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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #215939 > unrolled thread
| Started by | gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-01-04 11:00 +0000 |
| Last post | 2021-02-12 15:40 +0000 |
| Articles | 12 on this page of 92 — 25 participants |
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AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 11:00 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-04 11:42 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> - 2021-01-04 13:08 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 17:51 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> - 2021-01-04 21:57 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 22:23 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-04 23:09 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 17:50 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> - 2021-01-04 23:00 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 16:59 -0700
Re: AI and decompilation? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 20:42 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 20:59 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 20:55 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> - 2021-01-05 10:38 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2021-01-05 12:46 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> - 2021-01-05 13:43 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2021-01-05 14:23 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 15:22 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 09:05 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 10:51 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-05 11:52 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 12:06 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-05 20:12 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-05 20:12 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 11:45 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 14:25 -0700
Re: AI and decompilation? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 20:38 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 11:54 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 14:06 -0700
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 22:52 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 10:29 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2021-01-04 11:05 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-04 17:07 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-04 17:52 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 10:28 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-05 13:06 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 13:41 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 15:30 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-05 16:42 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-05 20:12 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 14:25 -0700
Re: AI and decompilation? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-01-06 14:17 +0200
Re: AI and decompilation? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-06 12:42 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-01-06 16:42 +0200
Re: AI and decompilation? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-08 09:48 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-08 10:27 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-01-08 21:40 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 14:06 -0700
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-05 22:27 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-06 00:14 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-06 08:25 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2021-01-08 21:52 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-09 15:37 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-10 06:40 -0700
Re: AI and decompilation? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-06 15:15 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-06 16:09 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-06 17:07 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2021-01-06 17:38 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2021-01-05 21:20 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 17:47 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 14:18 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 16:54 -0700
Re: AI and decompilation? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2021-01-04 23:01 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-01-04 20:11 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 09:07 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-05 09:47 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 11:13 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 12:12 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 13:39 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 15:32 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 15:40 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-05 16:02 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-05 18:27 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 21:15 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 22:54 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 11:56 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? A. Dumas <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2021-01-05 14:11 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2021-01-05 14:22 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 15:35 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-05 18:47 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-05 20:15 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-05 07:32 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-05 16:00 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> - 2021-01-05 11:26 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-05 13:07 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-01-05 13:42 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-01-05 18:31 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? "K. Krause" <klemens.krause@gmx.net> - 2021-01-05 16:01 +0100
Re: AI and decompilation? druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2021-01-05 20:51 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-05 22:51 +0000
Re: AI and decompilation? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2021-01-08 22:23 -0500
Re: AI and decompilation? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-02-12 15:40 +0000
Page 5 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5]
| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 20:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rt2hdl0sg7@news2.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #216045 |
On 2021-01-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 15:35:26 +0000 > gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On 05/01/2021 14:11, A. Dumas wrote: >> >>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Because no such manuals are available. The BroadCom GPUs are >>>> a closely guarded proprietary secret to hoi polloi. >>> >>> Thanks for not writing the hoi polloi :) >> >> ... and yet my multimeter will read AC current! :-) >> >> ... or, in the office, all electrical equipment has to >> be PAT tested. > > Yes and you need your PIN number to use the ATM machine. This message has been brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department (just down the hall from the Department of Incomplete -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die, \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make." / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 07:32 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <i2n8vfppag9oln376ha8mm286ie92c90ov@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #215997 |
On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 09:07:21 +0000, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote: >gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes: >> Thinking back to my first job, nearly 50 years ago now, >> when I had to dis-assemble DEC's paper tape BASIC >> interpreter in order to enhance it, I guess that >> dis-assemblers and decompilers must now be ten-a-penny, >> especially for programs running under Windows where >> the structure of Windows programs is well-known with >> an assumption that C was the source language? >> >> But I wonder if Artificial Intelligence could, after >> being fed with numerous instruction sets, take a >> block of binary, and analyse its source without >> any prior knowledge of the instruction set? >> >> I am particularly interested in the Binary Blob >> provided for Raspberry Pi computers, with a view to >> getting detailed knowledge of the video processors >> employed therein. > >Why would you do that instead of reading a reference manual for the >target architecture? Because there are features not described in the reference manual.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 16:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <i20JH.47696$li2.25713@fx22.iad> |
| In reply to | #215997 |
Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes: >gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes: >> Thinking back to my first job, nearly 50 years ago now, >> when I had to dis-assemble DEC's paper tape BASIC >> interpreter in order to enhance it, I guess that >> dis-assemblers and decompilers must now be ten-a-penny, >> especially for programs running under Windows where >> the structure of Windows programs is well-known with >> an assumption that C was the source language? >> >> But I wonder if Artificial Intelligence could, after >> being fed with numerous instruction sets, take a >> block of binary, and analyse its source without >> any prior knowledge of the instruction set? >> >> I am particularly interested in the Binary Blob >> provided for Raspberry Pi computers, with a view to >> getting detailed knowledge of the video processors >> employed therein. > >Why would you do that instead of reading a reference manual for the >target architecture? Unfortunately, broadcom does not play well with others. There is no reference manual for their graphics on the SoC used by the RPi available without an NDA. Sure, documentation on the ARM core is available from arm, but the graphics are proprietary to broadcom.
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| From | Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 11:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <i5j0mmFjq4bU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #215939 |
On 04/01/2021 11:00, gareth evans wrote: > > But I wonder if Artificial Intelligence could, after > being fed with numerous instruction sets, take a > block of binary, and analyse its source without > any prior knowledge of the instruction set? If that became possible, it would not be a far step for an AI machine to self-analyse itself or another AI machine. It could make clones and unwittingly modify them. Who knows where that could lead, or what mutations could happen? Life? > > I am particularly interested in the Binary Blob > provided for Raspberry Pi computers, with a view to > getting detailed knowledge of the video processors > employed therein. The Chinese would be very interested in you. I'm sure some of the architecture is provided in layers, some public like frame buffers and some not like acceleration features. So your machine code experiments could be done on the former, to learn to walk first. Or choose another more open graphics chipset if you need more documentation to get to first base. Perhaps there is on a low end mobile phone? Here's a manual way of reverse engineering random chinese hardware. [016] IT9919 Hacking - part 1 - Reading firmware with flashrom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7JRosD_ua8 Your AI solution would have to replicate the ability of the human. -- Adrian C
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 13:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rt1oaa$t0i$2@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #216004 |
Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> schrieb: > If that became possible, it would not be a far step for an AI machine to > self-analyse itself or another AI machine. It could make clones and > unwittingly modify them. The solution to the halting problem :-)
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 13:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rt1qbm$siv$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #216016 |
On 05/01/2021 13:07, Thomas Koenig wrote: > Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> schrieb: > >> If that became possible, it would not be a far step for an AI machine to >> self-analyse itself or another AI machine. It could make clones and >> unwittingly modify them. > > The solution to the halting problem :-) > I like it when you talk dirty... -- In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act. - George Orwell
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| From | Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 18:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <eli$2101051326@qaz.wtf> |
| In reply to | #216016 |
In comp.sys.raspberry-pi, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: > Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> schrieb: >> If that became possible, it would not be a far step for an AI machine to >> self-analyse itself or another AI machine. It could make clones and >> unwittingly modify them. > The solution to the halting problem :-) That olcott fellow in comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.lang.c (and who knows where else) would like you to believe he has solved that pesky halting problem _already_. Elijah ------ suggested http://web.mst.edu/%7Elmhall/WhatToDoWhenTrisectorComes.pdf
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| From | "K. Krause" <klemens.krause@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 16:01 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <rt1uvk$7jl$1@inf1.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> |
| In reply to | #215939 |
On 04.01.21 12:00, gareth evans wrote: > Thinking back to my first job, nearly 50 years ago now, > when I had to dis-assemble DEC's paper tape BASIC > interpreter in order to enhance it, I guess that > dis-assemblers and decompilers must now be ten-a-penny, I remember DCP16 and DCP24 under OS/8, which I used some years ago to disassemble PDP8-binarys. Very efficient tools, which didn't do the job automatically, but they used tables with symbols, comments and directives how to interprete different parts of the binary: code, tables, strings, variables and so on. Interesting, efficient, great fun. :-) Klemens
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| From | druck <news@druck.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 20:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rt2jgo$v1o$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #215939 |
On 04/01/2021 11:00, gareth evans wrote: > Thinking back to my first job, nearly 50 years ago now, > when I had to dis-assemble DEC's paper tape BASIC > interpreter in order to enhance it, I guess that > dis-assemblers and decompilers must now be ten-a-penny, > especially for programs running under Windows where > the structure of Windows programs is well-known with > an assumption that C was the source language? Modern compilers of any language output a structured executable file, such as Portable Execution format for Windows and ELF for Linux. > But I wonder if Artificial Intelligence could, after > being fed with numerous instruction sets, take a > block of binary, and analyse its source without > any prior knowledge of the instruction set? That's two separate problems. The first is taking any block of binary and identifying if it contains an executable format of a particular processor architecture and OS. The second is taking a known executable format, turning it in to a human readable form, such as a high level language - which doesn't have to be the same language it was written in. > I am particularly interested in the Binary Blob > provided for Raspberry Pi computers, with a view to > getting detailed knowledge of the video processors > employed therein. That's a third problem. No matter how good your program is that identified and produces pseudo-source code, it needs someone to put in a huge amount of work to interpret and document the driver creating certain structures in memory and poking values in to registers. ---druck
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| From | gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-05 22:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rt2qh9$h9p$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #216053 |
On 05/01/2021 20:51, druck wrote: > On 04/01/2021 11:00, gareth evans wrote: >> But I wonder if Artificial Intelligence could, after >> being fed with numerous instruction sets, take a >> block of binary, and analyse its source without >> any prior knowledge of the instruction set? > > That's two separate problems. The first is taking any block of binary > and identifying if it contains an executable format of a particular > processor architecture and OS. > > The second is taking a known executable format, turning it in to a human > readable form, such as a high level language - which doesn't have to be > the same language it was written in. Sorry but neither. I'm positing the problem of analysing binary when it does not feature in any known published format.
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| From | Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-08 22:23 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <7s6ivfloat6r90keuciark5dlf1rl5qadc@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #216065 |
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 22:51:12 +0000, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> declaimed the following: > >Sorry but neither. I'm positing the problem of analysing binary when it >does not feature in any known published format. And no published instruction set either? Consider this (assembly source) structure... (I may have some mistakes in it, as my manuals are hiding in a storage facility). arg1 data 1 arg2 data 2 retval data 0 ... bal,15 dostuff data arg1 ;arg1/arg2/retval are the addresses of the data data arg2 data retval ... dostuff lw,14 *15 ;* is indirect access operator stw,14 param1 ;retrieve and save address of param1 adi,15 1 ;increment link register lw,14 *15 stw,14 param2 adi,15 1 ld,10 *param1 ;access param1 data mw,10 *param2 stw,10 *15 ;save result return value adi,15 1 b *15 ;return from routine param1 data 0 param2 data 0 -- Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/
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| From | Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-02-12 15:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <i8nlrlFc4j7U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #215939 |
gareth evans wrote: > I am particularly interested in the Binary Blob > provided for Raspberry Pi computers, with a view to > getting detailed knowledge of the video processors > employed therein. Here's something for you, a C64 emulator that runs baremetal on Pi hardware (no Linux involved) so you can see exactly how it talks to the GPU <https://github.com/randyrossi/bmc64>
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