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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #215646 > unrolled thread

Adobe oddity?

Started bygareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
First post2020-12-28 16:19 +0000
Last post2020-12-29 13:06 -0600
Articles 20 on this page of 577 — 38 participants

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Contents

  Adobe oddity? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-28 16:19 +0000
    Re: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-28 10:42 -0600
      Re: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-28 12:50 -0500
        Re: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-28 11:16 -0700
          Re: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-28 18:43 +0000
            Re: Adobe oddity? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-12-28 19:34 +0000
              Re: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-28 23:48 +0100
              Re: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-12-29 02:44 -0500
                Re: Adobe oddity? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-12-29 13:04 +0000
                Re: Adobe oddity? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-29 13:08 +0000
                  Re: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-12-30 20:25 -0500
                Re: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-29 07:36 -0700
                  Re: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 10:08 -0500
                    Re: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 12:58 -0500
                      Re: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 14:22 -0500
                        Re: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 15:10 -0500
                          Re: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 16:07 -0500
                            Re: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 17:15 -0500
                              Re: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 12:50 +0100
                          Re: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-29 21:48 +0000
                  Re: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-29 17:05 +0000
                    car charging, was: Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2020-12-29 17:43 +0000
                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 13:00 -0500
                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-12-29 20:05 +0000
                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 16:01 -0500
                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 17:24 -0500
                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-29 23:36 +0000
                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 16:58 -0500
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-31 22:45 +0000
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-12-31 18:38 -0500
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-01 11:12 -0700
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 13:28 -0500
                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-02 06:02 -0700
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 08:50 -0500
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:14 -0500
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:40 -0500
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:43 -0500
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-02 19:15 +0000
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 14:43 -0500
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 14:56 -0500
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 15:17 -0500
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 18:16 -0500
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 19:46 -0500
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 19:54 -0500
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-04 17:33 +0000
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 12:06 -0700
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 11:09 -0600
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 09:46 -0600
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Leo <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> - 2021-01-06 17:38 -0800
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-07 16:32 +0000
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-07 21:24 +0000
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-02 20:25 +0000
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-01-02 21:40 -0500
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-03 03:14 +0000
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 23:11 -0500
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 23:49 -0500
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 23:52 -0500
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-04 17:33 +0000
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 09:48 -0600
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 08:07 -0700
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 13:12 -0500
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-04 15:10 +0000
                                                    Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-04 18:13 +0000
                                                      Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 13:21 -0500
                                                        Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-04 19:22 +0000
                                                        Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-05 00:01 +0000
                                                      Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-04 18:57 +0000
                                                        Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 14:28 -0500
                                                          Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-04 19:55 +0000
                                                            Re: the power and the screwups, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 21:11 -0500
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 12:06 -0700
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-02 20:20 +0000
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 15:51 -0500
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 19:29 -0500
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-01-03 14:48 -0600
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-04 21:22 +0000
                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-04 22:47 +0000
                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-04 23:07 +0000
                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 20:26 -0500
                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-05 18:15 +0000
                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-05 20:12 +0000
                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 17:15 -0500
                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-07 01:41 +0000
                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-07 07:04 +0000
                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-08 21:39 +0000
                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-09 01:16 +0000
                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-09 12:54 -0600
                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-10 09:36 +0000
                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 13:29 -0600
                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-09 05:46 +0000
                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-10 11:28 +0000
                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-07 12:02 -0700
                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-08 21:39 +0000
                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-09 05:47 +0000
                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-09 17:18 +0000
                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-09 17:51 +0000
                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-09 19:19 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-09 21:02 +0000
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:55 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-11 22:22 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-13 13:15 -0700
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-13 16:24 -0500
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-14 21:56 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-14 21:56 +0000
                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-10 11:29 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2021-01-10 06:31 -0600
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-01-10 13:25 -0600
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-11 00:20 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car directing, was charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-11 00:38 +0000
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car directing, was charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-11 00:51 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-11 15:46 +0000
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 13:30 -0600
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2021-01-10 19:45 -0500
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 21:27 -0500
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-11 10:18 +0000
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-11 18:23 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:56 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-11 08:31 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-11 12:16 -0700
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-11 20:15 +0000
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-11 20:39 +0000
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-11 21:04 +0000
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-11 22:04 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:56 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 09:13 -0500
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 12:31 -0500
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 13:31 -0500
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 15:41 -0500
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-10 20:59 +0000
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:57 +0000
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-12 12:06 +0000
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-12 21:42 +0000
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-12 09:31 -0600
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-10 21:20 +0000
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:58 +0000
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-11 22:06 +0000
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2021-01-11 21:47 -0500
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-12 21:43 +0000
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-11 22:37 +0000
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2021-01-11 21:45 -0500
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-12 03:32 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-10 20:57 +0000
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-11 12:15 -0700
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:57 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-11 22:42 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-12 09:36 -0600
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-13 13:15 -0700
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-14 12:29 -0600
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-01-14 09:47 -0600
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-14 12:36 -0600
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-14 19:53 +0000
                                                                                        Re: bad predictions, was autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-14 21:23 +0000
                                                                                          Re: bad predictions, was autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-14 18:58 -0500
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-15 13:10 -0600
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-01-15 12:05 -0500
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-12 21:43 +0000
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-12 23:47 +0000
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-13 13:15 -0700
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2021-01-13 16:49 -0500
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Alfred Falk <aefalk@telus.net> - 2021-01-15 16:21 +0000
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-14 12:30 -0600
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-14 21:51 +0000
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-01-15 11:52 -0500
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-15 13:13 -0600
                                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-15 19:40 +0000
                                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-15 21:49 +0000
                                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-15 18:18 -0500
                                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-15 23:14 +0000
                                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-16 09:03 +0000
                                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-16 09:29 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-10 18:32 +0000
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:59 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? mjb@signal11.invalid (Mike) - 2021-01-12 21:36 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-13 20:20 +0000
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car tricks, was charging John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-13 22:11 +0000
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car tricks, was charging usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-14 21:55 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-10 18:32 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-01-10 18:26 -0400
                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-10 11:28 +0000
                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2021-01-10 20:00 -0500
                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-11 12:16 -0700
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-11 20:35 +0000
                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:55 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-13 13:15 -0700
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-13 16:41 -0500
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-14 21:56 +0000
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-15 13:19 -0600
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-15 21:21 +0000
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-15 18:35 -0600
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-16 20:00 -0700
                                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-17 11:49 +0000
                                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-17 17:59 +0000
                                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-17 21:43 +0000
                                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-19 11:32 -0700
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-15 21:35 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-14 22:52 +0000
                                                                        Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-11 22:17 +0000
                                                                          Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-11 18:58 -0500
                                                                            Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-12 19:52 +0000
                                                                              Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-12 16:27 -0500
                                                                                Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-13 13:15 -0700
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-13 16:46 -0500
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-14 22:52 +0000
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2021-01-13 16:48 -0500
                                                                                    Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-13 23:00 -0500
                                                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-14 22:52 +0000
                                                                                  Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-14 21:57 +0000
                                                      Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-05 18:14 +0000
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 16:54 -0700
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-05 18:14 +0000
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-05 18:14 +0000
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-05 19:46 +0000
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-07 01:41 +0000
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-07 07:27 +0000
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-10 11:28 +0000
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 09:07 -0500
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 12:29 -0500
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 13:29 -0500
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-10 18:51 +0000
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 15:40 -0500
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-10 20:54 +0000
                                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-11 00:45 +0000
                                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:55 +0000
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 16:51 -0500
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:54 +0000
                                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-11 22:18 +0000
                                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-11 23:26 +0000
                                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-11 18:50 -0500
                                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-12 21:41 +0000
                                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-12 15:48 -0600
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-10 18:13 +0000
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 13:35 -0600
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-10 20:25 +0000
                                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 17:19 -0600
                                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-11 00:40 +0000
                                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 21:25 -0500
                                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-11 12:51 -0600
                                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-11 21:00 +0000
                                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-12 09:24 -0600
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-10 20:56 +0000
                                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-10 17:21 -0600
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-11 12:15 -0700
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-11 18:52 -0500
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-11 21:54 +0000
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-13 13:15 -0700
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-07 22:14 +0000
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-07 17:36 -0500
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-08 21:40 +0000
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-09 13:31 +0000
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-11 21:13 +0000
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 14:06 -0700
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 21:21 +0000
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 17:13 -0500
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-07 01:41 +0000
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-07 07:28 +0000
                                                          Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-07 12:24 +0000
                                                            Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-07 12:40 +0000
                                                              Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-07 19:29 +0000
                                                              Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-08 21:38 +0000
                                                                Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-08 18:12 -0700
                                                                  Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2021-01-09 02:56 +0000
                                                                  Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-08 22:02 -0500
                                                                    Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-10 11:28 +0000
                                                                    Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-10 06:40 -0700
                                                                      Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-11 08:41 +0000
                                                                        Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-11 15:56 +0000
                                                                          Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-11 21:16 +0000
                                                                  Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-09 08:56 +0000
                                                            Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-07 11:46 -0500
                                                              Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-07 19:29 +0000
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-07 01:41 +0000
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-07 07:32 +0000
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-02 14:06 +0000
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 08:07 -0700
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 11:51 -0500
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 13:43 -0500
                                                    Re: dim bulbs, not car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-03 22:35 +0000
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 13:16 -0500
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 23:55 -0500
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 12:06 -0700
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 15:55 -0500
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-01-06 02:25 -0400
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 07:31 -0500
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-06 17:04 +0000
                                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-01-07 21:32 +0000
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-07 17:37 -0500
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-07 17:59 -0500
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-07 22:24 -0500
                                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-07 22:37 -0500
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-07 23:05 -0500
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-01-08 20:05 +0000
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-08 16:01 -0500
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-08 17:09 -0500
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-08 14:34 -0600
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-08 20:41 +0000
                                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-11 21:19 +0000
                                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-08 18:12 -0700
                                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-08 20:45 -0500
                                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-08 18:12 -0700
                                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-08 20:42 -0500
                                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-10 06:40 -0700
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:09 -0500
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 08:07 -0700
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 13:30 -0500
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-03 21:35 +0000
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2021-01-03 22:13 +0000
                                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 20:07 -0500
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 09:41 -0600
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-01-02 20:47 -0500
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 17:37 -0500
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-01-01 19:24 -0500
                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2021-01-02 00:36 +0000
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 21:24 -0500
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2021-01-02 03:55 +0000
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 23:29 -0500
                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 12:53 +0100
                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 12:06 +0000
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 14:38 +0100
                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-12-30 15:02 +0200
                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 11:22 -0500
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-12-31 02:12 +0200
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-12-31 01:34 +0000
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-12-31 11:53 +0000
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 10:13 -0500
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2021-01-02 17:20 +0200
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:23 -0500
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 20:42 -0500
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2021-01-02 17:26 +0200
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 13:39 -0500
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-12-31 18:29 +0000
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2021-01-02 17:35 +0200
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 12:35 -0600
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 16:59 -0500
                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 15:23 -0700
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 18:05 -0500
                                              Re: thar she blows, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-01 02:26 +0000
                                                Re: thar she blows, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 23:12 -0500
                                                  Re: thar she blows, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2021-01-01 04:41 +0000
                                                Re: thar she blows, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-01 11:12 -0700
                                                  Re: thar she blows, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 15:17 -0600
                                                    Re: thar she blows, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 21:46 -0500
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-01 11:12 -0700
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-01 13:29 +0000
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 08:54 -0500
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-05 17:35 +0000
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 11:38 -0600
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 11:26 -0600
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2021-01-02 17:38 +0200
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2021-01-02 23:25 -0500
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 11:12 -0600
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 12:34 -0600
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-12-31 18:47 +0000
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 14:03 -0600
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-12-31 22:16 +0000
                                          Re: polish enigmas, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-01 02:33 +0000
                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 11:32 -0600
                                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-01-01 19:22 +0000
                                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-02 11:26 +0000
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 09:44 -0600
                                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-02 16:50 +0000
                                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 08:07 -0700
                                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2021-01-02 19:00 +0000
                                              Re: bombes, was car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-02 19:13 +0000
                                                Re: bombes, was car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 14:53 -0500
                                              Re: Enigma and early computers antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-01-03 19:44 +0000
                                                Re: Enigma and early computers Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-01-03 16:03 -0600
                                                  Re: Enigma and early computers antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-01-04 01:06 +0000
                                                Re: memories of Enigma and early computers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-03 22:46 +0000
                                                  Re: memories of Enigma and early computers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-04 10:07 +0000
                                                    Re: memories of Enigma and early computers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-04 18:57 +0000
                                                Re: Enigma and early computers Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-01-04 21:07 -0500
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2021-01-02 17:36 +0200
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 17:07 -0500
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-02 20:20 +0000
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-03 11:50 +0000
                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-12-30 11:08 +0000
                          Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2020-12-29 21:35 +0000
                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-29 22:51 +0100
                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-12-30 11:31 +0000
                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 12:56 +0100
                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-12-30 13:12 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 14:41 +0100
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-12-30 18:15 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2020-12-30 13:58 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-12-30 15:10 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2020-12-30 15:42 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2020-12-30 16:21 +0000
                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 12:13 +0000
                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 14:43 +0100
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-12-30 19:00 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-30 19:11 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 20:08 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-30 21:54 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-30 21:55 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-12-31 12:50 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 16:50 -0500
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-01 20:44 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-01 21:44 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:22 +0100
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:31 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 15:48 -0500
                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-30 19:27 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-06 05:59 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-06 06:37 -0700
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 12:03 -0500
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-07 17:58 +0000
                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-31 21:25 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 14:54 -0700
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 17:15 -0500
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 17:07 -0500
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-31 22:58 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 18:13 -0500
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-01 11:27 -0600
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-12-31 18:40 -0500
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-01 11:05 +0000
                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-12-30 15:19 +0200
                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 14:44 +0100
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-12-30 14:06 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 15:13 +0100
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-12-30 14:29 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 10:14 -0600
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 16:41 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 15:34 -0500
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-06 05:42 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:07 +0100
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:31 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 21:44 +0100
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-31 21:35 +0100
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 16:08 -0500
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 23:16 +0100
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 15:25 -0600
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 11:27 -0500
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 17:00 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 15:20 -0600
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-31 19:03 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 15:38 -0500
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-01 20:44 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-31 21:30 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-06 06:06 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-12-30 16:41 +0200
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-12-30 14:46 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:10 +0100
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-06 05:56 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 07:37 -0500
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-06 13:12 +0000
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 12:09 -0500
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-06 18:41 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-06 13:29 +0000
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 12:11 -0500
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-06 18:01 +0000
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 15:11 -0500
                                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-06 20:38 +0000
                                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 16:45 -0500
                                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-06 22:28 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 11:33 -0500
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 17:26 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-30 19:08 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 20:20 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2021-02-02 02:50 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 10:13 -0600
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:12 +0100
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 15:27 -0600
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 22:57 +0100
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 22:27 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-12-30 18:33 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 14:19 -0500
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-03 21:27 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-03 21:55 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-03 19:57 -0500
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-04 03:00 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2021-01-04 13:58 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-04 17:33 +0000
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 13:00 -0500
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 14:35 -0500
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-04 21:29 +0000
                                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 17:46 -0500
                                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-04 23:11 +0000
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 12:06 -0700
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-04 20:00 +0000
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2021-01-04 22:15 +0100
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-04 21:29 +0000
                                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-01-06 03:10 -0400
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 09:57 -0600
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-05 11:59 +0000
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-05 20:12 +0000
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-07 21:48 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-04 10:44 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 07:23 -0500
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-04 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-30 19:27 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-12-30 16:46 -0400
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 22:16 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 21:45 +0100
                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 14:51 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:14 +0100
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-12-31 01:54 +0200
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 20:24 -0500
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2021-01-02 17:17 +0200
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-02 15:55 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2021-01-02 16:29 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-02 17:08 +0000
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2021-01-02 19:42 +0000
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-02 20:05 +0000
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2021-02-02 03:20 +0000
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-03 19:34 -0700
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-04 03:25 +0000
                                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-08 21:40 +0000
                                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-01-09 08:51 +0000
                                                Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-07 16:33 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 12:46 -0500
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-02 12:44 -0500
                                  Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-31 13:04 -0700
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-31 16:55 -0500
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-12-31 22:23 +0000
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-12-31 21:43 -0600
                                      Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-06 06:04 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-06 07:39 -0500
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-06 13:31 +0000
                                          Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-06 21:41 +0000
                                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-07 09:18 +0000
                                              Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-07 19:29 +0000
                                        Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-06 06:37 -0700
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-31 21:44 +0000
                                    Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-01-01 15:35 +0200
                            Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 17:30 -0500
                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-29 14:18 -0700
                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 17:26 -0500
                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-29 18:18 +0000
                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-29 19:50 +0000
                          Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 14:59 -0500
                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-29 21:50 +0000
                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-12-30 16:52 +0000
                            Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-30 06:48 +0000
                              Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-30 11:16 -0500
                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-12-30 16:54 +0000
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-30 19:27 +0000
                                Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 17:18 +0000
                                  Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 20:25 +0100
                                    Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 20:54 +0000
                                      Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-30 23:08 +0100
                                        Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-12-30 23:01 +0000
                Re: Adobe oddity? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-12-29 19:28 -0600
        Re: Adobe oddity? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-28 19:37 +0000
        Re: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-28 15:00 -0500
          Re: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-28 15:53 -0700
            Re: Adobe oddity? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-12-28 19:00 -0500
            Re: Adobe oddity? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-12-29 09:40 +0000
              Re: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-12-29 15:01 +0200
                Re: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-29 07:36 -0700
                  Re: Adobe oddity? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 10:10 -0500
                    Re: Adobe oddity? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-12-29 18:11 +0200
            Re: Adobe oddity? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-12-29 13:18 +0000
            Re: Adobe oddity? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-12-29 19:50 +0000
              Re: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 17:16 -0600
        Re: Adobe oddity? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2020-12-28 21:43 +0000
          Re: Flash is dead, Adobe oddity? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-12-28 22:18 +0000
            Re: Flash is dead, Adobe oddity? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2020-12-28 22:30 +0000
    Re: Adobe oddity? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-12-28 20:24 +0100
      Re: Adobe oddity? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-28 15:52 -0700
        Re: Adobe oddity? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-12-29 13:06 -0600

Page 14 of 29 — ← Prev page 1 … 12 13 [14] 15 16 … 29  Next page →


#216113 — Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2021-01-07 01:41 +0000
SubjectRe: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<5ff666cf.3712768@news.dslextreme.com>
In reply to#216062
On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 17:13:41 -0500, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 21:21:33 +0000, Vir Campestris
><vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 05/01/2021 18:14, Questor wrote:
>>> That's a very weak justification.  You're saying that it's okay for self-driving
>>> cars to kill and maim people in accidents, as long as it can be statistically
>>> shown that they do so less frequently than humans.  Would you care to explain
>>> that argument to someone who just lost a loved one in an accident with a
>>> self-driving vehicle?
>>
>>Let's turn that on its head.
>>
>>You're saying that it'll be OK for humans to drive cars even though it 
>>can be statistically shown that they kill more humans than self-driving 
>>cars.
>>
>>The self drivers will be a lot better. Just because the manufacturers 
>>have to be able to survive the lawsuits from the unlucky few.
>
>Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>case.

It can also mean, as I think it does in this case, that while they exist,
they're not very good.  The "will be" applies to their quality, not their
existance.

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#216117 — Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2021-01-07 07:28 +0000
SubjectRe: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>
In reply to#216062
On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 17:13:41 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
> case.

	It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads today
only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
treat as autonomous.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#216120 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromJohn Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
Date2021-01-07 12:24 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<rt6uhh$mr$1@gal.iecc.com>
In reply to#216117
In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>> case.
>
>	It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads today
>only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>treat as autonomous.

That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep. Then the car
runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
attention, and uh oh.

This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.

Commercial airplanes have the same problem with autopilots that can
handle all but a few situtations. I gather there are proposals to run
flight simulators in the cockpit to keep the crew's skills up.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#216121 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2021-01-07 12:40 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<20210107124013.3b8163370ebcdd87a01e2aef@eircom.net>
In reply to#216120
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> >> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
> >> case.
> >
> >	It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads
> >	today
> >only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
> >treat as autonomous.
> 
> That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
> time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep.

	Hence the requirement for systems that detect this and do something
about it - which seems not to be as well thought out or reliable as we
might hope.

> Then the car
> runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
> attention, and uh oh.

	Yep and that last 5% is the hard 5% which won't get there without
the 95% getting a lot of road testing. Still if Musk isn't shading the
truth (granted that's a significant if) even with that effect the overall
result is an improvement in safety.

> This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
> The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.

	This is indeed a big problem - two solutions give up on autonomous
vehicles or work hard to handle that last 5% while trying hard to stop
people being idiots.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#216129 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2021-01-07 19:29 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<rt7ndt01khi@news2.newsguy.com>
In reply to#216121
On 2021-01-07, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC)
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>>>> case.
>>>
>>>	It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads
>>>	today
>>> only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>>> treat as autonomous.
>> 
>> That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
>> time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep.
>
> 	Hence the requirement for systems that detect this and do something
> about it - which seems not to be as well thought out or reliable as we
> might hope.
>
>> Then the car
>> runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
>> attention, and uh oh.
>
> 	Yep and that last 5% is the hard 5% which won't get there without
> the 95% getting a lot of road testing. Still if Musk isn't shading the
> truth (granted that's a significant if) even with that effect the overall
> result is an improvement in safety.
>
>> This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
>> The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.
>
> 	This is indeed a big problem - two solutions give up on autonomous
> vehicles or work hard to handle that last 5% while trying hard to stop
> people being idiots.

    Programming today is a race between software engineers
    striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
    and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots.
    So far, the Universe is winning.
      -- Rich Cook

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  "Some of you may die,
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  but it's a sacrifice
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  I'm willing to make."
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

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#216147 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2021-01-08 21:38 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<5ff8d0be.8867010@news.dslextreme.com>
In reply to#216121
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:40:13 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:
>On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC)
>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
>>Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>>>>case.
>>>
>>>	It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads
>>>	today
>>>only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>>>treat as autonomous.
>>
>>That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
>>time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep.

It's nowhere near the fantasy that advocates are spinning.


>	Hence the requirement for systems that detect this and do something
>about it - which seems not to be as well thought out or reliable as we
>might hope.
>
>>Then the car
>>runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
>>attention, and uh oh.
>
>	Yep and that last 5% is the hard 5% which won't get there without
>the 95% getting a lot of road testing. Still if Musk isn't shading the
>truth (granted that's a significant if) even with that effect the overall
>result is an improvement in safety.

It's a lot more than 5%.  Self-driving cars perform poorly at night and in any
kind of inclement weather -- fog, rain, snow.  Even in good weather, they don't
always correctly identify objects; one car failed to recognize a man carrying a
box on his shoulder as a pedestrian.

Waymo cars depend on an extensively detailed map.  Every pole, sign, tree, etc.
near the road is known.  The car doesn't do as well when it gets off its map.

There are lots of edge cases.  As one example, every year millions of people
attend fairs and festivals where they park in grass fields.  They park in mostly
orderly rows, but they have to avoid rocks, ditches, posts, etc.  Often an
attendant will direct incoming traffic to the next space.  How will self-driving
cars handle this?

As I pointed out, these are problems in the technical realm.  What about the
social aspects?  How will self-driving cars respond to a police officer
directing traffic, such as at a busy intersection when the signal is knocked
out?  How about when that signal is working, but the police are directing
traffic to ignore it?

I've got lots more of these kind of problem issues.  I'm keeping a list...


>>This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
>>The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.
>
>	This is indeed a big problem - two solutions give up on autonomous
>vehicles or work hard to handle that last 5% while trying hard to stop
>people being idiots.

There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  But I
don't think the fantasy of fully self-driving cars will happen at such a point
in my life that it will make any difference, if indeed it can be achieved at
all.

In the medium term, autonomous vehicles will see use mostly as shuttles in
closed environments:  airport parking lots, retirement communities, corporate
and college campuses, amusement parks, etc.

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#216156 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2021-01-08 18:12 -0700
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<1465591094.631847223.308007.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#216147
Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
> There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
> humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  

But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
driving would be even more fun.

-- 
Pete

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#216161 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromFred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp>
Date2021-01-09 02:56 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<rtb604$1mdk$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#216156
On 2021-01-09, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
>> humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
>> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  
>
> But, if you eliminated the humans you???d have the road to yourself, and
> driving would be even more fun.
>

So whatever happened to alt.pave-the-world?

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#216162 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromJ. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2021-01-08 22:02 -0500
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<i26ivfdtssi98dbirj3ub15bd37ofp19us@4ax.com>
In reply to#216156
On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:12:33 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
>> humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
>> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  
>
>But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
>driving would be even more fun.

Yup.

I think that the skeptics though are thinking in terms of programmers
trying to write code to deal with every contingency.  Tesla seems to
be using big data and pattern recognition instead--they've got a
million cars giving them all sorts of data from all sorts of sensors,
as well as the actions of the human drivers.  The more Teslas on the
road, the more data coming in.

Eventually either the AI goes insane or gets pretty good.

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#216177 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2021-01-10 11:28 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<5ffae4db.2908221@news.dslextreme.com>
In reply to#216162
On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 22:02:05 -0500, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:12:33 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>>Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
>>>humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
>>>I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  
>>
>>But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
>>driving would be even more fun.
>
>Yup.
>
>I think that the skeptics though are thinking in terms of programmers
>trying to write code to deal with every contingency.  Tesla seems to
>be using big data and pattern recognition instead--they've got a
>million cars giving them all sorts of data from all sorts of sensors,
>as well as the actions of the human drivers.  The more Teslas on the
>road, the more data coming in.

That's great after it learns; maybe not so great for anyone involved in a
Tesla's first-time encounter with a new situation.

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#216183 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2021-01-10 06:40 -0700
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<1708663633.631978214.573221.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#216162
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:12:33 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
>>> humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
>>> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  
>> 
>> But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
>> driving would be even more fun.
> 
> Yup.
> 
> I think that the skeptics though are thinking in terms of programmers
> trying to write code to deal with every contingency.  Tesla seems to
> be using big data and pattern recognition instead--they've got a
> million cars giving them all sorts of data from all sorts of sensors,
> as well as the actions of the human drivers.  The more Teslas on the
> road, the more data coming in.
> 
> Eventually either the AI goes insane or gets pretty good.
> 

Driving in some cities, I think insane.

-- 
Pete

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#216221 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

Frommaus <maus@dmaus.org>
Date2021-01-11 08:41 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<slrnrvo3p8.875.maus@dmaus.org>
In reply to#216183
On 2021-01-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:12:33 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
>>>> humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
>>>> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  
>>> 
>>> But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
>>> driving would be even more fun.
>> 
>> Yup.
>> 
>> I think that the skeptics though are thinking in terms of programmers
>> trying to write code to deal with every contingency.  Tesla seems to
>> be using big data and pattern recognition instead--they've got a
>> million cars giving them all sorts of data from all sorts of sensors,
>> as well as the actions of the human drivers.  The more Teslas on the
>> road, the more data coming in.
>> 
>> Eventually either the AI goes insane or gets pretty good.
>> 
>
> Driving in some cities, I think insane.

Everyone should go to Rome, Italy for to see mad traffic. Do not bring
your own car.


-- 
greymausg@mail.com

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#216225 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromThomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Date2021-01-11 15:56 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<rthsft$ojg$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>
In reply to#216221
maus <maus@dmaus.org> schrieb:

> Everyone should go to Rome, Italy for to see mad traffic. Do not bring
> your own car.

A few decades ago, I visited Rome on a school trip.

There was one dangerous traffic situation.

A friend and I were crossing a green pedestrian traffic light,
when a police car (no lights flashing, no siren, high speed)
almost ran us down.

On the other hand, you could cross a busy street (with n lanes,
cars were using approximately 1.5*n of them), and as long as you
walked purposefully so motorists could see where you were going,
you were quite safe.

I haven't been to Rome in quite some time, so things may have
changed.

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#216237 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

From"Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1>
Date2021-01-11 21:16 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<XnsACAFD626968E3admin127001@144.76.35.252>
In reply to#216225
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:56:45 GMT, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> 
wrote:

> maus <maus@dmaus.org> schrieb:
> 
>> Everyone should go to Rome, Italy for to see mad traffic. Do not bring
>> your own car.
> 
> A few decades ago, I visited Rome on a school trip.
> 
> There was one dangerous traffic situation.
> 
> A friend and I were crossing a green pedestrian traffic light,
> when a police car (no lights flashing, no siren, high speed)
> almost ran us down.
> 
> On the other hand, you could cross a busy street (with n lanes,
> cars were using approximately 1.5*n of them), and as long as you
> walked purposefully so motorists could see where you were going,
> you were quite safe.
> 
> I haven't been to Rome in quite some time, so things may have
> changed.
> 
The chariot-drivers are still as keen as ever. Coffee & wine, what a 
combo!


-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

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#216167 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

Frommaus <maus@dmaus.org>
Date2021-01-09 08:56 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<slrnrvirtv.3md.maus@dmaus.org>
In reply to#216156
On 2021-01-09, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> There are two parts to the solution:  eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
>> humans.  That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
>> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.  
>
> But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
> driving would be even more fun.
>
>


Are you not human :)

I know a dection of goood road around here which has been replaced by
motorway. The old road is now very dangerous,, as it is now used a
racetrack by what we call `boy drivers'.


-- 
greymausg@mail.com

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#216124 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromJ. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2021-01-07 11:46 -0500
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<pkeevf1ea8f7vg908lcof6b9supv0u6i3e@4ax.com>
In reply to#216120
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
wrote:

>In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>>> case.
>>
>>	It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads today
>>only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>>treat as autonomous.
>
>That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
>time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep. Then the car
>runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
>attention, and uh oh.
>
>This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
>The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.
>
>Commercial airplanes have the same problem with autopilots that can
>handle all but a few situtations. I gather there are proposals to run
>flight simulators in the cockpit to keep the crew's skills up.

Skills isn't the issue, being "behind the airplan" is the issue--when
something goes wrong people have been struggling to stay awake with
nothing to do but watch the robot fly suddenly have to catch up with
what the robot is doing.

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#216127 — Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2021-01-07 19:29 +0000
SubjectRe: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<rt7ndu21khi@news2.newsguy.com>
In reply to#216124
On 2021-01-07, J  Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Commercial airplanes have the same problem with autopilots that can
>> handle all but a few situtations. I gather there are proposals to run
>> flight simulators in the cockpit to keep the crew's skills up.
>
> Skills isn't the issue, being "behind the airplan" is the issue--when
> something goes wrong people have been struggling to stay awake with
> nothing to do but watch the robot fly suddenly have to catch up with
> what the robot is doing.

Yes, being "behind the airplane" is a big problem - but deterioration of
basic flying skills and airmanship has been identified as a rising cause
for concern in today's highly-automated aircraft.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  "Some of you may die,
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  but it's a sacrifice
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  I'm willing to make."
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

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#216112 — Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2021-01-07 01:41 +0000
SubjectRe: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<5ff666c8.3706509@news.dslextreme.com>
In reply to#216059
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 21:21:33 +0000, Vir Campestris
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 05/01/2021 18:14, Questor wrote:
>> That's a very weak justification.  You're saying that it's okay for self-driving
>> cars to kill and maim people in accidents, as long as it can be statistically
>> shown that they do so less frequently than humans.  Would you care to explain
>> that argument to someone who just lost a loved one in an accident with a
>> self-driving vehicle?
>
>Let's turn that on its head.
>
>You're saying that it'll be OK for humans to drive cars even though it 
>can be statistically shown that they kill more humans than self-driving 
>cars.

We permit people to engage in many activities that are dangerous.


>The self drivers will be a lot better. Just because the manufacturers 
>have to be able to survive the lawsuits from the unlucky few.

It could be decided, through court cases and/or legislation, to indemnify
manufacturers.  Many, many issues regarding autonomous vehicles have not been
settled yet.

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#216118 — Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2021-01-07 07:32 +0000
SubjectRe: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<20210107073255.17c1cc031ae501b266be62bb@eircom.net>
In reply to#216112
On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 01:41:31 GMT
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 21:21:33 +0000, Vir Campestris

> >You're saying that it'll be OK for humans to drive cars even though it 
> >can be statistically shown that they kill more humans than self-driving 
> >cars.
> 
> We permit people to engage in many activities that are dangerous.

	We discourage (often to the point of imprisonment) people from
engaging in activities that are dangerous to others. Driving is far more
dangerous to others (especially pedestrians and cyclists) than it is to the
driver.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#215856 — Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2021-01-02 14:06 +0000
SubjectRe: car charging, was: Adobe oddity?
Message-ID<20210102140629.53b3534e5ba6ee8fe2d229d0@eircom.net>
In reply to#215854
On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 06:02:37 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Government’s part should be to develop a plan that takes into account all
> aspects of a conversion to mostly EVs. Maybe I’m just not up on the

	Perhaps, but this is likely to be a lengthy process and technology
is not going to stand still in the meantime.

> literature, but someone should figure out how many charging stations are
> needed, where they’re needed, and how they are going to be powered, and
> how they’re hoing to be indtalled and paid for. 

	I think it more prudent to take an approach that takes into account
the limited availability of EVs and the rate of uptake (which will no
doubt be an accelerating one) and tries to stay just a little ahead of the
curve with infrastructure support so as not to be caught flat footed if
someone develops something unexpected (think CFL rollout punctuated by LEDs
suddenly getting good).

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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