Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #214232 > unrolled thread

What can be done with little?

Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers

Contents

  What can be done with little? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 22:10 +0100
    Re: What can be done with little? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-09-14 16:27 -0700
    Re: What can be done with little? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-15 01:30 +0100
      Re: What can be done with little? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2020-09-14 23:56 -0400
        Re: What can be done with little? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-15 05:17 +0000
          Re: What can be done with little? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 07:52 -0400
            Re: What can be done with little? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 13:46 +0100
              Re: What can be done with little? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-15 12:48 +0000
                Re: What can be done with little? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 06:16 -0700
                  Re: What can be done with little? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-15 13:38 +0000
                    Re: What can be done with little? drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-09-15 12:07 -0500
                      Re: What can be done with little? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-15 17:19 +0000
                Re: What can be done with little? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-09-15 12:28 -0700
                  Re: What can be done with little? drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-09-15 14:31 -0500
                    Re: What can be done with little? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-15 19:56 +0000
              Re: What can be done with little? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 06:16 -0700
                Re: What can be done with little? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-09-15 12:30 -0700
                  Re: What can be done with little? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 17:20 -0400
                    Re: What can be done with little? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-09-15 16:10 -0700
      Re: What can be done with little? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-09-15 13:47 +0200
      Re: What can be done with little? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 07:49 -0400
    Re: What can be done with little? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 09:22 +0100
      Re: What can be done with little? JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 10:01 -0500
    Re: What can be done with little? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-15 15:56 -0400
    Re: What can be done with little? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 20:31 +0000

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#214232 — What can be done with little?

The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#214236

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 3:20:24 PM UTC-6, gareth evans wrote:
> The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
> fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
> do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
> forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

Plenty of things can be done with much smaller computing systems. Thus, one can 
compile and run Fortran programs on a PDP-8.

It's just that on the one hand what many people want to do with computers is 
play Fortnite, and on the other hand when they want to do what an older computer 
could do, they're probably using a pocket calculator for it.

John Savard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214237

On 09/14/20 22:10, gareth evans wrote:
> The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
> fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
> do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
> forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?
>

Quite a lot. Software dev doesn't need a gui for the sort of work
done here, still makefiles and command line, though a gui does
make it seamless for any number of shell windows open at once.
File manager doesmn't need a gui, but the again, you might need
one or more open at once. You can use a text based browser, but
only get a fraction of the content and usability.

The issue here is really the difference between a purely text
interface and a graphical one. Graphical is so much more
capable at formatting data to suit the intended audience, it
communicates better...

Chris

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214238

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 01:30:32 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
wrote:

> Graphical . . .
> communicates better...

If and only if the designer of the interface has communication as a
goal.

-- 
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214241

On 2020-09-15, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 01:30:32 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Graphical . . .
>> communicates better...
>
> If and only if the designer of the interface has communication as a
> goal.

*applause*

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214253

On 15 Sep 2020 05:17:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

>On 2020-09-15, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 01:30:32 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Graphical . . .
>>> communicates better...
>>
>> If and only if the designer of the interface has communication as a
>> goal.
>
>*applause*

And it depends on what you're communicating.  A GUI is not really all
that much help if what you're trying to communicate is "WAKE UP YOU
LAZY <BEEP>".  Not the most dependable system for "FIRE FIRE FIRE"
either--you want something that will get your attention even if you're
not looking at it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214256

On 15/09/2020 12:52, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 15 Sep 2020 05:17:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2020-09-15, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 01:30:32 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graphical . . .
>>>> communicates better...
>>>
>>> If and only if the designer of the interface has communication as a
>>> goal.
>>
>> *applause*
>
> And it depends on what you're communicating.  A GUI is not really all
> that much help if what you're trying to communicate is "WAKE UP YOU
> LAZY <BEEP>".  Not the most dependable system for "FIRE FIRE FIRE"
> either--you want something that will get your attention even if you're
> not looking at it.
>

I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214257

On 2020-09-15, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?

The NSA wrote SELinux (a kernel-level system for enforcing detailed
policy on who and what can do what), so I'd guess they use a lot of
Linux, probably a pretty stripped-down distro.

Niklas
-- 
If you demonstrate that you can cook superior food using an induction
stove, is that an instance of proof by induction?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214259

Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2020-09-15, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?
> 
> The NSA wrote SELinux (a kernel-level system for enforcing detailed
> policy on who and what can do what), so I'd guess they use a lot of
> Linux, probably a pretty stripped-down distro.
> 

Aren’t many other distros now based on SELinux?



-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214261

On 2020-09-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>> On 2020-09-15, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?
>> 
>> The NSA wrote SELinux (a kernel-level system for enforcing detailed
>> policy on who and what can do what), so I'd guess they use a lot of
>> Linux, probably a pretty stripped-down distro.
>> 
>
> Aren’t many other distros now based on SELinux?

SELinux isn't a distro, just a kernel subsystem. But yes - the Red Hat
family (RHEL itself, CentOS, presumably Scientific Linux, Fedora)
certainly supports SELinux, as probably do many others.

Ubuntu seems to use one of the alternatives, AppArmor. I was involved in
a Red Hat-based project recently where we were using SELinux but found
it extremely cumbersome, so we investigated AppArmor as an alternative.
Unfortunately, the stock RH kernels don't have AppArmor support compiled
in, and building our own would have voided access to Red Hat's support.

Niklas
-- 
You've been autopsied twice?!?  And you're still posting?
                          -- Steve VanDevender

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214268

 > Ubuntu seems to use one of the alternatives, AppArmor.

AppArmor and SELinux aren't exactly either-or.  Debian ships both.

De

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214269

On 2020-09-15, Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
> > Ubuntu seems to use one of the alternatives, AppArmor.
>
> AppArmor and SELinux aren't exactly either-or.  Debian ships both.

I sit corrected. That's good to hear.

Niklas
-- 
Actually I think that "fucking off" is an idempotent operation.
                       -- Alan J Rosenthal

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214276

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 6:48:40 AM UTC-6, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> On 2020-09-15, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?

> The NSA wrote SELinux (a kernel-level system for enforcing detailed
> policy on who and what can do what), so I'd guess they use a lot of
> Linux, probably a pretty stripped-down distro.

And _given_ the big security enhancement of SELinux, one can guess that at one 
time they had been using Multics in order to get such ideas...

John Savard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214279

 > And _given_ the big security enhancement of SELinux, one can guess that
 > at one time they had been using Multics in order to get such ideas...

Well, they did.  Dockmaster comes to mind.  But that's certainly not
the only way they could have come by such ideas, even assuming they
were unable to do basic security research for all these decades.

De

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214282

drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
> > And _given_ the big security enhancement of SELinux, one can guess that
> > at one time they had been using Multics in order to get such ideas...
>
>Well, they did.  Dockmaster comes to mind.  But that's certainly not
>the only way they could have come by such ideas, even assuming they
>were unable to do basic security research for all these decades.
>

Indeed, the orange book was published in 1983 (although we had
preprint copies a couple of years earlier).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computer_System_Evaluation_Criteria

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214258

gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 15/09/2020 12:52, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 15 Sep 2020 05:17:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2020-09-15, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 01:30:32 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Graphical . . .
>>>>> communicates better...
>>>> 
>>>> If and only if the designer of the interface has communication as a
>>>> goal.
>>> 
>>> *applause*
>> 
>> And it depends on what you're communicating.  A GUI is not really all
>> that much help if what you're trying to communicate is "WAKE UP YOU
>> LAZY <BEEP>".  Not the most dependable system for "FIRE FIRE FIRE"
>> either--you want something that will get your attention even if you're
>> not looking at it.
>> 
> 
> I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?
> 
> 

Probably something they bought from a small startup in Saint Petersburg.
;-)

-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214278

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:16:14 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?

> Probably something they bought from a small startup in Saint Petersburg.
> ;-)

Oh, wait. There _is_ another St. Petersburg besides the one that used to be called Leningrad.

I don't know about the NSA, but *NASA* used to use a lot of computers from the 
only computer company based in Florida that I can think of offhand, SEL. Systems 
Engineering Laboratories, nothing to do with SELinux.

John Savard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214290

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 12:30:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:16:14 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > I wonder what OSs the NSA (Yanks) and GCHQ  (Brits) use ?
>
>> Probably something they bought from a small startup in Saint Petersburg.
>> ;-)
>
>Oh, wait. There _is_ another St. Petersburg besides the one that used to be called Leningrad.
>
>I don't know about the NSA, but *NASA* used to use a lot of computers from the 
>only computer company based in Florida that I can think of offhand, SEL. Systems 
>Engineering Laboratories, nothing to do with SELinux.

Well, there was that little outfit in Boca Raton, but they were a
division of a bigger company . . .

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214296

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 3:20:33 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> Well, there was that little outfit in Boca Raton, but they were a 
> division of a bigger company . . .

Ah, yes. I associate that company with Poughkeepsie in the state of New York. NASA certainly did use a lot of their computers.

John Savard

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214251

On 15/09/2020 02.30, Chris wrote:
> On 09/14/20 22:10, gareth evans wrote:
>> The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
>> fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
>> do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
>> forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?
>>
> 
> Quite a lot. Software dev doesn't need a gui for the sort of work
> done here, still makefiles and command line, though a gui does
> make it seamless for any number of shell windows open at once.
> File manager doesmn't need a gui, but the again, you might need
> one or more open at once. You can use a text based browser, but
> only get a fraction of the content and usability.

Huh. I find that Midnight Commander (aka 'mc') as text based file 
browser is more powerful than any GUI based browser I have tested, 
except on one respect: showing graphical content of the files, like 
photos or videos.

I would gladly use a GUI tool for doing the same, but there ain't any, 
there are always missing features.

Of course, I talk of using 'mc' inside a GUI session in an emulated 
terminal, so that I can have dozens in sight, not in a pure text terminal.

> The issue here is really the difference between a purely text
> interface and a graphical one. Graphical is so much more
> capable at formatting data to suit the intended audience, it
> communicates better...

Usually, yes. :-)

On the other hand, they often run slower than equivalent text tools, 
because a large part of the computing time is used on drawing those nice 
graphics :-p

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | alt.folklore.computers

csiph-web