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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #208265 > unrolled thread

IBM system/360 ad

Started byhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
First post2019-11-25 13:20 -0800
Last post2020-03-12 18:21 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 634 — 42 participants

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Contents

  IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2019-11-25 13:20 -0800
    Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2019-11-25 15:07 -0800
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2019-11-26 01:22 +0000
        Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2019-11-27 12:54 -0800
          Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2019-11-28 18:08 +0000
        Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2019-11-28 09:44 +0000
          Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2019-11-28 11:04 -0700
        Re: IBM system/360 ad James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-23 03:55 -0700
    Re: IBM system/360 ad Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2019-11-25 14:41 -1000
      Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-11-26 01:31 +0000
      Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2019-11-27 12:49 -0800
        Re: IBM system/360 ad Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2019-11-27 21:23 +0000
          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2019-11-27 13:39 -0800
            Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2019-11-27 18:18 -0500
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> - 2019-12-02 00:23 +0100
                Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-12-02 15:37 +0000
        Re: IBM system/360 ad David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> - 2019-11-28 03:16 +0000
    Re: IBM system/360 ad David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2019-11-26 21:35 +0000
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2019-11-26 22:21 +0000
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2019-11-26 22:50 +0000
        Re: IBM system/360 ad David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2019-11-27 00:41 +0000
          Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2019-11-27 05:49 +0000
            Re: IBM system/360 ad David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2019-11-27 11:22 +0000
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2019-11-27 19:54 +0000
                Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2019-11-27 13:05 -0800
            Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2019-11-27 13:04 -0800
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2019-11-27 13:11 -1000
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2019-11-28 18:08 +0000
                Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2019-11-28 13:28 -0500
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2019-12-01 13:16 -0800
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2019-12-03 15:14 +0000
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2019-12-04 13:01 -0800
                Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2019-11-28 19:41 -0500
    Re: IBM system/360 ad robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-03-08 16:07 -0700
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-03-08 16:50 -0700
        Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-08 17:19 -0700
          Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-03-09 13:19 -0700
            Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-09 16:18 -0700
        Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-09 12:16 -0700
          Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-09 16:35 -0400
            Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-09 16:18 -0700
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-09 19:41 -0400
                Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-10 12:29 -0700
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-10 19:02 -0400
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-11 12:09 -0700
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-11 14:52 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-03-12 19:08 +0000
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-12 16:46 -0400
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-12 15:07 -0700
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-11 12:10 -0700
            Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-03-10 01:06 +0000
              Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-10 11:33 -0700
                Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-03-10 18:48 +0000
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-10 12:09 -0700
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-03-10 22:46 +0000
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-11 12:18 -0700
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-03-11 19:49 +0000
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-11 13:11 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-03-12 19:08 +0000
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-12 16:42 -0400
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-03-12 22:11 +0000
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-03-12 23:49 +0000
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-03-13 08:36 +0000
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-11 14:52 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-03-11 22:17 +0000
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-11 16:47 -0700
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:40 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-25 13:52 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 18:06 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-27 11:32 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-27 19:08 +0000
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-11 14:52 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-03-11 18:17 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-12 15:03 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-03-12 15:29 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-03-12 19:38 -0700
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-13 10:18 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-03-13 18:07 +0000
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-13 11:43 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-27 11:31 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-27 19:08 +0000
              Re: IBM system/360 ad antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-06-12 01:34 +0000
                Re: IBM system/360-30 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-06-13 00:19 +0000
                  Re: IBM system/360-30 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-06-13 00:26 +0000
                  Re: IBM system/360-30 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-12 20:38 -0400
            Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-03-09 21:38 -0700
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-10 12:11 -0400
                Re: IBM system/360 ad antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-06-12 02:11 +0000
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-12 10:13 -0400
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-12 07:54 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-12 12:04 -0400
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-12 10:31 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-22 11:11 -0700
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-12 07:49 -0700
                    Re: IBM 1130, system John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-06-12 23:51 +0000
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-22 11:09 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-23 00:55 +0000
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-24 13:29 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-24 17:35 -0400
                            RPG was Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-24 23:03 +0000
                              Re: RPG was Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-25 01:19 +0000
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-24 18:37 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-25 07:26 +0000
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 07:12 -0400
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-25 11:29 +0000
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 07:51 -0400
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-25 14:34 +0000
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 11:01 -0400
                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-25 15:15 +0000
                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 11:39 -0400
                                            Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 12:15 -0400
                                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 15:24 -0400
                                                Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 16:50 -0400
                                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 15:34 -0400
                                                Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 16:53 -0400
                                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-25 23:14 +0000
                                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-25 17:28 +0000
                                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 11:13 -0700
                                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-26 07:01 +0000
                                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 11:31 -0400
                                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-26 10:11 -0700
                                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 13:26 -0400
                                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-26 11:28 -0700
                                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-26 20:23 +0000
                                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 14:35 -0400
                                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-26 12:08 -0700
                                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 15:13 -0400
                                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-26 14:28 -0700
                                                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-26 22:33 +0100
                                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 15:47 -0400
                                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-26 11:10 +0000
                                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 08:15 -0400
                                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-26 14:51 +0000
                                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-26 16:20 +0100
                                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 12:24 -0400
                                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-26 16:46 +0000
                                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-26 19:52 +0000
                                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 17:00 -0400
                                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-08-27 14:11 -0400
                                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-26 20:21 +0000
                                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-26 22:38 +0100
                                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-27 06:32 +0000
                                                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-27 11:39 +0000
                                                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-27 13:38 +0000
                                                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-27 12:03 +0000
                                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-26 20:11 +0000
                                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-26 21:17 +0000
                                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                              Re: IBM system/360 ad drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-08-26 12:13 -0500
                                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-26 11:27 -0700
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 17:21 +0100
                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-25 17:37 +0000
                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2020-08-26 04:07 -0500
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-25 12:02 +0000
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 08:29 -0400
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-25 12:35 +0000
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-25 20:20 +0000
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-25 12:45 +0000
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 10:31 -0400
                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-25 14:54 +0000
                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 16:33 +0100
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-25 14:44 +0000
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 16:31 +0100
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 19:16 +0100
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 15:55 -0400
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-25 14:43 +0000
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-25 14:52 +0000
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 11:02 -0400
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 16:38 +0100
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-25 14:27 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-25 01:19 +0000
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-25 13:13 +0000
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 16:38 +0100
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-23 07:37 +0000
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Gerard Schildberger <gerard46@rrt.net> - 2020-08-23 01:00 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-23 10:28 -0700
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-23 10:43 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-23 12:22 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-23 20:49 +0100
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-22 11:05 -0700
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-23 00:55 +0000
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-24 13:25 -0700
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-24 17:18 -0400
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-25 01:19 +0000
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-24 22:08 -0400
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-25 03:46 +0000
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 07:09 -0400
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-25 15:15 +0000
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 11:44 -0400
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 12:29 -0400
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-25 19:37 +0000
                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 21:52 +0100
                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-08-26 07:44 +0000
                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-26 12:21 +0000
                                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-26 15:15 +0100
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 17:42 -0700
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-27 09:43 +0000
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 16:43 -0400
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 22:27 +0100
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-25 14:38 -0700
                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 18:09 -0400
                                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-26 00:12 +0000
                                          Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 20:35 -0400
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-24 18:37 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-25 11:18 +0000
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 07:40 -0400
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 08:26 -0400
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-25 12:35 +0000
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 10:26 -0400
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 16:44 -0400
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 07:56 -0400
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 09:41 -0400
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 10:43 -0400
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-25 16:28 +0100
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 11:52 -0400
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-25 15:16 +0000
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-25 12:56 +0000
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 10:40 -0400
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 10:59 -0700
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 15:58 -0400
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-25 19:57 +0000
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 16:48 -0400
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-25 14:26 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 19:07 -0400
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-23 06:55 -0700
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-23 10:23 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-23 14:33 -0400
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-23 23:28 -0700
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-24 13:39 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-24 18:37 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-24 22:13 -0400
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-24 20:09 -0700
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-25 14:11 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 23:18 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-26 14:34 -0700
                              Re: IBM system/360 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 17:49 -0400
                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-26 22:28 +0000
                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 06:49 -0700
                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-27 17:27 +0000
                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-27 11:49 -0700
                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-27 19:39 +0000
                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-28 12:42 -0700
                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-28 20:21 +0000
                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-28 21:36 +0000
                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-01 11:13 -0700
                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-01 19:17 +0000
                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 18:22 -0700
                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-02 08:42 +0000
                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2020-09-03 05:37 +0000
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 02:22 -0700
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-03 09:48 +0000
                                                          Re: PL/something, IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-03 17:55 +0000
                                                            Re: PL/something, IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-03 19:31 +0100
                                                              Re: PL/something, IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-03 22:13 +0000
                                                            Re: PL/something, IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 19:24 -0700
                                                            Re: PL/something, IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2020-09-04 05:30 +0000
                                                              Re: PL/something, IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 16:08 -0700
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2020-09-04 05:21 +0000
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 10:00 -0400
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2020-09-05 05:51 +0000
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2020-09-05 06:34 +0000
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 10:08 -0400
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 19:13 -0700
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-08 12:16 -0700
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-09-08 21:10 -0500
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-09 05:07 +0000
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-09 09:38 +0000
                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-09 11:16 +0100
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 19:07 -0700
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 16:06 -0700
                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-02 12:18 -0600
                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-01 19:20 +0000
                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-01 16:06 -0700
                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 19:12 -0400
                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-02 11:59 +0000
                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 09:11 -0400
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-02 14:05 +0000
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 12:18 -0400
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-02 16:34 +0000
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-02 20:35 +0000
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-02 23:59 +0100
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-03 10:16 -0700
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 13:39 -0400
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? lawrence <lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom> - 2020-09-03 18:31 -0500
                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 19:45 -0400
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-09-03 13:26 -0500
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 20:49 -0400
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-03 01:37 +0000
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 23:27 -0400
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-03 07:05 +0100
                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-03 10:16 -0700
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-09-03 12:29 +0000
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-03 16:26 +0000
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-09-03 13:11 -0500
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Richard Thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> - 2020-09-03 14:20 -0400
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-03 11:48 -0700
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-03 19:57 +0000
                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 10:38 -0500
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-03 19:04 +0000
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 18:00 -0400
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-03 10:55 -0700
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 14:02 -0400
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-03 22:45 +0000
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 19:11 -0400
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-02 17:45 +0100
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 10:10 -0400
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 12:22 -0400
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-02 09:53 -0700
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 15:19 -0400
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-02 20:52 +0000
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 21:04 -0400
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-03 07:19 +0000
                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 09:15 -0400
                                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-09-03 13:28 -0700
                                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 18:04 -0400
                                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-04 05:48 +0000
                                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 10:07 -0400
                                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-04 14:56 +0000
                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 11:07 -0400
                                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-04 19:49 +0000
                                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 16:12 -0400
                                                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-04 20:34 +0000
                                                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 16:53 -0400
                                                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-04 21:23 +0000
                                                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-05 12:22 +0000
                                                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 18:41 -0400
                                                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 21:00 -0400
                                                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-04 18:09 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 21:41 -0400
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 22:10 -0400
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-08 12:04 -0700
                                                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-08 23:35 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-09 13:17 -0700
                                                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 21:34 -0400
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 22:37 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 23:56 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: fun with APL, was IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-05 19:02 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: fun with APL, was IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 16:23 -0400
                                                                                                        Re: fun with APL, was IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 16:37 -0400
                                                                                                          Re: fun with APL, was IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 16:57 -0400
                                                                                                            Re: fun with APL, was IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 17:09 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 17:38 -0700
                                                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 22:05 -0400
                                                                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 06:30 -0700
                                                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 21:32 -0500
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 23:08 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 00:05 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-05 09:48 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-05 07:20 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-08 12:09 -0700
                                                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 21:00 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 14:45 -0500
                                                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-08 11:53 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 18:37 -0400
                                                                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-08 11:59 -0700
                                                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:22 -0400
                                                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-04 16:02 -0700
                                                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 19:43 -0400
                                                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 18:13 -0400
                                                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-05 09:47 +0000
                                                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 12:21 +0100
                                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-03 21:45 +0000
                                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 19:01 -0400
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 13:16 -0400
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> - 2020-09-02 16:14 +0200
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-02 07:20 -0700
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 12:36 -0400
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 13:19 -0400
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 15:25 -0400
                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-02 14:43 +0100
                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-02 06:35 -0700
                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 12:40 -0400
                                                  Re: Fortran on IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-02 02:08 +0000
                                                    Re: Fortran on IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-02 06:12 +0000
                                                      Re: Fortran on IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-02 20:36 +0000
                                                        Re: Fortran on IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-02 20:54 +0000
                                                          Re: Fortran on IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-02 22:18 +0000
                                                            Re: Fortran on IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-03 06:27 +0000
                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 16:48 -0400
                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-27 16:40 -0700
                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-27 23:53 +0000
                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 20:33 -0400
                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-28 02:46 +0000
                                              Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 23:08 -0400
                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-28 19:30 +0000
                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 16:00 -0400
                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-28 20:27 +0000
                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-28 21:01 +0000
                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 15:15 -0700
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-28 22:51 +0000
                                                        Re: IBM system/360/20, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-29 01:24 +0000
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 20:28 -0700
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-29 18:19 +0000
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-29 19:52 -0700
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-30 17:47 +0000
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 14:16 -0400
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-01 03:32 +0000
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-30 15:11 -0700
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 19:41 -0700
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-31 08:58 -0700
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 17:27 -0700
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-31 01:06 +0000
                                                                    Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 20:26 -0700
                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-30 20:34 -0700
                                                                        Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-31 21:21 -0700
                                                                      Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-31 16:34 +0000
                                                                        Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-31 22:13 -0700
                                                                          Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-01 06:34 -0700
                                                                          Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-09-01 16:52 -0700
                                                              Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-01 11:07 -0700
                                                                Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-01 19:38 +0000
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 16:08 -0400
                                                                  Re: IBM system/360, model 20 PL/I Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 18:41 -0700
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:22 -0700
                                                Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-28 12:49 -0700
                                                  Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 16:23 -0400
                                                    Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-29 12:21 +0000
                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-29 09:41 -0400
                                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:24 -0700
                                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-29 15:07 -0400
                                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-29 17:52 -0700
                                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-29 22:21 -0400
                                            Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 07:20 -0700
                                      Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-27 16:40 -0700
                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-28 00:56 +0000
                                        Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-28 12:46 -0700
                                          Re: IBM system/360, whiz or dog? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 16:15 -0400
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 17:59 -0700
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-26 21:47 -0400
                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-27 02:40 +0000
                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 00:04 -0400
                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 06:24 -0700
                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-08-27 15:55 +0100
                                    Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 11:14 -0400
                                      Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-27 17:30 +0000
                                      Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-27 23:24 -0700
                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 06:38 -0400
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 06:44 -0700
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 10:59 -0400
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 10:15 -0700
                                                Re: KDF9 Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 19:05 -0700
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-28 19:37 +0000
                                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 16:05 -0400
                                                  Re: stacks KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-28 20:30 +0000
                                                    Re: stacks KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-28 21:40 +0000
                                                      Re: stacks KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 15:15 -0700
                                                    Re: stacks KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 15:15 -0700
                                                      Re: stacks KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 20:03 -0400
                                                        Re: stacks KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 18:09 -0700
                                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-29 14:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-29 18:33 +0000
                                                    Re: Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-30 11:09 +0000
                                                      Re: Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-30 07:18 -0700
                                                        Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-30 17:58 +0000
                                                          Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-31 17:17 +0000
                                                            Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-31 19:58 +0000
                                                              Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-01 09:39 +0000
                                                            Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 04:10 -0700
                                                              Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 08:19 -0400
                                                                Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-01 18:08 +0000
                                                                  Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 16:04 -0400
                                                                  Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 18:13 -0700
                                                                    Re: block moves, 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-02 02:14 +0000
                                                                      Re: block moves, 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 20:52 -0700
                                                                    Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-02 06:35 -0700
                                                                  Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 20:34 -0700
                                                                    Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 00:06 -0400
                                                                Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 18:05 -0700
                                                                  Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 22:32 -0400
                                                                    Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-02 02:51 +0000
                                                                      Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 23:52 -0400
                                                                    Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-01 20:58 -0700
                                                                  Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-02 06:35 -0700
                                                                    Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 10:18 -0400
                                                                      Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-02 16:54 +0000
                                                                        Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 13:28 -0400
                                                          Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-31 15:50 -0700
                                                            Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-31 17:24 -0700
                                                            Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-31 22:19 -0700
                                                            Re: 70X index OR mode, Fortran, not KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-31 22:23 -0700
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robert Marshall <spam@capuchin.co.uk> - 2020-08-28 18:58 +0100
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-28 15:23 -0700
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 18:09 -0700
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:21 -0700
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-02 07:05 +0000
                                            Re: KDF9 Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 19:39 -0700
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:18 -0700
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-29 17:52 -0700
                                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-29 21:39 -0400
                                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-08-30 11:51 +0000
                                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 08:06 -0400
                                                    Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 08:36 -0400
                                                      Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 10:43 -0400
                                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 11:49 -0400
                                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 13:10 -0400
                                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 13:33 -0400
                                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 15:03 -0400
                                                    Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-30 16:37 +0000
                                                      Re: Home made card reader Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-30 16:55 +0000
                                                        Re: Home made card reader J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 13:20 -0400
                                                          Re: Home made card reader Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-30 17:23 +0000
                                                            Re: Home made card reader Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 16:38 -0700
                                                              Re: Home made card reader John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-31 00:27 +0000
                                                              Re: Home made card reader Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-31 09:34 +0000
                                                                Re: Home made card reader usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-02 07:04 +0000
                                                                  Re: Home made card reader Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-02 08:27 +0000
                                                                    Re: Home made card reader Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-02 16:54 +0000
                                                      Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-30 15:04 -0700
                                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-30 18:19 -0400
                                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-31 07:23 +0100
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-29 20:34 -0700
                                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-30 11:37 +0100
                                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-30 11:40 +0100
                                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-30 07:31 -0700
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-02 07:06 +0000
                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-02 07:03 +0000
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-02 06:35 -0700
                                          Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-02 20:40 +0000
                                            Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 21:06 -0400
                                              Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-03 01:41 +0000
                                                Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-02 23:28 -0400
                                                  Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-03 18:10 +0000
                                                    Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 17:25 -0400
                                                      Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-03 22:26 +0000
                                                        Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-03 19:03 -0400
                                                          Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-09-04 16:03 -0700
                                                      Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-09-04 23:34 -0700
                                                        Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 10:02 -0400
                                                        Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 17:38 -0700
                                                Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-03 16:32 +0000
                                            Re: PDP-10, was KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-04 18:11 +0000
                                      Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-08-29 01:04 +0100
                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 20:14 -0400
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-29 08:35 -0700
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-29 12:13 -0400
                                    Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-27 16:40 -0700
                                      Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-28 07:00 +0100
                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-28 15:17 -0700
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 18:24 -0400
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 20:04 -0400
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 18:09 -0700
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 22:07 -0400
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:20 -0700
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-29 12:28 +0000
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-29 12:31 +0000
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-29 23:58 +0000
                                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-09-01 11:10 -0700
                                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-02 05:21 +0100
                                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-02 16:54 +0000
                                            Re: flaming, not at all KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-29 18:35 +0000
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:15 -0700
                                      Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-28 12:45 -0700
                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-28 20:28 +0000
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-29 11:11 -0700
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-29 14:28 -0400
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-29 19:39 +0100
                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 16:59 -0400
                                        Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 15:15 -0700
                                          Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 18:25 -0400
                                            Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-28 18:09 -0700
                                              Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 22:28 -0400
                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 10:28 -0700
                                    Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-29 08:40 -0700
                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-27 06:32 +0000
                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-27 07:50 -0700
                                    Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 18:56 -0400
                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-27 11:39 -0700
                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 06:34 -0700
                                  Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-27 11:44 -0700
                                    Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-27 19:08 +0000
                                Re: KDF9, not IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-27 11:36 -0700
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 06:11 -0700
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 09:25 -0400
                                  Re: IBM system/360 Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 10:32 -0700
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-27 07:50 -0700
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 10:36 -0700
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-27 16:40 -0700
                                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-28 05:10 -0700
                              Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 06:20 -0700
                                Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-27 09:31 -0400
                                  Re: IBM system/360 ad John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-27 17:42 +0000
                                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Stoat <fake@fake.org> - 2020-08-28 15:49 +1200
                            Re: IBM system/360 ad gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-27 16:06 +0100
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-25 14:03 -0700
            Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-10 11:27 -0700
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-10 14:47 -0400
                Re: IBM system/360 ad Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-03-11 15:05 -0400
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-11 16:33 -0400
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-12 14:57 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-12 19:59 -0400
                        Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-12 17:27 -0700
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-12 20:57 -0400
                          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-13 10:15 -0700
              Re: IBM system/360 ad robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-03-10 18:06 -0700
            Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-03-11 12:32 -0700
            Re: IBM system/360 ad antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-06-12 02:52 +0000
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-12 10:27 -0400
                Re: IBM system/360 ad antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-06-14 13:40 +0000
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-06-14 09:01 -0700
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-14 12:36 -0400
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-06-15 21:58 +0000
              Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-12 07:49 -0700
                Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-06-12 12:57 -0700
                  Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-12 17:39 -0400
                    Re: IBM system/360 ad Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-06-12 15:29 -0700
                      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-12 20:33 -0400
        Re: IBM system/360 ad Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2020-03-11 21:23 -0500
          Re: IBM system/360 ad robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-03-11 20:50 -0700
          Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-12 09:34 -0700
          Re: IBM system/360 ad hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-25 13:55 -0700
            Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-25 18:06 -0700
            Re: IBM system/360 ad Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-25 23:05 -0700
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-08 17:19 -0700
    Re: IBM system/360 ad rnetzlof@gmail.com - 2020-03-09 18:11 -0700
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-03-09 21:36 -0400
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-10 00:14 -0400
        Re: IBM system/360 ad antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-06-12 02:31 +0000
          Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-12 07:49 -0700
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-10 12:29 -0700
    Re: IBM system/360 ad rnetzlof@gmail.com - 2020-03-12 15:07 -0700
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-12 20:08 -0400
      Re: IBM system/360 ad Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-03-12 17:27 -0700
        Re: IBM system/360 ad Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-03-12 20:46 -0400
    Re: IBM system/360 ad rnetzlof@gmail.com - 2020-03-12 18:21 -0700

Page 3 of 32 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 … 32  Next page →


#210367

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2020-03-09 16:18 -0700
Message-ID<96671175.605487252.018503.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#210365
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> 
>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 7:50:58 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 5:08:01 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 8:20:53 AM UTC+11, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>> https://archive.org/details/Nations-Business-1964-12/page/n51
>>>>> 
>>>>> Available with up to 8 meg of memory!
>>>>> 
>>>>> (I thought S/360 could handle up to 16 meg?  But maybe in those
>>>>> days no one could see needing more than 8 meg.  Indeed, I think
>>>>> if you wanted that much you had to get the "LCS" which was core
>>>>> but slow core.)
>>> 
>>>> In 1964, that was false advertising.
>>> 
>>> In 1965, the first System/360 machines were delivered.
>>> 
>>> There were adjustments to the initially announced lineup, so "Model
>>> 60" and "Model 70" were replaced by the model 65 and model 75.
>>> 
>>> So the question to ask is: was it possible to order a System/360
>>> Model 75 with 8 megabytes of core storage?
>>> 
>>> Looking at 360/75 Functional Characteristics, the configurations
>>> avalable are the 2075H, 2075I, and 2075J, with 256 Kbytes, 512
>>> Kbytes, and 1 Mbyte respectively. This was 750 nanosecond memory, in
>>> 2365 Processor Storage modules.
>>> 
>>> Also, you could get 8 microsecond external 2631 Core Storage. Model 2
>>> had a capacity of 2 Mb, and you could attach up to four of them.
>>> 
>>> So if you were willing to settle for 8 microsecond memory, yes, you
>>> could have 8 megabytes of core on a system that you could have
>>> ordered on the announcement date.
>> 
>> I don't have my S/360 history in front of me, but if memory serves,
>> the development of the auxiliary core storage went slowly and was not
>> a successful product (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>> 
>> Further, I think the amount of storage available for S/360 varied over
>> time.  For instance, on the low end, I think the model 30 was offered
>> with only 8k but later upgraded to 16k.  I suspect the large end had
>> similar situations.  Anyway, I suspect the "Functional
>> Characteristics" for any given S/360 model would be significantly
>> revised over the years.
>> 
>> I never read Pugh's book on memory, which probably would explain a
>> lot.
> 
> A 30 with 8K?  What good would that be?  A minimum DOS Sysgen would use
> ALL of that, more likely it would gen at around 10-12K.
> 
> As those systems came out, there was some confusion.  A shop I worked in
> was running all their apps on 2 16K 14xx's.  The 30 showed up with 32K.
> It' didn't take long to realize that wasn't going to cut it.  32K was a
> miniumum.  If you wanted to run HLL compilers, you'd be better off with
> 64K.  If you wanted to run more than one job at a time, 64K was the
> minimum.  In a few years, spoolers became common.  Even one job at a
> time required 64K.

The places I worked at all had 32K. A /40 was more likely to have 64K.

> 
> I told an IBM salesman once that IBM had so bollixed up the architecture
> that our application programs were easily twice as large as they were on
> the 14xx.  He checked with his technical people and had to concede the
> point.
> 



-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210370

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-03-09 19:41 -0400
Message-ID<r46k7f$g0p$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#210367
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> 
>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 7:50:58 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 5:08:01 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 8:20:53 AM UTC+11, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/Nations-Business-1964-12/page/n51
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Available with up to 8 meg of memory!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> (I thought S/360 could handle up to 16 meg?  But maybe in those
>>>>>> days no one could see needing more than 8 meg.  Indeed, I think
>>>>>> if you wanted that much you had to get the "LCS" which was core
>>>>>> but slow core.)
>>>> 
>>>>> In 1964, that was false advertising.
>>>> 
>>>> In 1965, the first System/360 machines were delivered.
>>>> 
>>>> There were adjustments to the initially announced lineup, so "Model
>>>> 60" and "Model 70" were replaced by the model 65 and model 75.
>>>> 
>>>> So the question to ask is: was it possible to order a System/360
>>>> Model 75 with 8 megabytes of core storage?
>>>> 
>>>> Looking at 360/75 Functional Characteristics, the configurations
>>>> avalable are the 2075H, 2075I, and 2075J, with 256 Kbytes, 512
>>>> Kbytes, and 1 Mbyte respectively. This was 750 nanosecond memory, in
>>>> 2365 Processor Storage modules.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, you could get 8 microsecond external 2631 Core Storage. Model 2
>>>> had a capacity of 2 Mb, and you could attach up to four of them.
>>>> 
>>>> So if you were willing to settle for 8 microsecond memory, yes, you
>>>> could have 8 megabytes of core on a system that you could have
>>>> ordered on the announcement date.
>>> 
>>> I don't have my S/360 history in front of me, but if memory serves,
>>> the development of the auxiliary core storage went slowly and was not
>>> a successful product (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>>> 
>>> Further, I think the amount of storage available for S/360 varied over
>>> time.  For instance, on the low end, I think the model 30 was offered
>>> with only 8k but later upgraded to 16k.  I suspect the large end had
>>> similar situations.  Anyway, I suspect the "Functional
>>> Characteristics" for any given S/360 model would be significantly
>>> revised over the years.
>>> 
>>> I never read Pugh's book on memory, which probably would explain a
>>> lot.
>> 
>> A 30 with 8K?  What good would that be?  A minimum DOS Sysgen would use
>> ALL of that, more likely it would gen at around 10-12K.
>> 
>> As those systems came out, there was some confusion.  A shop I worked in
>> was running all their apps on 2 16K 14xx's.  The 30 showed up with 32K.
>> It' didn't take long to realize that wasn't going to cut it.  32K was a
>> miniumum.  If you wanted to run HLL compilers, you'd be better off with
>> 64K.  If you wanted to run more than one job at a time, 64K was the
>> minimum.  In a few years, spoolers became common.  Even one job at a
>> time required 64K.
>
> The places I worked at all had 32K. A /40 was more likely to have 64K.

I believe all the 30s I saw with 32K pretty quickly got upgraded to 64K.
One place hired me to do a DOS Sysgen so they could use the 64K they
just got upgraded to.

I ended up spending a very long weekend working out why it wouldn't
work.  After many hours I decoded the boot logic and single stepped
through boot until I got to the part where DOS cleared all memory
256 bytes at a time.

Then I saw the machine check when it first addressed the memory at 32K+1.

Definitely earned my consulting fee for that.

I worked at a few places that got the 3rd party model 30 upgrade that let
the machine address more than 64K.  The 30 was fast enough but 64K
wasn't really adequate for 2 batch regions running COBOL applications.
IBM, as always, was protecting it's income stream.  They must have known
that larger 30s were needed but they really wanted to sell the more
expensive 40, 50, 65s.

A 30 could easily keep 2 card readers and printers running all out.
Probably even 3 or 4.

Later I worked at a mailing operation.  They ran a dozen 1403s at once
but used a 65.

-- 
Dan Espen

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210426

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2020-03-10 12:29 -0700
Message-ID<526116244.605560637.001391.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#210370
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>> 
>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 7:50:58 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 5:08:01 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 8:20:53 AM UTC+11, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/Nations-Business-1964-12/page/n51
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Available with up to 8 meg of memory!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> (I thought S/360 could handle up to 16 meg?  But maybe in those
>>>>>>> days no one could see needing more than 8 meg.  Indeed, I think
>>>>>>> if you wanted that much you had to get the "LCS" which was core
>>>>>>> but slow core.)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> In 1964, that was false advertising.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In 1965, the first System/360 machines were delivered.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There were adjustments to the initially announced lineup, so "Model
>>>>> 60" and "Model 70" were replaced by the model 65 and model 75.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So the question to ask is: was it possible to order a System/360
>>>>> Model 75 with 8 megabytes of core storage?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Looking at 360/75 Functional Characteristics, the configurations
>>>>> avalable are the 2075H, 2075I, and 2075J, with 256 Kbytes, 512
>>>>> Kbytes, and 1 Mbyte respectively. This was 750 nanosecond memory, in
>>>>> 2365 Processor Storage modules.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, you could get 8 microsecond external 2631 Core Storage. Model 2
>>>>> had a capacity of 2 Mb, and you could attach up to four of them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So if you were willing to settle for 8 microsecond memory, yes, you
>>>>> could have 8 megabytes of core on a system that you could have
>>>>> ordered on the announcement date.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't have my S/360 history in front of me, but if memory serves,
>>>> the development of the auxiliary core storage went slowly and was not
>>>> a successful product (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>>>> 
>>>> Further, I think the amount of storage available for S/360 varied over
>>>> time.  For instance, on the low end, I think the model 30 was offered
>>>> with only 8k but later upgraded to 16k.  I suspect the large end had
>>>> similar situations.  Anyway, I suspect the "Functional
>>>> Characteristics" for any given S/360 model would be significantly
>>>> revised over the years.
>>>> 
>>>> I never read Pugh's book on memory, which probably would explain a
>>>> lot.
>>> 
>>> A 30 with 8K?  What good would that be?  A minimum DOS Sysgen would use
>>> ALL of that, more likely it would gen at around 10-12K.
>>> 
>>> As those systems came out, there was some confusion.  A shop I worked in
>>> was running all their apps on 2 16K 14xx's.  The 30 showed up with 32K.
>>> It' didn't take long to realize that wasn't going to cut it.  32K was a
>>> miniumum.  If you wanted to run HLL compilers, you'd be better off with
>>> 64K.  If you wanted to run more than one job at a time, 64K was the
>>> minimum.  In a few years, spoolers became common.  Even one job at a
>>> time required 64K.
>> 
>> The places I worked at all had 32K. A /40 was more likely to have 64K.
> 
> I believe all the 30s I saw with 32K pretty quickly got upgraded to 64K.
> One place hired me to do a DOS Sysgen so they could use the 64K they
> just got upgraded to.
> 
> I ended up spending a very long weekend working out why it wouldn't
> work.  After many hours I decoded the boot logic and single stepped
> through boot until I got to the part where DOS cleared all memory
> 256 bytes at a time.
> 
> Then I saw the machine check when it first addressed the memory at 32K+1.
> 
> Definitely earned my consulting fee for that.

I think there was a jumper that needed to be set for >32K, so maybe someone
installed the memory and forgot the jumper?

> 
> I worked at a few places that got the 3rd party model 30 upgrade that let
> the machine address more than 64K.  The 30 was fast enough but 64K
> wasn't really adequate for 2 batch regions running COBOL applications.
> IBM, as always, was protecting it's income stream.  They must have known
> that larger 30s were needed but they really wanted to sell the more
> expensive 40, 50, 65s.
> 
> A 30 could easily keep 2 card readers and printers running all out.
> Probably even 3 or 4.

Once they got POWER.

> 
> Later I worked at a mailing operation.  They ran a dozen 1403s at once
> but used a 65.
> 



-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210429

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-03-10 19:02 -0400
Message-ID<r496an$lvn$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#210426
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 7:50:58 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 5:08:01 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 8:20:53 AM UTC+11, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/Nations-Business-1964-12/page/n51
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Available with up to 8 meg of memory!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> (I thought S/360 could handle up to 16 meg?  But maybe in those
>>>>>>>> days no one could see needing more than 8 meg.  Indeed, I think
>>>>>>>> if you wanted that much you had to get the "LCS" which was core
>>>>>>>> but slow core.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In 1964, that was false advertising.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In 1965, the first System/360 machines were delivered.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There were adjustments to the initially announced lineup, so "Model
>>>>>> 60" and "Model 70" were replaced by the model 65 and model 75.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So the question to ask is: was it possible to order a System/360
>>>>>> Model 75 with 8 megabytes of core storage?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Looking at 360/75 Functional Characteristics, the configurations
>>>>>> avalable are the 2075H, 2075I, and 2075J, with 256 Kbytes, 512
>>>>>> Kbytes, and 1 Mbyte respectively. This was 750 nanosecond memory, in
>>>>>> 2365 Processor Storage modules.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also, you could get 8 microsecond external 2631 Core Storage. Model 2
>>>>>> had a capacity of 2 Mb, and you could attach up to four of them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So if you were willing to settle for 8 microsecond memory, yes, you
>>>>>> could have 8 megabytes of core on a system that you could have
>>>>>> ordered on the announcement date.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't have my S/360 history in front of me, but if memory serves,
>>>>> the development of the auxiliary core storage went slowly and was not
>>>>> a successful product (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Further, I think the amount of storage available for S/360 varied over
>>>>> time.  For instance, on the low end, I think the model 30 was offered
>>>>> with only 8k but later upgraded to 16k.  I suspect the large end had
>>>>> similar situations.  Anyway, I suspect the "Functional
>>>>> Characteristics" for any given S/360 model would be significantly
>>>>> revised over the years.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I never read Pugh's book on memory, which probably would explain a
>>>>> lot.
>>>> 
>>>> A 30 with 8K?  What good would that be?  A minimum DOS Sysgen would use
>>>> ALL of that, more likely it would gen at around 10-12K.
>>>> 
>>>> As those systems came out, there was some confusion.  A shop I worked in
>>>> was running all their apps on 2 16K 14xx's.  The 30 showed up with 32K.
>>>> It' didn't take long to realize that wasn't going to cut it.  32K was a
>>>> miniumum.  If you wanted to run HLL compilers, you'd be better off with
>>>> 64K.  If you wanted to run more than one job at a time, 64K was the
>>>> minimum.  In a few years, spoolers became common.  Even one job at a
>>>> time required 64K.
>>> 
>>> The places I worked at all had 32K. A /40 was more likely to have 64K.
>> 
>> I believe all the 30s I saw with 32K pretty quickly got upgraded to 64K.
>> One place hired me to do a DOS Sysgen so they could use the 64K they
>> just got upgraded to.
>> 
>> I ended up spending a very long weekend working out why it wouldn't
>> work.  After many hours I decoded the boot logic and single stepped
>> through boot until I got to the part where DOS cleared all memory
>> 256 bytes at a time.
>> 
>> Then I saw the machine check when it first addressed the memory at 32K+1.
>> 
>> Definitely earned my consulting fee for that.
>
> I think there was a jumper that needed to be set for >32K, so maybe someone
> installed the memory and forgot the jumper?

Wow, this was years ago, I'd guess 1969,
but that rings a bell.  I think you got it.

The memory was installed by IBM, the IBM CE came in and fixed it.
All we were seeing is the sysgen would work, but any attempt to boot
locked up the machine.
The reference the the bad memory caused a machine check and
all that did was try to run a non-existent machine check
PSW.  There was nothing in memory to even point at the
failing instruction.  Only single stepping thru the long core
clearing process turned on the lights.

-- 
Dan Espen

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210446

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2020-03-11 12:09 -0700
Message-ID<8f5b73e3-f50a-4450-82f7-05df28fff17a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#210426
On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 3:29:59 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> >> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> >>> 
> >>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 7:50:58 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 5:08:01 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 8:20:53 AM UTC+11, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/Nations-Business-1964-12/page/n51
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Available with up to 8 meg of memory!
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> (I thought S/360 could handle up to 16 meg?  But maybe in those
> >>>>>>> days no one could see needing more than 8 meg.  Indeed, I think
> >>>>>>> if you wanted that much you had to get the "LCS" which was core
> >>>>>>> but slow core.)
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> In 1964, that was false advertising.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> In 1965, the first System/360 machines were delivered.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> There were adjustments to the initially announced lineup, so "Model
> >>>>> 60" and "Model 70" were replaced by the model 65 and model 75.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> So the question to ask is: was it possible to order a System/360
> >>>>> Model 75 with 8 megabytes of core storage?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Looking at 360/75 Functional Characteristics, the configurations
> >>>>> avalable are the 2075H, 2075I, and 2075J, with 256 Kbytes, 512
> >>>>> Kbytes, and 1 Mbyte respectively. This was 750 nanosecond memory, in
> >>>>> 2365 Processor Storage modules.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Also, you could get 8 microsecond external 2631 Core Storage. Model 2
> >>>>> had a capacity of 2 Mb, and you could attach up to four of them.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> So if you were willing to settle for 8 microsecond memory, yes, you
> >>>>> could have 8 megabytes of core on a system that you could have
> >>>>> ordered on the announcement date.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I don't have my S/360 history in front of me, but if memory serves,
> >>>> the development of the auxiliary core storage went slowly and was not
> >>>> a successful product (please correct me if I'm wrong).
> >>>> 
> >>>> Further, I think the amount of storage available for S/360 varied over
> >>>> time.  For instance, on the low end, I think the model 30 was offered
> >>>> with only 8k but later upgraded to 16k.  I suspect the large end had
> >>>> similar situations.  Anyway, I suspect the "Functional
> >>>> Characteristics" for any given S/360 model would be significantly
> >>>> revised over the years.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I never read Pugh's book on memory, which probably would explain a
> >>>> lot.
> >>> 
> >>> A 30 with 8K?  What good would that be?  A minimum DOS Sysgen would use
> >>> ALL of that, more likely it would gen at around 10-12K.
> >>> 
> >>> As those systems came out, there was some confusion.  A shop I worked in
> >>> was running all their apps on 2 16K 14xx's.  The 30 showed up with 32K.
> >>> It' didn't take long to realize that wasn't going to cut it.  32K was a
> >>> miniumum.  If you wanted to run HLL compilers, you'd be better off with
> >>> 64K.  If you wanted to run more than one job at a time, 64K was the
> >>> minimum.  In a few years, spoolers became common.  Even one job at a
> >>> time required 64K.
> >> 
> >> The places I worked at all had 32K. A /40 was more likely to have 64K.
> > 
> > I believe all the 30s I saw with 32K pretty quickly got upgraded to 64K.
> > One place hired me to do a DOS Sysgen so they could use the 64K they
> > just got upgraded to.
> > 
> > I ended up spending a very long weekend working out why it wouldn't
> > work.  After many hours I decoded the boot logic and single stepped
> > through boot until I got to the part where DOS cleared all memory
> > 256 bytes at a time.
> > 
> > Then I saw the machine check when it first addressed the memory at 32K+1.
> > 
> > Definitely earned my consulting fee for that.
> 
> I think there was a jumper that needed to be set for >32K, so maybe someone
> installed the memory and forgot the jumper?
> 
> > 
> > I worked at a few places that got the 3rd party model 30 upgrade that let
> > the machine address more than 64K.  The 30 was fast enough but 64K
> > wasn't really adequate for 2 batch regions running COBOL applications.
> > IBM, as always, was protecting it's income stream.  They must have known
> > that larger 30s were needed but they really wanted to sell the more
> > expensive 40, 50, 65s.
> > 
> > A 30 could easily keep 2 card readers and printers running all out.
> > Probably even 3 or 4.
> 
> Once they got POWER.
> 

Our 360-40 site installed POWER in a foreground partition
It was easy to installed and ran fine.  The productivity
improvement was amazing--almost doubling throughput.  No
programming changes to our applications were required.

I was amazed at how it somehow captured all unit record
I/O and stored it on disk for later handling, automatically.

Before POWER, it was obvious our CPU was I/O bound.
When reading and printing at full speed, the CPU wait light
was almost continuously on, indicating there were plenty of
CPU cycles available.

Fast forward to the future, there was a check printing
application in which the spooler was bypassed and
the checks printed 'hot'.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210456

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2020-03-11 14:52 -0700
Message-ID<1199360087.605655982.191764.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#210446
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 3:29:59 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> 
>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 7:50:58 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 5:08:01 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 8:20:53 AM UTC+11, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/Nations-Business-1964-12/page/n51
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Available with up to 8 meg of memory!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (I thought S/360 could handle up to 16 meg?  But maybe in those
>>>>>>>>> days no one could see needing more than 8 meg.  Indeed, I think
>>>>>>>>> if you wanted that much you had to get the "LCS" which was core
>>>>>>>>> but slow core.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In 1964, that was false advertising.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In 1965, the first System/360 machines were delivered.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There were adjustments to the initially announced lineup, so "Model
>>>>>>> 60" and "Model 70" were replaced by the model 65 and model 75.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So the question to ask is: was it possible to order a System/360
>>>>>>> Model 75 with 8 megabytes of core storage?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Looking at 360/75 Functional Characteristics, the configurations
>>>>>>> avalable are the 2075H, 2075I, and 2075J, with 256 Kbytes, 512
>>>>>>> Kbytes, and 1 Mbyte respectively. This was 750 nanosecond memory, in
>>>>>>> 2365 Processor Storage modules.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also, you could get 8 microsecond external 2631 Core Storage. Model 2
>>>>>>> had a capacity of 2 Mb, and you could attach up to four of them.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So if you were willing to settle for 8 microsecond memory, yes, you
>>>>>>> could have 8 megabytes of core on a system that you could have
>>>>>>> ordered on the announcement date.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't have my S/360 history in front of me, but if memory serves,
>>>>>> the development of the auxiliary core storage went slowly and was not
>>>>>> a successful product (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Further, I think the amount of storage available for S/360 varied over
>>>>>> time.  For instance, on the low end, I think the model 30 was offered
>>>>>> with only 8k but later upgraded to 16k.  I suspect the large end had
>>>>>> similar situations.  Anyway, I suspect the "Functional
>>>>>> Characteristics" for any given S/360 model would be significantly
>>>>>> revised over the years.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I never read Pugh's book on memory, which probably would explain a
>>>>>> lot.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A 30 with 8K?  What good would that be?  A minimum DOS Sysgen would use
>>>>> ALL of that, more likely it would gen at around 10-12K.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As those systems came out, there was some confusion.  A shop I worked in
>>>>> was running all their apps on 2 16K 14xx's.  The 30 showed up with 32K.
>>>>> It' didn't take long to realize that wasn't going to cut it.  32K was a
>>>>> miniumum.  If you wanted to run HLL compilers, you'd be better off with
>>>>> 64K.  If you wanted to run more than one job at a time, 64K was the
>>>>> minimum.  In a few years, spoolers became common.  Even one job at a
>>>>> time required 64K.
>>>> 
>>>> The places I worked at all had 32K. A /40 was more likely to have 64K.
>>> 
>>> I believe all the 30s I saw with 32K pretty quickly got upgraded to 64K.
>>> One place hired me to do a DOS Sysgen so they could use the 64K they
>>> just got upgraded to.
>>> 
>>> I ended up spending a very long weekend working out why it wouldn't
>>> work.  After many hours I decoded the boot logic and single stepped
>>> through boot until I got to the part where DOS cleared all memory
>>> 256 bytes at a time.
>>> 
>>> Then I saw the machine check when it first addressed the memory at 32K+1.
>>> 
>>> Definitely earned my consulting fee for that.
>> 
>> I think there was a jumper that needed to be set for >32K, so maybe someone
>> installed the memory and forgot the jumper?
>> 
>>> 
>>> I worked at a few places that got the 3rd party model 30 upgrade that let
>>> the machine address more than 64K.  The 30 was fast enough but 64K
>>> wasn't really adequate for 2 batch regions running COBOL applications.
>>> IBM, as always, was protecting it's income stream.  They must have known
>>> that larger 30s were needed but they really wanted to sell the more
>>> expensive 40, 50, 65s.
>>> 
>>> A 30 could easily keep 2 card readers and printers running all out.
>>> Probably even 3 or 4.
>> 
>> Once they got POWER.
>> 
> 
> Our 360-40 site installed POWER in a foreground partition
> It was easy to installed and ran fine.  The productivity
> improvement was amazing--almost doubling throughput.  No
> programming changes to our applications were required.
> 
> I was amazed at how it somehow captured all unit record
> I/O and stored it on disk for later handling, automatically.
> 
> Before POWER, it was obvious our CPU was I/O bound.
> When reading and printing at full speed, the CPU wait light
> was almost continuously on, indicating there were plenty of
> CPU cycles available.
> 
> Fast forward to the future, there was a check printing
> application in which the spooler was bypassed and
> the checks printed 'hot'.
> 
> 

Typical. The ones I’ve seen the program would print a dummy check of all
“X”s for alignment and then ask the operator to verify and reply if OK, or
adjust and reprint again. None of this can be done thru a spooler (AFAIK).

-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210492

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2020-03-12 19:08 +0000
Message-ID<r4e1bf218p5@news2.newsguy.com>
In reply to#210456
On 2020-03-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> 
>> Fast forward to the future, there was a check printing
>> application in which the spooler was bypassed and
>> the checks printed 'hot'.
>
> Typical. The ones I’ve seen the program would print a dummy check of all
> “X”s for alignment and then ask the operator to verify and reply if OK, or
> adjust and reprint again. None of this can be done thru a spooler (AFAIK).

The fun began when you tried to ensure that the computer-generated
cheque number lined up with the pre-printed ones on the cheques.
You'd pray that there were no forms jams and that the operator
didn't need too many tries to get things aligned.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210495

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-03-12 16:46 -0400
Message-ID<r4e73n$b05$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#210492
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-03-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Fast forward to the future, there was a check printing
>>> application in which the spooler was bypassed and
>>> the checks printed 'hot'.
>>
>> Typical. The ones I’ve seen the program would print a dummy check of all
>> “X”s for alignment and then ask the operator to verify and reply if OK, or
>> adjust and reprint again. None of this can be done thru a spooler (AFAIK).
>
> The fun began when you tried to ensure that the computer-generated
> cheque number lined up with the pre-printed ones on the cheques.
> You'd pray that there were no forms jams and that the operator
> didn't need too many tries to get things aligned.

I could not convince payroll that computer printed check numbers
instead of pre-printed would work.

They did keep track of every blank check by accounting for the check
numbers.  So perhaps they had a point.

-- 
Dan Espen

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210499

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2020-03-12 15:07 -0700
Message-ID<63cbe247-86b9-44a8-a7d1-a06e43340abd@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#210495
On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 4:46:48 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> 
> > On 2020-03-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Fast forward to the future, there was a check printing
> >>> application in which the spooler was bypassed and
> >>> the checks printed 'hot'.
> >>
> >> Typical. The ones I’ve seen the program would print a dummy check of all
> >> “X”s for alignment and then ask the operator to verify and reply if OK, or
> >> adjust and reprint again. None of this can be done thru a spooler (AFAIK).
> >
> > The fun began when you tried to ensure that the computer-generated
> > cheque number lined up with the pre-printed ones on the cheques.
> > You'd pray that there were no forms jams and that the operator
> > didn't need too many tries to get things aligned.
> 
> I could not convince payroll that computer printed check numbers
> instead of pre-printed would work.
> 
> They did keep track of every blank check by accounting for the check
> numbers.  So perhaps they had a point.

I think auditors like to track by the pre-printed check numbers.
Everywhere I worked the operators had to account for every single
check, both used to align the printer, other waste, and actually
printed.

In some applications the pre-printed check number was to match
the computer generated check number.

Checks had a lot of controls.  Apparently they were necessary
since forgery and theft could be a problem.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210447

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2020-03-11 12:10 -0700
Message-ID<79f34985-f7b8-4e52-be45-ab30d1ceda18@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#210426
On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 3:29:59 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:

> I think there was a jumper that needed to be set for >32K, so maybe someone
> installed the memory and forgot the jumper?

When we added memory to our 360-40, they screwed up the jumper
and memory access was screwy until it was fixed.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210374

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2020-03-10 01:06 +0000
Message-ID<r46p6t41n8@news1.newsguy.com>
In reply to#210365
On 2020-03-09, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> A 30 with 8K?  What good would that be?  A minimum DOS Sysgen would use
> ALL of that, more likely it would gen at around 10-12K.
>
> As those systems came out, there was some confusion.  A shop I worked in
> was running all their apps on 2 16K 14xx's.  The 30 showed up with 32K.
> It' didn't take long to realize that wasn't going to cut it.  32K was a
> miniumum.  If you wanted to run HLL compilers, you'd be better off with
> 64K.  If you wanted to run more than one job at a time, 64K was the
> minimum.  In a few years, spoolers became common.  Even one job at a
> time required 64K.
>
> I told an IBM salesman once that IBM had so bollixed up the architecture
> that our application programs were easily twice as large as they were on
> the 14xx.  He checked with his technical people and had to concede the
> point.

Or maybe it was like the Univac salesmen who consistently low-balled
memory requirements to get a low bid.  Many customers found themselves
buying memory expansions they were told they'd never need, after their
new installation bogged down.  Eventually even the documentation admitted
to memory requirements of various packages being more than they originally
claimed.

Besides, the memory size limits on the various 360 processors were
largely self-imposed.  At worst it took a bit of work with a soldering
iron to work around them.  I once used a 360/30 with 128K of core; the
switch and indicator for the extra address bit had a definite home-brewed
look to them.

Greyhound computer bought up a lot of 360/30 processors that had come
off lease, and hung as much as 512K on them.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210417

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2020-03-10 11:33 -0700
Message-ID<c1f58432-16ad-4176-b33d-ce1796895912@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#210374
On Monday, March 9, 2020 at 9:06:55 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Or maybe it was like the Univac salesmen who consistently low-balled
> memory requirements to get a low bid.  Many customers found themselves
> buying memory expansions they were told they'd never need, after their
> new installation bogged down.  Eventually even the documentation admitted
> to memory requirements of various packages being more than they originally
> claimed.

They say IBM lowballed, too (see above).

FWIW, our 90/30 was adequately configured.  I think we had 256k.
Of course, we weren't doing very much online work, it was mostly
batch and single stream.


> Besides, the memory size limits on the various 360 processors were
> largely self-imposed.  At worst it took a bit of work with a soldering
> iron to work around them.  I once used a 360/30 with 128K of core; the
> switch and indicator for the extra address bit had a definite home-brewed
> look to them.



> Greyhound computer bought up a lot of 360/30 processors that had come
> off lease, and hung as much as 512K on them.

Anyone know how a bus company got into computers?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210424

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2020-03-10 18:48 +0000
Message-ID<r48ndt0236c@news2.newsguy.com>
In reply to#210417
On 2020-03-10, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Monday, March 9, 2020 at 9:06:55 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Or maybe it was like the Univac salesmen who consistently low-balled
>> memory requirements to get a low bid.  Many customers found themselves
>> buying memory expansions they were told they'd never need, after their
>> new installation bogged down.  Eventually even the documentation admitted
>> to memory requirements of various packages being more than they originally
>> claimed.
>
> They say IBM lowballed, too (see above).
>
> FWIW, our 90/30 was adequately configured.  I think we had 256k.
> Of course, we weren't doing very much online work, it was mostly
> batch and single stream.

Luxury!  I don't know whether any 90/30 shop here in Vancouver had
256K.  Most were 192K; there were some 128K shops, but they were
uncomfortably tight.

This didn't stop Univac from advertising that their equivalent of
CICS (confusingly called IMS/90) could run in as little as 32K.
The fine print mentioned that this was for a system running three
terminals doing simple inquiries into a single ISAM file.  And in
subsequent releases they admitted you needed 64K for even that.

(Actually, make that "65K".  Since this is sales literature,
the "salesman's K" is used throughout.  Where else but in the
wild and wacky world of marketing could you add 32 and 32 to
get 65?)

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210425

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2020-03-10 12:09 -0700
Message-ID<5e57be35-11b7-470c-9538-4d5ebb8533bd@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#210424
On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 2:48:38 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> This didn't stop Univac from advertising that their equivalent of
> CICS (confusingly called IMS/90) could run in as little as 32K.
> The fine print mentioned that this was for a system running three
> terminals doing simple inquiries into a single ISAM file.  And in
> subsequent releases they admitted you needed 64K for even that.

I don't recall the name of the online monitor Univac
provided us, but it was a total piece of crap.  We never
could run anything on it.  Unlike even early versions of
CICS, it required extensive hex and binary coding for
both the screen maps and applications.

We had training at Univac HQ and that was crap too.  The
instructor was unprepared.  There was no computer time
available as needed.  Last minute arrangements were rushed.

I was shocked Univac would offer something to a customer
so crappy.

I was too low on the totem pole to know background,
but I didn't quite understand the point of the 90 series
product line.  Unlike other Univac products, it was a
byte machine like a S/360.  But even though it was similar
to a S/360 architecture, it wasn't marketed as such.
So, it really didn't fit in the Univac world.  We had
conflicts where others would code in ways that cause
abends--they didn't understand you needed a carriage 
control and couldn't have spaces in a numeric field
in the 360 world.  They didn't understand ISAM.


http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/series_90/Univac_90_30_System_Brochure_Mar74.pdf

I think Univac would've done better if they just marketed
it as a S/360 compatible box.

As mentioned, the only positive I saw out of the whole
experience was that Univac personnel were friendly nice
people, more down to earth than IBM people.

(I heard a few months after I left that employer they ditched
the Univac and got a different machine.  A new director also 
fired most of the staff.  Glad I left early.)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210428

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2020-03-10 22:46 +0000
Message-ID<r495cd01478@news1.newsguy.com>
In reply to#210425
On 2020-03-10, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 2:48:38 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> This didn't stop Univac from advertising that their equivalent of
>> CICS (confusingly called IMS/90) could run in as little as 32K.
>> The fine print mentioned that this was for a system running three
>> terminals doing simple inquiries into a single ISAM file.  And in
>> subsequent releases they admitted you needed 64K for even that.
>
> I don't recall the name of the online monitor Univac
> provided us, but it was a total piece of crap.  We never
> could run anything on it.

That would have been IMS.  I described it as being designed
to maximize system and programmer activity.  Every time you
sneezed you had to regenerate it, a process that consumed
45 minutes and spat out a couple of hundred pages of largely
useless listings.  Testing was limited to after hours, since
you'd have to take over the entire user network.  I eventually
wrote a single user-simulator that would read an IMSgen deck
and configure itself at startup (in approximately zero seconds),
and which only took over the programmer's network (which ran on
a different set of lines with a totally different protocol).
This meant I could run quick tests during the day, if I could
persuade the rest of the programming staff to go for coffee.

Allinson-Ross, in Toronto, developed a monitor called TIP/30,
which was easier to use - and it could run on the same network
as the programming utilities, which made life a lot easier.
TIP/30 had a programming editor which IIRC was based on an
editor from Bell Labs, and you also had online access to
spool files, which was nice for reviewing test runs.

> Unlike even early versions of CICS, it required extensive
> hex and binary coding for both the screen maps and applications.

Ah, yes... however, DICE (device-independent control expressions)
simplified things somewhat.  I got pretty adept at building and
dissecting control strings in COBOL68.  (COBOL74's STRING and
UNSTRING verbs were a godsend.)

> We had training at Univac HQ and that was crap too.  The
> instructor was unprepared.  There was no computer time
> available as needed.  Last minute arrangements were rushed.

I once went to a JCL cource at Univac, and was asking so
many questions that the instructor had me get up and run
part of the class.  :-)

> I was shocked Univac would offer something to a customer
> so crappy.
>
> I was too low on the totem pole to know background,
> but I didn't quite understand the point of the 90 series
> product line.  Unlike other Univac products, it was a
> byte machine like a S/360.  But even though it was similar
> to a S/360 architecture, it wasn't marketed as such.

I think there was a lot of the NIH syndrome involved.
I remember one sales rally which I was required to attend;
the presenter was going on about "product differentiation",
which I took to mean: "Make it different, even if it means
screwing it up."

> So, it really didn't fit in the Univac world.  We had
> conflicts where others would code in ways that cause
> abends--they didn't understand you needed a carriage 
> control and couldn't have spaces in a numeric field
> in the 360 world.  They didn't understand ISAM.

I never did get a chance to play with the 1100 series machines.
They were a totally different beast, handled by a different
department within the Univac office.

> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/series_90/Univac_90_30_System_Brochure_Mar74.pdf
>
> I think Univac would've done better if they just marketed
> it as a S/360 compatible box.

It was definitely a workalike.  The 90/30's non-privileged
instruction set was bit-for-bit identical with that of the
360/50.  The I/O architecture and most privileged instructions
were completely different, though.

> As mentioned, the only positive I saw out of the whole
> experience was that Univac personnel were friendly nice
> people, more down to earth than IBM people.

+1

> (I heard a few months after I left that employer they ditched
> the Univac and got a different machine.  A new director also 
> fired most of the staff.  Glad I left early.)

Yup, you dodged that bullet... :-)

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210448

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2020-03-11 12:18 -0700
Message-ID<05084293-cadb-4b7b-a103-96e2e36bfce5@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#210428
On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 at 6:47:02 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> > I think Univac would've done better if they just marketed
> > it as a S/360 compatible box.
> 
> It was definitely a workalike.  The 90/30's non-privileged
> instruction set was bit-for-bit identical with that of the
> 360/50.  The I/O architecture and most privileged instructions
> were completely different, though.

Hmm...according to Wikipedia, the 90 series was a popular
and profitable product line for Univac.  Apparently it
was derived from both the 9700 series and RCA's Spectra
series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_Series_90


For customers, a key issue is cost.  My guess was that
our 90/30 was approximately the same as a 370-135 but without
virtual storage.  My guess is that Univac was cheaper, maybe 
a lot cheaper than IBM.

But, as mentioned, that particular employer didn't seem very
sure of what the wanted to do on the machine beyond some
statistical reporting.

As mentioned, they brought in a variety of COBOL programs
but none of them worked due to the byte/word incompatibility.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210450

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2020-03-11 19:49 +0000
Message-ID<r4bfcp02aoe@news3.newsguy.com>
In reply to#210448
On 2020-03-11, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> As mentioned, they brought in a variety of COBOL programs
> but none of them worked due to the byte/word incompatibility.

This would make it just as hard to convert programs from an
1100-series machine to a 360 as to a 90/30.  The issue was the
1100's word-based architecture.  Converting between 90/30 and
360, or earlier Univac 360-lookalikes, was fairly simple, at
least from the standpoint of data files.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#210454

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2020-03-11 13:11 -0700
Message-ID<5ceb1d3d-7e0e-4a14-a9bf-68a59817d5dd@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#210450
On Wednesday, March 11, 2020 at 3:50:51 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-03-11, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> 
> > As mentioned, they brought in a variety of COBOL programs
> > but none of them worked due to the byte/word incompatibility.
> 
> This would make it just as hard to convert programs from an
> 1100-series machine to a 360 as to a 90/30.  The issue was the
> 1100's word-based architecture.  Converting between 90/30 and
> 360, or earlier Univac 360-lookalikes, was fairly simple, at
> least from the standpoint of data files.

It was hard converting RPG programs from the 9700 to 90/30.

I don't know if object or load decks from the 90/30 would
run on a System/360, but my guess is that recompiling
would be easy.

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#210491

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2020-03-12 19:08 +0000
Message-ID<r4e1be118p5@news2.newsguy.com>
In reply to#210454
On 2020-03-11, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 11, 2020 at 3:50:51 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2020-03-11, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> As mentioned, they brought in a variety of COBOL programs
>>> but none of them worked due to the byte/word incompatibility.
>> 
>> This would make it just as hard to convert programs from an
>> 1100-series machine to a 360 as to a 90/30.  The issue was the
>> 1100's word-based architecture.  Converting between 90/30 and
>> 360, or earlier Univac 360-lookalikes, was fairly simple, at
>> least from the standpoint of data files.
>
> It was hard converting RPG programs from the 9700 to 90/30.

I once converted a set of RPG programs from an IBM System/38
to OS/3.  These were 3000-line interactive monsters that
proved that the world had forgotten what RPG stood for.
It was not fun.

> I don't know if object or load decks from the 90/30 would
> run on a System/360,

Definitely not.  Different format, different ABIs.

> but my guess is that recompiling would be easy.

Yup.  A few system-specific features (particularly the H card),
but otherwise things were pretty much the same.

I once converted a fairly large assembly-language batch program
from OS/3 to DOS/VS.  Aside from the different APIs (e.g. I/O),
it wasn't too difficult.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

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#210494

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-03-12 16:42 -0400
Message-ID<r4e6r4$b05$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#210491
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-03-11, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 11, 2020 at 3:50:51 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2020-03-11, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> As mentioned, they brought in a variety of COBOL programs
>>>> but none of them worked due to the byte/word incompatibility.
>>> 
>>> This would make it just as hard to convert programs from an
>>> 1100-series machine to a 360 as to a 90/30.  The issue was the
>>> 1100's word-based architecture.  Converting between 90/30 and
>>> 360, or earlier Univac 360-lookalikes, was fairly simple, at
>>> least from the standpoint of data files.
>>
>> It was hard converting RPG programs from the 9700 to 90/30.
>
> I once converted a set of RPG programs from an IBM System/38
> to OS/3.  These were 3000-line interactive monsters that
> proved that the world had forgotten what RPG stood for.
> It was not fun.
>
>> I don't know if object or load decks from the 90/30 would
>> run on a System/360,
>
> Definitely not.  Different format, different ABIs.
>
>> but my guess is that recompiling would be easy.
>
> Yup.  A few system-specific features (particularly the H card),
> but otherwise things were pretty much the same.
>
> I once converted a fairly large assembly-language batch program
> from OS/3 to DOS/VS.  Aside from the different APIs (e.g. I/O),
> it wasn't too difficult.

Where you would definitely get in trouble is in screen read/write.
That has to be the least compatible thing in the computer industry.
IBM z systems have a slew of ways to do screen I/O, none of them
compatible.  Pics CICS, IMS/DC, ISPF, TSO, VTAM, they're all
different and not close to compatible.

Even in the Linux world we have Qt, Gtk, Tk, Curses.
This appears to be unsolved science too, Qt and Gtk keep coming out with
new semi-compatible versions.

So, I had to move a bunch of interactive stuff from IBM S/34 (similar to
the 38 mentioned above) to Wang/VS.  I was able to take the S/34 source
screen definitions and write a compatible interpreter for Wang/VS.
The application was COBOL and it moved with very little work.  If I had
to do the screens over it would have been a much bigger job.

-- 
Dan Espen

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