > "Most distributions running systemd have published patches and the
 > issue has been fixed in the upstream systemd code. While the bug was
 > quickly fixed, its existence fuelled the fires of the systemd
 > controversy on many message boards and raised concerns about
 > systemd's complexity."

 > https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20161003#news

	JFTR, the best reading material I've found so far on Systemd are
	these two blog posts dating back to 2014:

  Systemd has 6 service startup notification types, and they're all wrong
  http://ewontfix.com/15

  Broken by design: systemd
  http://ewontfix.com/14

	I think these provide nice summaries on what to expect of this
	specific part of the "modern" GNU/Linux system design.

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  58F8 0F47 53F5 2EB2 F6A5  8916 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

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#8429 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net>:

> JFTR, the best reading material I've found so far on Systemd are
> 	these two blog posts dating back to 2014:
> 
>   Systemd has 6 service startup notification types, and they're all wrong

>   Broken by design: systemd

Let me rephrase: these two blogs confirm your thoughts on the subject.

Yrrah

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#8430 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

>>>>> Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> writes:
>>>>> Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net>:

 >> JFTR, the best reading material I've found so far on Systemd are
 >> these two blog posts dating back to 2014:

 >> Systemd has 6 service startup notification types, and they're all
 >> wrong

 >> Broken by design: systemd

 > Let me rephrase: these two blogs confirm your thoughts on the
 > subject.

	I do not care much about Systemd, and as such, my thoughts on it
	are few and far apart.  The posts confirmed some of the things
	I've suspected back in the day, and otherwise appear to use
	argumentation I find believable.

	I'm not going to pretend I can read others' minds and say that
	these posts will make sense to anyone else.  But I find it a
	possibility still.

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  58F8 0F47 53F5 2EB2 F6A5  8916 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

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#8447 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

>>>>> Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> writes:

[...]

 > I'm not going to pretend I can read others' minds and say that these
 > posts will make sense to anyone else.  But I find it a possibility
 > still.

	With that disclaimer in mind, my list of favorites regarding
	Systemd just got another entry -- this time (a what I believe
	is) a nice summary of the reasons the "Init controversy" isn't
	going to go away anytime soon.

  "[Why] it's quite difficult to do a good job at supporting multiple
  init systems" [quote; no discernible title originally; --IS.]
  by Russ Allbery
  https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/87bn0aackz.fsf@hope.eyrie.org
  news:sbMAF-2mW-21@gated-at.bofh.it (Usenet)
  news:87bn0aackz.fsf@hope.eyrie.org (Gmane)

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  58F8 0F47 53F5 2EB2 F6A5  8916 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

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#8624 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On 10/04/2016 12:40 PM, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>>>>>> Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> writes:

>   Broken by design: systemd
>   http://ewontfix.com/14
>
> 	I think these provide nice summaries on what to expect of this
> 	specific part of the "modern" GNU/Linux system design.
>


I do not like systemd. I've changed over to using Devuan.
The concept of systemd is wrong in my view.

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#8625 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On 2017-01-28, Innocuous <myemail6622@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 10/04/2016 12:40 PM, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>>>>>>> Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> writes:
>
>>   Broken by design: systemd
>>   http://ewontfix.com/14
>>
>> 	I think these provide nice summaries on what to expect of this
>> 	specific part of the "modern" GNU/Linux system design.
>>
>
>
> I do not like systemd. I've changed over to using Devuan.
> The concept of systemd is wrong in my view.
Not sure the concept is wrong. Fast booting is a good idea. The implimentation has problems.

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#8627 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On 01/28/17 19:55, William Unruh wrote:
> On 2017-01-28, Innocuous <myemail6622@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 10/04/2016 12:40 PM, Ivan Shmakov wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> writes:
>>
>>>   Broken by design: systemd
>>>   http://ewontfix.com/14
>>>
>>> 	I think these provide nice summaries on what to expect of this
>>> 	specific part of the "modern" GNU/Linux system design.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I do not like systemd. I've changed over to using Devuan.
>> The concept of systemd is wrong in my view.
> Not sure the concept is wrong. Fast booting is a good idea. The implimentation has problems.

There are other init systems which supports parallel starting of
services without the faults. systemd do not start everything, some
things it just leaves for later, so you may have a flawed system.

-- 

 //Aho

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#8629 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On Sat, 28 Jan 2017 18:55:04 -0000 (UTC)
William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2017-01-28, Innocuous <myemail6622@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On 10/04/2016 12:40 PM, Ivan Shmakov wrote:  
> >>>>>>> Yrrah <Yrrah-acf@acf.invalid> writes:  
> >  
> >>   Broken by design: systemd
> >>   http://ewontfix.com/14
> >>
> >> 	I think these provide nice summaries on what to expect of
> >> this specific part of the "modern" GNU/Linux system design.
> >>  
> >
> >
> > I do not like systemd. I've changed over to using Devuan.
> > The concept of systemd is wrong in my view.  
> Not sure the concept is wrong. Fast booting is a good idea. The
> implimentation has problems.

As was said, parallel booting appeared some time before systemd, in
sid, at least.

Fast booting would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it. Some
months ago, to add insult to injury, grub started adding about a
ten-second timeout ('Press any key..') before loading the initrd, and I
still haven't found how to stop that, other than hovering over it
waiting to hit a key. It ought to be something simple.... 

-- 
Joe

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#8630 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

Joe <joe@jretrading.com> writes:
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>> Not sure the concept is wrong. Fast booting is a good idea. The
>> implimentation has problems.
>
> As was said, parallel booting appeared some time before systemd, in
> sid, at least.

Dependency-based booting (which is the mechanism supporting parallel
booting) was introduced in Debian 6.0 (squeeze), released in 2011.  It
wasn’t just about performance or parallelism, the old system based on
statically configured sequence numbering was hopelessly fragile.

> Fast booting would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it. Some
> months ago, to add insult to injury, grub started adding about a
> ten-second timeout ('Press any key..') before loading the initrd, and I
> still haven't found how to stop that, other than hovering over it
> waiting to hit a key. It ought to be something simple.... 

https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/Simple-configuration.html

-- 
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#8631 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On 2017-01-28 23:13, Joe wrote:
> Fast booting would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it. Some
> months ago, to add insult to injury, grub started adding about a
> ten-second timeout ('Press any key..') before loading the initrd, and I
> still haven't found how to stop that, other than hovering over it
> waiting to hit a key. It ought to be something simple.... 

In openSUSE - check if it is the same in your distro:

/etc/default/grub:

GRUB_TIMEOUT=8

Then run "grub2-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg" to apply.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#8633 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 02:43:05 +0100
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> wrote:

> On 2017-01-28 23:13, Joe wrote:
> > Fast booting would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it. Some
> > months ago, to add insult to injury, grub started adding about a
> > ten-second timeout ('Press any key..') before loading the initrd,
> > and I still haven't found how to stop that, other than hovering
> > over it waiting to hit a key. It ought to be something simple....   
> 
> In openSUSE - check if it is the same in your distro:
> 
> /etc/default/grub:
> 
> GRUB_TIMEOUT=8
> 
> Then run "grub2-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg" to apply.
> 

My grub timeout is on 5 and works as expected.

In recent months, the *next* screen says 'loading ramdisc' or similar,
followed by 'press any key' and sits there for ten seconds or so if I
don't press a key. I haven't found anything anywhere which seems to
refer to this.

-- 
Joe

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#8635 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On 01/29/17 10:01, Joe wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 02:43:05 +0100
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-01-28 23:13, Joe wrote:
>>> Fast booting would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it. Some
>>> months ago, to add insult to injury, grub started adding about a
>>> ten-second timeout ('Press any key..') before loading the initrd,
>>> and I still haven't found how to stop that, other than hovering
>>> over it waiting to hit a key. It ought to be something simple....   
>>
>> In openSUSE - check if it is the same in your distro:
>>
>> /etc/default/grub:
>>
>> GRUB_TIMEOUT=8
>>
>> Then run "grub2-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg" to apply.
>>
> 
> My grub timeout is on 5 and works as expected.
> 
> In recent months, the *next* screen says 'loading ramdisc' or similar,
> followed by 'press any key' and sits there for ten seconds or so if I
> don't press a key. I haven't found anything anywhere which seems to
> refer to this.

This would be in dracut settings, which is the one used in many
distribution to build the initramfs image. Most likely a change in a
script your distro uses or you have by mistake changed.

-- 

 //Aho

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#8638 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 12:40:49 +0100
"J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote:

> On 01/29/17 10:01, Joe wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 02:43:05 +0100
> > "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> wrote:
> >   
> >> On 2017-01-28 23:13, Joe wrote:  
> >>> Fast booting would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it.
> >>> Some months ago, to add insult to injury, grub started adding
> >>> about a ten-second timeout ('Press any key..') before loading the
> >>> initrd, and I still haven't found how to stop that, other than
> >>> hovering over it waiting to hit a key. It ought to be something
> >>> simple....     
> >>
> >> In openSUSE - check if it is the same in your distro:
> >>
> >> /etc/default/grub:
> >>
> >> GRUB_TIMEOUT=8
> >>
> >> Then run "grub2-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg" to apply.
> >>  
> > 
> > My grub timeout is on 5 and works as expected.
> > 
> > In recent months, the *next* screen says 'loading ramdisc' or
> > similar, followed by 'press any key' and sits there for ten seconds
> > or so if I don't press a key. I haven't found anything anywhere
> > which seems to refer to this.  
> 
> This would be in dracut settings, which is the one used in many
> distribution to build the initramfs image. Most likely a change in a
> script your distro uses or you have by mistake changed.
> 

Thatnks for the try, but dracut isn't installed here and
initramfs-tools is used to create the initrd. I can find nothing
in /etc/initramfs-tools referring to a time.

There's no /etc/default entry for initramfs-tools, and the grub entry
contains only its own timeout.

-- 
Joe

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#8639 — Re: Systemd fun fun fun

On 01/29/17 20:07, Joe wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 12:40:49 +0100
> "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 01/29/17 10:01, Joe wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 02:43:05 +0100
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> wrote:
>>>   
>>>> On 2017-01-28 23:13, Joe wrote:  
>>>>> Fast booting would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it.
>>>>> Some months ago, to add insult to injury, grub started adding
>>>>> about a ten-second timeout ('Press any key..') before loading the
>>>>> initrd, and I still haven't found how to stop that, other than
>>>>> hovering over it waiting to hit a key. It ought to be something
>>>>> simple....     
>>>>
>>>> In openSUSE - check if it is the same in your distro:
>>>>
>>>> /etc/default/grub:
>>>>
>>>> GRUB_TIMEOUT=8
>>>>
>>>> Then run "grub2-mkconfig -o /boot/grub2/grub.cfg" to apply.
>>>>  
>>>
>>> My grub timeout is on 5 and works as expected.
>>>
>>> In recent months, the *next* screen says 'loading ramdisc' or
>>> similar, followed by 'press any key' and sits there for ten seconds
>>> or so if I don't press a key. I haven't found anything anywhere
>>> which seems to refer to this.  
>>
>> This would be in dracut settings, which is the one used in many
>> distribution to build the initramfs image. Most likely a change in a
>> script your distro uses or you have by mistake changed.
>>
> 
> Thatnks for the try, but dracut isn't installed here and
> initramfs-tools is used to create the initrd.

Should be possible with that too.

> I can find nothing
> in /etc/initramfs-tools referring to a time.

I would take a look at the script it may build into the initramfs, you
could take the one you have and unpack it and see what's inside, if you
don't seem to find it there then I'm not sure.



> There's no /etc/default entry for initramfs-tools, and the grub entry
> contains only its own timeout.

When reread your original post, you said it was before initrd, which
then should rule out the initramfs file.

Have you looked at the scripts in /etc/grub.d ? those are used to make
the entries in the grub menu.


-- 

 //Aho

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