Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #218654 > unrolled thread

What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?

Started by	Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com>
First post	2021-09-05 09:55 +0000
Last post	2021-10-08 07:27 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 224 — 41 participants

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#219364

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2021-10-06 06:37 +0100
Message-ID	<20211006063715.e80dcad3fce6d2bade14712e@eircom.net>
In reply to	#219355

On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 23:04:31 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> But they don't consider you to have bought them, only rented.
> Welcome to the wonderful world of Software as a Service (SaaS).
> Its goal is the same as that of Karl Marx: the elimination of
> private property.  (Large corporations are no longer private
> entities, but another layer - or a parallel form - of government.)

	It's a bit less sinister than that, Wall Street investors like
companies that sell open ended rental contracts because they produce
predictable income for years out of each sale and so every sale produces
growth in the company.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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#219307 — Re: unbooks, was What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?

From	John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
Date	2021-10-05 02:57 +0000
Subject	Re: unbooks, was What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
Message-ID	<sjgeu3$2ii$1@gal.iecc.com>
In reply to	#219303

According to Peter Flass  <peter_flass@yahoo.com>:
>I know of situations where someone, maybe Amazon, has gone into peoples’
>eReaders and deleted eBooks which they had purchased.

In 2009, Amazon was notified that the publisher of a Kindle book did not
have the rights to sell the book, so they both removed that edition from the catalog
and also deleted it from all of the Kindles of people who had bought it and refunded
what they'd paid.

The book, inevitably, was Orwell's "1984".

https://gizmodo.com/amazon-secretly-removes-1984-from-the-kindle-5317703

They said they wouldn't do it again, but they weren't super clear about
what they consider "it" to have been.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#219318

From	Maus <Greymaus@mail.com>
Date	2021-10-05 07:45 +0000
Message-ID	<slrnslo0l9.2lp.Greymaus@dmaus.org>
In reply to	#219303

On 2021-10-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>> 
>> No definite examples, but I did read the entire Windows EULA back
>> around the XP days.  I found a clause in which Microsoft claimed
>> entitlement to walk into your machine whenever they felt like it,
>> take a look around, and remove anything which they in their sole
>> estimation felt you should not have.
>> 
>> That nobody recognizes automatic updates as a wide-open back door
>> has always amazed me.
>> 
>> Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
>> 
>
> I know of situations where someone, maybe Amazon, has gone into peoples’
> eReaders and deleted eBooks which they had purchased.
>

I can attest that is true. There used to be a trick that I do not know
still work, you install a pirated copy of something on a windows
machine, and the next time you start up, it is gone. 


-- 
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

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#219329

From	J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date	2021-10-05 06:31 -0400
Message-ID	<haaolgtei7eo43qnvpv57jnmdaus1o0vj1@4ax.com>
In reply to	#219318

On 5 Oct 2021 07:45:45 GMT, Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:

>On 2021-10-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>> 
>>> No definite examples, but I did read the entire Windows EULA back
>>> around the XP days.  I found a clause in which Microsoft claimed
>>> entitlement to walk into your machine whenever they felt like it,
>>> take a look around, and remove anything which they in their sole
>>> estimation felt you should not have.
>>> 
>>> That nobody recognizes automatic updates as a wide-open back door
>>> has always amazed me.
>>> 
>>> Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
>>> 
>>
>> I know of situations where someone, maybe Amazon, has gone into peoples’
>> eReaders and deleted eBooks which they had purchased.
>>
>
>I can attest that is true. There used to be a trick that I do not know
>still work, you install a pirated copy of something on a windows
>machine, and the next time you start up, it is gone. 

It doesn't matter what kind of machine you are using.  It's the Kindle
software that allowed the removal.

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#219505

From	Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
Date	2021-10-24 14:36 +0000
Message-ID	<slrnsnars5.5o3.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>
In reply to	#219258

On Sun, 2021-10-03, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>> 
>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>
>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>
>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>
> No definite examples, but I did read the entire Windows EULA back
> around the XP days.  I found a clause in which Microsoft claimed
> entitlement to walk into your machine whenever they felt like it,
> take a look around, and remove anything which they in their sole
> estimation felt you should not have.
>
> That nobody recognizes automatic updates as a wide-open back door
> has always amazed me.

I think people do now, maybe.  The extortion attack on swedish food
store chain Coop (and others) in July went that way.  The cash
registers got new software pushed to them, and the new software was
ransomware: someone in the long chain of suppliers and cloud thingies
had been hacked.

> Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Yes, perhaps the cash registers are now feeding my grocery list to the
NSA again.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#219506

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2021-10-25 04:40 +0100
Message-ID	<20211025044029.f30efdbe2c7a13cce725897d@eircom.net>
In reply to	#219505

On 24 Oct 2021 14:36:53 GMT
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:

> Yes, perhaps the cash registers are now feeding my grocery list to the
> NSA again.

	Did they finish building their zettabyte store then ?

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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#219507

From	Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date	2021-10-25 17:53 +0000
Message-ID	<5aCdJ.3$8d7.0@fx11.iad>
In reply to	#219506

On 2021-10-25, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On 24 Oct 2021 14:36:53 GMT
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>
>> Yes, perhaps the cash registers are now feeding my grocery list to the
>> NSA again.
>
> 	Did they finish building their zettabyte store then ?

Almost - that's what that last budget appropriation was really for.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Life is perverse.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  It can be beautiful -
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  but it won't.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Lily Tomlin

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#219263

From	Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com>
Date	2021-10-04 05:07 +0000
Message-ID	<YZv6J.38723$GD7.484@fx23.iad>
In reply to	#219257

On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>
>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>
>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>> 
>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>> 
>
> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>
> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>
> Andy
No need to be paranoid :P
Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P


-- 

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
to weak you should be meek, and you should brainfuck stronger
https://github.com/rofl0r/chaos-pp

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#219264

From	Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com>
Date	2021-10-04 07:12 +0000
Message-ID	<slrnsllaah.2e9.Mainlander@dmaus.org>
In reply to	#219263

On 2021-10-04, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>> 
>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>> 
>>
>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>
>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>
>> Andy
> No need to be paranoid :P
> Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P
>
>

I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
now.


-- 
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

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#219279

From	Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com>
Date	2021-10-04 15:22 +0000
Message-ID	<S_E6J.9310$yk1.7925@fx13.iad>
In reply to	#219264

On 2021-10-04, Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-10-04, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>>> 
>>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>>> 
>>>
>>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>>
>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>>
>>> Andy
>> No need to be paranoid :P
>> Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P
>>
>>
Well if you wish good and LOVE to world and every single
individual in this Earth, no one will hurt you :P
>
> I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
> that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
> now.

Well if you write evil someone will stop you :P
§
>
>


-- 

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
to weak you should be meek, and you should brainfuck stronger
https://github.com/rofl0r/chaos-pp

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#219302

From	Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date	2021-10-04 17:31 -0700
Message-ID	<231856326.655086026.915306.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#219279

Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
> On 2021-10-04, Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-10-04, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>>> 
>>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>>> 
>>>> Andy
>>> No need to be paranoid :P
>>> Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P
>>> 
>>> 
> Well if you wish good and LOVE to world and every single
> individual in this Earth, no one will hurt you :P
>> 
>> I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
>> that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
>> now.
> 
> Well if you write evil someone will stop you :P
>
What’s evil to one may not be evil to another. The crazy Chinese, for
example, seem to want to control anything anyone might say about them.

Free Hong Kong!
-- 
Pete

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#219305

From	Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com>
Date	2021-10-05 01:09 +0000
Message-ID	<fBN6J.72303$ol1.32304@fx42.iad>
In reply to	#219302

On 2021-10-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-10-04, Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-04, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>>>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andy
>>>> No need to be paranoid :P
>>>> Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> Well if you wish good and LOVE to world and every single
>> individual in this Earth, no one will hurt you :P
>>> 
>>> I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
>>> that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
>>> now.
>> 
>> Well if you write evil someone will stop you :P
>>
> What’s evil to one may not be evil to another. The crazy Chinese, for
> example, seem to want to control anything anyone might say about them.
>
> Free Hong Kong!
YES! Evil is always Evil, we know what's Evil it's inside us :P

-- 

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
to weak you should be meek, and you should brainfuck stronger
https://github.com/rofl0r/chaos-pp

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#219308 — Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?

From	Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
Date	2021-10-05 00:35 -0300
Subject	Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
Message-ID	<87czokkutc.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to	#219302

On 2021-10-04, Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com> wrote:

> I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
> that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
> now.

M-x spook

Depends on file spook.lines containing any null-terminated lines you
imagine will trigger the surveillance spooks.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#219317

From	Maus <Greymaus@mail.com>
Date	2021-10-05 07:42 +0000
Message-ID	<slrnslo0eo.2lp.Greymaus@dmaus.org>
In reply to	#219302

On 2021-10-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-10-04, Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-04, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>>>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andy
>>>> No need to be paranoid :P
>>>> Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> Well if you wish good and LOVE to world and every single
>> individual in this Earth, no one will hurt you :P
>>> 
>>> I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
>>> that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
>>> now.
>> 
>> Well if you write evil someone will stop you :P
>>
> What’s evil to one may not be evil to another. The crazy Chinese, for
> example, seem to want to control anything anyone might say about them.
>
> Free Hong Kong!

With every pack of cornflakes?

Do a bit of history reading. Hong Kong was set during the opium wars to
ease the smuggling of opium into china. Not England's finest hour.


-- 
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

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#219334

From	Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date	2021-10-05 06:48 -0700
Message-ID	<1960519854.655133951.685630.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#219317

Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-10-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-04, Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-10-04, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>>>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>>>>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>> No need to be paranoid :P
>>>>> Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> Well if you wish good and LOVE to world and every single
>>> individual in this Earth, no one will hurt you :P
>>>> 
>>>> I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
>>>> that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
>>>> now.
>>> 
>>> Well if you write evil someone will stop you :P
>>> 
>> What’s evil to one may not be evil to another. The crazy Chinese, for
>> example, seem to want to control anything anyone might say about them.
>> 
>> Free Hong Kong!
> 
> With every pack of cornflakes?
> 
> Do a bit of history reading. Hong Kong was set during the opium wars to
> ease the smuggling of opium into china. Not England's finest hour.
> 
> 

Sure, but most recently they were relatively free and democratic, and were
an financial powerhouse. Now the first two are gone, and the third is
circling the drain.

-- 
Pete

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#219343

From	J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date	2021-10-05 11:50 -0400
Message-ID	<p0tolgtv5jcghlmsttt7qc315oo7jhfonr@4ax.com>
In reply to	#219334

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 06:48:44 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-10-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-10-04, Mainlander <Mainlander@katamail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-10-04, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-10-03, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/10/2021 18:43, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-10-01, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 23/09/2021 02:15, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You only update software when the benefit justifies the cost.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The problem is that a lot of updates don't add any real functionality,
>>>>>>>>> they just plug security holes that someone has found.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Or they add security holes when the vendors decide they don't
>>>>>>>> don't have their hooks into you deeply enough.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm paranoid, but I'm not _that_ paranoid.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Do you have a source for that assertion?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> No need to be paranoid :P
>>>>>> Just don''t Interfere in Politics :P
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> Well if you wish good and LOVE to world and every single
>>>> individual in this Earth, no one will hurt you :P
>>>>> 
>>>>> I remember something about stallman having a key combination in emacs
>>>>> that would insert dangerous words into text. I don't know if it works
>>>>> now.
>>>> 
>>>> Well if you write evil someone will stop you :P
>>>> 
>>> What’s evil to one may not be evil to another. The crazy Chinese, for
>>> example, seem to want to control anything anyone might say about them.
>>> 
>>> Free Hong Kong!
>> 
>> With every pack of cornflakes?
>> 
>> Do a bit of history reading. Hong Kong was set during the opium wars to
>> ease the smuggling of opium into china. Not England's finest hour.
>> 
>> 
>
>Sure, but most recently they were relatively free and democratic, and were
>an financial powerhouse. Now the first two are gone, and the third is
>circling the drain.

And China once again snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.

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#219346

From	Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com>
Date	2021-10-05 14:02 -0500
Message-ID	<sji7fn$hgc$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#219334

On 10/5/2021 8:48 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
> Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:

>>> Free Hong Kong!
>>
>> With every pack of cornflakes?
>>
>> Do a bit of history reading. Hong Kong was set during the opium wars to
>> ease the smuggling of opium into china. Not England's finest hour.
>>
>>
> 
> Sure, but most recently they were relatively free and democratic, and were
> an financial powerhouse. Now the first two are gone, and the third is
> circling the drain.

Eh, there's a fair list of countries that the US has done that to, 
because their relatively democratic governments didn't sufficiently 
follow the US line. And some clearly non-free undemocratic countries 
that the US is BFF with. Doesn't make it right for the PRC, but I'm 
not sure us USAns have the moral standing to object.

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#219347

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2021-10-05 21:18 +0100
Message-ID	<20211005211807.44aa8a7b6f7c39943e876d80@eircom.net>
In reply to	#219346

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 14:02:14 -0500
Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:

> Eh, there's a fair list of countries that the US has done that to, 
> because their relatively democratic governments didn't sufficiently 
> follow the US line. And some clearly non-free undemocratic countries 
> that the US is BFF with. Doesn't make it right for the PRC, but I'm 
> not sure us USAns have the moral standing to object.

	Last time I looked there were no saints among nations, most seem to
be getting better over time though.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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#219367

From	Maus <Greymaus@mail.com>
Date	2021-10-06 07:54 +0000
Message-ID	<slrnslqlh8.2ds.Greymaus@dmaus.org>
In reply to	#219347

On 2021-10-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 14:02:14 -0500
> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>
>> Eh, there's a fair list of countries that the US has done that to, 
>> because their relatively democratic governments didn't sufficiently 
>> follow the US line. And some clearly non-free undemocratic countries 
>> that the US is BFF with. Doesn't make it right for the PRC, but I'm 
>> not sure us USAns have the moral standing to object.
>
> 	Last time I looked there were no saints among nations, most seem to
> be getting better over time though.
>

Neither are there any saints among people. 


-- 
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

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#219371

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2021-10-06 11:29 +0100
Message-ID	<20211006112901.ecf6fc773a8c77db6d8c20ca@eircom.net>
In reply to	#219367

On 6 Oct 2021 07:54:16 GMT
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:

> On 2021-10-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 14:02:14 -0500
> > 	Last time I looked there were no saints among nations, most
> > seem to be getting better over time though.
> >
> 
> Neither are there any saints among people. 

	Ah, of course. Just as people have to be dead for several
centuries[1] before they can be declared saints it would seem that nations
with their longer lifespans would need to be dead for many millennia before
being eligible for sainthood.

[1] Long enough so that any sins can be convincingly denied.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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csiph-web

What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?

Contents

#219364

#219307 — Re: unbooks, was What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?

#219318

#219329

#219505

#219506

#219507

#219263

#219264

#219279

#219302

#219305

#219308 — Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?

#219317

#219334

#219343

#219346

#219347

#219367

#219371