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The Return Of Cassette Tape

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  The Return Of Cassette Tape Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-23 23:43 +0000
    Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-24 02:47 +0000
      Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-25 11:25 +0100
        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 20:34 +0800
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? jerryab <jerryab@juno.com> - 2026-08-25 09:39 -0500
          [OT] Arguably unreasonable crossposts (was: Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards?) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-25 18:37 +0100
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 05:16 +0000
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 19:47 +0800
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? JJ <jj4public@gmail.com> - 2026-08-26 16:42 +0700
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 19:44 +0800
              Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-08-28 08:05 -0700
                Re: The Return Of .... ink+pen+paper? clay tablet? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 10:23 +0800
              Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> - 2026-08-28 11:39 -0400
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-08-28 13:07 -0700
                  Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-28 17:36 -0500
                    Re: The Return Of ... Dark Age? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 10:33 +0800
                  Re: The Return Of .... monks laboriously copying a manuscript by hand? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 10:26 +0800
                  Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-29 22:38 +0200
                    Re: The Return Of ... replication old things? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:43 +0800
                    Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-29 22:02 +0000
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-28 22:20 +0000
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-29 03:51 -0400
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape ... and punch cards? Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2026-08-26 19:50 +1000
            Re: The Return Of .... Time of creation? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 10:36 +0800
        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-25 21:35 +0000
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-26 01:34 +0200
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 05:23 +0000
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 05:21 +0000
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-27 12:02 -0400
              Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 21:12 +0000
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-08-27 14:18 -0700
                  Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-27 21:48 +0000
        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 05:14 +0000
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape SpallsHurgenson(NG) <user14325@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-26 15:02 +0000
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-26 18:54 +0200
              Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 00:48 +0000
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-27 08:39 +0200
                  Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 21:10 +0000
              Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape SpallsHurgenson(NG) <user14325@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-28 14:53 +0000
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-28 22:22 +0000
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-lo6-this> - 2026-08-29 08:39 -0700
                  Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-29 15:47 -0400
                    Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-08-29 20:16 +0000
                      Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 21:07 +0000
                      Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-30 12:18 -0400
                        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-08-30 20:36 +0000
                          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-31 03:09 +0000
                            Connector, plugs and socket naming (was: Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-31 10:18 +0100
                              Re: Connector, plugs and socket naming (was: Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-08-31 10:18 +0000
                                Re: [CORRECTION] Connector, plugs and socket naming (was: Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-08-31 10:24 +0000
                  Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape SpallsHurgenson(NG) <user14325@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-29 22:31 +0000
                    Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-30 10:24 +0100
                      Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-30 20:00 +0000
                    Old cables and other things to hoard (Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-08-30 06:48 -0700
                      Re: Old cables and other things to hoard (Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-30 15:49 +0000
                        Re: Old cables and other things to hoard (Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-08-30 12:48 -0700
                          Re: Old cables and other things to hoard (Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-31 13:04 +0200
                      Re: Old cables and other things to hoard (Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape) scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2026-09-11 15:16 +0000
                    Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-31 09:22 -0700
                Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2026-09-11 14:46 +0000
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-27 01:22 +0000
        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> - 2026-08-28 01:09 -0700
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-08-28 11:43 +0000
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 08:45 -0700
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-28 21:35 +0000
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-29 00:20 +0000
            Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-29 09:55 -0400
    Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-25 15:07 -0400
      Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-26 05:13 +0000
        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-26 18:08 +0000
          Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 00:45 +0000
        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-27 11:58 -0400
    Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-08-26 14:11 +0000
      Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-27 00:52 +0000
        Re: The Return Of Cassette Tape "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-27 08:44 +0200

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#235397

On Wed, 26 Aug 2026 15:02:55 GMT, SpallsHurgenson(NG) wrote:

> What really killed Zip-disk usage for me and mine wasn't better
> storage mediums like optical disks... instead, it was networking.

You don’t remember the “click of death”?

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#235409

"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:

> On 24 Aug 2026 02:47:06 GMT
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2026 23:43:49 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> 
>> > My immediate thought is: “you got to be kidding, right?” Not that I have
>> > personal experience of such usage, but everything I’ve heard says that
>> > they were clunky, slow, unreliable, frustrating, and basically a sheer
>> > pain to use as a computer data/program storage medium. Who would want to
>> > willingly suffer through those days again?
>> 
>> After seeing an ad for the Sinclair ZX-81 which was under 100 USD in the 
>> kit form, I had to see what you got for that money. 32 character wide 
>> display via a RF modulator and your TV, a membrane keyboard, and program 
>> storage on a Walkman cassette player. It wasn't a high point in my 
>> computing experience. It did make an adequate doorstop.
>> 
>> It's not a fair comparison because of the price but the Trash-80 and 
>> Commodore PET 4000 series had moved away from tape by then. iirc the 
>> VIC-20 went back to the purpose build external cassette drive from the PET 
>> 2000 series.
>> 
>> The good old days...  
>
>
> So where's the floppy drive revival?!!

Some of us never stopped using floppies. I can count the number of
floppies that have gone bad over the years on one hand. I lost
count on the number of flash drives that got damaged one way or another
or refused to write files or corrupt file system or files or mount.

CD/DVD's have slowly shown signs of decay. Some old discs won't
load or mount - especially the discs that were made in the 2000s. My
old, original mp3 backups-on-cd that I downloaded off napster are long
lost. Those discs were unreadable a few years ago. Some time ago, a
neighbor reported to me that a dvd of home videos no longer loads on his
player. I suggested taking it to a professional data restoration service.

To me, floppies are still king for file-types that can be kept at a
small size. 

It would be fascinating to see a homebrew audio tape backup system
developed today for modern computers. I did a cursory bit of reading, a
ninety-minute tape could hold over 950mb of raw data @ 16bit/44.1kHz.

For documents and text files this would be functional. It would also
give me a reason to crack open a few piles of unused tape bought years
ago. 

--
Daniel
sysop  | air & wave bbs
finger | info@bbs.airandwave.net

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#235410

On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 01:09:05 -0700, Daniel wrote:

> CD/DVD's have slowly shown signs of decay. Some old discs won't load or
> mount - especially the discs that were made in the 2000s. My old,
> original mp3 backups-on-cd that I downloaded off napster are long lost.
> Those discs were unreadable a few years ago. Some time ago, a neighbor
> reported to me that a dvd of home videos no longer loads on his player.
> I suggested taking it to a professional data restoration service.

I agree. I checked and recovered most of my archive CDs from that era.

I found that dvdisaster got most of them OK. I now use dvdisaster to write 
ECC data to all CDs/DVDs that I write, costing me about 20% of the space. 
But it works - I had at a CD with a Swiss Army knife, then was able to 
recover all the data!

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#235418

On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 01:09:05 -0700
Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> wrote:

> It would be fascinating to see a homebrew audio tape backup system
> developed today for modern computers. I did a cursory bit of reading,
> a ninety-minute tape could hold over 950mb of raw data @ 16bit/
> 44.1kHz.

...which would be great, if cassette tape had the frequency response to
faithfully reproduce a 44.1 KHz signal at 16-bit accuracy (96 dB S/N.)
Actual cassette response is more along the lines of 12-19 KHz and 50-67
dB, per someone on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28962169
They estimate the effective maximum data rate as somewhere from 199-422
Kbps, compared to CD audio's 1.4112 Mbps - still a reasonable amount of
data, but off by a factor of 3-7x. Then, of course, there's degradation
over time...

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#235423

On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 01:09:05 -0700, Daniel wrote:

> It would be fascinating to see a homebrew audio tape backup system
> developed today for modern computers. I did a cursory bit of reading, a
> ninety-minute tape could hold over 950mb of raw data @ 16bit/44.1kHz.

I may still have it someplace but I had a QIC drive. I forget if it was a 
40 or 80. They topped out a 120 MB though. Later versions held more.

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#235429

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 01:09:05 -0700, Daniel wrote:
>
>> It would be fascinating to see a homebrew audio tape backup system
>> developed today for modern computers. I did a cursory bit of reading, a
>> ninety-minute tape could hold over 950mb of raw data @ 16bit/44.1kHz.
>
>I may still have it someplace but I had a QIC drive. I forget if it was a 
>40 or 80. They topped out a 120 MB though. Later versions held more.

I would check the capstan and rollers -very- carefully.   Most of the
QIC150 drive's I've seen in the last decade have had very sticky rollers.

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#235448

rbowman wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):

> On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 01:09:05 -0700, Daniel wrote:
>
>> It would be fascinating to see a homebrew audio tape backup system
>> developed today for modern computers. I did a cursory bit of reading, a
>> ninety-minute tape could hold over 950mb of raw data @ 16bit/44.1kHz.

Well, you won't get anywhere near 44 kHz with any cassette tape.

> I may still have it someplace but I had a QIC drive. I forget if it was a 
> 40 or 80. They topped out a 120 MB though. Later versions held more.

-- 
Yow!  And then we could sit on the hoods of cars at stop lights!

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#235374

Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):

> Maxell is partnering with another company to bring out a new line of
> audio cassette tapes
> <https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/storage/maxell-partners-with-disk-union-to-release-ud-60u-special-edition-cassettes-black-and-red-ud-tapes-could-be-ideal-for-use-in-your-c64-datassette>.
>
> These are “Type I” (ferric oxide) tapes, not the best fidelity for
> audio recordings, due to their poorer high-frequency response.
> However, the article suggests that retrocomputing enthusiasts trying
> to relive the (very early) days of using cassettes as a data-storage
> medium might be interested:
>
>     Nevertheless, ferric tapes are ideal for 8-bit home computer tape
>     storage. They would be perfect partners to a C64 Datassette, or
>     for any tape interface you may have used with a VIC-20, Plus/4, ZX
>     Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, MSX, BBC Micro, and so on. The square-ish
>     digital pulses used to encode data to audio (and read it back) are
>     actually in the sweet spot for ferric tape on low-end mechanisms.
>
> My immediate thought is: “you got to be kidding, right?” Not that I
> have personal experience of such usage, but everything I’ve heard says
> that they were clunky, slow, unreliable, frustrating, and basically a
> sheer pain to use as a computer data/program storage medium. Who would
> want to willingly suffer through those days again?

I bought a tap deck for my VIC-20.  Keyed in a BASIC modem program
and saved it for reuse. Logged into the university mainframe with
it.

As for the other uses for cassettes, I'd hide a microphone under
the seat of my dad's rent-a-car for Saturday visitation (divorced
parents), troll him until he'd overreact, and later play the
recording for my mother.

I was a smart-ass little bastard.

-- 
Trouble always comes at the wrong time.

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#235379

On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 15:07:00 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I bought a tap deck for my VIC-20.  Keyed in a BASIC modem program and
> saved it for reuse. Logged into the university mainframe with it.

Was it the purpose built tape deck the PET used in its early days? That 
probably was better than a random Walkman.

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#235392

On 2026-08-26, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 15:07:00 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> I bought a tap deck for my VIC-20.  Keyed in a BASIC modem program and
>> saved it for reuse. Logged into the university mainframe with it.
>
> Was it the purpose built tape deck the PET used in its early days? That 
> probably was better than a random Walkman.

When I first built my IMSAI I didn't have any cassette decks
(I was into reel-to-reel at the time).  Nor did I have a
casette interface board.  But I did have an old Bell 202
modem - so I hooked it up to a serial port and recorded
it on the reel-to-reel decks that I did have.  It worked.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  In this world there are
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  two kinds of people:
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  from incomplete data.

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#235394

On Wed, 26 Aug 2026 18:08:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> When I first built my IMSAI I didn't have any cassette decks (I was into
> reel-to-reel at the time).  Nor did I have a casette interface board. 
> But I did have an old Bell 202 modem - so I hooked it up to a serial
> port and recorded it on the reel-to-reel decks that I did have.  It
> worked.

iirc Wozniak treated a diskette like a tape drive. Most of the CP/M 
machines were using the Western Digital controller. That allowed a number 
of different schemes to be programmed but you at least could tweak the 
controller to read other formats. I had an utility that could handle about 
a dozen different formats. Nothing could read Apple disks other than 
Apple.

Wozniak's design was brilliant with a minimal parts count but I often have 
wondered if he did it that way because he didn't know about the FD1771.

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#235400

rbowman wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):

> On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 15:07:00 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> I bought a tap deck for my VIC-20.  Keyed in a BASIC modem program and
>> saved it for reuse. Logged into the university mainframe with it.
>
> Was it the purpose built tape deck the PET used in its early days? That 
> probably was better than a random Walkman.

It was purpose-built for the VIC-20, iirc.

-- 
Memory should be the starting point of the present.

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#235387

Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> Maxell is partnering with another company to bring out a new line of
> audio cassette tapes
> <https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/storage/maxell-partners-with-disk-union-to-release-ud-60u-special-edition-cassettes-black-and-red-ud-tapes-could-be-ideal-for-use-in-your-c64-datassette>.
> 
> These are “Type I” (ferric oxide) tapes, not the best fidelity for
> audio recordings, due to their poorer high-frequency response.
> However, the article suggests that retrocomputing enthusiasts trying
> to relive the (very early) days of using cassettes as a data-storage
> medium might be interested:
> 
>     Nevertheless, ferric tapes are ideal for 8-bit home computer tape
>     storage. They would be perfect partners to a C64 Datassette, or
>     for any tape interface you may have used with a VIC-20, Plus/4, ZX
>     Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, MSX, BBC Micro, and so on. The square-ish
>     digital pulses used to encode data to audio (and read it back) are
>     actually in the sweet spot for ferric tape on low-end mechanisms.
> 
> My immediate thought is: “you got to be kidding, right?” Not that I
> have personal experience of such usage, but everything I’ve heard says
> that they were clunky, slow, unreliable, frustrating, and basically a
> sheer pain to use as a computer data/program storage medium. Who would
> want to willingly suffer through those days again?

I had ZX Spectrum for which the only persistent storage that I had
was on cassete tape.  Once I had set correct signal level (highest
level was bad, too low was bad too) it worked reliably.  Cassete
needed manual service: one had to put correct cassete (and correct
side) in the drive and start it simultaneously or after with giving
LOAD command (or whatever was appropriate).  Normally one would want
to rewind tape to close before needed file or may be just store single
file on each side.  LOAD with name would read tape searching for
correct file, but that was slow.

Typical use was to load a program and then use it for prolonged time.
On ZX Spectrum typical load was tens of seconds, say 20 seconds to
sloghtly more than 1 munute.  Waiting for load was probably no
worse than waiting for some modern systems to boot.

Arguably for Real ZX Spectrum Experience(TM) you need cassete.
During loading you could hear sound from Spectrum speaker and
see characteristic pattern on border of the screen.  Not that
was something nice.  Simply to know how it really worked you
need the "effects".  And probably need to experience wait to
understand practice.  People did interesting things with Spectrum,
but clearly a lot of things which are easy now were clumsy or
impossible.

I think that sane persons do not want to go back to using
ZX Spectrum as their only computer.  I do not know what
exactly motivates retrocomputing folks, but part of that
is to faithfully replicate past computing environment, its
drawbacks included.

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

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#235396

On Wed, 26 Aug 2026 14:11:24 -0000 (UTC), Waldek Hebisch wrote:

> I think that sane persons do not want to go back to using ZX Spectrum as
> their only computer.  I do not know what exactly motivates
> retrocomputing folks, but part of that is to faithfully replicate past
> computing environment, its drawbacks included.

The Spectrum was hi-tech compared to the ZX-81. A Commodore PET might be 
fun but not that doorstop.

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#235398

On 2026-08-27 02:52, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2026 14:11:24 -0000 (UTC), Waldek Hebisch wrote:
> 
>> I think that sane persons do not want to go back to using ZX Spectrum as
>> their only computer.  I do not know what exactly motivates
>> retrocomputing folks, but part of that is to faithfully replicate past
>> computing environment, its drawbacks included.
> 
> The Spectrum was hi-tech compared to the ZX-81. A Commodore PET might be
> fun but not that doorstop.

The Spectrum could connect to some sort of mini drive. I think it was a 
digital mini tape drive, with cartridges. You could connect several.

Microdrive was the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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