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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #234452 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-03-30 19:12 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-03-31 22:19 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 137 — 24 participants |
Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-30 19:12 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:01 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:02 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:44 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 19:46 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 20:48 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-01 23:23 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 10:53 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-02 07:29 -0700
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 16:58 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:34 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:53 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 21:01 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-03 16:53 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 03:57 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 07:37 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-04 21:55 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 15:48 -0700
Re: ancient time sharingSelf-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 02:27 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 22:03 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:31 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 07:40 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-04-04 13:44 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 (VSCP) ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-04-05 20:23 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:53 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 23:44 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-05 09:29 +0100
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 19:22 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 14:30 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:02 -0700
history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:05 -0300
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 16:49 +0200
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 15:58 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 13:38 -0300
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 19:41 +0200
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 19:18 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 21:27 +0200
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-11 21:13 +0000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:47 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 15:02 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:27 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:11 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:19 +0000
Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 14:56 -0700
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:10 +0000
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-15 05:46 -0700
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:51 -0700
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:22 +0000
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:13 +0000
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-15 16:48 +0200
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-15 08:19 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:13 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:12 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:02 -0300
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 18:55 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:03 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:07 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:21 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-14 00:37 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 20:56 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-14 04:12 +0000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:06 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 01:42 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:05 -0700
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 07:03 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 22:19 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 08:20 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-06 12:03 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 07:30 -0700
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 07:39 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 12:05 -0700
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 17:41 -1000
position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:42 -0300
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 15:12 -1000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:57 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-12 21:14 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-17 17:06 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-17 17:56 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-18 14:08 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-18 19:29 +0100
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-18 12:00 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-18 20:35 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2026-09-17 11:32 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-13 07:31 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 07:45 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 16:50 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:18 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:21 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-15 14:33 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:37 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:35 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 14:41 -1000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:54 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:53 -0300
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 22:18 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:24 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-14 01:51 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-14 14:53 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 19:21 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-06 21:25 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 02:32 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 04:06 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-31 08:52 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 18:07 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 13:51 -0700
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:58 +0000
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 07:35 -0700
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 14:54 +0000
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 13:01 -0700
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:14 +0000
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 22:32 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 02:06 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 09:53 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-01 16:07 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:27 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 16:10 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-01 17:15 +0100
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:28 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 16:48 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 17:44 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-01 14:21 -0700
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-01 20:40 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 22:02 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 15:28 +0100
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-02 15:36 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 17:15 +0100
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 16:44 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:30 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:28 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:36 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-31 07:46 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-31 15:54 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 19:03 +0000
Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 01:04 +0000
Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:17 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 15:36 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:19 +0000
Page 6 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 Next page →
| From | antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 02:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10qfbno$3jj9e$1@paganini.bofh.team> |
| In reply to | #234453 |
David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/03/2026 20:12, Lev wrote:
>> John Levine wrote:
>>
>>> CP/67 was originally an experiment at IBM Research to provide a better
>>> development environment for operating systems than a signup sheet to let
>>> one person at a time use the physical machine. It was written by a small
>>> group of skilled programmers who got really good performance out of the
>>> same hardware.
>>
>> The signup sheet detail is great. So CP/67 started as a way to stop
>> people fighting over machine time - basically a scheduling problem.
>> And then it turned out that the solution (just give everyone their own
>> virtual machine) was general enough to outlast the original problem.
>> That's a pattern I keep noticing in computing history: the practical
>> hack survives while the properly-architected solution collapses under
>> its own weight.
>>
>> The TSS/360 story is new to me. Twenty users on a 360/67 and it
>> struggled? How much of that was the large-team bloat you're describing
>> versus actual architectural problems?
>>
> Not sure, do you mean the software architecture of TSS or the Hardware
> architecture of the 360/67. I at Newcastle Uni (UK) I think they/we
> managed more users than that with reasonable response time on a 360/67.
>
> I do know performance did depend on the "drum" (I think it was actually
> a fixed disk with 4Mb of space) and when it was offline it struggled
> with just me running APL.
>
> some docs here:-
>
> https://moca.ncl.ac.uk/
The docs say that slightly later Newcastle had IBM 370/168 and run
MTS. It is likely that earlier 360/67 also run MTS.
--
Waldek Hebisch
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 04:06 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <0001HW.2F7B719800BD7DD830663638F@news.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234474 |
On 31 Mar 2026, Waldek Hebisch wrote (in article <10qfbno$3jj9e$1@paganini.bofh.team>): > David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote: (AI slop omitted.) > > Not sure, do you mean the software architecture of TSS or the Hardware > > architecture of the 360/67. I at Newcastle Uni (UK) I think they/we > > managed more users than that with reasonable response time on a 360/67. > > > > I do know performance did depend on the "drum" (I think it was actually > > a fixed disk with 4Mb of space) and when it was offline it struggled > > with just me running APL. > > > > some docs here:- > > > > https://moca.ncl.ac.uk/ > > The docs say that slightly later Newcastle had IBM 370/168 and run > MTS. It is likely that earlier 360/67 also run MTS. It did. -- Bill Findlay
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 08:52 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10qfufv$35cbl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234474 |
On 31/03/2026 03:32, Waldek Hebisch wrote: > David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote: >> On 30/03/2026 20:12, Lev wrote: >>> John Levine wrote: >>> >>>> CP/67 was originally an experiment at IBM Research to provide a better >>>> development environment for operating systems than a signup sheet to let >>>> one person at a time use the physical machine. It was written by a small >>>> group of skilled programmers who got really good performance out of the >>>> same hardware. >>> >>> The signup sheet detail is great. So CP/67 started as a way to stop >>> people fighting over machine time - basically a scheduling problem. >>> And then it turned out that the solution (just give everyone their own >>> virtual machine) was general enough to outlast the original problem. >>> That's a pattern I keep noticing in computing history: the practical >>> hack survives while the properly-architected solution collapses under >>> its own weight. >>> >>> The TSS/360 story is new to me. Twenty users on a 360/67 and it >>> struggled? How much of that was the large-team bloat you're describing >>> versus actual architectural problems? >>> >> Not sure, do you mean the software architecture of TSS or the Hardware >> architecture of the 360/67. I at Newcastle Uni (UK) I think they/we >> managed more users than that with reasonable response time on a 360/67. >> >> I do know performance did depend on the "drum" (I think it was actually >> a fixed disk with 4Mb of space) and when it was offline it struggled >> with just me running APL. >> >> some docs here:- >> >> https://moca.ncl.ac.uk/ > > The docs say that slightly later Newcastle had IBM 370/168 and run > MTS. It is likely that earlier 360/67 also run MTS. > It did. I used it Dave
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 18:07 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <0001HW.2F7C36D400E2299330663638F@news.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234482 |
On 31 Mar 2026, David Wade wrote (in article <10qfufv$35cbl$1@dont-email.me>): > On 31/03/2026 03:32, Waldek Hebisch wrote: > > David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote: > > > On 30/03/2026 20:12, Lev wrote: > > > > John Levine wrote: > > > > > > > > > CP/67 was originally an experiment at IBM Research to provide a better > > > > > development environment for operating systems than a signup sheet to let > > > > > one person at a time use the physical machine. It was written by a small > > > > > group of skilled programmers who got really good performance out of the > > > > > same hardware. > > > > > > > > The signup sheet detail is great. So CP/67 started as a way to stop > > > > people fighting over machine time - basically a scheduling problem. > > > > And then it turned out that the solution (just give everyone their own > > > > virtual machine) was general enough to outlast the original problem. > > > > That's a pattern I keep noticing in computing history: the practical > > > > hack survives while the properly-architected solution collapses under > > > > its own weight. > > > > > > > > The TSS/360 story is new to me. Twenty users on a 360/67 and it > > > > struggled? How much of that was the large-team bloat you're describing > > > > versus actual architectural problems? > > > Not sure, do you mean the software architecture of TSS or the Hardware > > > architecture of the 360/67. I at Newcastle Uni (UK) I think they/we > > > managed more users than that with reasonable response time on a 360/67. > > > > > > I do know performance did depend on the "drum" (I think it was actually > > > a fixed disk with 4Mb of space) and when it was offline it struggled > > > with just me running APL. > > > > > > some docs here:- > > > > > > https://moca.ncl.ac.uk/ > > > > The docs say that slightly later Newcastle had IBM 370/168 and run > > MTS. It is likely that earlier 360/67 also run MTS. > > It did. I used it > > Dave Moi aussi. -- Bill Findlay
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-30 13:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <10qenoj$2plle$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234452 |
On 3/30/26 12:12, Lev wrote: > The TSS/360 story is new to me. Twenty users on a 360/67 and it > struggled? How much of that was the large-team bloat you're describing > versus actual architectural problems? The architecture suffered from the same problems as x86 trying to run position independent code. I think only Multics, with its segmentation, gets this right. Otherwise any reference to an absolute address is effectively an indirect reference. For TSS/360 all address constants have to be copied and relocated each time a program is loaded, and then it needs two memory fetches instead of one to access the referenced address.
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 00:58 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qf67n$2u8s$2@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #234454 |
>For TSS/360 all address constants have to be copied and relocated each >time a program is loaded, and then it needs two memory fetches instead >of one to access the referenced address. Sort of. TSS programs had CSECTs which were read-only and position independent with one copy shared among all processes, and PSECTs which were read-write and needed a separate copy per process which had pointers that were relocated when loaded. The calling sequence had a pair of addresses for each routine, one to the PSECT (the R-con) and one to the CSECT (the V-con). In retrospect it would have made more sense to use one address for the PSECT and pick up the code address from a known location in the PSECT. My guess is that they hoped there would be routines with no static data so they could skip the R-con, but as far as I know they never did that. It is easy to write position independent 360 code since all references are relative to base registers. You load a base register to point to wherever the code is (BALR R,0 was the usual way) and off you go. The routine would keep a pointer to the PSECT in another register set up from the calling sequence, so the routine can directly address both its code and its data without extra instructions. The calling sequence was slower than the OS/360 version, but even the OS version was quite slow with register saves and save area chaining. This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and linux, which have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with process-specific pointers to the shared code. Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much more detail. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 07:35 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qgm3p$3dj57$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234470 |
On 3/30/26 17:58, John Levine wrote: >> For TSS/360 all address constants have to be copied and relocated each >> time a program is loaded, and then it needs two memory fetches instead >> of one to access the referenced address. > > Sort of. TSS programs had CSECTs which were read-only and position independent > with one copy shared among all processes, and PSECTs which were read-write and > needed a separate copy per process which had pointers that were relocated when > loaded. The calling sequence had a pair of addresses for each routine, one to > the PSECT (the R-con) and one to the CSECT (the V-con). In retrospect it would > have made more sense to use one address for the PSECT and pick up the code > address from a known location in the PSECT. My guess is that they hoped there > would be routines with no static data so they could skip the R-con, but as far > as I know they never did that. > > It is easy to write position independent 360 code since all references are > relative to base registers. You load a base register to point to wherever the > code is (BALR R,0 was the usual way) and off you go. The routine would keep > a pointer to the PSECT in another register set up from the calling sequence, > so the routine can directly address both its code and its data without extra > instructions. The calling sequence was slower than the OS/360 version, but > even the OS version was quite slow with register saves and save area chaining. > > This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and linux, which > have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with process-specific > pointers to the shared code. > > Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much more detail. > Highly recommended. I have a copy sitting on my shelf now.
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 14:54 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <n325gqF2repU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234486 |
On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 07:35:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > On 3/30/26 17:58, John Levine wrote: >>> For TSS/360 all address constants have to be copied and relocated each >>> time a program is loaded, and then it needs two memory fetches instead >>> of one to access the referenced address. >> >> Sort of. TSS programs had CSECTs which were read-only and position >> independent with one copy shared among all processes, and PSECTs which >> were read-write and needed a separate copy per process which had >> pointers that were relocated when loaded. The calling sequence had a >> pair of addresses for each routine, one to the PSECT (the R-con) and >> one to the CSECT (the V-con). In retrospect it would have made more >> sense to use one address for the PSECT and pick up the code address >> from a known location in the PSECT. My guess is that they hoped there >> would be routines with no static data so they could skip the R-con, but >> as far as I know they never did that. >> >> It is easy to write position independent 360 code since all references >> are relative to base registers. You load a base register to point to >> wherever the code is (BALR R,0 was the usual way) and off you go. The >> routine would keep a pointer to the PSECT in another register set up >> from the calling sequence, >> so the routine can directly address both its code and its data without >> extra instructions. The calling sequence was slower than the OS/360 >> version, but even the OS version was quite slow with register saves and >> save area chaining. >> >> This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and >> linux, which have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with >> process-specific pointers to the shared code. >> >> Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much >> more detail. >> >> > Highly recommended. I have a copy sitting on my shelf now. I have every book in that series, if you're referring to the Macdonald/ Elsevier set. I also have the Levine book. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 13:01 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qh966$3krmm$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234491 |
On 3/31/26 07:54, Bob Eager wrote: > On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 07:35:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > >> On 3/30/26 17:58, John Levine wrote: >>>> For TSS/360 all address constants have to be copied and relocated each >>>> time a program is loaded, and then it needs two memory fetches instead >>>> of one to access the referenced address. >>> >>> Sort of. TSS programs had CSECTs which were read-only and position >>> independent with one copy shared among all processes, and PSECTs which >>> were read-write and needed a separate copy per process which had >>> pointers that were relocated when loaded. The calling sequence had a >>> pair of addresses for each routine, one to the PSECT (the R-con) and >>> one to the CSECT (the V-con). In retrospect it would have made more >>> sense to use one address for the PSECT and pick up the code address >>> from a known location in the PSECT. My guess is that they hoped there >>> would be routines with no static data so they could skip the R-con, but >>> as far as I know they never did that. >>> >>> It is easy to write position independent 360 code since all references >>> are relative to base registers. You load a base register to point to >>> wherever the code is (BALR R,0 was the usual way) and off you go. The >>> routine would keep a pointer to the PSECT in another register set up >>> from the calling sequence, >>> so the routine can directly address both its code and its data without >>> extra instructions. The calling sequence was slower than the OS/360 >>> version, but even the OS version was quite slow with register saves and >>> save area chaining. >>> >>> This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and >>> linux, which have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with >>> process-specific pointers to the shared code. >>> >>> Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much >>> more detail. >>> >>> >> Highly recommended. I have a copy sitting on my shelf now. > > I have every book in that series, if you're referring to the Macdonald/ > Elsevier set. > > I also have the Levine book. > I have a signed copy from Morgan Kaufman.
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| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 22:14 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qhh0b$2d3$2@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #234470 |
In article <10qf67n$2u8s$2@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: >[snip] >This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and linux, which >have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with process-specific >pointers to the shared code. > >Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much more detail. I can't lie, your book on the subject is fantastic. And I think it is still one of the _only_ books available on linkers and loaders specifically? - Dan C.
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-31 22:32 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <n330c5F2repU7@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234513 |
On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 22:14:35 +0000, Dan Cross wrote: > In article <10qf67n$2u8s$2@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> > wrote: >>[snip] >>This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and >>linux, which have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with >>process-specific pointers to the shared code. >> >>Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much >>more detail. > > I can't lie, your book on the subject is fantastic. And I think it is > still one of the _only_ books available on linkers and loaders > specifically? It is indeed. I think Richard Jones recommended it to me. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 02:06 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qhuja$1ka8$2@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #234513 |
According to Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net>: >In article <10qf67n$2u8s$2@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: >>[snip] >>This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and linux, which >>have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with process-specific >>pointers to the shared code. >> >>Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much more detail. > >I can't lie, your book on the subject is fantastic. And I think >it is still one of the _only_ books available on linkers and >loaders specifically? When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of the pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late 1940s but there'd never been more than the occasional article or chapter. So either this was the book that the world had been awaiting for half a century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 09:53 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <n3488uF2repU8@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234528 |
On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote: > According to Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net>: >>In article <10qf67n$2u8s$2@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> >>wrote: >>>[snip] >>>This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and >>>linux, which have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with >>>process-specific pointers to the shared code. >>> >>>Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much >>>more detail. >> >>I can't lie, your book on the subject is fantastic. And I think it is >>still one of the _only_ books available on linkers and loaders >>specifically? > > When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of the > pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late 1940s > but there'd never been more than the occasional article or chapter. So > either this was the book that the world had been awaiting for half a > century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. > It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I can't find a mention online, but I have a copy. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 16:07 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qjfsl$4tk$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #234531 |
In article <n3488uF2repU8@mid.individual.net>, Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote: >On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote: > >> According to Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net>: >>>In article <10qf67n$2u8s$2@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> >>>wrote: >>>>[snip] >>>>This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and >>>>linux, which have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with >>>>process-specific pointers to the shared code. >>>> >>>>Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much >>>>more detail. >>> >>>I can't lie, your book on the subject is fantastic. And I think it is >>>still one of the _only_ books available on linkers and loaders >>>specifically? >> >> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of the >> pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late 1940s >> but there'd never been more than the occasional article or chapter. So >> either this was the book that the world had been awaiting for half a >> century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. >> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. > >There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I can't >find a mention online, but I have a copy. What was the title? And who are/were the author(s)? - Dan C.
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 16:27 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <n34vbhFt1d2U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234540 |
On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 16:07:49 +0000, Dan Cross wrote: > In article <n3488uF2repU8@mid.individual.net>, > Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote: >>On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote: >> >>> According to Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net>: >>>>In article <10qf67n$2u8s$2@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine >>>><johnl@taugh.com> >>>>wrote: >>>>>[snip] >>>>>This isn't all that different from ELF shared libraries in Unix and >>>>>linux, which have position independent pages and the PLT and GOT with >>>>>process-specific pointers to the shared code. >>>>> >>>>>Shameless plug: my book Linkers and Loaders explains this all in much >>>>>more detail. >>>> >>>>I can't lie, your book on the subject is fantastic. And I think it is >>>>still one of the _only_ books available on linkers and loaders >>>>specifically? >>> >>> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of >>> the pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late >>> 1940s but there'd never been more than the occasional article or >>> chapter. So either this was the book that the world had been awaiting >>> for half a century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. >>> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. >> >>There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I >>can't find a mention online, but I have a copy. > > What was the title? And who are/were the author(s)? Assemblers and Loaders, by David W Barron. ISBN 9781558604964. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 16:10 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qjg0v$1ia0$1@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #234531 |
According to Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx>: >> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of the >> pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late 1940s >> but there'd never been more than the occasional article or chapter. So >> either this was the book that the world had been awaiting for half a >> century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. >> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. > >There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I can't >find a mention online, but I have a copy. Huh. I looked pretty hard and didn't find anything. Who wrote it? -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| From | Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 17:15 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qjgan$1gdk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234531 |
On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote:
[Linkers and Loaders:]
>> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of the>> pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late 1940s
>> but there'd never been more than the occasional article or chapter. So
>> either this was the book that the world had been awaiting for half a
>> century, or this will prove that there is no market for it.
>> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print.
> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I can't
> find a mention online, but I have a copy.
David Barron's 1068 monograph? This is called "Assemblers and
Loaders", but it does include a chapter on "Loaders and Linkage Editors".
--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Belliss
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 16:28 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <n34vdpFt1d2U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234543 |
On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 17:15:19 +0100, Andy Walker wrote: > On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote: >> On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote: > [Linkers and Loaders:] >>> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of >>> the>> pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late >>> 1940s but there'd never been more than the occasional article or >>> chapter. So either this was the book that the world had been awaiting >>> for half a century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. >>> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. >> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I >> can't find a mention online, but I have a copy. > > David Barron's 1068 monograph? This is called "Assemblers and > Loaders", but it does include a chapter on "Loaders and Linkage > Editors". That's the one. I didn't quite remember the title correctly. I had to go and find it! -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 16:48 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <B%bzR.162800$dR1.80767@fx14.iad> |
| In reply to | #234545 |
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes: >On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 17:15:19 +0100, Andy Walker wrote: > >> On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote: >>> On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote: >> [Linkers and Loaders:] >>>> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of >>>> the>> pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late >>>> 1940s but there'd never been more than the occasional article or >>>> chapter. So either this was the book that the world had been awaiting >>>> for half a century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. >>>> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. >>> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I >>> can't find a mention online, but I have a copy. >> >> David Barron's 1068 monograph? This is called "Assemblers and >> Loaders", but it does include a chapter on "Loaders and Linkage >> Editors". > >That's the one. I didn't quite remember the title correctly. I had to go >and find it! https://archive.org/details/assemblersloader0000barr/page/n1/mode/2up
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-04-01 17:44 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Message-ID | <10qjli6$1hol$1@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #234546 |
According to Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net>: >Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes: >>On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 17:15:19 +0100, Andy Walker wrote: >> >>> On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote: >>>> On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote: >>> [Linkers and Loaders:] >>>>> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of >>>>> the>> pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late >>>>> 1940s but there'd never been more than the occasional article or >>>>> chapter. So either this was the book that the world had been awaiting >>>>> for half a century, or this will prove that there is no market for it. >>>>> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print. >>>> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I >>>> can't find a mention online, but I have a copy. >>> >>> David Barron's 1068 monograph? This is called "Assemblers and >>> Loaders", but it does include a chapter on "Loaders and Linkage >>> Editors". >> >>That's the one. I didn't quite remember the title correctly. I had to go >>and find it! > >https://archive.org/details/assemblersloader0000barr/page/n1/mode/2up Ah, right, that book. It's only 61 pages, with one ten page chapter that talks about linkers or loaders. It's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. Pages 45-46 talk about an odd loader whose input is a combination of stuff to load and instructions to do load-time calculations. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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