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TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022

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  TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-02 21:32 +0000
    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 14:30 +0000
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 16:38 +0000
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 17:13 +0000
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:33 -0500
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 21:55 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-04 13:23 -0800
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:29 +0100
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-06 19:40 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:49 -0600
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-23 10:34 -1000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-12-23 21:42 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-24 11:54 +0000
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-24 11:17 -0600
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-24 18:01 -0600
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-25 11:24 -0700
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-25 09:12 -1000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-30 17:06 +0000
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 19:09 +0000
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-30 16:11 -0600
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2022-12-30 20:22 +0000
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-30 16:12 -0600
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 23:44 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-23 12:18 -1000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-24 03:43 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 07:55 -1000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-24 11:08 -0700
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-12-24 18:36 +0000
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-24 21:09 +0000
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 14:03 -1000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 14:46 -1000
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-06 11:17 -0800
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:53 +0100
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-07 22:02 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:55 -0600
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-23 12:27 -0700
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-07 03:11 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2022-12-30 13:57 -0800
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2022-12-30 22:11 +0000
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 23:44 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2022-12-30 23:56 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2022-12-31 09:02 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-12-30 20:44 -0500
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-30 20:08 -0700
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2022-12-31 00:25 -0800
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-12-31 13:39 +0100
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 00:46 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-04 18:49 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2022-03-04 14:55 -0600
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-04 22:14 +0000
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 22:17 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2022-03-06 04:35 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-06 05:40 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:46 -0500
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:21 +0100
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:42 +0100
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 15:07 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:51 +0100
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:07 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-07 11:47 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:19 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-08 10:08 +0100
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-08 19:47 +0000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-09 01:03 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:18 +0100
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:37 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 14:53 -0500
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 20:43 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-07 19:52 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:18 -0500
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:33 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:58 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 00:06 +0100
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 15:22 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 11:17 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-08 21:09 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 21:33 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:24 +0100
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:24 -0500
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 21:06 +0000
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:47 -0500
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 10:48 -0600
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:03 +0000
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 19:52 -0600
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2022-03-08 04:13 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:32 +0100

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#220288

Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>>>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>> I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals.  Is DCL a separate program,
>>>>>> like the TOPS-20 EXEC?  Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?
>>>> 
>>>>> VMS is an odd beast in that respect.  The VAX had a four privilege
>>>>> rings (aside: interestingly enough, the relatively recent ARMv8
>>>>> architecture also has four privilege rings (with a fifth coming soon)).
>>>> 
>>>>> The kernel ran in the most privileged ring, Kernel Mode.   RMS (mainly
>>>>> derived from RSX-11, IIRC, and authored by Andy Goldstein (IIRC again))
>>>>> ran in the next most privileged ring (Executive Mode).   The Command
>>>>> Interpreter (DCL) ran in the next ring (Supervisor Mode), and user
>>>>> applications ran in the least privileged ring (User Mode).
>>>> 
>>>> Interestingly, the *2nd generation* PDP-10, the KI-10 processor, implemented a
>>>> 4-level privilege model:  Kernel, Executive, Public, and User.  Tops-10 ran
>>>> mostly in Executive mode, with only some of the most sensitive routines done in
>>>> Kernel mode.  Public mode was a user-level mode (i.e., no privileged
>>>> instructions such as I/O operations) which allowed for system services similar
>>>> to dynamic libraries in modern Unix-style operating systems, but serving a
>>>> different purpose.  User mode was the bog standard mode for any program not
>>>> requiring elevated privileges.
>>>> 
>>>> (Public mode was used by the system services such as spoolers so that user
>>>> programs did not need to use system calls to interact with unit record
>>>> equipment.)
>>>> 
>>>>> As with most[*] ring-based privilege architectures, ring switches were
>>>>> expensive and I believe once they went to Alpha, that architecture was
>>>>> pretty much dead.
>>>> 
>>>> The KI model was not ring-based in the way that I understand rings (based on
>>>> early Multics writings, mostly); it was simply a matter of a couple of bits in
>>>> the process status.
>>> 
>>> It's changing between rings that is the primary issue as that often
>>> includes a change in the memory context (e.g. x86 segment, active page
>>> table) resulting in a performance hit.   E.g. UUO's/system calls.
>>> 
>> 
>> Some systems (Sigma) had different register sets for different processor
>> modes. Memory is cheap these days, why not different caches?
> 
> Indeed, it's difficult to compare systems designed 40 to 50 years ago
> with modern processors.
> 
> But even today, nobody uses more than two of the four rings on Intel
> processors.  (well, technically, one can consider VM-X/SVM a ring,
> and SMM mode can also be considered a ring, and in both cases,
> crossing the ring boundary isn't cheap - see VMEXIT).
> 

OS/2 uses three (and no, it’s not completely dead yet)

-- 
Pete

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#220290

On 08/03/2022 14:49, Peter Flass wrote:
> Some systems (Sigma) had different register sets for different processor
> modes. Memory is cheap these days, why not different caches?

Because you'll get more bang for your buck by having one big cache 
instead of two small ones.

Cache still isn't cheap.

Andy

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#220291

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>On 08/03/2022 14:49, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Some systems (Sigma) had different register sets for different processor
>> modes. Memory is cheap these days, why not different caches?
>
>Because you'll get more bang for your buck by having one big cache 
>instead of two small ones.
>
>Cache still isn't cheap.

Indeed. However, many high-end server processors[*] implement some form of
programmable cache partitioning where portions of the cache (at any or
all levels of hierarchy) can be reserved for certain applications (or rings), and
then there are PCI Express steering tags, which allow inbound DMA to
be directed to one or more of the cache levels without going through
memory first.

[*] e.g. ARMv8 processors like the Neoverse N2 with MPAM.

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#220270

On 2022-03-07 02:43, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> 
>> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already
>> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm
>> about to give, but anyway...
> 
>> On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote:
> 
>>> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS.
> 
>> Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich.
> 
>> As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that
>> enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't
>> very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things.
> 
> I have in personal collection an advertisement from a UK magazine of the
> Scientific American sort for the PDP-6 which touts it as a large system
> available both for batch and for timesharing operations for a large number
> of users.  It was clearly positioned to compete with IBM and the rest of the
> Seven Dwarves.  (I do not believe that they had contracted into the BUNCH by
> the 2nd quarter of 1964.)
> 
> On those grounds I will claim that it was considered to be a mainframe.  KO
> clearly considered it to be such when he declared (following its failure in the
> marketplace) that DEC would not compete with IBM.

Fair enough. I would still consider both Tops-10 and TOPS-20 to be very 
interactive centered. Not really mainframe, except for size and approach 
to solve some problems using smaller processors attach and offload stuff 
to them.

>> TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a much
>> more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have some features
>> and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more mainframe-oriented? What
>> does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse from an execution point of
>> view than VMS, requiring more resources to get the job done. But VMS isn't
>> really any kind of batch oriented environment either...
> 
> DEC positioned the DEC-20 and TOPS-20 as *replacements* for Tops-10 on the
> earlier generations of the PDP-10.  If we can agree that DEC marketed those as
> mainframe systems, then we have to accept that the -20 was also intended as a
> mainframe.

I think part of the problem that this all becomes just labels for 
marketing. Does it mean anything, and if so - what?

I don't think the differences between VMS and the PDP-10 OSes are that 
radical. They are basically useful and used in the same type of 
environments.

>> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...]
>> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here.
>> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the
>> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in
>> TOPS-10 it's EXEC.
> 
> Most of the discussion of DCL which I see on comp.os.vms has to do with the
> scripting features rather than interactive use, so that's what I tend to think
> of when asked to compare the PDP-10 offerings to it.

Fair enough. I just got the impression that the OP in this case was 
trying to understand the differences perceived by an interactive user.

>> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name
>> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's
>> just so much nicer than DCL.
> 
> You get no argument from me!

:-)

   Johnny

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#220218

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

>> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the
>> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a

> 	PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS.
> 	VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS.

There is not such thing as "TOPS".  There were 2 operating systems available
from DEC for the PDP-10 architecture, named "Tops-10" and "TOPS-20".  (There
were others, such as MIT AI Lab's ITS, the Stanford AI Lab's WAITS, and BBN's
TENEX.)

Tops-10 was the older system, a direct development of the monitor developed for
the PDP-6.  It featured a wide array of device types, including realtime
capabilities, and a very low level I/O model in which the programmer had to
know details of the device(s) for which she was writing (buffer sizes, how many
buffers to specify for best operation, etc.).  System calls were created using
hardware instruction traps ("Unimplemented User Opcodes" or UUOs).

TOPS-20 was created for the third generation PDP-10, based on the research OS
TENEX from BBN (which was created to explore demand-paged virtual memory on the
first generation PDP-10).  The only direct I/O access was to disks and tapes;
everything else was mediated through the PDP-11/40 front end processor (or
other PDP-11/34 processors for things like DECnet).  There was only a single
system call instruction, JSYS "Jump to SYStem", with massive internal dispatch
tables to handle every contingency; I/O was handled by means of particular JSYS
calls, and internally handled by the page mapping hardware.

ITS started as an experiment on the PDP-6, and used the same model for I/O as
the DEC monitor, although the details and implementations were sui generis.

WAITS grew out of DEC's PDP-6 monitor, with updates to the PDP-10 version until
1972, at which time the two went their separate ways.  WAITS used the same I/O
model as the DEC monitor, although hardware I/O instructions were available to
user mode programs without privilege escalation (for use with specialized
hardware like robot arms).

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#220220

On 03 Mar 2022 15:24:16 -0500
Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT
> > scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> 
> >> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the
> >> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a
> 
> > 	PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS.
> > 	VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS.
> 
> There is not such thing as "TOPS".  There were 2 operating systems
> available from DEC for the PDP-10 architecture, named "Tops-10" and
> "TOPS-20".  (There were others, such as MIT AI Lab's ITS, the Stanford AI
> Lab's WAITS, and BBN's TENEX.)

	Yes I was using TOPS as a shorthand for "TOPS-10 or TOPS-20".

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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#220243

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On 03 Mar 2022 15:24:16 -0500
> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:

>> There is not such thing as "TOPS".  There were 2 operating systems
>> available from DEC for the PDP-10 architecture, named "Tops-10" and
>> "TOPS-20".  (There were others, such as MIT AI Lab's ITS, the Stanford AI
>> Lab's WAITS, and BBN's TENEX.)

> 	Yes I was using TOPS as a shorthand for "TOPS-10 or TOPS-20".

A bad habit, since the two operating systems shared exactly zero features and
exactly zero code.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#220228

Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> writes:
>> On Saturday March 5th, 2022 SDF will kick off its TOPS-20 Boot Camp series
>> on https://twitch.tv/sdfpubnix at 1PM Pacific Time (9PM GMT).  Registration
>> is open at https://twenex.org/?bootcamp which includes access to SDF's
>> XKL Toad-2 and is offered at no cost.
>> 
>> If you cannot attend an archive of the live stream (approximately 
>> 1 hour long) will be posted to the fediverse via SDF's Peertube instance, 
>> https://toobnix.org
>> 
>> Looking forward to doing a "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users", though any User
>> of any operating system background is certainly welcome, kid.
>> 
> 
> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the PDP-10
> vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a nostalgia or DEC politics
> standpoint?  My migration at the time was from a PDP-8 to PDP-11 to VAX-11.
> 

I’ve used both, although my -10 knowledge is 50 years old and not as
in-depth as I’d like. I’d say that the PDP-10 was more RISCy, and a
programmer’s dream to program in MACRO.

-- 
Pete

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#220262

On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>"Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> writes:
>>On Saturday March 5th, 2022 SDF will kick off its TOPS-20 Boot Camp series
>>on https://twitch.tv/sdfpubnix at 1PM Pacific Time (9PM GMT).  Registration
>>is open at https://twenex.org/?bootcamp which includes access to SDF's
>>XKL Toad-2 and is offered at no cost.
>>
>>If you cannot attend an archive of the live stream (approximately 
>>1 hour long) will be posted to the fediverse via SDF's Peertube instance, 
>>https://toobnix.org
>>
>>Looking forward to doing a "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users", though any User
>>of any operating system background is certainly welcome, kid.
>>
>
>Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the PDP-10
>vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a nostalgia or DEC politics
>standpoint?  My migration at the time was from a PDP-8 to PDP-11 to VAX-11.

I didn't have access to the 11/780. The campus I was on had the
11/730. What differences for it ?

--  
Jim

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#220265

D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>"Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> writes:
>>>On Saturday March 5th, 2022 SDF will kick off its TOPS-20 Boot Camp series
>>>on https://twitch.tv/sdfpubnix at 1PM Pacific Time (9PM GMT).  Registration
>>>is open at https://twenex.org/?bootcamp which includes access to SDF's
>>>XKL Toad-2 and is offered at no cost.
>>>
>>>If you cannot attend an archive of the live stream (approximately 
>>>1 hour long) will be posted to the fediverse via SDF's Peertube instance, 
>>>https://toobnix.org
>>>
>>>Looking forward to doing a "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users", though any User
>>>of any operating system background is certainly welcome, kid.
>>>
>>
>>Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the PDP-10
>>vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a nostalgia or DEC politics
>>standpoint?  My migration at the time was from a PDP-8 to PDP-11 to VAX-11.
>
>I didn't have access to the 11/780. The campus I was on had the
>11/730. What differences for it ?

From the perspective of the average user, there was no difference
between the 11/730, 11/750 or 11/780 other than absolute performance.

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#220280

On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 17:03:45 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
>D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>"Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> writes:
>>>>On Saturday March 5th, 2022 SDF will kick off its TOPS-20 Boot Camp series
>>>>on https://twitch.tv/sdfpubnix at 1PM Pacific Time (9PM GMT).  Registration
>>>>is open at https://twenex.org/?bootcamp which includes access to SDF's
>>>>XKL Toad-2 and is offered at no cost.
>>>>
>>>>If you cannot attend an archive of the live stream (approximately 
>>>>1 hour long) will be posted to the fediverse via SDF's Peertube instance, 
>>>>https://toobnix.org
>>>>
>>>>Looking forward to doing a "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users", though any User
>>>>of any operating system background is certainly welcome, kid.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the PDP-10
>>>vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a nostalgia or DEC politics
>>>standpoint?  My migration at the time was from a PDP-8 to PDP-11 to VAX-11.
>>
>>I didn't have access to the 11/780. The campus I was on had the
>>11/730. What differences for it ?
>
>From the perspective of the average user, there was no difference
>between the 11/730, 11/750 or 11/780 other than absolute performance.

I know the 730 I used was slower than the 780 on main campus. I think
it used fewer vt102 terminals as well.

One of the professors tried to run ADA on the 730. Incredibly slow.
--  
Jim

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#220281

On 2022-03-08, D.J <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 17:03:45 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>>D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
>>>On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> writes:
>>>>>On Saturday March 5th, 2022 SDF will kick off its TOPS-20 Boot Camp series
>>>>>on https://twitch.tv/sdfpubnix at 1PM Pacific Time (9PM GMT).  Registration
>>>>>is open at https://twenex.org/?bootcamp which includes access to SDF's
>>>>>XKL Toad-2 and is offered at no cost.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you cannot attend an archive of the live stream (approximately 
>>>>>1 hour long) will be posted to the fediverse via SDF's Peertube instance, 
>>>>>https://toobnix.org
>>>>>
>>>>>Looking forward to doing a "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users", though any User
>>>>>of any operating system background is certainly welcome, kid.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the PDP-10
>>>>vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a nostalgia or DEC politics
>>>>standpoint?  My migration at the time was from a PDP-8 to PDP-11 to VAX-11.
>>>
>>>I didn't have access to the 11/780. The campus I was on had the
>>>11/730. What differences for it ?
>>
>>From the perspective of the average user, there was no difference
>>between the 11/730, 11/750 or 11/780 other than absolute performance.
>
> I know the 730 I used was slower than the 780 on main campus. I think
> it used fewer vt102 terminals as well.
>
> One of the professors tried to run ADA on the 730. Incredibly slow.
> --  
> Jim

The only advantage with the 730 I used was it had the REAL*16 (128 bit IEEE floating point) built in, the 750 & 780 machines required upgrades. So the 730 was actually faster for operations using real*16 operations.

It was also faster because nobody wanted to use it.

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#220287

On 2022-03-08 05:13, Fred Smith wrote:
> On 2022-03-08, D.J <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 17:03:45 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>> D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> I didn't have access to the 11/780. The campus I was on had the
>>>> 11/730. What differences for it ?
>>>
>> >From the perspective of the average user, there was no difference
>>> between the 11/730, 11/750 or 11/780 other than absolute performance.
>>
>> I know the 730 I used was slower than the 780 on main campus. I think
>> it used fewer vt102 terminals as well.

Like Chuck said. Performance.

>> One of the professors tried to run ADA on the 730. Incredibly slow.
>> --
>> Jim
> 
> The only advantage with the 730 I used was it had the REAL*16 (128 bit IEEE floating point) built in, the 750 & 780 machines required upgrades. So the 730 was actually faster for operations using real*16 operations.

VAX don't do IEEE floating point. But yes, H_FLOAT in hardware was an 
addon on those machines. Otherwise it had to be done in software, which 
was indeed slower.

> It was also faster because nobody wanted to use it.

Only if the larger machines were in use, of course. :-)
But yeah. Being along on a machine usually helped.

   Johnny

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