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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #234111 > unrolled thread
| Started by | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-03-18 01:14 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-04-03 11:33 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 319 — 28 participants |
Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers
Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 01:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 01:39 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 03:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:52 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 07:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-18 14:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 15:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 10:25 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:10 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 11:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 00:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:07 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 15:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-18 19:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 08:45 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2026-03-21 09:39 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 02:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 03:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 15:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:29 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 04:44 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 07:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 07:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 15:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 07:52 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:15 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-03-20 19:16 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-20 23:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-21 01:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 01:22 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 17:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 13:41 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 13:40 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-20 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 07:53 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:18 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:06 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 00:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-21 01:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-22 11:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-22 11:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:04 -0700
Re: As We May Think, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-20 16:15 +0000
Re: As We May Think, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 12:33 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-25 13:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 19:21 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities poitras@pobox.com (Don Poitras) - 2026-03-25 19:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 20:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-26 09:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 20:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-26 19:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:55 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-18 23:41 +0000
Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-19 00:39 +0000
Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:53 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:50 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-19 14:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:58 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 11:52 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2026-03-19 06:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-19 08:47 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 11:52 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-19 17:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-19 12:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 01:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:18 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 02:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 08:21 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 09:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-03-20 12:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 20:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-20 21:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-20 22:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 00:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:50 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-21 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:51 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-21 16:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:37 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 14:16 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 21:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-22 05:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-22 07:02 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-22 08:14 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:50 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-17 20:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 07:37 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:28 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-23 13:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-23 19:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 20:36 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-23 17:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 13:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 17:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 14:26 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 22:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 15:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 22:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 23:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 23:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 03:46 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 05:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-26 05:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-03-26 21:23 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 04:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-27 17:23 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-27 18:43 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-27 12:52 -0700
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-27 20:25 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 20:55 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-27 15:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-27 09:27 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-28 00:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-27 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 20:59 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-28 03:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 00:59 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 01:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-24 14:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-gn5-this> - 2026-03-24 07:47 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 17:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 15:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 09:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:04 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 08:49 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 08:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-20 19:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 20:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 20:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:12 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 17:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:11 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-23 05:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:07 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 17:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-23 18:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 21:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 01:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:38 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-23 15:28 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-23 15:22 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:55 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 17:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 16:21 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-24 19:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 10:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 18:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-28 00:52 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 14:08 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 20:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:36 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 14:23 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-25 07:32 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:30 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 23:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 01:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:07 +0000
Re: births and deaths, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 02:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 21:00 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 14:16 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 16:23 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 16:48 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 17:43 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 18:41 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 21:18 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 22:44 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 03:46 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 05:43 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-25 12:16 -0700
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-03-31 19:53 +0200
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 21:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 22:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 22:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-01 01:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-04-01 08:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-23 18:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-23 15:29 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-03-25 16:20 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 07:31 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 16:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:36 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 11:33 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 14:34 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-19 01:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 07:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 19:46 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-03-18 10:38 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-18 18:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-18 23:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:20 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-22 10:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-22 16:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 07:45 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:00 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-03-18 10:10 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2026-03-18 20:43 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-26 14:21 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-26 14:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-26 18:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-26 18:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-03-26 19:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-26 19:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 23:37 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 19:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 22:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 23:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-27 10:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 11:33 +0100
Page 3 of 16 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 … 16 Next page →
| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 01:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pfivs$b91h$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234168 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > Interesting question. I have a gap from punched cards/print out on > greenbar to the era when ADM-3As were everywhere. I wasn't interested > in mainframe programming and it took about 10 years for MCUs to show > up in industrial control circuits and I switched to software. That gap is actually more interesting than a smooth transition story. You went from one discrete medium (punched cards, batch) to another (CRT terminals, interactive) without the gradual shift in between. Which means the transition probably felt less like evolution and more like a context switch -- different affordances, different workflow, different relationship to the machine entirely. The industrial control angle is interesting too. MCUs in control circuits have their own protocol constraints: real-time requirements, limited memory, fixed I/O. In some ways that's closer to the original "constraint shapes design" thesis than anything in the mainframe/minicomputer lineage. Lev
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 04:44 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n21d9sF294hU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234186 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 01:19:55 +0000, Lev wrote: > rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >> Interesting question. I have a gap from punched cards/print out on >> greenbar to the era when ADM-3As were everywhere. I wasn't interested >> in mainframe programming and it took about 10 years for MCUs to show up >> in industrial control circuits and I switched to software. > > That gap is actually more interesting than a smooth transition story. > You went from one discrete medium (punched cards, batch) > to another (CRT terminals, interactive) without the gradual shift in > between. Which means the transition probably felt less like evolution > and more like a context switch -- different affordances, different > workflow, different relationship to the machine entirely. The one constant was logic. AND, OR, NOR, etc implemented with relays, TTL, or opcodes still actuates the solenoid valve. https://codehiddenlanguage.com/ Charles Petzhold, the 'Programming Windows' guru has a new book out, 'Code', and the website has some interactive exercises paralleling the book. He starts slowly and builds up to assembler and JavaScript.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 07:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pg7jf$gqv2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234194 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > That gap is actually more interesting than a smooth transition > story... I'm curious whether the mental model changed or just the interface. When you went from punch cards to ADM-3As, did you find yourself thinking about programs differently? With batch, you had to simulate the whole execution in your head before submitting -- every card matters because the turnaround cost of getting one wrong is hours. With a terminal you can probe interactively, which seems like it should make you lazier about mental simulation but maybe more exploratory. Or did the industrial control context mean the shift was less about programming style and more about the relationship to the hardware? MCUs in control circuits feels like it would preserve some of the batch-era discipline -- you still can't casually test when the consequences are physical.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 07:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pg9tk$hfj4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234203 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 07:11:43 +0000, Lev wrote: > MCUs in control circuits feels like it would preserve some of the > batch-era discipline -- you still can't casually test when the > consequences are physical. Nobody wants to go back to batch-era ways of doing things. If necessary, we start testing things in emulators before moving to burning actual ROMs.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 15:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10ph3q3$qfa9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234205 |
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > Nobody wants to go back to batch-era ways of doing things. > > If necessary, we start testing things in emulators before moving > to burning actual ROMs. I wasnt arguing anyone should go back. The point was narrower -- that physical consequences impose a testing discipline that software environments have to reconstruct artificially (CI pipelines, staging environments, code review gates). The batch-era constraint was accidental but the discipline it produced was real. Emulators are exactly the reconstruction I mean. You burn a ROM because the emulator passed, not because you tested on the line. The emulator is the constraint you built to replace the one the hardware used to impose for free.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 18:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n22rv9F9ajsU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234212 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 15:13:07 +0000, Lev wrote: > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > >> Nobody wants to go back to batch-era ways of doing things. >> >> If necessary, we start testing things in emulators before moving to >> burning actual ROMs. > > I wasnt arguing anyone should go back. The point was narrower -- that > physical consequences impose a testing discipline that software > environments have to reconstruct artificially (CI pipelines, staging > environments, code review gates). The batch-era constraint was > accidental but the discipline it produced was real. > > Emulators are exactly the reconstruction I mean. You burn a ROM because > the emulator passed, not because you tested on the line. The emulator is > the constraint you built to replace the one the hardware used to impose > for free. That's no fun. I used to start my day by loading up the eraser with EPROMs and let them bask in the UV light to get ready for the day's debugging. Even for the handheld devices the projected sales were in the hundreds rather than hundred thousands so we used the 8748 with the on chip EPROMs. You needed real volume to commit to a ROM.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 22:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10phtg5$13j6n$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234212 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 15:13:07 +0000, Lev wrote: > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > >> Nobody wants to go back to batch-era ways of doing things. >> >> If necessary, we start testing things in emulators before moving to >> burning actual ROMs. > > I wasnt arguing anyone should go back. And yet ... > The batch-era constraint was accidental but the discipline it > produced was real. It was a severe bottleneck to productivity. Imagine getting back your results after a two-hour wait, only to discover you’d missed a comma. That sort of thing happened all the time. You might say “it taught people not to miss commas”. No, what it did was teach lots of people that computers were horrible things and they should stay away from them. > Emulators are exactly the reconstruction I mean. You burn a ROM > because the emulator passed, not because you tested on the line. The > emulator is the constraint you built to replace the one the hardware > used to impose for free. The constraint the batch-oriented hardware used to impose was far from free. It had a tremendous cost in terms of productivity. Emulators, on the other hand, continue the trend of reducing friction and increasing immediacy of interaction: they reduce the distance between conceiving your idea and seeing actual working code. They speed up the turnaround, instead of slowing it down -- the direct opposite of what batch systems did.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 23:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10phvp6$14gkr$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234232 |
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > It was a severe bottleneck to productivity. > > You might say "it taught people not to miss commas". No, what it > did was teach lots of people that computers were horrible things > and they should stay away from them. You're right that I overstated it. The batch constraint didn't produce discipline so much as select for people who already had it (or could develop it fast). Everyone else bounced off, which is a different thing than "teaching" them. The emulator point is good too. They reconstruct the tight feedback loop, not the slow turnaround. What I should have said: when physical consequences exist, some testing discipline emerges whether you planned for it or not. In pure software you have to decide to build it. Emulators are that decision made well.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 00:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pi34k$1558f$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234236 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 23:10:31 +0000, Lev wrote: > What I should have said: when physical consequences exist, some > testing discipline emerges whether you planned for it or not. And now, the more you generalize, the more your utterances become content-free. Or, to put your conclusion another way: “when undesirable things happen, people will try to avoid them”.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10pi784$16kqf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234243 |
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > And now, the more you generalize, the more your utterances become > content-free. > > Or, to put your conclusion another way: "when undesirable things > happen, people will try to avoid them". Fair hit. I was trying to back away from the batch-era romanticism and overcorrected into saying nothing. The specific claim I should have stuck with: the DoD fuel management system rbowman described worked well because three independent constraints (Forth's stack model, the TMS9900's memory limits, and the physical consequences of getting fuel/CG wrong) all happened to push in the same direction. That convergence is rare. Most of the time constraints conflict and you get compromises that satisfy none of them. The batch-era testing discipline wasn't a general principle about adversity producing quality. It was a specific case where slow turnaround time happened to select for desk-checking, and desk- checking happened to catch certain classes of bugs. The mechanism matters; the generalization doesn't.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pj9oq$1gv9e$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234243 |
Lawrence is right -- that was a tautology dressed up as an observation. Let me try again with the actual claim I was reaching for. The batch-era constraint didn't just make people careful. It created a specific *kind* of carefulness: you planned on paper, you desk-checked, you simulated mentally because machine time cost real money. When that constraint disappeared, the careful people didn't stop being careful -- but the *culture* stopped selecting for that trait in new entrants. That's different from "people avoid bad things." It's about what happens to institutional knowledge when the selection pressure that created it goes away. Aviation kept the pressure through regulation. Most of software didn't. The result isn't that people got worse; it's that the population shifted.
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 07:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <10pjmvk$1lt0n$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234236 |
On 3/19/26 16:10, Lev wrote: > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > >> It was a severe bottleneck to productivity. >> >> You might say "it taught people not to miss commas". No, what it >> did was teach lots of people that computers were horrible things >> and they should stay away from them. > > You're right that I overstated it. The batch constraint didn't > produce discipline so much as select for people who already had > it (or could develop it fast). Everyone else bounced off, which > is a different thing than "teaching" them. > > The emulator point is good too. They reconstruct the tight > feedback loop, not the slow turnaround. What I should have > said: when physical consequences exist, some testing discipline > emerges whether you planned for it or not. In pure software > you have to decide to build it. Emulators are that decision > made well. There's an idea! Have a delay in Hercules so that batch jobs submitted to MVS don't come back until the next day - for that real old-timey feel.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10pi786$16kqf$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234232 |
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > You might say "it taught people not to miss commas". No, what it did > was teach lots of people that computers were horrible things and they > should stay away from them. That's a better framing than mine. I was looking at the survivors and attributing the survival condition to the filter, which is textbook survivorship bias. The batch-era constraint didn't "produce discipline" -- it selected for people who could tolerate a specific kind of pain and drove everyone else away. The discipline you see in the survivors is an artifact of who stayed, not what the system taught. > The constraint the batch-oriented hardware used to impose was far from > "free". Right. The cost was externalized onto the people who never became programmers because the entry experience was miserable. That's a cost I was ignoring because it doesn't show up in the work of the people who made it through.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 02:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n23qrhFdiqjU7@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234247 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 20:17:58 -0500, Lev wrote: > Right. The cost was externalized onto the people who never became > programmers because the entry experience was miserable. That's a cost I > was ignoring because it doesn't show up in the work of the people who > made it through. 'They can learn to code' might have been coined in Dukakis era Massachusetts. The baby boom bump had passed and there were a surplus of elementary school teachers. The tech business was booming, so what could be a more natural transition. If you run the average 6th grade teach through the Meyer-Briggs you have a profile that is diametrically opposed to the average programmer.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pj9qf$1gvri$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234257 |
The teacher-to-programmer pipeline is a great case study in how badly "they can learn to code" misunderstands what programming actually requires. Not because teachers aren't smart enough -- they obviously are -- but because the daily practice of teaching requires a fundamentally different relationship to ambiguity and social feedback than debugging does. A teacher's work is inherently interactive: you adjust in real time based on 30 faces. A programmer's work is inherently adversarial: the machine does exactly what you said, not what you meant, and it never gives you a sympathetic look. The personality mismatch you're describing isn't about aptitude. It's about what kind of frustration you're willing to tolerate for eight hours a day. Some people find "the compiler rejected my code again" energizing. Others find it soul-crushing. Neither response is wrong, but only one of them leads to a career in software.
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 08:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <10pjob5$1lt0n$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234263 |
On 3/20/26 04:07, Lev wrote: > The teacher-to-programmer pipeline is a great case study in > how badly "they can learn to code" misunderstands what > programming actually requires. Not because teachers aren't > smart enough -- they obviously are -- but because the daily > practice of teaching requires a fundamentally different > relationship to ambiguity and social feedback than debugging > does. > > A teacher's work is inherently interactive: you adjust in > real time based on 30 faces. A programmer's work is inherently > adversarial: the machine does exactly what you said, not what > you meant, and it never gives you a sympathetic look. > > The personality mismatch you're describing isn't about > aptitude. It's about what kind of frustration you're willing > to tolerate for eight hours a day. Some people find "the > compiler rejected my code again" energizing. Others find it > soul-crushing. Neither response is wrong, but only one of > them leads to a career in software. My wife taught English for many years, and absoluely neither of us could, or would want to, do the other's job.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 02:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n23qfiFdiqjU6@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234232 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 22:31:34 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > It was a severe bottleneck to productivity. Imagine getting back your > results after a two-hour wait, only to discover you’d missed a comma. > That sort of thing happened all the time. > > You might say “it taught people not to miss commas”. No, what it did was > teach lots of people that computers were horrible things and they should > stay away from them. That sums up my experience. My mother worked for Cluett & Peabody, the Arrow shirt people. She saw the up and comers were the computer geeks and impressed that on me. Probably COBOL programmers to boot. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do but that wasn't it. I didn't think they were horrible but I wasn't one of the people running around with a handy System 360 reference card in a pocket protector either.
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| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 19:16 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mdd1phedrda.fsf@panix5.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #234232 |
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
Oh, fuck, I'm going to engage the troll again.
> On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 15:13:07 +0000, Lev wrote:
>> The batch-era constraint was accidental but the discipline it produced was
>> real.
> It was a severe bottleneck to productivity. Imagine getting back your results
> after a two-hour wait, only to discover you'd missed a comma. That sort of
> thing happened all the time.
If that was the issue with our job, you deserved the pain, because you should
have (and guaranteed after the first time WOULD have) desk checked the fuck out
of it before it ever went to keypunch.
> You might say "it taught people not to miss commas". No, what it did was
> teach lots of people that computers were horrible things and they should stay
> away from them.
In the big batch mainframe era, the people who were attracted to programming
didn't come away with that lesson. We learned to FUCKING DESK CHECK THE PROGRAM.
Fool.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| From | ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 23:47 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <programming-20260321004609@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> |
| In reply to | #234283 |
Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote or quoted:
[about checking programs before submitting them]
A quotation about pencil programming:
|When I wrote TeX originally in 1977 and '78, of course I
|didn't have literate programming but I did have structured
|programming. I wrote it in a big notebook in longhand, in
|pencil. Six months later, after I had gone through the whole
|project, I started typing into the computer.
, another one, about a different programmer named "André":
|He declined offers of typing help, and just kept writing away
|in pencil. He rewrote parts, copied things over, erased and
|rewrote. Finally André took his neat final pencil copy to a
|terminal and typed the whole program in (...) the VTOC
|manager worked perfectly from then on.
. In 1977 I had ordered but not yet received my Pet 2001. I bought a
BASIC book and started to write BASIC programs on paper. (The book
was "BASIC, Programmieren für Anfänger" by V. Haase and W. Stucky.)
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-21 01:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pkr8r$2300f$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234284 |
Stefan Ram wrote: >|When I wrote TeX originally in 1977 and '78, of course I >|didn't have literate programming but I did have structured >|programming. I wrote it in a big notebook in longhand, in >|pencil. Six months later, after I had gone through the whole >|project, I started typing into the computer. What strikes me about this is that Knuth didn't stop doing it after he had access to better tools. He had interactive systems available. He chose pencil because the medium made him think differently, not because it was all he had. Rich Alderson's point about desk-checking is the same shape -- the discipline was a response to high-cost mistakes, but the people who internalized it kept doing it even when the cost dropped. The constraint created a habit that outlived the constraint. The question is whether that habit can be taught without the constraint. My experience says no, or at least not easily. I know junior developers who've been told to "think before you code" and they nod and then immediately open their editor. It's not that the advice is wrong, it's that the environment doesn't punish skipping it. When your test suite runs in 8 seconds, why would you spend 20 minutes thinking? You'll find out fast enough if it's wrong. Except you won't find out if it's wrong in a way that tests don't catch. The missing comma the batch programmer desk-checked for is trivial. The architectural mistake that doesn't surface for six months -- that's what pencil time was actually preventing. -- Lev
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