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A FAT32 bus mouse

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  A FAT32 bus mouse "Benjamin David Lunt" <zfysz@fysnet.net> - 2016-04-01 11:57 -0700
    Re: A FAT32 bus mouse "wolfgang kern" <nowhere@never.at> - 2016-04-01 21:41 +0200
    Re: A FAT32 bus mouse Bernhard Schornak <schornak@web.de> - 2016-04-01 23:15 +0200
    Re: A FAT32 bus mouse Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-04-01 21:23 -0400
      Re: A FAT32 bus mouse "Mike Gonta" <mikegonta@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 08:50 -0400
        Re: A FAT32 bus mouse James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 14:19 +0100

#9358 — A FAT32 bus mouse

Hi guys,

I have caught a little of the conversation of Mike's
Virtual FAT32 concept, though I have not commented much
on the reason why he has made it, though I have an
idea.  (and please forgive me of the subject line)

However, without commenting any more on it, I would
like to bring something else to the table and hopefully
you can get my idea of why he introduced the Virtual FAT32
concept.

As you know, and with everyone else here, I enjoy
the process of creating an operating system and the
hardware drivers that go along with it.  The process
of creating a driver for a piece of hardware is my
most enjoyable part.

I also enjoy writing the books that go along with it,
hence my OS Series of books.  As with the next in
line to be published, Vol 4 is all about input devices.

As I was deciding what to include in it, and going through
all of my notes, I dug up three old Bus Mouse cards.
Two of them are standard Bus Mouse cards and one is
an MS InPort Bus Mouse card.

I had these stored away in my shop and actually reached
over and grabbed the air nozzle and blew the dust off
of them.  People are selling these cards online as
vintage hardware for $60 (USD) each.

I just had to plug them in and see if I could get them
to work.

As you know, there is very little documentation left
around and the Linux code was sparse at that. However,
after a few days work, I figured out how to get them
going, despite the erroneous Linux code.

The standard bus mouse has an advantage over the InPort,
while the InPort has an advantage over the standard
card.

With help from a Bochs Maintainer, I recently updated
the Bochs Emulator to support both protocols.

It was quite interesting and enjoyable to plug these
cards in, and through trial and error, see what output
I could get from the registers as I would set up certain
conditions to see what the results were.

Yes, you are probably asking, "why the heck would Ben
ever want to include the Bus Mouse in his code, let alone
in one of his books?"  :-)

As you know, I don't write the books for profit, though
the slight income each month does make it just that more
enjoyable.  I write the books because I enjoy it and I
hope that others will learn from it.

I also have you guys to thank for that.  It is this group
that has kept me on my toes, kept me interested in this
hobby of mine.

Bernhard, I am sure I have asked you this before, but
how do you get your posts to all be justified? (the text,
not the content.) :-)

I mean, do you go through it by hand and add or subtract?
Do you have a routine you have created to do it?  I see
that the width is different each time, so I am sure the
count of chars per line has to do with it.  It just amazes
me each time I see it.  No extra spaces, no extra or
obvious punctuation.  Nice work.

Anyway, I think I know why Mike has created the Virtual
FAT32 concept and I may go investigate it a bit more.
He is just like me, and probably the rest of us, messed
up beyond words, but enjoy the hobbies we have. :-)

Again, I probably say it too much, but I thank those
who still post here and each of you for your support
in my hobby, my books.  Vol. 4 is coming along well,
and I should have it and Vol. 6 done within the next
months to come. Since you don't mind, and I know you
don't, I will leave the URL of the book series below
for those that would like to learn more of the hobby
we enjoy.

Thanks,
Ben

P.S. That last paragraph was for you Bernhard. :-)

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Forever Young Software
http://www.fysnet.net/index.htm
http://www.fysnet.net/osdesign_book_series.htm
To reply by email, please remove the zzzzzz's

Batteries not included, some Assembly required.

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#9359

Ben asked Bernhard aside with other tasks:

> I have caught a little of the conversation of Mike's
> Virtual FAT32 concept, though I have not commented much
> on the reason why he has made it, though I have an
> idea.  (and please forgive me of the subject line)

Me too would ask where are the benefits of such an aproach.  
 
[about bus mouse...]
> I just had to plug them in and see if I could get them
> to work.

Arent this museum parts already dead since long ?
...
 
> Yes, you are probably asking, "why the heck would Ben
> ever want to include the Bus Mouse in his code, let alone
> in one of his books?"  :-)

History could teach hardware developers things to avoid :)
  
> Bernhard, I am sure I have asked you this before, but
> how do you get your posts to all be justified? (the text,
> not the content.) :-)

I asked same and now know this is just his personal spleen :)
 
> Anyway, I think I know why Mike has created the Virtual
> FAT32 concept and I may go investigate it a bit more.
> He is just like me, and probably the rest of us, messed
> up beyond words, but enjoy the hobbies we have. :-)

I dont see any advantage in using FAT for system containers, I 
even cant see a requirement for having a filesystem for system 
files which are just 'dedicated LBA-sectors' in my world.

> Again, I probably say it too much, but I thank those
> who still post here and each of you for your support
> in my hobby, my books.  ...

I bougth a few of your books, no need to apologize or thanks :)  

Methink we regular posters are here to help each other.
I learned a lot during the last twenty years here, and sometimes 
there may be a chanche to help newbies to give something back.

__
wolfgang 

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#9360

Benjamin David Lunt wrote:


> Hi guys,


Hi, Ben!


<snip>

> Bernhard, I am sure I have asked you this before, but
> how do you get your posts to all be justified? (the text,
> not the content.) :-)


I cant remember you ever asked (and my memory is not that
far away from total recall).


> I mean, do you go through it by hand and add or subtract?


It is more about finding the matching words. It is a good
way to "spice" a language with extended vocabulary, or to
learn a "foreign" language (like I still learn English).


> Do you have a routine you have created to do it?  I see
> that the width is different each time, so I am sure the
> count of chars per line has to do with it.  It just amazes
> me each time I see it.  No extra spaces, no extra or
> obvious punctuation.  Nice work.


I am a "partial autist", and block aligned text is faster
to read and evaluate for me than the common right aligned
text (in *.DOCuments with variable width font I generally
chose "block align" for formatting). Hence, I always for-
matted text documents by using matching words or cheating
with fillers like *fat letters*, "quotation marks", and a
few other tricks. You may call it a "tick" or - in a more
scientific sense - "Savant Syndrom". (This is not limited
to retarded people, only. )


> Anyway, I think I know why Mike has created the Virtual
> FAT32 concept and I may go investigate it a bit more.
> He is just like me, and probably the rest of us, messed
> up beyond words, but enjoy the hobbies we have. :-)
>
> Again, I probably say it too much, but I thank those
> who still post here and each of you for your support
> in my hobby, my books.  Vol. 4 is coming along well,
> and I should have it and Vol. 6 done within the next
> months to come. Since you don't mind, and I know you
> don't, I will leave the URL of the book series below
> for those that would like to learn more of the hobby
> we enjoy.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> P.S. That last paragraph was for you Bernhard. :-)


Obviously. Too much honour, anyway... ;)

Bernhard

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#9370

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:57:44 -0700
"Benjamin David Lunt" <zfysz@fysnet.net> wrote:

> Yes, you are probably asking, "why the heck would Ben
> ever want to include the Bus Mouse in his code, let alone
> in one of his books?"  :-)

Bingo!  There is no real point in anything pre-PS/2 port.

Although, I do have a mouse card (RS-232C) in the old 233Mhz.
This was a PC standard pre-PS/2 port.  But, you're not talking
about that are you?  You're talking about the original M$
bus mouse here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_mouse

(Um, yeah, that's even more questionable Ben ... ;-)

> Bernhard, I am sure I have asked you this before, but
> how do you get your posts to all be justified? (the text,
> not the content.) :-)

He-he, I didn't notice that.  I see it now though.  He
could get free-lance work at any online newspaper.

> Anyway, I think I know why Mike has created the Virtual
> FAT32 concept and I may go investigate it a bit more.
> He is just like me, and probably the rest of us, messed
> up beyond words, but enjoy the hobbies we have. :-)

My guess is that it pairs with his SudoBIOS extender and goes
with the 16-bit IO.SYS or other device driver code from MS-DOS
v7.10 (Windows 98/SE) that he is using.  Good guess? ...  E.g.,
perhaps he is shoving the 32-bit layer back one more level.

Mike can be rather terse at times.  So, it's not always
obvious to me what he is getting at.  Sorry Mike.  I'd
rather have a description of where I could or why I
should use his stuff than all the technical details up
front, but we still need that stuff after the fact.


Rod Pemberton

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#9386

Rod Pemberton" wrote:
> "Benjamin David Lunt" wrote:

>> Anyway, I think I know why Mike has created the Virtual
>> FAT32 concept and I may go investigate it a bit more.
>> He is just like me, and probably the rest of us, messed
>> up beyond words, but enjoy the hobbies we have. :-)
>
> My guess is that it pairs with his SudoBIOS extender

My proof-of-concept BootStrap32 boot loader (which of
course uses SudoBIOS) follows the AOD Virtual Partition
Specification and Protocol.

Like other boot loaders BootStrap32 uses "BIOS extension"
to load the executable file. This, however is where the
similarity ends.

Unlike the other loaders, the loaded file also has full
access to the PM32 SudoBIOS (which itself is written in C
and uses a low level "C" interface to access the RM16
native motherboard BIOS), a well as full access to same
low level access that SudoBIOS uses and requires no asm
(inline or otherwise) to do so. SudoBIOS is a high level
subset of the BIOS. There are also two similar high/low
level interfaces for asm. It might seem a bit funny that
the low level asm interface which provides full access the
RM16 native motherboard BIOS does not use the "int"
instruction but rather stack based parameter passing even
though it is written in asm and not C. Asm code uses the
"int" to access SudoBIOS. Asm code can also use the
SudoBIOS "C" stack based parameter passing interface.

The other difference is that Bootstrap32 does only two
things. In addition to loading the file it updates the BIOS
Parameter Block - Drive ID field with the actual BIOS
return "DL" value. Everything else, such as a memory map or
a video mode change etc. can easily be obtained (with the
use of SudoBIOS) by the loaded file itself.

> and goes with the 16-bit IO.SYS or other device driver
> code from MS-DOS v7.10 (Windows 98/SE) that he is using.

That was just a silly idea that I have long since
abandoned.

> Good guess? ...  E.g., perhaps he is shoving the 32-bit
> layer back one more level.

Close.
Currently I have no plans to rewrite the BIOS (or for that
matter hardware drivers) in PM32 - extending the RM16 BIOS
even with it shortcomings (actual or perceived) works
perfectly fine for me. I also have no plans to "extend"
anything other than the RM16 BIOS.

> Mike can be rather terse at times.  So, it's not always
> obvious to me what he is getting at.  Sorry Mike.  I'd
> rather have a description of where I could or why I
> should use his stuff than all the technical details up
> front, but we still need that stuff after the fact.

That's a very good suggestion, especially with all the
confusion surrounding the Virtual Partition. A much better
"presentation" will be forthcoming soon in the promised
AOD Virtual Partition Specification and Protocol.


Mike Gonta
look and see - many look but few see

http://mikegonta.com
http://tawk.to/mikegonta 

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#9396

On 03/04/2016 13:50, Mike Gonta wrote:
> Rod Pemberton" wrote:

...

>> Mike can be rather terse at times.  So, it's not always
>> obvious to me what he is getting at.  Sorry Mike.  I'd
>> rather have a description of where I could or why I
>> should use his stuff than all the technical details up
>> front, but we still need that stuff after the fact.
>
> That's a very good suggestion, especially with all the
> confusion surrounding the Virtual Partition. A much better
> "presentation" will be forthcoming soon in the promised
> AOD Virtual Partition Specification and Protocol.

Agreed. ISTM Wikipedia has a good format: an opening section which 
explains the very basics of the topic, followed by the details. I find 
the opening Wikipedia section is normally ideal for a term, T, where I 
as a reader have never heard of T before and want to know what it means.

OT but the big Wikipedia area which, ISTM, does not use that approach is 
chemistry. For example, here is the opening paragraph about Hydrogen:

"Hydrogen is a chemical element with chemical symbol H and atomic number 
1. With an atomic weight of 1.00794 u, hydrogen is the lightest element 
on the periodic table. Its monatomic form (H) is the most abundant 
chemical substance in the Universe, constituting roughly 75% of all 
baryonic mass.[9][note 1] Non-remnant stars are mainly composed of 
hydrogen in the plasma state. The most common isotope of hydrogen, 
termed protium (name rarely used, symbol 1H), has one proton and no 
neutrons."

That includes comments which are way too specific.

That was an aside. As I say, much of Wikipedia starts with a good intro 
to the topic being described.

-- 
James Harris

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