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Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-02 14:51 -0400
    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-03 03:19 -0400
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-03 14:00 +0000
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-03 17:44 +0100
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-09-03 17:43 -0300
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-03 20:51 +0000
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-04 21:29 -0700
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-09-05 04:19 -0300
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-04 15:46 +0100
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-03 14:11 -0400
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-03 19:53 +0100
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-03 13:59 -0700
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-03 20:18 -0400
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 02:14 -0400
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 09:47 +0100
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2021-09-05 10:00 -0500
                    Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-09-05 22:16 +0000
                      Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 05:46 -0700
                        Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-09-18 09:19 +0000
                          Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-18 15:48 +0100
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2021-09-05 12:05 -0400
                    Re: fine old languages, HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-09-05 22:20 +0000
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 18:05 -0700
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 23:00 -0400
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-09-07 16:27 -0400
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-07 18:30 -0400
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-08 00:17 +0000
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 08:50 +0100
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2021-09-06 11:16 -0400
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 05:50 -0700
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-06 15:04 -0400
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2021-09-09 02:04 +0000
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 05:37 -0700
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-16 13:50 -0400
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-09-16 20:22 +0000
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-09-16 14:11 -0700
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-09-16 14:05 -0700
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-16 22:55 +0100
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-09-16 15:40 -0700
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-16 18:57 -0700
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-16 22:33 -0400
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-17 07:13 +0100
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-05 10:44 +0000
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 09:44 -0400
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 05:43 -0700
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-16 13:51 -0400
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-05 14:11 +0000
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-09-05 18:31 -0300
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 19:45 -0400
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-05 13:01 -0400
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-06 17:27 +0000
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-06 23:59 -0400
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-07 09:41 +0000
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-07 11:54 +0100
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2021-09-07 10:58 +0000
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-07 13:42 +0000
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 05:58 -0700
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2021-09-16 13:42 +0000
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-16 15:12 +0100
                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-16 17:40 +0000
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-07 13:42 +0000
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-07 14:53 +0100
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-07 12:45 -0400
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 06:00 -0700
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-07 06:45 -0700
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-08 16:17 -0400
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 05:55 -0700
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-16 17:40 +0000
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-16 18:16 +0000
                              JRRT's linguistic influences [was not really: Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-17 16:35 -0400
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-16 19:19 +0100
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-16 23:26 +0000
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-16 18:12 +0000
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-09-16 20:55 +0100
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-16 14:41 -0700
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-16 23:15 +0100
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-07 06:45 -0700
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-07 14:12 -0400
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-07 15:34 -0700
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-09-16 06:09 -0700
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2021-09-10 18:25 +0200
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 01:40 -0400
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 09:38 +0100
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-05 10:49 +0100
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 11:22 +0100
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-05 11:31 +0100
                  OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-05 11:38 +0100
                    Re: OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 12:15 +0100
                      Re: OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-06 17:30 +0000
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-07 22:05 +0100
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-09-05 10:13 +0000
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 09:50 -0400
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 20:18 -0400
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 22:38 -0400
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-06 08:53 +0100
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-05 12:22 -0400
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 17:26 +0100
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 17:29 -0400
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-09-05 23:35 -0500
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-06 17:37 +0000
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-06 13:46 -0400
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-06 10:58 -0700
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-06 14:01 -0400
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-06 17:42 -0700
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-06 21:07 -0400
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-06 20:01 +0100
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-07 22:08 +0100
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-08 09:22 +0000
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-07 00:02 -0400
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-07 06:45 -0700
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-07 14:15 -0400
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-07 20:44 +0000
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-09-07 00:22 -0500
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-06 09:04 +0100
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-09-15 18:08 +0100
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 23:14 -0400
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-06 00:01 -0400
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-06 16:08 -0400
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-09-06 21:09 +0000
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-08 16:14 -0400
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-09-03 19:34 +0000
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-03 19:57 -0400
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-x4i-this> - 2021-09-03 08:00 -0700
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-04 15:09 -0400
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000

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#218670

On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
> a single person

> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.

Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and Cobol.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

-- 
Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
email replies.

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#218677 — Re: fine old languages, HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

According to David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org>:
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
>
>Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and Cobol.

It also had a fair amount of Algol mixed in to give it block structure and recursion.

Considering that PL/I was invented by a committee at IBM under intense time pressure
to ship and all-purpose language to use on their all-purpose S/360 mainframes, it's
a remarkably good language.  Sixty years later we can see some of the mistakes like
the wild abandon with which you can mix datatypes, but they got a lot of it right.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#218680

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 2:36:49 AM UTC+10, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote: 
> > COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It 
> > enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with 
> > extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though 
> > massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was a 
> > database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I 
> > believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data 
> > structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style 
> > applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded by 
> > a single person
> > Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural 
> > language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and Cobol. 
.
without the verbosity of COBOL and without the achronistic codes of FORTRAN.
.
PL/I also took some ideas from ALGOL -- block structure and free format source.
.
Real improvements came with generic functions and whole array operations.

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#218683

On 9/5/21 12:05 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher 
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>> a single person
> 
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
> 
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and 
> Cobol.
> 
> Regards, Dave Hodgins
> 


   Found an DR-PL/I compiler image that'll run in
   a DosBox or VirtualBox DOS environment. No MANUAL
   though. There was no such thing as a "standard
   implementation" back then (and hardly NOW) so
   you need an DR-PL/I manual to effectively use
   DR-PL/I.

   PL/I always seemed to be a bit of a "kitchen sink"
   language - you could spot bits of several, even BASIC,
   in there. There were several viable approaches to
   every task ... which ain't terrible.

   Anyway, except for the wordiness and a few annoying quirks,
   COBOL really is a perfectly viable language for commercial
   programming. It does what you need to be done. Certainly
   not "visual" though, however I really don't like Object
   Oriented (still always write basically K&R 'C') so I don't
   miss THAT in COBOL.

   FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
   language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
   and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
   nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
   else.

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#218749

On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

>    FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>    language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>    and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>    nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>    else.

As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,

    Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
    fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.

BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  They don't understand Microsoft
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  has stolen their car and parked
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  a taxi in their driveway.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Mayayana

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#218750

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
>>    FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>>    language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>>    and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>>    nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>>    else.
>
> As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,
>
>     Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
>     fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.
>
> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?

https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_whats_happening/

Bankrupt.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#218755

On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>>>    FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>>>    language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>>>    and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>>>    nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>>>    else.
>>
>> As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,
>>
>>     Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
>>     fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.
>>
>> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?
>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_whats_happening/
>
>Bankrupt.

Shame, but they brought it on themselves.  Too many outages--I finally
changed over to Forteinc.  One of the things that annoyed me about
Newsguy was the periodic shutdowns when the moved their servers to a
new location--remind me of the kids who move to a different apartment
every time the lease is up.

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#218758

On 2021-09-07, J  Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_whats_happening/
>>
>> Bankrupt.
>
> Shame, but they brought it on themselves.  Too many outages--I finally
> changed over to Forteinc.  One of the things that annoyed me about
> Newsguy was the periodic shutdowns when the moved their servers to a
> new location--remind me of the kids who move to a different apartment
> every time the lease is up.

Too bad.  I've been with them a long time, and never noticed too many
outages.  I dug through my stuff and in the configuration for Pan
(which I used to use to download from the binaries groups but haven't
used for several years) I found the login information for Astraweb.
Fortunately, that site and my account on it are still alive - so I'm back.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  They don't understand Microsoft
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  has stolen their car and parked
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  a taxi in their driveway.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Mayayana

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#218689

On 05/09/2021 17:05, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher 
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>> a single person
> 
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
> 
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and 
> Cobol.
> 
which turned out to be less handy.

ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

> Regards, Dave Hodgins
> 


-- 
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

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#218696

On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:50:59 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 05/09/2021 17:05, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>>> a single person
>>
>>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
>>
>> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and
>> Cobol.
>>
> which turned out to be less handy.

Depends on the task. PL/1 supported 15 dimensional arrays. I don't remember if
Fortran did, but even if it did, PL/1 allowing better variable names to be
used allowing it to still be understandable. If a variable name exceeded 30
characters it took the first and last 15 characters. As long as that was unique,
it worked. COBOL was a max of 3 dimensions and a max of 30 character variable
names.

> ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

I never used ALGOL, B, or BCPL, and only did a tiny bit of work in C.

Regards, Dave Hodgins


-- 
Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
email replies.

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#218843

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:17:09 AM UTC-6, David W. Hodgins wrote:

> Depends on the task. PL/1 supported 15 dimensional arrays. I don't remember if 
> Fortran did,

Some dialects of FORTRAN IV only went up to seven-dimensional arrays. This
may have had something to do with the fact that the IBM 7094 had seven
index registers.

John Savard

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#218709

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

Order of invention was CPL, BCPL, B, and C.

There were jokes in the 1980s nad 1990s about the proper name for the next
language in the sequence:  D, or P?

(Note that at least one object-oriented C successor named D was created.)

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#218770

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/09/2021 07:14, SixOverFive wrote:
>> On 9/3/21 8:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:59:26 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:11:42 -0400
>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>>>>> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Reminds me of the A level computer science course I wished I hadn't
>>>>> taken - the year before it had been all about machine architecture,
>>>>> assembly language programming, data structures and algorithms, fun 
>>>>> stuff.
>>>>> But I wasn't allowed to take it that year (because I was taking my O
>>>>> levels) I had to wait and take it the following year and so the 
>>>>> course I
>>>>> got to take was COBOL, systems analysis and data validation and not 
>>>>> what I
>>>>> had been looking forward to at all. But it was "what we'd be working 
>>>>> with
>>>>> in the real world" or so I was told when I moaned about the change.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> COBOL programmers are still in demand, apparently.
>>>
>>> They are.  Unfortunately these days to get a job you have to move to
>>> India and be willing to work for an Indian wage.  It's a _good_ Indian
>>> wage mind you, I understand you can live comfortably on it, but it's
>>> below US minimum.
>> 
>>    Know a guy who got a job fairly recently at a govt
>>    op ... one requirement was that he learn COBOL because
>>    they'd heavily invested in *perfect* COBOL apps way
>>    back in the day and would not, could not afford to,
>>    have them re-written in anything else. Important
>>    customized stuff like payrolls, scheduling ...
>> 
>>    COBOL was a wonder-language back in the day, perfect for
>>    all kinds of biz apps and (sort of) self-documenting
>>    because of the quasi-natural-language code. Its "PIC"
>>    statement was great, could do everything printf() can
>>    do, help you out with format conversions and forms.
>>    It was assumed you were using TTY terminals and serial
>>    ASCII printers. There ARE a couple of COBOL development
>>    tools for Linux ... one, I think, will even set up
>>    tinted columns for the older, more anal, COBOL versions
>>    where you had to put certain codes in EXACTLY the
>>    right columns. DID make the compilers simpler ...
>> 
> 
> 
> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It 
> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with 
> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though 

ROTFL, certainly *not* the IBM compilers. I had a habit of looking at
the generated code -- it was *horrible*. It was so bad that a company
called Capex wrote an optimizer for it. It greatly improved the
efficiency of the programs.

	Jerry

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#218840

On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the 
> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in 
> which its being used.

In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
COMPLEX variables equally well.

So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.

John Savard

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#218853

On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the 
>> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in 
>> which its being used.
>
>In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>COMPLEX variables equally well.
>
>So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.

In APL they work if one argument is scalar and the other an array.  In
Python they also work if the left argument is a string.

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#218859

J  Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the 
>>> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in 
>>> which its being used.
>>
>>In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>>COMPLEX variables equally well.
>>
>>So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.
>
> In APL they work if one argument is scalar and the other an array.

Same in Fortran (but not in FORTRAN).

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#218862

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 3:50:42 AM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc 
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: 
> 
> >On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote: 
> > 
> >> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the 
> >> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in 
> >> which its being used. 
> > 
> >In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and 
> >COMPLEX variables equally well. 
> > 
> >So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.
.
> In APL they work if one argument is scalar and the other an array.
.
PL/I has been doing that since 1966.
Fortran has been doing that since  1991.
.
> In  Python they also work if the left argument is a string.

It can be done in PL/I also.

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#218861

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote: 
> 
> > Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the 
> > worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in 
> > which its being used. 
> 
> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and 
> COMPLEX variables equally well. 

You mean equally badly.
Things overflow in integer arithmetic, without warning.
What about integer complex numbers?

> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused. 

And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.

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#218865

On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural
> > Philosopher wrote: 
> > 
> > > Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh
> > > the worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the
> > > context in which its being used. 
> > 
> > In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and 
> > COMPLEX variables equally well. 
> > So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly,
> > instead of abused. 
> 
> And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.

	Yes it is, as soon as the code required for the operation depends
on the data types on either side of the operator it's overloaded. It's just
done at the compiler level and not made extensible by the programmer in
FORTRAN. Making it extensible by the programmer does of course open up all
sorts of possibilities for abuse - but it is nonetheless useful when used
appropriately to aid code clarity. For example if I happen to be writing
code that deals with vectors a lot it would be useful to be able to add
them and multiply them by scalars without wordy function calls obscuring
the logic.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#218867

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 8:00:03 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT) 
> Robin Vowels <robin....@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> > On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote: 
> > > On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural 
> > > Philosopher wrote: 
> > > 
> > > > Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh 
> > > > the worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the 
> > > > context in which its being used. 
> > > 
> > > In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and 
> > > COMPLEX variables equally well.
> > > So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, 
> > > instead of abused. 
> > 
> > And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.
.
> Yes it is, as soon as the code required for the operation depends 
> on the data types on either side of the operator it's overloaded.
.
I disagree.
.
> It's just 
> done at the compiler level and not made extensible by the programmer in 
> FORTRAN. Making it extensible by the programmer does of course open up all 
> sorts of possibilities for abuse - but it is nonetheless useful when used 
> appropriately to aid code clarity. For example if I happen to be writing 
> code that deals with vectors a lot it would be useful to be able to add 
> them and multiply them by scalars without wordy function calls obscuring 
> the logic.
.
That's been done routinely in PL/I since 1966, and in Fortran since 1990.

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