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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #230668 > unrolled thread

General Thoughts ...

Started byLars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>
First post2025-04-26 13:28 +0000
Last post2025-04-28 08:32 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 341 — 35 participants

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Contents

  General Thoughts ... Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2025-04-26 13:28 +0000
    Re: General Thoughts ... vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-26 14:06 +0000
      Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-04-26 14:54 +0000
        Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-26 16:02 +0000
          Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-04-26 16:24 +0000
        Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2025-04-26 21:10 -0400
          Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-04-27 14:21 +0000
            Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-05-01 14:17 +0100
        Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-04-27 01:36 +0000
        Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2025-05-03 14:46 -0400
          Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 21:54 +0200
          Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-03 20:56 +0000
          Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 21:54 +0000
            Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2025-05-12 20:18 +0000
            Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-05-13 09:44 +0100
              Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-13 18:59 +0000
            Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-14 15:38 +0100
              Re: Internet Service Provision (Re: General Thoughts ...) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-21 17:59 +0000
      Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-27 13:30 +0200
        Re: General Thoughts ... Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-04-27 13:48 +0000
          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-27 19:57 +0000
        Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-27 19:51 +0000
        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-28 01:45 +0000
          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 02:28 +0000
            Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-04-28 02:58 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-28 03:19 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 07:54 +0200
            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-28 12:31 +0200
              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 20:08 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 10:43 +0200
                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 19:09 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 21:45 +0200
                      Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-04-29 23:09 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 23:19 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 00:45 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2025-04-30 17:11 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:57 +0000
                            Re: General Thoughts ... drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2025-05-01 05:16 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 23:40 +0000
                            Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-01 04:45 +0000
                              Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 05:03 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2025-05-12 20:35 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> - 2025-05-01 11:03 +0200
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Jan van den Broek <balglaas@dds.nl> - 2025-05-01 09:10 +0000
                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 00:33 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 08:47 +0200
                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:53 +0000
                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:33 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 08:50 +0200
              Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:31 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 10:44 +0200
                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:30 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 00:17 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 08:53 +0200
                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 07:14 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 09:37 +0200
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 08:03 +0000
                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 12:24 +0200
                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 18:53 +0000
                                Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-01 04:45 +0000
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 04:59 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-01 18:19 +0000
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:55 +0200
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:01 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-02 00:15 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 08:25 -0700
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 19:13 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 12:37 -0700
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-03 00:09 +0000
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2025-05-02 18:43 -0300
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:46 +0000
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-03 00:12 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 09:42 -0700
                              Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 23:39 +0000
                                Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-01 13:05 +0000
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-01 13:37 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 14:29 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 23:01 +0200
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:48 +0000
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 02:37 +0200
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-02 01:09 +0000
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:12 +0200
                                              Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-03 00:07 +0000
                                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 14:06 +0200
                                                  Re: General Thoughts ... Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-07 10:14 +0100
                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 12:27 +0200
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2025-05-12 20:41 +0000
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-12 23:09 +0200
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:29 +0000
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 02:45 +0200
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-13 09:52 +0100
                                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-13 19:03 +0000
                                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 22:03 +0200
                                                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-14 03:20 +0000
                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 12:18 +0200
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:30 +0000
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:58 +0200
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:49 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-02 00:36 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 02:39 +0200
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-02 01:08 +0000
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:13 +0200
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-03 01:10 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 05:29 +0000
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2025-05-03 19:36 -0400
                                Re: General Thoughts ... vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-01 13:35 +0000
                      Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-30 13:18 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 23:03 +0200
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2025-05-05 11:15 +0300
            Re: General Thoughts ... Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-04-28 11:49 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 19:51 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:56 +0000
                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 01:00 +0000
            Re: General Thoughts ... Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-04-29 22:09 +0100
              Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:34 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-04-29 23:09 +0000
                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 23:20 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-04-30 03:51 +0000
                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 07:17 +0000
                      Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-04-30 16:21 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2025-04-30 11:21 -0700
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2025-05-01 02:37 -0300
                            Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-01 18:19 +0000
                              Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:52 +0000
                                Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-02 03:44 +0000
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-02 04:40 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-02 15:15 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-03 00:12 +0000
                                Re: General Thoughts ... Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2025-05-02 18:15 -0300
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-02 22:29 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-03 01:15 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:52 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2025-05-03 04:44 -0300
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-03 00:17 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 07:27 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:32 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-04-30 20:36 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-04-30 20:33 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 23:41 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 06:55 +0000
                            Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-01 08:02 -0700
                              Re: General Thoughts ... Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-01 20:32 +0000
                                Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:07 -0700
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:54 +0000
                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 01:01 +0000
                                Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 08:31 -0700
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 19:23 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 13:42 -0700
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-02 22:29 +0000
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-03 00:20 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 05:08 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-03 01:20 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-03 02:23 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 05:22 +0000
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 14:13 +0200
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 19:57 +0000
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 22:43 +0200
                                              Re: book em, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-05 00:40 +0000
                                                Re: book em, General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:25 +0200
                                                  Re: book em, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 17:35 +0000
                                                    Re: book em, General Thoughts ... Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2025-05-05 20:18 +0000
                                                      Re: book em, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 02:43 +0000
                                                    Re: book em, General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:07 +0200
                                                      Re: book em, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 02:59 +0000
                                                  Re: book em, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-05 20:16 +0000
                                                    Re: book em, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 03:33 +0000
                                                  Re: book em, General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-05 22:46 +0000
                                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 06:56 +0000
                                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:24 +0200
                                                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 18:43 +0000
                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-05 20:32 +0000
                                                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 03:42 +0000
                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:18 +0200
                                                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 04:09 +0000
                                                        Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 11:57 +0200
                                                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-07 18:45 +0000
                                                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 22:25 +0200
                                                              Re: General Thoughts ... Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-07 21:38 +0000
                                                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:07 +0200
                                                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-08 00:25 +0000
                                                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:17 +0200
                                                                  Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-08 17:14 +0000
                                                                    Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-08 19:02 +0000
                                                                    Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 22:42 +0200
                                                                      Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-09 00:48 +0000
                                                                        Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-09 01:19 +0000
                                                                          Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 12:33 +0200
                                                                        Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 12:31 +0200
                                                                          Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-09 18:43 +0000
                                                                            Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-09 19:16 +0000
                                                                              Re: unbook me, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-10 03:15 +0000
                                                                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-08 18:56 +0000
                                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 22:45 +0200
                                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-08 21:15 +0000
                                                                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-09 00:16 +0000
                                                                        Re: General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-09 00:42 +0000
                                                                          Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 12:34 +0200
                                                        Re: kindles, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-06 14:01 +0000
                                                          Re: kindles, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-07 19:03 +0000
                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-05 22:50 +0000
                                                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 04:15 +0000
                                                        Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-07 23:37 +0000
                                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:27 +0200
                                                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 18:14 +0000
                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:23 +0200
                                                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 04:24 +0000
                                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-05 22:54 +0000
                                                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 04:37 +0000
                                                        Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 08:28 -0700
                                                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-07 17:28 +0000
                                                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 22:28 +0200
                                                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-07 23:55 +0000
                                                          Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-07 23:44 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-04 21:33 +0000
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:18 +0200
                                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 17:52 +0000
                                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:25 +0200
                                                Re: all the news that, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-06 14:05 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-05 22:45 +0000
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 04:48 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 14:05 +0200
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 19:46 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-05 22:56 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 04:07 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-02 04:41 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-02 07:10 +0000
                            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 14:16 +0200
                              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 19:54 +0000
                                Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 22:46 +0200
                                Re: General Thoughts ... maus <maus@debian.deb3> - 2025-05-05 07:14 +0000
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 08:54 +0000
                                  Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:34 +0200
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 18:49 +0000
                                      Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:28 +0200
                                        Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 04:41 +0000
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 12:02 +0200
                                          Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-06 14:06 +0000
                                            Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-07 17:38 +0000
                                          Re: way to go, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-06 16:37 +0000
                                            Re: way to go, General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-06 18:38 +0000
                                              Re: way to go, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-07 17:59 +0000
                                                California toll road infection Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2025-05-07 11:16 -0700
                                                  Re: California toll road infection Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2025-05-07 17:57 -0400
                                                    Re: California toll road infection John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-08 00:16 +0000
                                                      Re: California toll road infection David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2025-05-11 17:27 +0000
                                                        cops, was: California toll road infection danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2025-05-11 17:33 +0000
                                                          Re: cops, was: California toll road infection "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 21:19 +0200
                                                            Re: cops, was: California toll road infection Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 01:29 +0000
                                                              Re: cops, was: California toll road infection danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2025-05-12 01:34 +0000
                                                                Re: cops, was: California toll road infection "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-12 13:15 +0200
                                                                  Re: bridge cops, was: California toll road infection John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-12 16:37 +0000
                                                                    Re: bridge cops, was: California toll road infection "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:36 +0200
                                                                      Re: bridge cops, was: California toll road infection John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-13 00:38 +0000
                                                            Re: cops, was: California toll road infection scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-12 14:18 +0000
                                                        Re: California toll road infection Thomas Prufer <prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> - 2025-05-12 07:42 +0200
                                                        Re: California toll road infection scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-12 14:16 +0000
                                                  Re: California toll road infection rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-08 00:27 +0000
                                                    Re: California toll road infection scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-08 13:35 +0000
                                                    Re: California toll road infection John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-08 17:28 +0000
                                                      Re: California toll road infection Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-08 22:54 +0000
                                                    Re: California toll road infection Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-09 20:35 +0000
                                                Re: way to go, General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-07 18:44 +0000
                                                Re: way to go, General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-07 20:35 +0000
                                            Re: way to go, General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-07 17:53 +0000
                                    Re: General Thoughts ... Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-20 10:33 +0100
                                      Re: Paying without Internet Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-21 17:56 +0000
                                        Re: Paying without Internet danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2025-05-21 20:05 +0000
                                          Re: Paying without Internet rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-21 21:19 +0000
                                        Re: Paying without Internet scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-21 20:46 +0000
                                        Re: Paying without Internet rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-21 21:13 +0000
                                          Re: Paying without Internet David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-05-21 22:31 +0100
                                          Re: Paying without Internet Chuck Martin <cmartin+usenetYYMMDD@nyx.net> - 2025-05-22 07:56 +0000
                                        Re: Paying without Internet Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-21 23:29 +0100
                                          Re: Paying without Internet rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-22 03:46 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 07:51 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2025-05-02 15:17 +0000
                            Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 19:03 +0000
                      Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:27 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-04-30 10:55 +0100
                  Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 12:27 +0200
                  Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 23:43 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-05-01 08:03 -0700
                    Re: General Thoughts ... Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-05-01 17:03 +0100
                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-01 20:39 +0000
                        Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-02 00:15 +0000
                          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 00:40 +0000
                            Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-05-02 07:10 +0000
                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:51 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 01:03 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-02 10:20 +0100
          Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-28 14:10 +0000
        Re: General Thoughts ... Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-04-29 15:11 +0100
          Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 19:55 +0200
            Re: General Thoughts ... Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-04-29 21:58 +0100
              Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 23:46 +0200
                Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 00:15 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-29 22:25 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2025-04-30 15:40 +0300
                Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:40 +0000
                  Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-30 20:32 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 07:07 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 23:47 +0000
          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 18:32 +0000
            Re: General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 20:52 +0200
          Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:40 +0000
            Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 01:19 +0000
              Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-04-30 02:14 +0000
                Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 07:19 +0000
                  Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 12:31 +0200
                  Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:05 +0000
                    Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2025-04-30 12:58 -0700
                      Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-30 20:35 +0000
                        Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 06:52 +0000
                      Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 06:44 +0000
                        Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-01 14:43 +0000
                Re: BASIC history, was General Thoughts ... Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2025-04-30 09:10 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-04-30 03:40 +0000
                Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 07:21 +0000
                  Re: General Thoughts ... Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-04-30 11:09 +0100
                    Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:19 +0000
                    Re: General Thoughts ... Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-05-01 13:20 +0100
                      Re: General Thoughts ... antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-01 17:00 +0000
                      Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:58 +0000
                  Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 19:11 +0000
    Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-26 14:55 +0000
      Re: General Thoughts ... drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2025-04-26 18:55 +0000
        Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-27 14:03 +0000
    Re: General Thoughts ... Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2025-04-26 20:02 -0300
      Re: General Thoughts ... Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-04-27 13:41 +0000
        Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-27 21:03 +0000
          Re: General Thoughts ... scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-04-27 22:45 +0000
            Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 01:51 +0000
        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-28 01:47 +0000
        Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-28 01:46 +0000
          Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 03:30 +0000
            Re: General Thoughts ... vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-28 04:48 +0000
              Re: General Thoughts ... rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 19:41 +0000
          Re: General Thoughts ... Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> - 2025-05-03 00:36 -0600
    Re: General Thoughts ... Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 01:22 +0000
    Re: General Thoughts ... Oscar Toledo G. <biyubi@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 01:26 +0000
    Re: General Thoughts ... John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 08:32 -0700

Page 7 of 18 — ← Prev page 1 … 5 6 [7] 8 9 … 18  Next page →


#230794

FromAl Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org>
Date2025-04-30 11:21 -0700
Message-ID<vutpnc$qvqk$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230791
On 4/30/25 9:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Also, in the case of web browsers, HTML has become so immensely complex
> that many open-source projects (e.g. Seamonkey) can't keep up.  I suspect
> this isn't an accident - consider the number of web sites where if you're
> not using Edge, it's "Back of the bus, boy!"
> 


The joy of having the web browser code base controlled by a duopoly who only care about their
smartphone products.

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#230828

FromMike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
Date2025-05-01 02:37 -0300
Message-ID<87h62428og.fsf@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to#230794
Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> writes:

> On 4/30/25 9:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>> Also, in the case of web browsers, HTML has become so immensely complex
>> that many open-source projects (e.g. Seamonkey) can't keep up.  

As a Seamonkey devotee, my impression (I'm not technically qualified
to have an opinion) is that it's (dependence on) javascript that
causes the worst problems (crashes, hangs), followed by style sheets
(rendering unreadable or parts hidden).  Typically, I turn both off
and have way fewer problems.  HTML per se seems to work pretty
reliably.  An exception might be the TEMPLATE tag that intentionally
hides part of the page.

Is this impression a more or less correct assessment?  HTML was *such*
a good idea and js is *such* an abomination.

>> I suspect this isn't an accident - consider the number of web sites
>> where if you're not using Edge, it's "Back of the bus, boy!"
> 
> The joy of having the web browser code base controlled by a duopoly
> who only care about their smartphone products.

Feh.  I had no idea.  I guess I don't get out of my badger hole
enough.  I have a cell phone because I'm an Old Guy who can no longer
count on walking home from anywhere I find myself but I don't much
like it.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#230853

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2025-05-01 18:19 +0000
Message-ID<MWOQP.5$Ghwb.3@fx10.iad>
In reply to#230828
On 2025-05-01, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> writes:
>
>> On 4/30/25 9:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> 
>>> Also, in the case of web browsers, HTML has become so immensely complex
>>> that many open-source projects (e.g. Seamonkey) can't keep up.  
>
> As a Seamonkey devotee, my impression (I'm not technically qualified
> to have an opinion) is that it's (dependence on) javascript that
> causes the worst problems (crashes, hangs), followed by style sheets
> (rendering unreadable or parts hidden).  Typically, I turn both off
> and have way fewer problems.  HTML per se seems to work pretty
> reliably.  An exception might be the TEMPLATE tag that intentionally
> hides part of the page.
>
> Is this impression a more or less correct assessment?  HTML was *such*
> a good idea and js is *such* an abomination.

That sounds pretty much spot on.  My browser of choice is Seamonkey
plus NoScript.  The first thing I do when something doesn't work right
is to tell NoScript to temporarily allow everything for the current site.

A number of web sites will render a page, then immediately blank it out.
Dropbox will briefly display a page, then blank it out and display the
message most hated by any competent developer: "Something went wrong."
And I've been seeing an increasing number of pages which will display
the first page but refuse to scroll.  On Reddit you can see the question
but never the answer.

I keep a copy of Firefox for such cases, but I hate using it.
I switched to Seamonkey when Firefox version 29 changed the
user interface in ways I didn't like, and it's just gotten
worse since then.

>>> I suspect this isn't an accident - consider the number of web sites
>>> where if you're not using Edge, it's "Back of the bus, boy!"
>> 
>> The joy of having the web browser code base controlled by a duopoly
>> who only care about their smartphone products.
>
> Feh.  I had no idea.  I guess I don't get out of my badger hole
> enough.  I have a cell phone because I'm an Old Guy who can no longer
> count on walking home from anywhere I find myself but I don't much
> like it.

At least mine is a flip phone.  It's quite a conversation piece.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Growth for the sake of
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  growth is the ideology
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  of the cancer cell.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Edward Abbey

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#230872

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-05-01 21:52 +0000
Message-ID<vv0qfh$3i4p7$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230853
On Thu, 01 May 2025 18:19:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Dropbox will briefly display a page, then blank it out and display the
> message most hated by any competent developer: "Something went wrong."

Don’t worry. I’m sure there’s a full traceback in the server log, which 
the developer can access.

Doing things the other way, i.e. the PHP way -- have the full error report 
appear in the web page, for all the world to see -- is such a dumb idea.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#230888

FromPeter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
Date2025-05-02 03:44 +0000
Message-ID<vv1f2t$8441$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230872
On Thu, 1 May 2025 21:52:49 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Thu, 01 May 2025 18:19:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>> Dropbox will briefly display a page, then blank it out and display the
>> message most hated by any competent developer: "Something went wrong."
> 
> Don’t worry. I’m sure there’s a full traceback in the server log, which
> the developer can access.
> 
> Doing things the other way, i.e. the PHP way -- have the full error
> report appear in the web page, for all the world to see -- is such a
> dumb idea.

Somewhere in between is good. Provide enough information that an informed 
user can use to figure out where to begin looking.

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#230890

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-05-02 04:40 +0000
Message-ID<vv1ic5$bfqb$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230888
On Fri, 2 May 2025 03:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Peter Flass -- Iron Spring
Software wrote:

> On Thu, 1 May 2025 21:52:49 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 01 May 2025 18:19:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> 
>>> Dropbox will briefly display a page, then blank it out and display the
>>> message most hated by any competent developer: "Something went wrong."
>> 
>> Don’t worry. I’m sure there’s a full traceback in the server log, which
>> the developer can access.
>> 
>> Doing things the other way, i.e. the PHP way -- have the full error
>> report appear in the web page, for all the world to see -- is such a
>> dumb idea.
> 
> Somewhere in between is good. Provide enough information that an
> informed user can use to figure out where to begin looking.

It’s not the responsibility of the website user to do more than report 
there was a problem, maybe give some hints as to what they were doing and 
when.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#230897

FromPeter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
Date2025-05-02 15:15 +0000
Message-ID<vv2nie$1c8p8$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230890
On Fri, 2 May 2025 04:40:38 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Fri, 2 May 2025 03:44:30 -0000 (UTC), Peter Flass -- Iron Spring
> Software wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 1 May 2025 21:52:49 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 01 May 2025 18:19:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Dropbox will briefly display a page, then blank it out and display
>>>> the message most hated by any competent developer: "Something went
>>>> wrong."
>>> 
>>> Don’t worry. I’m sure there’s a full traceback in the server log,
>>> which the developer can access.
>>> 
>>> Doing things the other way, i.e. the PHP way -- have the full error
>>> report appear in the web page, for all the world to see -- is such a
>>> dumb idea.
>> 
>> Somewhere in between is good. Provide enough information that an
>> informed user can use to figure out where to begin looking.
> 
> It’s not the responsibility of the website user to do more than report
> there was a problem, maybe give some hints as to what they were doing
> and when.

Yes, but just saying "a problem has occurred" is not helpful. Usually it's 
something stupid I did, so I'd rather not try to guess from a completely 
blank slate.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#230919

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-05-03 00:12 +0000
Message-ID<vv3n0q$273hn$9@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230897
On Fri, 2 May 2025 15:15:27 -0000 (UTC), Peter Flass -- Iron Spring
Software wrote:

> On Fri, 2 May 2025 04:40:38 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> 
>> It’s not the responsibility of the website user to do more than report
>> there was a problem, maybe give some hints as to what they were doing
>> and when.
> 
> Yes, but just saying "a problem has occurred" is not helpful.

It’s mostly enough. When my clients report a problem with a website, I ask 
them what they were doing and when; any details about the exact 
(mis)behaviour is a bonus. Usually I can then look at the logs, and find a 
detailed error report from the right time (e.g. a Python traceback), which 
gives me enough clues to find and fix the problem.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#230910

FromMike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
Date2025-05-02 18:15 -0300
Message-ID<87msbuzpcq.fsf@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to#230872
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

> On Thu, 01 May 2025 18:19:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>> Dropbox will briefly display a page, then blank it out and display the
>> message most hated by any competent developer: "Something went wrong."
> 
> Don't worry. I'm sure there's a full traceback in the server log, which 
> the developer can access.
> 
> Doing things the other way, i.e. the PHP way -- have the full error
> report appear in the web page, for all the world to see -- is such a
> dumb idea.

Way back circa 1989, Nicholas Negroponte was glowingly envisioning the
future where we would all be sending "agents", chunks of clever
executable code, out onto the net to pursue our purposes and carry out
our designated tasks.  How wonderful!

The eventuality is that that corporate entities devise and commission
agents designed to run on our computers, agents that they contrive or
persuade us to allow in though the front gate, that pursue *their*
purposes and carry out *their* tasks.  And they try to  ensure that the
price of reading some text, acquiring some bit of information, is
free admission for their agents.

If we're going to allow their agents to run on our machines, the least
they can do is to arrange to explain to us, insofar as possible, how
and why they failed when they fail.

As an aside, I might observe that there are no circumstances under
which such corporate entities will allow *our* agents to run on *their*
hosts.  Should we try to arrange that, there are cries of "Virus!
Worms! Trojans!  Intrusion! Computer crime!" and they'll break the
glass on the alarm button.

Makes one reflect on the ending of Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#230915

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2025-05-02 22:29 +0000
Message-ID<lHbRP.19685$U3L2.14248@fx16.iad>
In reply to#230910
On 2025-05-02, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Way back circa 1989, Nicholas Negroponte was glowingly envisioning the
> future where we would all be sending "agents", chunks of clever
> executable code, out onto the net to pursue our purposes and carry out
> our designated tasks.  How wonderful!

I hadn't heard of that one.  But I've been pointing out to people
for some time that an "app" could just as well be called an "agent".

> Makes one reflect on the ending of Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_.

I guess I really have to read that one.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Growth for the sake of
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  growth is the ideology
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  of the cancer cell.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Edward Abbey

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#230923

FromPeter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
Date2025-05-03 01:15 +0000
Message-ID<vv3qmr$2b8ii$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230915
On Fri, 02 May 2025 22:29:37 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2025-05-02, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> 
>> Way back circa 1989, Nicholas Negroponte was glowingly envisioning the
>> future where we would all be sending "agents", chunks of clever
>> executable code, out onto the net to pursue our purposes and carry out
>> our designated tasks.  How wonderful!
> 
> I hadn't heard of that one.  But I've been pointing out to people for
> some time that an "app" could just as well be called an "agent".
> 
>> Makes one reflect on the ending of Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_.
> 
> I guess I really have to read that one.

Great story. Very prescient in a lot of ways. I read it twice; don't 
recall the details now, but it seems like some of Brunner's ideas are 
still evolving IRL.

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#230927

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-05-03 04:52 +0000
Message-ID<m7llpaFt7qdU4@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#230915
On Fri, 02 May 2025 22:29:37 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

>> Makes one reflect on the ending of Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_.
> 
> I guess I really have to read that one.

Embarrassing. Amazon informed me I bought it for the kindle July 21, 2019 
and it is marked as 'read'.  Maybe I better schedule a cognitive 
assessment Monday. I guess it didn't make much of an impression.

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#230934

FromMike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
Date2025-05-03 04:44 -0300
Message-ID<87a57uyw7p.fsf@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to#230915
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2025-05-02, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> 
>> Way back circa 1989, Nicholas Negroponte was glowingly envisioning the
>> future where we would all be sending "agents", chunks of clever
>> executable code, out onto the net to pursue our purposes and carry out
>> our designated tasks.  How wonderful!
> 
> I hadn't heard of that one.  But I've been pointing out to people
> for some time that an "app" could just as well be called an "agent".
> 
>> Makes one reflect on the ending of Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_.
> 
> I guess I really have to read that one.

Oh yes!  Great yarn and relevant to today's net environment.

You might even read Bruce Jackson's _The Programmer_, 1979, if you can
find it.  The days when interconnection between computers was a
novelty, poorly understood.  Except by the protagonist of the yarn.;-)

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#230920

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-05-03 00:17 +0000
Message-ID<vv3nb9$273hn$10@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230910
On 02 May 2025 18:15:17 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:

> Way back circa 1989, Nicholas Negroponte was glowingly envisioning the
> future where we would all be sending "agents", chunks of clever
> executable code, out onto the net to pursue our purposes and carry out
> our designated tasks.

I think Andy Hertzfeld, one of the geniuses behind the original Macintosh, 
became involved with a company called General Magic, which was trying to 
do exactly that in the 1990s. They had a language for creating agents, 
called “Telescript”, that could roam freely across Internet servers, 
performing actions like looking for good shopping deals or actually 
purchasing stuff, on the users’ behalf.

I think it was the obvious security implications that killed that idea -- 
and the company. Plus all the other ways such an autonomous agent could go 
wrong ...

> As an aside, I might observe that there are no circumstances under which
> such corporate entities will allow *our* agents to run on *their*
> hosts.  Should we try to arrange that, there are cries of "Virus! Worms!
> Trojans!  Intrusion! Computer crime!" and they'll break the glass on the
> alarm button.

Absolutely. The World-Wide Web was the “killer app” that popularized the 
Internet to the masses (that and the less-sexy email). But it has been a 
massive force for centralization of control, which is directly opposed to 
the decentralized foundation on which the Internet is built.

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#230835

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-05-01 07:27 +0000
Message-ID<vuv7p0$263p0$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230794
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 11:21:31 -0700, Al Kossow wrote:

> The joy of having the web browser code base controlled by a duopoly who
> only care about their smartphone products.

Nobody “controls” open-source code.

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#230802

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-04-30 19:32 +0000
Message-ID<m7fc6fFs4tbU10@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#230791
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 16:21:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Also, in the case of web browsers, HTML has become so immensely complex
> that many open-source projects (e.g. Seamonkey) can't keep up.  I
> suspect this isn't an accident - consider the number of web sites where
> if you're not using Edge, it's "Back of the bus, boy!"

I can't remember the site but it said I was using too old a browser when I 
used the latest Brave release. I then tried it with Firefox, again with 
the latest release. That failed too and I realized whatever the site was 
checking nothing originating from a Linux box was good enough. Same Brave 
version on Windows was fine.


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#230814

FromPeter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
Date2025-04-30 20:36 +0000
Message-ID<vuu1jm$118g0$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230802
On 30 Apr 2025 19:32:32 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 16:21:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>> Also, in the case of web browsers, HTML has become so immensely complex
>> that many open-source projects (e.g. Seamonkey) can't keep up.  I
>> suspect this isn't an accident - consider the number of web sites where
>> if you're not using Edge, it's "Back of the bus, boy!"
> 
> I can't remember the site but it said I was using too old a browser when
> I used the latest Brave release. I then tried it with Firefox, again
> with the latest release. That failed too and I realized whatever the
> site was checking nothing originating from a Linux box was good enough.
> Same Brave version on Windows was fine.

This is one reason I finally had to upgrade my old version of Ubuntu. I 
got tired of being nagged about the browsers. Unfortunately some of my 
other creaky old software no longer worked well, so it's taken me a while 
to get back to where I was. Having to figure out how to get Chrome to open 
local files took some time.

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#230812

FromPeter Flass -- Iron Spring Software <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
Date2025-04-30 20:33 +0000
Message-ID<vuu1ee$118g0$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230791
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 16:21:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2025-04-30, Peter Flass -- Iron Spring Software
> <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 23:20:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 23:09:00 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 2025-04-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Mandating the use of a product proprietary to one supplier is just
>>>>> asking for trouble.
>>>> 
>>>> On the other hand, today it's just standard marketing practice.
>>>> Replace "calculator" above with "web browser", for instance.
>>> 
>>> All the good web browsers are open source.
>>
>> Open Source sounds great, but for any project of any size (and some a
>> lot smaller) it's tricky to get the build environment correct.
> 
> Also, in the case of web browsers, HTML has become so immensely complex
> that many open-source projects (e.g. Seamonkey) can't keep up.  I
> suspect this isn't an accident - consider the number of web sites where
> if you're not using Edge, it's "Back of the bus, boy!"

I've never used Edge, but never had a problem. 

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#230817

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-04-30 23:41 +0000
Message-ID<vuucfg$1ajpm$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#230791
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 16:21:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> ... consider the number of web sites where if you're
> not using Edge, it's "Back of the bus, boy!"

Umm, zero?

Used to be, Internet Explorer was only used to donwload Firefox.

With Edge, it’s only used to download Chrome.

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#230833

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-05-01 06:55 +0000
Message-ID<m7gk6bF4kkmU3@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#230817
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 23:41:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 16:21:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>> ... consider the number of web sites where if you're not using Edge,
>> it's "Back of the bus, boy!"
> 
> Umm, zero?
> 
> Used to be, Internet Explorer was only used to donwload Firefox.
> 
> With Edge, it’s only used to download Chrome.

Or, in my case, Brave. Still, Edge 1.0 sucked but Edge 2.0 which is based 
on chromium is a reasonable browser. It must have rankled Microsoft that 
their attempt to turn the IE sow's ear into a silk purse failed.

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