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Flow of keystroke messages in a UI

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  Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 11:42 +0100
    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Bernhard Schornak <schornak@web.de> - 2015-10-02 20:43 +0200
      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 15:23 +0100
        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Bernhard Schornak <schornak@web.de> - 2015-10-05 17:38 +0200
    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 17:17 -0400
      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 16:36 +0100
        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-04 21:27 -0400
          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:01 +0100
            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-05 21:57 -0400
              Re: halting Adobe Flash videos with Mozilla Firefox, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-26 04:35 -0400
              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 12:40 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-27 15:51 -0500
                  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 12:08 +0000
                    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-03 14:55 -0500
                      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 17:58 +0000
                      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 11:32 +0000
                        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-16 03:29 -0500
                          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 13:44 +0000
                            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-16 12:55 -0500
                              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 19:55 +0000
                                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-18 07:39 -0500
                                  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 22:45 +0000
                                    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-19 22:28 -0500
                                      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 13:27 +0000
                                        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-27 17:20 -0500
                                          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-28 11:03 +0000
                                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-22 17:43 +0000
                                  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-23 13:17 -0500
                                    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 13:42 +0000
                                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 09:14 +0100
                          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 09:56 +0000
                            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-14 09:11 -0500
                              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 15:58 +0000
                                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-15 05:55 -0500
                                  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 15:57 +0000
                                    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-16 05:33 -0500
                                      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-24 06:16 +0000
                                        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-24 18:03 -0500
                                          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 06:25 +0000
                                            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 00:21 -0800
                                              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 08:45 +0000
                                            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-28 20:40 -0500
                                              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 14:49 +0000
                                                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-02 21:50 -0500
                                                  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-03-05 06:09 +0000
                                                    OT politics was Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-05 12:40 +0000
                                                      Re: OT politics was Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-05 20:11 -0500
                                                    Re: OT politics, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-05 20:11 -0500
                                                      Re: OT politics, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-03-17 16:35 +0000
                                                        Re: OT politics, was [Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI] Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-17 21:02 -0400
                                    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-24 20:09 -0500
                                      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 14:55 +0000
                                  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 03:56 -0800
                                    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-17 04:21 -0500
                                      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-24 02:12 -0800
                                        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-24 18:03 -0500
                                          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 02:53 -0800
                                            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-02-28 20:15 -0500
                                              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 20:37 -0700
                                                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-03-28 18:23 -0400
                                          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Alexei A. Frounze" <alexfrunews@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 21:10 -0700
                      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 14:34 +0000
                        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 15:10 +0000
          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:39 +0100
    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-03 12:48 +0200
      Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 17:00 +0100
        Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-04 23:32 +0200
          Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 14:05 +0100
            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 15:17 +0100
              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-06 10:35 +0200
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 16:28 +0100
                  Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-06 19:14 +0200
                    Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 20:02 +0100
            Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-10-06 10:46 +0200
              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-07 01:16 -0400
              Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 12:50 +0000
                Re: Flow of keystroke messages in a UI "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2015-12-27 23:22 +0100

Page 4 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4]

#9315

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-8, Rod Pemberton wrote:
...
> According to recent articles, there has been a tremendous shift
> to government provided college funding in the U.S..  So, the
> psychological "cost" or barrier of obtaining funds for a chance
> at a "better" life or advantageous financial opportunity is
> very minimal.  It's the reality, paying back government loans,
> where the younger generation, "millenials", are crying foul.
> Past generations were partially subsidized by the savings of
> their "blue collar" parents, but with a much smaller working
> class, most of these young adults have to pay off these loans
> entirely by themselves.  They don't like that.  These loans
> are too easy for them to get.  The universities are generating
> far too many degrees because of easy government financing.

Some data shows, however, that disproportionally(?) more money
goes into the pockets of administrators (in both absolute figures
per pocket and pocket count) and not those who do the teaching.

Alex

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#9085

On 03/01/2016 19:55, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 12:08:31 +0000
> James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> wrote:

[OT]

...

>> 3) Selling my old Aga cooker. When it
>> was dismantled it resulted in large quantities of dust being spread
>> around the house and getting onto floors, surfaces and into clothes,
>> towels etc. Some of it is still invisibly present in the air despite
>> lots of cleaning. I cannot confirm without a specialist's analysis
>> but it is worrying as the dust likely contains asbestos.

I've had some really good news. I sent off a vermiculite sample for 
analysis and the lab has reported it as being asbestos free. If that is 
representative of the rest of the mass then I've had a big reprieve and 
feel like a big weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

According to US govt reports, 80% of the world's supply of vermiculite 
may have come from a W. R. Grace company mine in Libby, Montana where 
asbestos was found so there seemed to be an 80% chance of my house being 
filled with asbestos dust. If I was in the 20% then I've been very 
fortunate.

> I've seen those range top and oven combinations on TV,
> but I'm not sure if they're available in the U.S.  If
> Wikipedia is correct, they're a major source of wasteful
> energy consumption in the E.U., and probably a source
> of unnecessary green house gas emissions too.  Although,
> some of them, the oldest, I'm guessing, are valuable as
> collectors items, or used in home restorations for the
> wealthy.

They are from a bygone era but some people still seek them out. Here are 
some pictures of the one I sold.

   https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/d/1143684876

James

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#9087

On 15/01/2016 14:34, James Harris wrote:

> [OT]

...

> According to US govt reports, 80% of the world's supply of vermiculite
> may have come from a W. R. Grace company mine in Libby, Montana where
> asbestos was found

Here's the link for that. The Eighty percent reference is at the end of 
the page.

   http://www.epa.gov/region8/background-libby-asbestos-site

James

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#8875

On 05/10/2015 02:27, Rod Pemberton wrote:

...

> widget loses focus to it's text field when it's text field is activated.

s/'//g

Or, more long-winded but clearer,

s/it's/its/g

Surprisingly, there's even a web site for it

   http://www.its-not-its.info/

:-)

James

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#8865

James Harris asked:

> Any of you guys come up with a good way to handle keystrokes in a UI 
> when multiple elements of that UI may be 'interested' in receiving them? 

IMO only one instance at a time can be interested in keystrokes. 

> If you have not come up with your own idea are you aware of any good 
> standards or recommendations?

it depends on application type,

Games may use all keys/combinations and assign a few for system 
  interactions like save, quit, minimise, pause.   
Editors of any kind may have several instances on screen.
  here it would be wise to not use too different key functions 
  because this leads to confusion.

The problem with ALT- or CTRL-key combinations used as global system 
functions can be easy avoided by not using them.

My solution is a straight forward (some see it backwards) hierarchy:
the system is of course the first who see a key but pass it on to the
current instance in focus except for the terminate key (A.C.F12).

Every User-Instance can have its own keymap with all keys assigned 
except ALT-CTRL-F12, but must have at least one key assigned to QUIT 
or LAYDN (aka minimise).

But if such an instance use INPUT-fields then these use the predefined 
key-masks and branchtables. 

The system got four such key-linkers: 
 numeric inputs (hex,dec,eng,fix,float) beep on all non-num keys.
 text input (single line w/o cntls)
 lists, tables and charts 
 exceptions and debug share one set

They all use the same controls for navigation and input cursor 
[TAB,BTAB,BS,HOME,INS,DEL,ENTER]
And a user designed text editor could use the same but is free 
to work totally different.
__
wolfgang

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#8868

On 03/10/2015 11:48, wolfgang kern wrote:
>
> James Harris asked:
>
>> Any of you guys come up with a good way to handle keystrokes in a UI
>> when multiple elements of that UI may be 'interested' in receiving them?
>
> IMO only one instance at a time can be interested in keystrokes.

Think about a simple hierarchy:

   desktop
   window
   widget

The latter ones exist within the earlier ones, i.e. the widget is in a 
window and the window is in a desktop. The widget may have focus but it 
does not want to see all key combinations; instead, the elements above 
it may want to see those keystrokes.

So the question is: how should keystroke info be directed to the right 
place?

>> If you have not come up with your own idea are you aware of any good
>> standards or recommendations?
>
> it depends on application type,
>
> Games may use all keys/combinations and assign a few for system
>   interactions like save, quit, minimise, pause. Editors of any kind may
> have several instances on screen.
>   here it would be wise to not use too different key functions  because
> this leads to confusion.

You mean a game might want to handle Alt+F or Alt+Tab itself? More to 
the point, if it wants to do that should it be allowed to when the UI 
normally handles those...?

> The problem with ALT- or CTRL-key combinations used as global system
> functions can be easy avoided by not using them.
>
> My solution is a straight forward (some see it backwards) hierarchy:
> the system is of course the first who see a key but pass it on to the
> current instance in focus except for the terminate key (A.C.F12).
>
> Every User-Instance can have its own keymap with all keys assigned
> except ALT-CTRL-F12, but must have at least one key assigned to QUIT or
> LAYDN (aka minimise).

Do you allow keystrokes to do things like:

* pull down a menu

* copy to the clipboard

* switch between open windows

* pop up a UI menu?

Maybe you reserve such things for mouse control only but if you allow 
keystroke combinations to do those things how do you control which 
keystrokes go to which part of the user interface, i.e. to desktop, 
window or widget?

James

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#8869

 James Harris asked:

>>> Any of you guys come up with a good way to handle keystrokes in a UI
>>> when multiple elements of that UI may be 'interested' in receiving them?
>>
>> IMO only one instance at a time can be interested in keystrokes.

> Think about a simple hierarchy:

>   desktop
>   window
>   widget

> The latter ones exist within the earlier ones, i.e. the widget is in a 
> window and the window is in a desktop. The widget may have focus but it 
> does not want to see all key combinations; instead, the elements above it 
> may want to see those keystrokes.

this is how windoze/loonix handle it, I have this different.

> So the question is: how should keystroke info be directed to the right 
> place?

As I already said: in my world, the element in focus decide which keys
does what until the focus changes ie: [FNxx,crsr,enter,esc,tab] (this
navigation keys depend on the type of the element and are defined for
this element by either user demand or my own default standard).

>>> If you have not come up with your own idea are you aware of any good
>>> standards or recommendations?

>> it depends on application type,

>> Games may use all keys/combinations and assign a few for system
>>   interactions like save, quit, minimise, pause. Editors of any kind may
>> have several instances on screen.
>>   here it would be wise to not use too different key functions  because
>> this leads to confusion.

> You mean a game might want to handle Alt+F or Alt+Tab itself?

Why not ?  even windoze games do it.
 they could define SHIFT-ALT-Q instead of alt-Tab ...

> More to the point, if it wants to do that should it be allowed to when the 
> UI normally handles those...?

Normally ? :) for windoze and loonix, but not for me !

>> The problem with ALT- or CTRL-key combinations used as global system
>> functions can be easy avoided by not using them.

>> My solution is a straight forward (some see it backwards) hierarchy:
>> the system is of course the first who see a key but pass it on to the
>> current instance in focus except for the terminate key (A.C.F12).

>> Every User-Instance can have its own keymap with all keys assigned
>> except ALT-CTRL-F12, but must have at least one key assigned to QUIT or 
>> LAYDN (aka minimise).

> Do you allow keystrokes to do things like:
>
> * pull down a menu
>
> * copy to the clipboard
>
> * switch between open windows
>
> * pop up a UI menu?

This are usually mouse-over/-click functions.
All things that can be done with the mouse are also possible with
cursor-keys and enter, but I assign Function keys for such.

> Maybe you reserve such things for mouse control only but if you allow 
> keystroke combinations to do those things how do you control which 
> keystrokes go to which part of the user interface, i.e. to desktop, window 
> or widget?

again, the element in focus decide on which keys it releases focus
and then tell mummy and deady that it's ready or done.

__
wolfgang

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#8871

On 04/10/2015 22:32, wolfgang kern wrote:
>
> James Harris asked:
>
>>>> Any of you guys come up with a good way to handle keystrokes in a UI
>>>> when multiple elements of that UI may be 'interested' in receiving
>>>> them?
>>>
>>> IMO only one instance at a time can be interested in keystrokes.
>
>> Think about a simple hierarchy:
>
>>   desktop
>>   window
>>   widget
>
>> The latter ones exist within the earlier ones, i.e. the widget is in a
>> window and the window is in a desktop. The widget may have focus but
>> it does not want to see all key combinations; instead, the elements
>> above it may want to see those keystrokes.
>
> this is how windoze/loonix handle it, I have this different.

But you still have a hierarchy of some sort, AIUI. I don't understand 
your UI in detail but you have spoken of elements having focus and I 
assume you allow different application windows to exist at the same time.

I gather that your OS is proprietary and you want to keep the code 
private but have you ever posted screenshots or other documentation on a 
website etc? It would be interesting to see what it looks like.

...

>>>> If you have not come up with your own idea are you aware of any good
>>>> standards or recommendations?
>
>>> it depends on application type,
>
>>> Games may use all keys/combinations and assign a few for system
>>>   interactions like save, quit, minimise, pause. Editors of any kind may
>>> have several instances on screen.
>>>   here it would be wise to not use too different key functions  because
>>> this leads to confusion.
>
>> You mean a game might want to handle Alt+F or Alt+Tab itself?
>
> Why not ?

Because:

* That could require the user to learn different keystrokes to control 
the UI depending on which window had focus.

* The designer of a game may not think about the wider needs of the 
user. The same is true of someone designing a widget or an app. In fact, 
even experienced developers already do this, possibly because the 
developers themselves normally use a mouse; they don't think about users 
who navigate the UI using the keyboard.

* If each window had different controls then the whole UI would behave 
inconsistently and require the user to learn different ways to do 
standard things. Some people would find that stressful. Some would find 
it annoying. Others would give up on the UI and use something else!

>  even windoze games do it.
> they could define SHIFT-ALT-Q instead of alt-Tab ...

It would seem to me to be better for the UI to reserve a certain set of 
keystrokes to itself and, perhaps, to reserve a different set for the 
contents of windows so that users have a consistent set of controls to use.

...

>> Do you allow keystrokes to do things like:
>>
>> * pull down a menu
>>
>> * copy to the clipboard
>>
>> * switch between open windows
>>
>> * pop up a UI menu?
>
> This are usually mouse-over/-click functions.
> All things that can be done with the mouse are also possible with
> cursor-keys and enter, but I assign Function keys for such.

So how do you allow the things above to be done by the keyboard? I 
understood from your previous description that only Alt+Control+F12 was 
reserved for your UI.

>> Maybe you reserve such things for mouse control only but if you allow
>> keystroke combinations to do those things how do you control which
>> keystrokes go to which part of the user interface, i.e. to desktop,
>> window or widget?
>
> again, the element in focus decide on which keys it releases focus
> and then tell mummy and deady that it's ready or done.

Unfortunately, that apparently allows such elements to confuse a user 
who is used to using the keyboard to navigate between windows or to 
drive the UI.

James

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#8874

On 05/10/2015 14:05, James Harris wrote:

...

> I gather that your OS is proprietary and you want to keep the code
> private but have you ever posted screenshots or other documentation on a
> website etc? It would be interesting to see what it looks like.

I think I may have asked you this before. If you did post such a link 
sorry I don't remember it.

James

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#8881

James Harris wrote:

>> I gather that your OS is proprietary and you want to keep the code
>> private but have you ever posted screenshots or other documentation on a
>> website etc? It would be interesting to see what it looks like.
 
> I think I may have asked you this before. If you did post such a link 
> sorry I don't remember it.
 
I remember your question and I tried to convert a copy my screen into 
a windoze-bmp. But it looked upside down and the colours became almost 
invisible. I didn't study how M$ stores and interprete the palette-info.

Because you asked twice yet, I took a few pictures with my mobile-phone.
I can send it to you if you like. Is your news-email a valid one?
__
wolfgang

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#8883

On 06/10/2015 09:35, wolfgang kern wrote:
>
> James Harris wrote:
>
>>> I gather that your OS is proprietary and you want to keep the code
>>> private but have you ever posted screenshots or other documentation on a
>>> website etc? It would be interesting to see what it looks like.
>
>> I think I may have asked you this before. If you did post such a link
>> sorry I don't remember it.
>
> I remember your question and I tried to convert a copy my screen into a
> windoze-bmp. But it looked upside down and the colours became almost
> invisible. I didn't study how M$ stores and interprete the palette-info.
>
> Because you asked twice yet, I took a few pictures with my mobile-phone.
> I can send it to you if you like. Is your news-email a valid one?

Yes, the email address is valid.

James

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#8884

James Harris wrote:

>>>> I gather that your OS is proprietary and you want to keep the code
>>>> private but have you ever posted screenshots or other documentation
>>>> on a website etc? It would be interesting to see what it looks like.

>>> I think I may have asked you this before. If you did post such a link
>>> sorry I don't remember it.

>> I remember your question and I tried to convert a copy my screen into a
>> windoze-bmp. But it looked upside down and the colours became almost
>> invisible. I didn't study how M$ stores and interprete the palette-info.

>> Because you asked twice yet, I took a few pictures with my mobile-phone.
>> I can send it to you if you like. Is your news-email a valid one?
 
> Yes, the email address is valid.
 
already mailed, hope it arived well.
but it was an awful slow connection and took several minutes for 1.6MB.

__
wolfgang

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#8885

On 06/10/2015 18:14, wolfgang kern wrote:

...

> already mailed, hope it arived well.
> but it was an awful slow connection and took several minutes for 1.6MB.

Thanks. To my surprise I could save it from email direct to Google Drive 
on the web where it later (and quickly) was also copied to my PC.

James

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#8882

James Harris wrote:

...
>>>> IMO only one instance at a time can be interested in keystrokes.
>>> Think about a simple hierarchy:
>>>   desktop
>>>   window
>>>   widget
>>> The latter ones exist within the earlier ones, i.e. the widget is in a
>>> window and the window is in a desktop. The widget may have focus but
>>> it does not want to see all key combinations; instead, the elements
>>> above it may want to see those keystrokes.

>> this is how windoze/loonix handle it, I have this different.

> But you still have a hierarchy of some sort, AIUI. I don't understand
> your UI in detail but you have spoken of elements having focus and I
> assume you allow different application windows to exist at the same time.

yes, several applications can be held in memory, but there is only one
function which writes to the screen. I call it: "what's on screen".

> I gather that your OS is proprietary and you want to keep the code
> private but have you ever posted screenshots or other documentation
> on a website etc? It would be interesting to see what it looks like.

...
>>>> Games may use all keys/combinations and assign a few for system
>>>> interactions like save, quit, minimise, pause. Editors of any kind
>>>> may have several instances on screen.
>>>> here it would be wise to not use too different key functions  because
>>>> this leads to confusion.

>>> You mean a game might want to handle Alt+F or Alt+Tab itself?

I don't know about ALT-F. What it's supposed to do ?

>> Why not ?
> Because:
>
> * That could require the user to learn different keystrokes to control
> the UI depending on which window had focus.

yeah, thats why I said:
"it would be wise to not use too different key functions"

> * The designer of a game may not think about the wider needs of the user.
> The same is true of someone designing a widget or an app. In fact, even
> experienced developers already do this, possibly because the developers
> themselves normally use a mouse; they don't think about users who navigate
> the UI using the keyboard.

that's true.

> * If each window had different controls then the whole UI would behave
> inconsistently and require the user to learn different ways to do standard
> things. Some people would find that stressful. Some would find it
> annoying. Others would give up on the UI and use something else!

You mean the 'oh so common' windoze behaviour is standard ?
my logic-based way seem to be better accepted by users ...
the user could decide to use whatsoever but I recommed my standard.

ie:[tab]
* switch between two open directory-lists
* move focus to next item in a multy-input panel
* switch between HEX and ASCII in all hexedit-tools
* moves the edit cursor to next defined tabstop in textedit
* inserts 0x09 in the string-editor
* toggles colour-box visible bit in pixeledit

so you see several meanings of TAB, but I never heard a complain
that this is confusing.
I could repeat such lists for all 13 cursor-keys.
their meaning comes together with their use on element types.

>>  even windoze games do it.
>> they could define SHIFT-ALT-Q instead of alt-Tab ...

> It would seem to me to be better for the UI to reserve a certain set of
> keystrokes to itself and, perhaps, to reserve a different set for the
> contents of windows so that users have a consistent set of controls to
> use.

Sure, do you remember old Norton-Commander or PowerBasic and others ?
they show a function-key shortcut at the bottom line, and this
may change whenever the user selects something.
Me too use and recommend to use F1..F12 (also with shift/alt/ctl).

>>> Do you allow keystrokes to do things like:
>>> * pull down a menu
>>> * copy to the clipboard
>>> * switch between open windows
>>> * pop up a UI menu?

>> This are usually mouse-over/-click functions.
>> All things that can be done with the mouse are also possible with
>> cursor-keys and enter, but I assign Function keys for such.

> So how do you allow the things above to be done by the keyboard? I
> understood from your previous description that only Alt+Control+F12
> was reserved for your UI.

Yes, only ALT-CTRL-F12 can't be overridden by user.
My standard is:
F1  HELP
F2  SAVE/write/store/toggle...
F3  LOAD/open/get/toggle...
F4  EDIT/rename/debug/...
F5  COPY/Options/...
F6  MENU/...
F7  Search/...
F8  SORT/...
F9  MARK/...
F10 QUIT
F11 LAYDN
F12 ***

>>> Maybe you reserve such things for mouse control only but if you allow
>>> keystroke combinations to do those things how do you control which
>>> keystrokes go to which part of the user interface, i.e. to desktop,
>>> window or widget?

>> again, the element in focus decide on which keys it releases focus
>> and then tell mummy and deady that it's ready or done.

> Unfortunately, that apparently allows such elements to confuse a user who
> is used to using the keyboard to navigate between windows or to drive the
> UI.

It's easy to confuse the poor user...,
windoze with this weird ALT-key behaviour is an excellent example.
So I let the user create his own keymap for everything if my way
doesn't fit his sense of logic.
__
wolfgang

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#8886

On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 04:46:19 -0400, wolfgang kern <nowhere@never.at> wrote:

> James Harris wrote:

>>>> You mean a game might want to handle Alt+F or Alt+Tab itself?
>
> I don't know about ALT-F. What it's supposed to do ?

In "windoze" and "loonix" GUIs, the ALT-F key sequence
causes the far left menu of a GUI app, called "File",
to drop down and display file operations, such as open,
save, save as, print, exit, etc.  Usually, "windoze" uses
the first letter of the menu name with ALT to activate
the drop-down menu.

> You mean the 'oh so common' windoze behaviour is standard ?

It is now, since "loonix" adopted "windoze" behavior ...

> Yes, only ALT-CTRL-F12 can't be overridden by user.
> My standard is:
> F1  HELP
> F2  SAVE/write/store/toggle...
> F3  LOAD/open/get/toggle...
> F4  EDIT/rename/debug/...
> F5  COPY/Options/...
> F6  MENU/...
> F7  Search/...
> F8  SORT/...
> F9  MARK/...
> F10 QUIT
> F11 LAYDN
> F12 ***

F2 & F3 file operations would be on the ALT-F File menu in
"loonix" and "windoze".

You have way too many F keys in use ...   ;-)
I'm good with only one of them doing anything.

> It's easy to confuse the poor user...,
> windoze with this weird ALT-key behaviour is an excellent example.
> So I let the user create his own keymap for everything if my way
> doesn't fit his sense of logic.

Many of these "standard" key sequences came from the Apple MacIntosh
which M$ copied into "windoze".  I.e., Ctrl-C, Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V, for
cut, copy, and paste, respectively.  Others could noe be considered
standard, such as Alt-F for file, F3 for repeat command line, etc.

Some cut, copy, paste and clipboard history via Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste


Rod Pemberton


-- 
Just how many texting and calendar apps does humanity need?
Just how many food articles from neurotic millenials do we need?

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#9045

On 06/10/2015 09:46, wolfgang kern wrote:
>
> James Harris wrote:

...

> I don't know about ALT-F. What it's supposed to do ?

I see Rod already answered that one.

...

>> * If each window had different controls then the whole UI would behave
>> inconsistently and require the user to learn different ways to do
>> standard
>> things. Some people would find that stressful. Some would find it
>> annoying. Others would give up on the UI and use something else!
>
> You mean the 'oh so common' windoze behaviour is standard ?

No, I meant that any UI has its own ways of doing things and that it is 
best that an app does not override the actions that the user expects to 
control the UI.

For example, on Windows and most Unix GUIs Alt+Tab switches between open 
apps. It would be annoying to a user if one app could capture Alt+Tab 
for its own purposes.

James

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#9051

 James Harris replied to my post from Oct,6.:
 
>>> * If each window had different controls then the whole UI would behave
>>> inconsistently and require the user to learn different ways to do
>>> standard
>>> things. Some people would find that stressful. Some would find it
>>> annoying. Others would give up on the UI and use something else!

>> You mean the 'oh so common' windoze behaviour is standard ?
 
> No, I meant that any UI has its own ways of doing things and that it is 
> best that an app does not override the actions that the user expects to 
> control the UI.

Yes, but...
 
> For example, on Windows and most Unix GUIs Alt+Tab switches between open 
> apps. It would be annoying to a user if one app could capture Alt+Tab 
> for its own purposes.
 
I already said in my post that 'the user' can decide to alter the 
keymaps of applications. And for the whole UI too. Every accepted 
user can have his own key-maps, similar to what many games allow. 

btw: nothing assigned to Alt_Tab in my standard, so it can be used 
for whatsoever the user like.
__
wolfgang

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