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Groups > alt.internet.wireless > #18928 > unrolled thread

Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy

Started byMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
First post2026-09-03 16:30 +0930
Last post2026-09-08 22:30 +0400
Articles 20 on this page of 123 — 18 participants

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Contents

  Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-03 16:30 +0930
    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 08:09 +0000
      Apple tracking of WLAN APs (was: Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-03 11:19 +0100
        Re: Apple tracking of WLAN APs (was: Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy) Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 22:58 +0000
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-04 02:27 +0930
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 20:46 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 06:15 +0600
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 00:34 +0000
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:05 +0600
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 01:47 +0000
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:00 -0300
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 17:49 +0000
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 16:14 -0300
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-06 00:06 +0000
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 13:39 +0200
                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-06 15:37 +0000
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:23 +0200
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 02:16 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:42 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:06 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:28 +0200
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 06:38 +0300
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 09:48 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 22:36 +0400
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 21:46 +0200
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 15:28 -0700
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-08 00:46 +0100
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 06:58 +0300
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 07:39 +0000
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 08:58 +0200
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "....winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 02:01 -0400
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2026-09-07 01:47 -0500
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-07 10:18 +0000
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:30 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:22 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 22:28 +0000
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 01:50 +0200
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:29 +0300
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:22 +0300
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-08 10:44 +0000
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 13:27 +0000
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-08 09:47 -0600
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 19:51 +0300
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-08 10:23 -0700
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 18:12 +0000
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 22:18 +0400
                                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-09 19:46 -0700
                                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-10 09:38 +0200
                                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-10 10:21 +0000
                                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-11 07:45 +0000
                                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-11 09:49 -0700
                                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-11 19:29 +0200
                                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-11 20:26 +0200
                                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-25 23:43 +0800
                                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-25 13:14 -0700
                                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-26 04:41 +0800
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 18:59 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 21:20 +0400
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 19:37 +0200
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 19:26 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-08 11:36 -0600
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:05 +0200
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:35 +0200
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 19:06 +0000
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 10:47 +0100
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:34 +0200
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:48 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:46 +0100
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-07 14:04 +0000
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:47 +0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-09-05 01:11 +0000
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:24 +0600
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 23:15 -0700
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:18 -0300
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 16:40 -0700
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 02:40 +0300
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:09 +0300
                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:12 +0300
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:13 +0300
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:14 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:16 +0300
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:18 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 04:23 +0300
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-06 19:03 -0700
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 11:57 +0000
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-05 11:01 +0100
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:14 -0300
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 18:10 +0000
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:27 +0200
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:31 +0300
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:52 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 06:44 +0000
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:35 -0300
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-09-03 15:48 -0700
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> - 2026-09-04 02:02 +0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:46 +0600
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-04 10:28 +0200
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-04 11:44 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-04 13:44 +0100
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 06:55 +0600
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 20:28 +0300
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:45 +0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:28 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:38 +0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 09:54 +0200
    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 22:58 +0000
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:13 +0600
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 07:57 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:48 -0300
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-05 12:13 -0600
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:18 -0300
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-05 12:25 -0600
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 16:22 -0300
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-06 00:11 +0000
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-05 09:17 +0100
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 11:22 +0000
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:13 -0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:39 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 08:07 +0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 10:04 +0200
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 13:03 +0200
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 13:38 +0200
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 22:30 +0400

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#18983

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-07 03:16 +0300
Message-ID<117kvoq$vkn$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18982
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             2,934 bssid.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             4,309 bssidcheck.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             1,979 bssidcompare.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM               316 bssidgenerate.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             4,312 bssidgenerate.ps1.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             1,348 bssidplot.py.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM            27,527 bssid_results.txt

 bssidplot.py

  import folium
  # This is C:\app\os\python\bssidplot.py
  # USAGE: python bssidplot.py
  # v1p0 20251214
  #  Plots en masse GPS:BSSID pairs from results.txt using FOSS Folium 
  # v1p1 20251215 
  #  Generates bssid_map.html from results.txt using Folium
  # v1p2 20251215 
  #  Brings up the bssid_map.html plot using the default web browser
  
  import folium
  
  # Read results.txt
  points = []
  with open("results.txt") as f:
      for line in f:
          parts = line.strip().split("\t")
          if len(parts) == 3:
              mac, lat, lon = parts
              points.append((mac, float(lat), float(lon)))
  
  if not points:
      print("No points found in results.txt")
      exit()
  
  # Center map on the first point
  start_lat, start_lon = points[0][1], points[0][2]
  m = folium.Map(location=[start_lat, start_lon], zoom_start=15)
  
  # Add markers
  for mac, lat, lon in points:
      folium.Marker(
          location=[lat, lon],
          popup=f"{mac}\n({lat}, {lon})",
          icon=folium.Icon(color="blue", icon="wifi", prefix="fa")
      ).add_to(m)
  
  # Save map
  m.save("bssid_map.html")
  print("Map saved to bssid_map.html")
  
  # Open map in Microsoft Edge
  import subprocess
  import os
  map_path = os.path.abspath("bssid_map.html")
  import subprocess
  subprocess.Popen(['cmd', '/c', 'start', '', map_path])   
  # end of C:\app\os\python\bssidplot.py

-- 
 bssidplot.py

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#18984

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-07 03:18 +0300
Message-ID<117kvrt$11kf$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18983
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             2,934 bssid.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             4,309 bssidcheck.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             1,979 bssidcompare.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM               316 bssidgenerate.bat.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             4,312 bssidgenerate.ps1.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM             1,348 bssidplot.py.txt
>      12/17/2025  02:28 PM            27,527 bssid_results.txt

bssid_results.txt

BSSID's can be checked using this Apple WPS query:
 <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid>

 ===== Summary of Successful BSSID Lookups =====
 F4:F2:6D:B6:A6:97
 F4:F2:6D:38:43:72 
 F4:F2:6D:8E:DE:DC 
 F4:F2:6D:87:0A:CE 
 etc.
 ===============================================

Click on these links:
 <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid&bssid=F4-F2-6D-B6-A6-97>
 <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid&bssid=F4-F2-6D-38-43-72>
 <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid&bssid=F4-F2-6D-8E-DE-DC>
 <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid&bssid=F4-F2-6D-87-0A-CE>
 etc.

Here's a report of the nearest 400 APs to the Shreveport Louisiana BSSID:
 <https://www.google.com/maps/place/32°27'32.07"N+93°48'53.84"W/>
  (4302 Josey Cir, Shreveport, LA 71109)

  Enter the BSSID (or q to quit): F4:F2:6D:B6:A6:97
  -----------------------------------------------
  === Lookup started at Wed 12/17/2025  3:15:21.02 ===
  BSSID: F4:F2:6D:B6:A6:97
  
  Searching for location of bssid: F4:F2:6D:B6:A6:97
  Saved 309 entries to results.txt
  BSSID: f4:f2:6d:b6:a6:97
  Latitude: 32.45974349
  Longitude: -93.81695556
  
  BSSID: 18:de:50:5b:14:6c
  Latitude: 32.45925521
  Longitude: -93.81757354
  
  BSSID: 1a:1e:19:0d:c9:a9
  Latitude: 32.45926666
  Longitude: -93.8175888
  
  BSSID: 1e:9e:cc:d6:cb:71
  Latitude: 32.45985031
  Longitude: -93.81725311
  
  BSSID: 1e:9e:cc:d6:cb:76
  Latitude: 32.45985031
  Longitude: -93.81725311
  
  BSSID: 02:aa:a0:ba:26:e0
  Latitude: 32.45988464
  Longitude: -93.81759643000001
  
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  Latitude: 32.45796203
  Longitude: -93.81511688
  
  BSSID: ee:5d:df:38:18:a0
  Latitude: 32.45796585
  Longitude: -93.81511688
  
  BSSID: 12:59:32:bf:8f:69
  Latitude: 32.45852661
  Longitude: -93.81599426
  
  BSSID: 34:ea:e7:69:1a:03
  Latitude: 32.45866012
  Longitude: -93.81589508
  
  BSSID: b0:7f:b9:01:3b:e3
  Latitude: 32.45864868
  Longitude: -93.81630706
  
  BSSID: c8:63:fc:21:48:e6
  Latitude: 32.458667750000004
  Longitude: -93.81589508
  
  BSSID: ce:63:fc:21:48:e6
  Latitude: 32.45867156
  Longitude: -93.81587982
  
  BSSID: d6:63:fc:21:48:e6
  Latitude: 32.45867156
  Longitude: -93.81588745
  
  BSSID: da:63:fc:21:48:e6
  Latitude: 32.45867156
  Longitude: -93.81587219000001
  
  BSSID: 54:e0:19:43:85:8d
  Latitude: 32.458667750000004
  Longitude: -93.81587219000001
  
  BSSID: 2e:3f:75:35:25:b9
  Latitude: 32.45836257
  Longitude: -93.8187561
  
  BSSID: 3c:b7:4b:a2:12:74
  Latitude: 32.45783233
  Longitude: -93.81846618
  
  BSSID: 3c:b7:4b:a2:12:75
  Latitude: 32.45782852
  Longitude: -93.81846618
  
  BSSID: 04:17:b6:01:74:91
  Latitude: 32.45777511
  Longitude: -93.81830596
  
  BSSID: 4c:bc:e9:ae:85:e6
  Latitude: 32.458477020000004
  Longitude: -93.8188095
  
  BSSID: 54:a6:5c:b0:58:af
  Latitude: 32.45839691
  Longitude: -93.81859588
  
  BSSID: 54:a6:5c:b0:58:b4
  Latitude: 32.45838546
  Longitude: -93.81859588
  
  BSSID: 72:13:01:fd:d6:19
  Latitude: 32.458404540000004
  Longitude: -93.81896972
  
  BSSID: 86:ef:16:b0:c3:44
  Latitude: 32.4580307
  Longitude: -93.81842803
  
  BSSID: 88:ef:16:b0:c3:44
  Latitude: 32.45802688
  Longitude: -93.81842041
  
  BSSID: 08:65:f0:85:af:46
  Latitude: 32.458133690000004
  Longitude: -93.81807708000001
  
  BSSID: 9c:34:26:24:02:fe
  Latitude: 32.45853042
  Longitude: -93.81868743
  
  BSSID: 9e:ad:43:e2:72:58
  Latitude: 32.45835494
  Longitude: -93.81844329
  
  BSSID: a6:36:c7:93:a6:e3
  Latitude: 32.45809555
  Longitude: -93.81831359
  
  BSSID: ac:91:9b:d4:bd:30
  Latitude: 32.45775222
  Longitude: -93.81910705
  
  BSSID: ae:61:a3:82:38:31
  Latitude: 32.45793151
  Longitude: -93.81826782
  
  BSSID: ae:97:cd:1d:65:1d
  Latitude: 32.45816421
  Longitude: -93.81831359
  
  BSSID: ae:ae:19:be:75:b9
  Latitude: 32.45865631
  Longitude: -93.81803894000001
  
  BSSID: be:34:26:24:02:fe
  Latitude: 32.45854187
  Longitude: -93.81868743
  
  BSSID: be:d7:d4:c9:42:98
  Latitude: 32.4582901
  Longitude: -93.81867218000001
  
  BSSID: c6:50:9c:9d:03:92
  Latitude: 32.45809555
  Longitude: -93.81854248
  
  BSSID: dc:eb:69:59:75:17
  Latitude: 32.45872497
  Longitude: -93.81905364
  
  BSSID: dc:eb:69:59:75:1a
  Latitude: 32.45876693
  Longitude: -93.81905364
  
  BSSID: dc:eb:69:59:75:1c
  Latitude: 32.458740230000004
  Longitude: -93.81904602
  
  BSSID: dc:eb:69:59:75:1d
  Latitude: 32.45874404
  Longitude: -93.81906127
  
  BSSID: de:34:26:24:02:fe
  Latitude: 32.45853424
  Longitude: -93.8186798
  
  BSSID: e2:db:d1:ca:98:99
  Latitude: 32.45833587
  Longitude: -93.8184967
  
  BSSID: f6:79:0a:5a:0e:aa
  Latitude: 32.45858383
  Longitude: -93.81819915
  
  BSSID: f8:79:0a:5a:0e:aa
  Latitude: 32.45858001
  Longitude: -93.81817626
  
  BSSID: 3c:b7:4b:a2:12:6f
  Latitude: 32.45782089
  Longitude: -93.81845855
  
  BSSID: 3c:b7:4b:a2:12:72
  Latitude: 32.45783233
  Longitude: -93.81846618
  
  BSSID: 4a:ea:62:bb:12:84
  Latitude: 32.45869445
  Longitude: -93.81802368
  
  BSSID: 08:65:f0:84:e3:7e
  Latitude: 32.45810699
  Longitude: -93.81805419
  
  BSSID: 08:65:f0:85:ab:f6
  Latitude: 32.45824813
  Longitude: -93.81806182
  
  BSSID: 9e:b3:f7:e9:12:d2
  Latitude: 32.45869445
  Longitude: -93.81893157
  
  BSSID: a6:6a:44:d3:d3:fb
  Latitude: 32.45800399
  Longitude: -93.81819915
  
  BSSID: b6:53:d2:96:a3:a6
  Latitude: 32.45809936
  Longitude: -93.81781768
  
  BSSID: be:d7:d4:d1:6d:a5
  Latitude: 32.4582138
  Longitude: -93.81854248
  
  BSSID: de:cd:2f:94:a1:f3
  Latitude: 32.45821762
  Longitude: -93.81860351
  
  BSSID: bc:64:4b:13:e5:b4
  Latitude: 32.45775985
  Longitude: -93.81871795
  
  BSSID: 0e:64:4b:13:e5:b4
  Latitude: 32.4577713
  Longitude: -93.81870269
  
  BSSID: 6e:29:90:48:48:f8
  Latitude: 32.45824813
  Longitude: -93.81910705
  
  BSSID: 6e:29:90:44:df:e4
  Latitude: 32.45845794
  Longitude: -93.81904602
  
  BSSID: 6e:29:90:48:5c:92
  Latitude: 32.45841598
  Longitude: -93.81911468
  
  BSSID: 10:9a:dd:89:81:75
  Latitude: 32.46053314
  Longitude: -93.81541442
  
  BSSID: 16:93:7c:21:d8:cd
  Latitude: 32.460472100000004
  Longitude: -93.81539154000001
  
  BSSID: 1c:93:7c:21:d8:cd
  Latitude: 32.46047592
  Longitude: -93.81538391000001
  
  BSSID: 1e:51:a4:d5:ad:2e
  Latitude: 32.46110534
  Longitude: -93.81504821
  
  BSSID: 22:76:13:0c:4a:e6
  Latitude: 32.46063232
  Longitude: -93.81548309
  
  BSSID: 02:71:47:b8:8e:45
  Latitude: 32.46051788
  Longitude: -93.81537628
  
  BSSID: 02:a0:0d:cf:38:92
  Latitude: 32.46069717
  Longitude: -93.81577301
  
  BSSID: 2a:c5:c8:13:e4:09
  Latitude: 32.46052169
  Longitude: -93.81542205
  
  BSSID: 3a:a0:97:ae:25:b0
  Latitude: 32.46107101
  Longitude: -93.81588745
  
  BSSID: 42:75:c3:38:ad:5d
  Latitude: 32.45996475
  Longitude: -93.81601715000001
  
  BSSID: 48:ea:62:19:c1:37
  Latitude: 32.46043395
  Longitude: -93.81559753
  
  BSSID: 58:07:f8:2c:e9:f4
  Latitude: 32.46059417
  Longitude: -93.81523895000001
  
  BSSID: 84:eb:3f:39:d3:36
  Latitude: 32.460472100000004
  Longitude: -93.81536102
  
  BSSID: c0:a0:0d:cf:38:92
  Latitude: 32.46071243
  Longitude: -93.81578826
  
  BSSID: c2:38:96:68:ab:18
  Latitude: 32.46050643
  Longitude: -93.81540679
  
  BSSID: e2:a0:0d:cf:38:92
  Latitude: 32.46071243
  Longitude: -93.81578063
  
  BSSID: e8:97:b8:8e:f4:99
  Latitude: 32.4604988
  Longitude: -93.81613159
  
  BSSID: 0e:93:7c:21:d8:cd
  Latitude: 32.46048355
  Longitude: -93.81538391000001
  
  BSSID: f8:a0:97:ae:25:b0
  Latitude: 32.46107482
  Longitude: -93.8159027
  
  BSSID: 28:6b:b4:e6:5a:6a
  Latitude: 32.46052169
  Longitude: -93.81571197
  
  BSSID: 42:75:c3:38:ad:59
  Latitude: 32.46013259
  Longitude: -93.81605529000001
  
  BSSID: 42:75:c3:38:ad:5a
  Latitude: 32.46012878
  Longitude: -93.81604766
  
  BSSID: 42:75:c3:38:ad:5e
  Latitude: 32.46014404
  Longitude: -93.81604766
  
  BSSID: 42:75:c3:38:ad:5f
  Latitude: 32.46013259
  Longitude: -93.81605529000001
  
  BSSID: 54:21:60:82:37:08
  Latitude: 32.46048736
  Longitude: -93.81610107
  
  BSSID: 8c:61:a3:83:5c:19
  Latitude: 32.4610939
  Longitude: -93.81595611
  
  BSSID: 8c:85:80:e4:91:ab
  Latitude: 32.46012115
  Longitude: -93.81610107
  
  BSSID: 90:d0:92:56:be:64
  Latitude: 32.46058654
  Longitude: -93.81621551
  
  BSSID: a2:ff:70:fe:7b:e8
  Latitude: 32.46064376
  Longitude: -93.81583404
  
  BSSID: a2:ff:70:fe:7b:ed
  Latitude: 32.46063995
  Longitude: -93.81584167
  
  BSSID: 0a:05:81:2b:bb:4d
  Latitude: 32.4604988
  Longitude: -93.81541442
  
  BSSID: ae:61:a3:83:5c:19
  Latitude: 32.4610939
  Longitude: -93.81596374
  
  BSSID: c2:e5:da:6e:1b:48
  Latitude: 32.46081161
  Longitude: -93.81608581
  
  BSSID: ce:61:a3:83:5c:19
  Latitude: 32.46108627
  Longitude: -93.81595611
  
  BSSID: 86:ea:ed:40:1b:57
  Latitude: 32.4599533
  Longitude: -93.81594848
  
  BSSID: da:a0:11:b9:d5:51
  Latitude: 32.46051788
  Longitude: -93.81621551
  
  BSSID: 72:13:01:e1:d9:21
  Latitude: 32.4601593
  Longitude: -93.81848907
  
  BSSID: 72:13:01:e1:d9:22
  Latitude: 32.46015167
  Longitude: -93.81848907
  
  BSSID: 72:13:01:e1:d9:26
  Latitude: 32.46016311
  Longitude: -93.81850433
  
  BSSID: 84:eb:3f:39:cb:07
  Latitude: 32.46070098
  Longitude: -93.81808471000001
  
  BSSID: 84:eb:3f:07:10:ef
  Latitude: 32.46009826
  Longitude: -93.81835174
  
  BSSID: 8c:61:a3:a1:11:01
  Latitude: 32.46061325
  Longitude: -93.8179779
  
  BSSID: 8c:76:3f:51:c7:f7
  Latitude: 32.46059036
  Longitude: -93.81776428
  
  BSSID: 8c:0f:6f:1b:1a:60
  Latitude: 32.46043014
  Longitude: -93.81858062
  
  BSSID: 8e:49:62:6e:f4:8a
  Latitude: 32.46063995
  Longitude: -93.81803131
  
  BSSID: 8e:76:3f:51:c7:f7
  Latitude: 32.46057891
  Longitude: -93.81777954
  
  BSSID: 96:76:3f:51:c7:f7
  Latitude: 32.46059417
  Longitude: -93.81775665
  
  BSSID: 9a:0f:6f:1b:1a:60
  Latitude: 32.46042251
  Longitude: -93.81858825
  
  BSSID: a0:68:7e:90:9d:50
  Latitude: 32.46071243
  Longitude: -93.81809997
  
  BSSID: a2:0f:6f:1b:1a:60
  Latitude: 32.460426330000004
  Longitude: -93.81858825
  
  BSSID: a6:0f:6f:1b:1a:60
  Latitude: 32.46038436
  Longitude: -93.81861877
  
  BSSID: cc:58:30:61:e8:27
  Latitude: 32.46091461
  Longitude: -93.81833648
  
  BSSID: d4:5d:df:e4:38:10
  Latitude: 32.46094512
  Longitude: -93.81808471000001
  
  BSSID: 18:60:24:d6:92:0f
  Latitude: 32.46081161
  Longitude: -93.81790161
  
  BSSID: 2a:c5:c8:04:a7:dd
  Latitude: 32.46001434
  Longitude: -93.81880187
  
  BSSID: 4a:4b:d4:6a:36:fd
  Latitude: 32.46064376
  Longitude: -93.81900787000001
  
  BSSID: 8e:49:62:f2:22:22
  Latitude: 32.460762020000004
  Longitude: -93.81889343
  
  BSSID: ae:61:a3:a1:11:01
  Latitude: 32.46060943
  Longitude: -93.8179779
  
  BSSID: ce:61:a3:a1:11:01
  Latitude: 32.46060943
  Longitude: -93.8179779
  
  BSSID: d4:5d:df:e8:5b:90
  Latitude: 32.46016311
  Longitude: -93.81820678
  
  BSSID: e2:5d:df:e8:5b:90
  Latitude: 32.46017837
  Longitude: -93.81820678
  
  BSSID: ea:01:c7:48:27:3c
  Latitude: 32.46076965
  Longitude: -93.81806945
  
  BSSID: ea:5d:df:e4:38:10
  Latitude: 32.46091842
  Longitude: -93.81809234
  
  BSSID: ea:5d:df:e8:5b:90
  Latitude: 32.46017074
  Longitude: -93.81820678
  
  BSSID: ee:5d:df:e8:5b:90
  Latitude: 32.46022033
  Longitude: -93.81821441
  
  BSSID: fa:d2:ac:08:fd:ed
  Latitude: 32.46027374
  Longitude: -93.81826782
  
  BSSID: fc:51:a4:ae:a5:50
  Latitude: 32.46082305
  Longitude: -93.81792449
  
  BSSID: fe:51:a4:ae:a5:50
  Latitude: 32.46081542
  Longitude: -93.81790924
  
  BSSID: e2:3e:cb:98:c8:2c
  Latitude: 32.46010589
  Longitude: -93.81864929
  
  BSSID: 00:18:f8:c1:4a:65
  Latitude: 32.45991134
  Longitude: -93.81384277000001
  
  BSSID: 02:aa:a0:e3:5f:38
  Latitude: 32.458904260000004
  Longitude: -93.81495666
  
  BSSID: 06:aa:a0:e3:5f:38
  Latitude: 32.45891189
  Longitude: -93.81496429
  
  BSSID: 72:13:01:01:99:9a
  Latitude: 32.45918273
  Longitude: -93.81450653
  
  BSSID: 72:13:01:01:99:9d
  Latitude: 32.45917892
  Longitude: -93.81450653
  
  BSSID: ec:aa:a0:e3:5f:38
  Latitude: 32.45891189
  Longitude: -93.81495666
  
  BSSID: fa:aa:a0:e3:5f:38
  Latitude: 32.45890808
  Longitude: -93.81495666
  -----------------------------------------------

-- 
bssid_results.txt

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#18987

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-07 04:23 +0300
Message-ID<117l3ne$247a$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18984
With the code supplied above, anyone can easily track the movements of 
every access point BSSID in the world (that is in Apple's WPS database).
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>

Note the word "mass" indicates we can not only track a single BSSID's 
location, but we can track every single BSSID in the world's location.

It's trivial to do, but only with Apple's WPS database.
It cannot be done with any other WPS database that I am aware of.

To his credit, Jon Ribbens proved the veracity of these statements by 
tracking his own BSSID location using the Python code in that article.

 ====================================================================
 From: Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
 Newsgroups: comp.lang.python,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless,alt.comp.os.windows-10
 Subject: Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy
 Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2026 00:06:34 -0000 (UTC)
 Message-ID: <slrn119pbka.8k8.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>

 > HINT: I can track the future location of every one of those billions of
 > government ID/GPS location pairs, without any restrictions on my scripts!
 >
 > Want to prove that?
 > What's your home router BSSID?
 >
 > I will not only tell you exactly where that router is located (I even wrote
 > the Python code to give me a dot on an OSM map for your location) but I can
 > trivially easily forever track that router's location forever, without any
 > restrictions on my part (which is the point of the paper, after all).

 Yes, I know that too now, after reading the paper. I downloaded the
 code at https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator (which
 was originally uploaded in 2015) and ran it locally with my own AP
 MAC address and confirmed it showed my home location very accurately.

 It does concern me that there is an attack model here which is that
 a mildly technically-inclined stalker can very easily get the BSSID
 of their victim and, as you say, find out where they've gone if they
 move house to get away from them.
 ====================================================================

For others to benefit from, in my records is this initial version of
apple_bssid_locator.py where when I ran it, I was horrified to find
that every one of my dozens of hidden access point BSSIDs were there!

I suggest each user on this thread who wishes to better understand the
nature of the problem set (as described by the paper), run this code.

  #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script
  # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
  
  # C:\app\os\python\apple_bssid_locator\apple_bssid_locator.py
  # Queries Apple WPS database for GPS:BSSID location pairs
  # Implementation based on https://github.com/hubert3/iSniff-GPS 
  #
  # Usage: apple_bssid_locator.py 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC 
  # Usage: apple_bssid_locator.py 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC --all
  # Usage: apple_bssid_locator.py 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC --map
  #
  # Changelog:
  # v1p0 20251205 - Initial version from apple_bssid_locator.py
  # v1p1 20251214 - Added logging to results.txt
  # v1p2 20251215 - Timestamped results.txt to avoid overwrites
  # v1p3 20251219 - Limited output to 6 decimal places
  # v1p4 20251219 - Added raw integer output alongside converted decimals
  # v1p5 20251222 - Fixed raw to decimal conversion (divide by 100 Million)
  
  import argparse
  import requests
  import webbrowser
  import AppleWLoc_pb2
  
  def parse_arguments():
      parser = argparse.ArgumentParser()
      parser.add_argument("bssid", type=str, help="display the location of 
the bssid")
      parser.add_argument("-m", "--map", help="shows the location on google 
maps", action='store_true')
      parser.add_argument("-a", "--all", help="shows all results returned, 
not just the requested one", action='store_true')
      args = parser.parse_args()
      return args
  
  def format_bssid(bssid):
      return ':'.join(e.rjust(2, '0') for e in bssid.split(':'))
  
  def query_bssid(bssid, output_file="results.txt"):
      apple_wloc = AppleWLoc_pb2.AppleWLoc()
      wifi_device = apple_wloc.wifi_devices.add()
      wifi_device.bssid = bssid
      apple_wloc.unknown_value1 = 0
      apple_wloc.return_single_result = 0   # request ALL results
      serialized_apple_wloc = apple_wloc.SerializeToString()
      length_serialized_apple_wloc = len(serialized_apple_wloc)
  
      headers = {'User-Agent':'locationd/1753.17 CFNetwork/889.9 
Darwin/17.2.0'}
      data = 
b"\x00\x01\x00\x05"+b"en_US"+b"\x00\x13"+b"com.apple.locationd"+b"\x00\x0a"+b"8.1.12B411"+b"\x00\x00\x00\x01\x00\x00\x00" 
+ bytes((length_serialized_apple_wloc,)) + serialized_apple_wloc
      r = requests.post('https://gs-loc.apple.com/clls/wloc', 
headers=headers, data=data)
  
      apple_wloc = AppleWLoc_pb2.AppleWLoc()
      apple_wloc.ParseFromString(r.content[10:])
  
      # Build dictionary of results
      results = {}
      with open(output_file, "w") as f:
          for wifi_device in apple_wloc.wifi_devices:
              if wifi_device.HasField('location'):
                  raw_lat = wifi_device.location.latitude
                  raw_lon = wifi_device.location.longitude
                  lat = raw_lat * 1e-8
                  lon = raw_lon * 1e-8
                  mac = format_bssid(wifi_device.bssid)
                  results[mac] = (lat, lon, raw_lat, raw_lon)
                  # Write both raw integers and converted decimals (8 
decimal places)
                  
f.write(f"{mac}\t{raw_lat}\t{raw_lon}\t{lat:.8f}\t{lon:.8f}\n")
  
      print(f"Saved {len(results)} entries to {output_file}")
      return results
  
  def main():
      args = parse_arguments()
      print("Searching for location of bssid: %s" % args.bssid)
      results = query_bssid(args.bssid)
  
      # Determine which BSSIDs to process
      bssids_to_process = results.keys() if args.all else 
[args.bssid.lower()]
  
      found = False
      for bssid in bssids_to_process:
          if bssid in results:
              lat, lon, raw_lat, raw_lon = results[bssid]
              if lat == -180.0 and lon == -180.0:
                  continue  # Skip entries that were not found
              if found:
                  print()
              print(f"BSSID: {bssid}")
              print(f"Raw latitude integer: {raw_lat}")
              print(f"Raw longitude integer: {raw_lon}")
              print(f"Latitude (degrees): {lat:.8f}")
              print(f"Longitude (degrees): {lon:.8f}")
              if args.map:
                  url = 
f"http://www.google.com/maps/place/{lat:.8f},{lon:.8f}"
                  webbrowser.open(url)
              found = True
      if not found:
          print("The bssid was not found.")
  
  if __name__ == '__main__':
      main()
  
  # end of C:\app\os\python\apple_bssid_locator\apple_bssid_locator.py
-- 
apple_bssid_locator.py

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#18988

FromKeith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Date2026-09-06 19:03 -0700
Message-ID<117l62n$2s6o1$1@kst.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#18978
Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> writes:
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>>> So, together, the Windows & Python newsgroup honed the working code.
>>> Do you need me to supply the code for you again so you can run it?
>> 
>> You haven't supplied it once.  If you did, I personally would not be
>> interested in running it, but it might at least be topical in
>> comp.lang.python *if* anyone actually discusses the code.
>
> Hi Keith Thompson,
>
> Thank you for bringing up your point of view, as all points are valid here.
> This is Usenet where we welcome deep detailed discussion of tech topics.

Usenet welcomes technical discussion of topics that are relevant to the
newsgroups in which they are posted.

> Jon Ribbens clearly ran the code so we have proof that it was referenced
> properly enough for him to have run it on his machine to prove the point.

I don't know or care where Jon Ribbens obtained any Python code.
Perhaps you provided it to him directly.  It wasn't posted here.

> Nonetheless, it's good you're *asking* for the Python code, which I only
> ran on Windows 10, and which I'm happy to supply to you for all to review.

I don't know how you misunderstood what I wrote so badly.

I haven't asked for Python code.  I've observed that you haven't
posted any Python code, and therefore your posts should not be
in comp.lang.python.  If you want to talk about Python here in
comp.lang.python, that's great.  If you don't, I wish you'd go away.

> Please keep in mind the progression of this topic started with this paper:
>  *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
>  <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>
> 
> As Jon Ribbens did, I simply ran the Python code in that article on my PC.

Are you claiming that there's Python code in that paper?  There is none
in the PDF.  (I didn't read it in any depth because it's not something I
care about.)

I see you've posted some Python source code later in this thread, along
with Windows batch and PowerShell.  Since you haven't said anything
about the code (how it's written, what features it uses, how it could be
improved), I suggest that it's (a) far too late to excuse you behavior
so far, and (b) still inappropriate for comp.lang.python.

Feel free to have the last word and pretend you've won.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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#18971

FromFrank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
Date2026-09-06 11:57 +0000
Message-ID<117jrft.j88.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
In reply to#18949
Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> writes:
> [...]
> > Heh heh heh... 
> >
> > While I realize Apple religious zealots will attack people personally
> [SNIP]
> 
> Can you please restrict this to newsgroups where it's relevant?
> 
> In particularly, there's in this thread nothing about Python or
> Windows 10.

  I'm sorry, but no can do: Usenet/NetNews doesn't allow an empty
'Newsgroups:' header.

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#18953

FromNuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-09-05 11:01 +0100
Message-ID<117gp96$1c525$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#18944
On 2026-09-05, Nick Charles wrote:

> On Sep 4, 2026 at 8:34:25 PM EDT, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2026-09-05, Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> wrote:
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>> This is about privacy.
>>>>> Not security.
>>>> 
>>>> This is about the *perception* of privacy. Like telling people they
>>>> don't have to worry about closing their curtains, they just need to
>>>> close their eyes -- if they can¢t see the people outside looking in,
>>>> then those looking in can't see them!
>>> 
>>> Hi Lawrence,
>>> 
>>> I say with all respect that your statement is too wrong to accept as is.
>>> What you just said, I've heard a thousand times before, from many people.
>>> 
>>> And yet, it's no different than what I've heard by asking the guy next to
>>> me at the gas pump since the 1960's why he puts premium in a Honda Civic.
>>> 
>>> For over five decades, people have been parroting what someone told them.
>>> None of them actually understand a word that they're obviously parroting.
>>> 
>>> Same here...
>>> 
>>> Again, I respect you for your technical acumen which is greater'n mine.
>>> But I can't tell if you know privacy differences between these situations:
>>>    a. iPhone owner happens to walk by my house
>>>    b. Android owner happens to walk by my house
>>> 
>>> Do you know the difference in terms of what happens, or not, with respect
>>> to my unique AP BSSID & GPS location (both of which are exactly my house)?
>>> 
>>> I do.
>>>    A. So does Apple.
>>>    B. So does Mozilla. And Google.
>>> 
>>> Mozilla respects a hidden access point broadcast (i.e., it's set to null).
>>> So does Google (surprisingly).
>>>    i. But not Apple.
>>>   ii. And yet, Apple loudly & vociferously proclaims to care about privacy.
>>> 
>>> That's the part that is the most hurtful.
>>> Apple brazenly lies, with a huge "what me?" seemingly innocent smile.
>>> 
>>> Yet, Apple immediately removed my BSSID/GPS from their WPS database.
>>> Because they know what I know about the lack of privacy in that
>>> regard.

This in itself is an issue, if you have to file a request to remove the
ID, that gives them another datapoint on that WLAN.

>>> It may well be I'm the only one in the world who is honored so by Apple.
>>> But that's not my point as I care about everyone's privacy. Not just mine.
>>> 
>>> Another question for you, Lawrence, again, because I respect your acumen.
>>> 
>>> Do you know the difference between these two situations:
>>>   a. iPhone owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?
>>>   b. Android owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?
>>> 
>>> What happens then?
>>> Do you know?
>>> 
>>> I do.
>>> Anyone who can't answer those queries, can't possibly understand the issue.
>> 
>> Do you have any intention of letting anyone else know what the issue is?
>
> There is no issue.  This person is a known Apple Troll whose only goal in life
> is to "make Apple look bad".  
>
> In today's episode, he is convinced that the SSID on a router can track you. 
> So if you sell your old router AND the person who bought it does not change
> the SSID, he thinks that proves that you have moved and now live at the
> current address where the router is.

Hm, yes? If the identifier is constant and is tied to a location you're
in frequently, like where you live, it can be used to track that.

And then there are people who do things like hotspots on phones to use
their mobile data connection, or even portable mobile data modems with a
WLAN AP.

> Of COURSE, the person who bought it is going to change the SSID.  Or may even
> keep the factory default because OF COURSE you are going to reset the router
> to factory defaults when you sell it. AND what if you setup your NEW router
> with the same SSID that you had on the old one?  What happens now?  Do I now
> live in 2 places at once?

Hahaha...

Yes, of course. You must live in that town named Theory. Like someone
else said recently in another group, a lot of stuff works in theory.[1]

[1] <eaqdS.8235$bZ8b.6617@fx01.iad>

If anything, it's a coin toss, don't underestimate willingness to avoid
having more work.

> Either way, there is No Problem.
>
> And what if I change the SSID of my router weekly?  Have 4 different people
> come thru my address each month?
>
> This whole thing is beyond absurd AND is typical of the BS this troll posts. 
> Apple did not change ANYTHING "at his request".  Apple only removed his SSID
> from their DB to get him to STFU and go away.

And you're doing an excellent work of conforming to the legendary figure
of the "Apple fanboy". You're attacking remarks in a way that really
looks like you're taking offense to somebody saying Apple did something
wrong.

One would think that, ever since Steve Jobs pushed hard his bad UI ideas
and ruined smartphone interaction for many, that people would have
gotten used to Apple making bad decisions...

> He will reply with more gibberish and hand waving, claiming I don't understand
> "the issue".  That is his standard M.O.

Look, I'm not saying the topic couldn't have been better explained, with
less spaghetti-looking detours and more explicit statements. That it could.

> The last time I replied to a topic this moron started, he was asking "What
> music playing apps do you use on iOS/iPadOS that are (1) free and (2) continue
> to play when the screen shuts off".  He did not even know that the included
> music playing app on iOS/iPadOS does both AND he did not even know what it was
> called. Not to mention that click-wheel iPods from 2005 were doing
> this also.

Maybe that was why they asked? Are you seriously shaming somebody for
asking a question?

> In short, he knows NOTHING about Apple, iOS, iPhones or anything else even
> vaguely related to Apple.  Look at his previous "PSA" on how to transfer files
> from Windows to an iPad. He jumps thru multiple hoops by installing software
> on both the Windows PC and the iPad. He does not know that the INCLUDED Files
> App on iOS/iPadOS can connect to Windows PCs. And Macs and Linux. And can
> transfer files in both directions.

Those two are not the same, one thing is to do a transfer from a Windows
or Linux system, another thing is to initiate the transfer from the
mobile device.

> Again, all in his goal of making Apple "look bad". But he so fucking stupid
> that he does not realize that it is only himself who looks bad.

There's quite the irony here.


But you should also learn not to shame people for asking questions or
not knowing things. That's just not acceptable.

Also see e.g. <https://xkcd.com/1053/>.

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#18962

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-05 15:14 -0300
Message-ID<117hm6f$k3t$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18953
Nuno Silva wrote:
> Look, I'm not saying the topic couldn't have been better explained, with
> less spaghetti-looking detours and more explicit statements. That it could.

I will respond to you only *after* you read the paper...
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#18973

FromFrank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
Date2026-09-06 18:10 +0000
Message-ID<117khc1.4co.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
In reply to#18953
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> Hm, yes? If the identifier is constant and is tied to a location you're
> in frequently, like where you live, it can be used to track that.

  As others have mentioned, this all has been 'discussed' umpteen times
Sofar, this thread is not bringing any new information, viewpoints,
<whatever>.

  A summary of the previous times:

  At best, a home router's BSSID is tied to a *household*, *not* to a
*person*, which is 'Arlen''s 'privacy concern'.

  'Arlen' has a wife. What is the BSSID's location 'tracking'? 'Arlen'?
His wife? His dog?

  Case in point: I'm sometimes 18000km away from the location of my
router. Quite a bit of a (location) tracking error, don't you think?

  My advice/request: Let it rest. The rest of us would appreciate not
seeing the same non-arguments over and over again.

[...]

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#18975

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-09-06 20:27 +0200
Message-ID<1tn0nmxs7v.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#18973
On 2026-09-06 20:10, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> Hm, yes? If the identifier is constant and is tied to a location you're
>> in frequently, like where you live, it can be used to track that.
> 
>    As others have mentioned, this all has been 'discussed' umpteen times
> Sofar, this thread is not bringing any new information, viewpoints,
> <whatever>.
> 
>    A summary of the previous times:
> 
>    At best, a home router's BSSID is tied to a *household*, *not* to a
> *person*, which is 'Arlen''s 'privacy concern'.
> 
>    'Arlen' has a wife. What is the BSSID's location 'tracking'? 'Arlen'?
> His wife? His dog?
> 
>    Case in point: I'm sometimes 18000km away from the location of my
> router. Quite a bit of a (location) tracking error, don't you think?
> 
>    My advice/request: Let it rest. The rest of us would appreciate not
> seeing the same non-arguments over and over again.
> 
> [...]

The new information, in not a clear form, is that Arlen got Apple to do 
"something". What, is not clear, but I guess they simple removed his 
router from the list, so that he stops complaining to his neighbour (the 
one that works for Apple or has high contacts at Apple).

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#18985

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-07 03:31 +0300
Message-ID<117l0ko$rg4$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18975
Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>    My advice/request: Let it rest. The rest of us would appreciate not
>> seeing the same non-arguments over and over again.
>> 
>> [...]
> 
> The new information, in not a clear form...

Hi Carlos,

<exasperated-sarcasm> because of the ignorance exhibited by some posters... 

Let's ignore, for the moment, how *desperate* Franklin Slootweg is to troll
 Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.mobile.android,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
 Subject: This is another request to ask Frank Slootweg to stop trolling this ng
 Message-ID: <117kuh5$kt1$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>

Clearly, Franklin hasn't read the papers, nor the cites, nor even any of
the posts in this thread, since everything he said is dead wrong... 

Franklin didn't read a single word that was said in this entire thread.
Not one word.

So, of course, Franklin Slootweg has no idea whatsoever of the topic here.

But you are correct that the *new* information, is super secret & so well
diabolically hidden from those like Franklin that they'll never find it.

You must congratulate us on how diabolically clever we were in hiding it.
Franklin Slootweg, being a troll, will _never_ find out what's new, Carlos.

But you can, can't you.
 HINT: *Simply L@@K at the SUBJECT of this thread for the hidden answer...*

Isn't it amazing how well we hid from Frank what's new in the SUBJECT line! 

</exasperated-sarcasm> due to the ungodly ignorance being exhibited here... 
-- 
Some can't ever contribute to a topic but they feel they must still troll.

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#18996

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-09-07 13:52 +0200
Message-ID<h5l2nmx14v.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#18985
On 2026-09-07 02:31, Maria Sophia wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>     My advice/request: Let it rest. The rest of us would appreciate not
>>> seeing the same non-arguments over and over again.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> The new information, in not a clear form...
> 
> Hi Carlos,
> 
> <exasperated-sarcasm> because of the ignorance exhibited by some posters...
> 
> Let's ignore, for the moment, how *desperate* Franklin Slootweg is to troll

That is OT and not in evidence.
I only see a single post of him in this thread, in the Android group. I 
don't see why you can be that angry at him.

...

> But you can, can't you.
>   HINT: *Simply L@@K at the SUBJECT of this thread for the hidden answer...*

It is good Usenet manners to explain the SUBJECT in the body.

> 
> Isn't it amazing how well we hid from Frank what's new in the SUBJECT line!
> 
> </exasperated-sarcasm> due to the ungodly ignorance being exhibited here...


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#18950

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-09-05 06:44 +0000
Message-ID<117gdnl$19ma2$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#18940
On Sat, 5 Sep 2026 06:15:55 +0600, Maria Sophia wrote:

> Do you know the difference between these two situations:
>   a. iPhone owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?
>   b. Android owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?

If there is any difference, it would not be wise to rely on it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#18957

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-05 14:35 -0300
Message-ID<117hjti$sa2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18950
Lawrence D㏕liveiro wrote:
>> Do you know the difference between these two situations:
>>   a. iPhone owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?
>>   b. Android owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?
> 
> If there is any difference, it would not be wise to rely on it.

There is a *huge* difference, Lawrence.

For half of that huge difference, all you need to do is read this paper.
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>

For the other half of that huge difference, all you need to read is this.
 <https://ichnaea.readthedocs.io/en/stable/api/geosubmit2.html>
    "The BSSID of the Wifi network. Hidden Wifi networks
     must not be collected."

Then, read how much Apple "cares about your privacy" by reading this!
 <https://support.apple.com/en-ie/102515>

For contrast, read this:
 <https://wiki.mozilla.org/CloudServices/Location/FAQ>
 <https://wiki.mozilla.org/WIFI>

HINT: 
Mozilla/MLS would not collect data from Wi-Fi networks with hidden SSIDs.
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1177952>

Daniel Veditz confirmed that Mozilla MLS, like Google WPS, does not even
*collect* the BSSID/GPS pair for hidden-broadcast SSIDs. 

Notice the difference between 'collect', 'save on device" and 'upload' to
servers, because collecting means it can't be uploaded and hence not saved
into a global database for everyone in the world to easily track the router
movements from anywhere in the world to anywhere else in the world, in
almost real time with meter-like accuracy with no restrictions at all.

Most people don't understand a word I'm saying above, so I need to be clear
that "collecting" is different from "uploading" which itself is different
from "saving" which itself is different from "allowing anyone in the entire
world to access the unique BSSID/SSID pair" sans restrictions.

If you think through the fate of the two situations I keep presenting to
you, you'll see where they diverge in such a way as to be shockingly scary.

With the Python scripts we worked on in December of last year, even I can
track any router's movements in the world, with zero restrictions.

Want to test it?
Give me your router AP BSSID in your own home.

I'll tell you where you live.

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#18933

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2026-09-03 15:48 -0700
Message-ID<87a4pykl2c.fsf@nightsong.com>
In reply to#18929
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> I don’t understand what you’re complaining about, exactly. Your wi-fi
> network broadcasts its existence to all and sundry, and yet you feel
> upset when somebody collects that information and passes it on.

Your car broadcasts its license plate number to anyone in sight of it,
yet people are rightfully ticked off at Flock cameras everywhere
recording them.

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#18934

FromAnton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc>
Date2026-09-04 02:02 +0300
Message-ID<20260904020244.c8a3fcce14ca5eb4f7473c14@gmail.moc>
In reply to#18933
Paul Rubi:

> Your car broadcasts its license plate number to anyone in
> sight of it, yet people are rightfully ticked off at Flock
> cameras everywhere recording them.

Because machine data acquirement is more powerful.

-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments

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#18947

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-05 07:46 +0600
Message-ID<117fsac$23sa$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18934
Anton Shepelev wrote:
>> Your car broadcasts its license plate number to anyone in
>> sight of it, yet people are rightfully ticked off at Flock
>> cameras everywhere recording them.
> 
> Because machine data acquirement is more powerful.

The flock camera analogy only works if anyone in the world can access it.
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>

While I understand the analogies being presented, and certainly I
understand the purpose is to claim "no big deal" as a result, I must beg to
differ because the analogies, while reasonable, fall flat on some regards.

What if, for example, the government allowed you to put a black cloth over
your license plate, and that is a clear indication that you don't want it
to be recorded by Flock cameras (& by extension, your movements recorded).

What if Google cameras respected that black cloth as did Mozilla cameras.
But what if Apple cameras refused to respect that common leave-me-alone
black cloth?

Think about that.
What if *only* Apple cameras lifted up that black cloth, on purpose.
So that they could get your unique vehicle VIN that tracks you everywhere.

Pretty bad, huh?
But wait... it gets worse.

What if the Google camera, if it happens to get your license plate, which
is tied to your unique VIN, but the Google camera sees *another* indicator
that you do not want them to put that license plate into their database.

Let's say that's a sticker, on the plate, that says, oh, let's say _nomap.

What does Apple do? 
Versus what Google and Mozilla do?

But wait, if that's not bad enough, there's still more. A lot more in fact.

What if anyone in the world could look up that license plate & related VIN
from anywhere in the world, and there are absolutely no controls on that?

What?

Do you see the difference?

Allow me to provide an example:
 a. Let's say my ex-wife is in Germany, back in the home country
 b. But, she wants to track my vehicle everywhere I go
 c. As described in the aforementioned research paper, she can.

It's no different than you choosing the license plate of your ex-wife (or
whomever) and tracking them anywhere in the world, with no controls on
that.

Do you see why understanding the problem set makes the flock camera issue
only superficially an analogy. 

The flock camera could only be an analogy if anyone in the world could
track your movements down to a meter resolution, with no controls on that.
-- 
What people need to know about privacy is complex, so they simplify it.

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#18935

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-09-04 10:28 +0200
Message-ID<o2cqmmxodi.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#18929
On 2026-09-03 10:09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 16:30:15 +0930, Maria Sophia wrote:
> 
>> Those scripts proved I could collect a list of every single access
>> point in Apple's database, just as researchers Eric Rye and Dave
>> Levin did, using a simple perl script which proved the results of
>> their paper, and which went further to prove that my own
>> hidden-broadcast SSIDs were in that database.
> 
> I don’t understand what you’re complaining about, exactly. Your wi-fi
> network broadcasts its existence to all and sundry, and yet you feel
> upset when somebody collects that information and passes it on.

I guess it is because the SSID is terminated in _nomap, which is 
documented as a flag to Apple and others to not store this SSID in their 
maps. But Apple is/was mapping them all the same.

> 
> And hiding SSIDs is a complete waste of time, which gains you nothing
> in security or privacy. Don’t do it.

Yep.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#18936

FromJon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
Date2026-09-04 11:44 +0000
Message-ID<slrn119lbpq.2a0.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
In reply to#18935
On 2026-09-04, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2026-09-03 10:09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 16:30:15 +0930, Maria Sophia wrote:
>>> Those scripts proved I could collect a list of every single access
>>> point in Apple's database, just as researchers Eric Rye and Dave
>>> Levin did, using a simple perl script which proved the results of
>>> their paper, and which went further to prove that my own
>>> hidden-broadcast SSIDs were in that database.
>> 
>> I don’t understand what you’re complaining about, exactly. Your wi-fi
>> network broadcasts its existence to all and sundry, and yet you feel
>> upset when somebody collects that information and passes it on.
>
> I guess it is because the SSID is terminated in _nomap, which is 
> documented as a flag to Apple and others to not store this SSID in their 
> maps. But Apple is/was mapping them all the same.

I got the impression they were claiming that their SSID was hidden,
which makes it irrelevant as to whether it has "_nomap" at the end
of it, but that Apple had somehow discovered and logged it nonetheless.
It seems highly implausible.

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#18937

FromNuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-09-04 13:44 +0100
Message-ID<117eefg$iikm$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#18936
On 2026-09-04, Jon Ribbens wrote:

> On 2026-09-04, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2026-09-03 10:09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 16:30:15 +0930, Maria Sophia wrote:
>>>> Those scripts proved I could collect a list of every single access
>>>> point in Apple's database, just as researchers Eric Rye and Dave
>>>> Levin did, using a simple perl script which proved the results of
>>>> their paper, and which went further to prove that my own
>>>> hidden-broadcast SSIDs were in that database.
>>> 
>>> I don’t understand what you’re complaining about, exactly. Your wi-fi
>>> network broadcasts its existence to all and sundry, and yet you feel
>>> upset when somebody collects that information and passes it on.
>>
>> I guess it is because the SSID is terminated in _nomap, which is 
>> documented as a flag to Apple and others to not store this SSID in their 
>> maps. But Apple is/was mapping them all the same.
>
> I got the impression they were claiming that their SSID was hidden,
> which makes it irrelevant as to whether it has "_nomap" at the end
> of it, but that Apple had somehow discovered and logged it nonetheless.
> It seems highly implausible.

Perhaps unless an Apple device was used to connect to it?

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#18942

FromMaria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com>
Date2026-09-05 06:55 +0600
Message-ID<117fpap$2i2q$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
In reply to#18937
Nuno Silva wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 16:30:15 +0930, Maria Sophia wrote:
>>>>> Those scripts proved I could collect a list of every single access
>>>>> point in Apple's database, just as researchers Eric Rye and Dave
>>>>> Levin did, using a simple perl script which proved the results of
>>>>> their paper, and which went further to prove that my own
>>>>> hidden-broadcast SSIDs were in that database.
>>>> 
>>>> I don┤ understand what you┴e complaining about, exactly. Your wi-fi
>>>> network broadcasts its existence to all and sundry, and yet you feel
>>>> upset when somebody collects that information and passes it on.
>>>
>>> I guess it is because the SSID is terminated in _nomap, which is 
>>> documented as a flag to Apple and others to not store this SSID in their 
>>> maps. But Apple is/was mapping them all the same.
>>
>> I got the impression they were claiming that their SSID was hidden,
>> which makes it irrelevant as to whether it has "_nomap" at the end
>> of it, but that Apple had somehow discovered and logged it nonetheless.
>> It seems highly implausible.
> 
> Perhaps unless an Apple device was used to connect to it?

This part of the discussion contains 3 very well thought out reflections.
 1. Carlos
 2. John Ribbens
 3. Nuno Silva

Months ago, we wrote a python script that essentially gathered the physical
location of every single unique access point BSSID in the world (see sig).
 <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/madinas/95kLx8eQdy4BzyZ8RoP0zoVLQ2k/>

All we did was exactly reproduce the results from Levin & Rye in this paper
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>
 <https://studylib.net/doc/28159272/surveilling-the-masses-with-wi-fi-based-positioning-systems>

There were "posters" who disputed this, particularly on the Apple ngs, 
but it was clear they were denying only to defend the honor of their God.

They didn't understand a single thing, which is telling when someone denies
research papers that no professional would deny, yet Apple posters deny it.

We were able to effectively pick any area of the world that has had an
Apple mobile device swing by at some point in time and then we could locate
every single BSSID/GPS location in that area, to identify, for
non-apartment-style areas the home address, and then, if that router was
moved to a new location, instantly, we could locate where they moved it to.

This is in keeping with what the paper claimed, and for Apple posters to
deny it (which they did), is not only absurd, but telling in how desperate
Apple posters tend to be when it comes to defending their religious God.

To remove doubt, Carlos is correct in his statement above, that every
access point I discussed with Apple Maps executives ended with "_nomap".

Therefore, they are not "supposed" to be in the Apple world wide WPS db.
And yet, they were.

None of the Apple documentation at that time said that they would be.

Only because of me (and I know this from my emails with Apple), is the cite
which I provided saying that even with _nomap, you're still in their db.

Which means, if I didn't have Apple remove it manually (which they did at
my insistence), then anyone could instantly track me down to the meter.
were I to move my router to another location in the world (by my BSSID).

Apple knows this.
They're not stupid.

They're liars.
But they're not stupid.

Notice that what Jon Ribbens said is also true, and more telling than what
Carlos had mentioned, although both are perfectly accurate assessments.
 a. The SSID has _nomap
 b. The SSID broadcast is hidden
 c. Google refuses to put that in their public WPS database
 d. Better yet, Google has protections on their public WPS database
 e. SO does Mozilla (although their database has been deprecated)
 f. So does everyone... 
 g. Except Apple

Worse, Eric Rye and Dave Levin proved that once the unique BSSID is in the
Apple WPS database, anyone in the entire world can track that router, down
to the meter, no matter where it is subsequently moved to (and no matter
what any subsequent SSID may be), which I also proved in my scripting.

Given Apple posters will stop at nothing to defend their religious God, we
wasted umpteen posts proving that, but not one of them ever ran the code.

I did.
I simply ran the same python code that was described in the research.
And got the same results (I stopped at a fefw hundred thousand, while they
went on to gather billions, or at least hundreds of millions, as I recall).

Proof of concept is all I needed to affirm that if I happen to know the
BSSID of someone's router (oh, say, an ex wife or a disgruntled employer), 
I could track that router anywhere in the world, easily, down to the meter.

As for what Nuno Silva said, all we need to do to get our unique BSSID and
GPS location into the Apple WPS database, is for an Apple mobile device to
be within hearing distance, for only a moment or so, whether or not we have
told Apple by the SSID postfix of _nomap, if the broadcast is set to null.

Those who actually understood what I wrote above, which is likely only
about one one-hundredth of the people reading this (simply because they
have bias that they can't shake), will understand the catch-22 involved.

For data collection... 
 A. Google/Mozilla do privacy one way (i.e, the well-known correct way)
 B. Apple does it completely differently.

Worse (far worse), for data distribution... 
 A. Google/Mozilla do privacy one way (i.e, with judicious controls)
 B. Apple does it completely differently (i.e., no controls at all!)

Think about that.
-- 
Privacy is a million things, of which most people only understand about 3.

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