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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #214221 > unrolled thread

LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all?

Started bygareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
First post2020-09-14 10:57 +0100
Last post2020-11-18 10:18 -0800
Articles 20 on this page of 107 — 27 participants

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Contents

  LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 10:57 +0100
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-14 12:10 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 14:09 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 14:23 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-14 16:36 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 18:44 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-09-15 14:14 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? "Massimo M." <massimo79m@gmail.com> - 2020-09-20 14:50 -0700
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-20 18:44 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 00:07 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-21 07:08 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? "Massimo M." <massimo79m@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 02:59 -0700
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 00:06 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-21 08:36 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 13:15 +0100
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2020-09-21 12:30 +0000
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-26 16:25 +0100
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-26 18:01 +0000
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2020-09-26 18:12 +0000
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-26 22:14 -0300
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-26 14:27 -0400
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-26 20:20 +0100
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-27 10:38 -0700
                        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 15:54 -0400
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-27 08:14 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-09-14 14:25 -0500
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-26 12:05 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-09-15 18:52 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-15 20:31 +0100
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-14 14:04 -0400
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 19:23 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-14 19:57 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 22:07 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-15 10:47 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 12:28 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-14 22:16 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 22:57 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-15 05:59 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 20:31 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-14 22:28 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-15 15:47 -0400
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 18:49 -0700
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 04:30 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 09:26 +0100
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 09:28 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-15 10:55 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 12:34 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2020-09-15 09:03 -0500
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 06:16 -0700
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-15 15:52 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-15 15:53 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 17:34 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-15 17:54 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 20:25 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 20:31 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-15 22:13 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-16 10:10 +0100
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-15 08:41 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 12:28 +0100
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 08:15 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 08:29 -0400
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 09:46 -0400
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 17:16 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 18:02 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 18:47 -0400
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Timothy McCaffrey <timcaffrey420@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 12:56 -0700
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? f6k <f6k@huld.re> - 2020-09-21 22:45 +0200
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-21 21:05 +0000
                        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? f6k <f6k@huld.re> - 2020-09-22 10:24 +0200
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Timothy McCaffrey <timcaffrey420@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 17:19 -0700
                        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? f6k <f6k@huld.re> - 2020-09-22 10:23 +0200
                          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Timothy McCaffrey <timcaffrey420@gmail.com> - 2020-09-22 15:02 -0700
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-09-22 12:51 +0000
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-22 15:21 -0400
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 20:32 +0000
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-15 23:22 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 21:14 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-16 08:04 +0100
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-16 17:42 +0000
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-16 20:25 +0000
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 18:28 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-18 20:40 +0000
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-09-15 13:52 -0400
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 18:49 -0700
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-09-16 06:00 -0400
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-26 14:24 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-26 11:07 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-26 17:49 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2020-09-26 17:47 +0000
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-27 10:38 -0700
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-27 08:07 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-27 07:47 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 07:50 -0400
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 10:05 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 12:32 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 13:05 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-27 10:38 -0700
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 15:56 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-28 08:53 +0000
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> - 2020-09-29 08:21 +0200
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-29 08:13 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-27 22:29 +0000
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-28 08:56 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-28 16:35 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-10-07 18:14 +0000
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Kelli Halliburton <kelli217@gmail.com> - 2020-10-09 14:07 -0700
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Stewart Russell <scruss@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 10:18 -0800

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#214280

FromAndreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net>
Date2020-09-15 15:47 -0400
Message-ID<87wo0ug6u0.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>
In reply to#214235
On 14 Sep 2020 22:28:23 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:04:07 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>
>>> Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
>>> complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
>>> the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
>>> and background processes that I did not launch.
>>>
>>> So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
>>> and bugger-all else?
>> 
>> My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
>> But the internet option might be a problem.
>
> Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had 
> a GUI.

A GUI, however small in memory, might be too much for a PDP11 anyway. No
matter what OS it's running.

I mentioned CP/M because it should be appropriate for older machines.
-- 
Andreas

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#214301

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 18:49 -0700
Message-ID<1664197564.621912948.339096.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#214280
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 14 Sep 2020 22:28:23 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:04:07 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
>>>> complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
>>>> the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
>>>> and background processes that I did not launch.
>>>> 
>>>> So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
>>>> and bugger-all else?
>>> 
>>> My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
>>> But the internet option might be a problem.
>> 
>> Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had 
>> a GUI.
> 
> A GUI, however small in memory, might be too much for a PDP11 anyway. No
> matter what OS it's running.

The Alto had a minimum of 128K bytes (64K words, I think) and should have
been about the same class of machine as an -11.

-- 
Pete

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#214239

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2020-09-15 04:30 +0000
Message-ID<5f604337.5201168@news.dslextreme.com>
In reply to#214221
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
>was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
>that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
>have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
>launch.
>
>So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
>and bugger-all else?

More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble on and
on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad.  Did you also have to walk
ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind both ways, to get to
school?

What's wrong with all those background processes?  Gotta keep all those cores
doing sumthin'.

Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the day," why
aren't you doing it now with current hardware?  The components are readily
available at just about any level you care to chose.  Assemble a machine and
write the Next Great Operating System.

As for the rest of us...

I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.

I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.

I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.

And, like most people...

I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

Getting off your lawn now...

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#214243

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 09:26 +0100
Message-ID<rjptr6$6bl$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214239
On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
> More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble on and
> on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad.  Did you also have to walk
> ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind both ways, to get to
> school?

Grandad?

Grow up, Sonny!

Did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?

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#214244

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 09:28 +0100
Message-ID<rjptv0$6bl$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214239
On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
> build my own car.
> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
> most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

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#214247

FromNiklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se>
Date2020-09-15 10:55 +0000
Message-ID<hsbktdFhnf7U2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#214244
On 2020-09-15, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>> build my own car.
>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>> most applications.
>
> A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I think it's safe to say Questor is anything but non-technical.

My sentiment is not dissimilar to his. I'm a young'un in this froup, but
I've still worked in computing for 20 years by now. At the early stages,
I loved to tinker with all the details. I never wrote an OS from the
ground up or anything like that, but still much more low-level tinkering
than a great deal of people would ever want to do.

It gave me a good background in how things work deep down, which is
useful, but these days I really can't be bothered to grovel in low-level
details all the time. Plus if I insisted on doing that every time I had
to solve a problem, I'd likely be out of a job. These days I usually
want things to Just Work, so I can focus on what currently doesn't.

Niklas
-- 
The [Boston Computer Museum] used to be in the same building at the
Boston Children's Museum.  I never went in there, as I figured the
displays of children from various times might be kind of gruesome.
                          -- Howard S. Shubs

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#214250

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 12:34 +0100
Message-ID<rjq8s3$93q$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214247
On 15/09/2020 11:55, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> On 2020-09-15, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>>> build my own car.
>>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>>> most applications.
>>
>> A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
>
> I think it's safe to say Questor is anything but non-technical.
>
> My sentiment is not dissimilar to his. I'm a young'un in this froup, but
> I've still worked in computing for 20 years by now. At the early stages,
> I loved to tinker with all the details. I never wrote an OS from the
> ground up or anything like that, but still much more low-level tinkering
> than a great deal of people would ever want to do.
>
> It gave me a good background in how things work deep down, which is
> useful, but these days I really can't be bothered to grovel in low-level
> details all the time. Plus if I insisted on doing that every time I had
> to solve a problem, I'd likely be out of a job. These days I usually
> want things to Just Work, so I can focus on what currently doesn't.

My background, and the folklore associated with it, is in low-level
intimate contact with computers. Computers are there to be appreciated
for their beauty as complex machines, and not necessarily there to be
used for any practical purpose  :-)

But, in response to Questor and other contributors of a similar bent,
if you dislike my contributions to this NG, then investigate the
concept of Kill Files, and you won't have to suffer any further.

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#214263

FromAndy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com>
Date2020-09-15 09:03 -0500
Message-ID<slrnrm1icm.n86.andyl@azaal.plus.com>
In reply to#214250
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 12:34:17 +0100, 
               gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> My background, and the folklore associated with it, is in low-level
> intimate contact with computers. 

Intimate contact? Is that like the Suffolk man who was arrested for
public indecency and admitted having sex with 450 tractors?

-- 
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
   - Douglas Adams

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#214260

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 06:16 -0700
Message-ID<1594290091.621867900.829062.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#214244
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>> build my own car.
>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>> most applications.
> 
> A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
> 

I have to agree with him. Lots of things were fun in olden days because 1)
That was all,the hardware and software we had to work with. 2) It was
exciting doing something for the first time, and challenging to get it to
fit. Sometimes I think back to the 1130 I loved of the Altair I wanted to
own; I could now run emulators for them, but what’s the point? Most of what
you could do with them has been done and we’ve moved on. The fun now is
writing the emulator.

I still enjoy developing software, but I don’t want to have to worry about
the platform I’m developing on. If I have to spend time installing and
customizing software or whatever it’s not productive in terms if what I
want to get done.

-- 
Pete

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#214281

FromAndreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net>
Date2020-09-15 15:52 -0400
Message-ID<87tuvyg6ly.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>
In reply to#214260
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 06:16:13 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> I have to agree with him. Lots of things were fun in olden days because 1)
> That was all,the hardware and software we had to work with. 2) It was
> exciting doing something for the first time, and challenging to get it to
> fit.

:-)

> Sometimes I think back to the 1130 I loved of the Altair I wanted to
> own; I could now run emulators for them, but what’s the point? Most of
> what you could do with them has been done and we’ve moved on. The fun
> now is writing the emulator.

Not owning any vintage hardware an emulator helps me to explore things I
missed in the past.
-- 
Andreas

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#214266

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2020-09-15 15:53 +0000
Message-ID<is58H.153656$mK4.104378@fx03.iad>
In reply to#214244
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>> build my own car.
>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>> most applications.
>
>A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
>

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

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#214267

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 17:34 +0100
Message-ID<rjqqe9$l1g$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214266
On 15/09/2020 16:53, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>>> build my own car.
>>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>>> most applications.
>>
>> A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
>>
>
> Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

I merely responded in kind.

However, yes, life's too short!

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#214271

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2020-09-15 17:54 +0000
Message-ID<Rd78H.464527$eN2.211273@fx47.iad>
In reply to#214267
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>On 15/09/2020 16:53, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>>>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>>>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>>>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>>>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>>>> build my own car.
>>>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>>>> most applications.
>>>
>>> A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
>>>
>>
>> Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.
>
>You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

What insults?

The previous poster has a long history of productive and informative
posts.

>
>I merely responded in kind.

You have a long history of provocative and often unpleasant posts.

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#214275

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 20:25 +0100
Message-ID<rjr4ft$qpu$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214271
On 15/09/2020 18:54, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On 15/09/2020 16:53, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>>>>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>>>>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>>>>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>>>>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>>>>> build my own car.
>>>>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>>>>> most applications.
>>>>
>>>> A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.
>>
>> You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?
>
> What insults?

Read his post. YMMV.

> The previous poster has a long history of productive and informative
> posts.

Irrelevant.

>
>>
>> I merely responded in kind.
>
> You have a long history of provocative and often unpleasant posts.

Untrue. What was that you said that insults aren't helpful?

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#214287

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2020-09-15 20:31 +0000
Message-ID<5f612497.9651488@news.dslextreme.com>
In reply to#214244
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 09:28:15 +0100, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>> build my own car.
>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>> most applications.
>
>A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I have no need to re-create the wheel.

You've got a pretty thin skin to be hanging out in this newsgroup, Buck-o.

You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second post.  At
this point it's just bragging.

Yeah, we get it.  You're a dinosaur, just like the rest of us.  Get on with it,
or at least come up with a new, more interesting whine.

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#214292

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2020-09-15 22:13 +0100
Message-ID<20200915221353.58cc891b513f5a20df7cb397@eircom.net>
In reply to#214287
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:31:50 GMT
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 09:28:15 +0100, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
> wrote:

> >A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
> 
> You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second
> post.  At this point it's just bragging.

	Some good war stories from it would go down well though.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#214304

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-16 10:10 +0100
Message-ID<rjskqp$kmr$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214287
On 15/09/2020 21:31, Questor wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 09:28:15 +0100, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 15/09/2020 05:30, Questor wrote:
>>> I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
>>> vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
>>> I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
>>> I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
>>> build my own car.
>>> I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
>>> most applications.
>>
>> A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?
>
> I have no need to re-create the wheel.
>
> You've got a pretty thin skin to be hanging out in this newsgroup, Buck-o.
>
> You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second post.  At
> this point it's just bragging.
>
> Yeah, we get it.  You're a dinosaur, just like the rest of us.  Get on with it,
> or at least come up with a new, more interesting whine.
>

You seem to be spoiling for a fight, but I am not.

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#214245

FromBob Eager <news0073@eager.cx>
Date2020-09-15 08:41 +0000
Message-ID<hsbd1lFg9laU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#214239
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 04:30:17 +0000, Questor wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans
> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
>>complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only the
>>programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons and
>>background processes that I did not launch.
>>
>>So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
>>and bugger-all else?
> 
> More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble
> on and on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad.  Did you also
> have to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind
> both ways,
> to get to school?
> 
> What's wrong with all those background processes?  Gotta keep all those
> cores doing sumthin'.
> 
> Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the
> day,"
> why aren't you doing it now with current hardware?  The components are
> readily available at just about any level you care to chose.  Assemble a
> machine and write the Next Great Operating System.

Hear hear. And I am far from non-technical.


-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#214248

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-15 12:28 +0100
Message-ID<rjq8gb$6i0$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214245
On 15/09/2020 09:41, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 04:30:17 +0000, Questor wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans
>> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
>>> complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only the
>>> programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons and
>>> background processes that I did not launch.
>>>
>>> So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
>>> and bugger-all else?
>>
>> More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble
>> on and on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad.  Did you also
>> have to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind
>> both ways,
>> to get to school?
>>
>> What's wrong with all those background processes?  Gotta keep all those
>> cores doing sumthin'.
>>
>> Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the
>> day,"
>> why aren't you doing it now with current hardware?  The components are
>> readily available at just about any level you care to chose.  Assemble a
>> machine and write the Next Great Operating System.
>
> Hear hear. And I am far from non-technical.
>
>

This is a NG about folklore, and that is what I discuss; history.

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#214254

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-09-15 08:15 -0400
Message-ID<rjqb89$n8k$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214239
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:

> What's wrong with all those background processes?  Gotta keep all
> those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.

All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.

I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use.  Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.

Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time.  Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.

So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging.  The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper).  Saved me a lot of time.

I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process.  Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

-- 
Dan Espen

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