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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #213787 > unrolled thread

Where did Microsoft go wrong?

Started bygareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
First post2020-09-05 20:57 +0100
Last post2021-07-02 09:29 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 141 — 29 participants

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Contents

  Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 20:57 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-05 20:40 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-05 22:44 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-08 21:10 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-05 22:50 +0000
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 19:35 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-06 07:12 +0100
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-02 09:36 -0700
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 19:05 +0100
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-02 21:44 +0100
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 22:16 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-03 00:57 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-02 23:05 -0500
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Fred Weigel <fridtjof.martin.weigel@gmail.com> - 2021-07-02 16:03 -0700
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-03 17:35 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-04 08:35 +0100
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 11:28 -0700
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-02 23:28 +0000
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 10:21 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-03 22:16 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-03 21:07 -0400
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-03 18:40 -0700
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-06 04:36 -0700
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-07-06 17:42 +0100
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-06 16:52 +0000
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-06 04:34 -0700
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-05 17:59 -0700
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-05 22:07 -0400
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 06:30 -0700
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-06 10:02 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> - 2020-09-06 17:47 +0300
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-06 08:12 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Johnatan Duck <pato@thunder.local> - 2020-09-11 08:22 +0000
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:23 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:19 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 22:51 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-05 17:01 -0600
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 08:23 +0000
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-06 20:03 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-06 17:26 -0600
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 16:20 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-06 11:14 -0700
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-07 05:27 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-07 08:32 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 11:01 +0100
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 10:28 -0700
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 13:50 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-06 22:48 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-07 10:58 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-07 17:47 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-07 18:02 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-07 20:57 +0000
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 13:44 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 00:05 +0100
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 19:40 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 01:33 +0100
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 22:39 -0400
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-08 11:01 +0000
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 14:42 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 10:28 -0400
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 16:48 +0100
                      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 12:12 -0400
                        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:33 +0100
                          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 13:47 -0400
                            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 19:49 +0100
                              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:35 -0400
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-08 20:01 -0300
                      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 20:16 -0400
                        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-09 03:50 -0300
                          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-09 17:20 +0000
                            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-10 03:29 -0300
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-08 09:20 -0600
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-08 15:39 +0000
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-09-08 12:01 -0600
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2020-09-09 17:59 +0300
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 11:54 -0400
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:18 +0100
                    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 19:44 +0100
            Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-09-08 01:27 +0000
              Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-07 22:54 -0400
                Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
                  Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-08 16:01 +0000
                    Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 09:33 -0700
              Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 08:44 -0700
                Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:00 +0100
                  Re: ZFS, Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-08 09:33 -0700
                    Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 13:41 -0400
                      Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 19:37 +0100
                        Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:31 -0400
                          Re: ZFS, -> The Great Rootshow Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 22:54 +0100
                            Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 18:09 -0400
                              Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 23:18 +0100
                                Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 20:10 -0400
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-09 09:41 +0000
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 08:34 -0400
                                      Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-09 12:43 +0000
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-09 13:29 +0100
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 08:44 -0400
                                Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-09 18:31 +0000
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 15:49 -0400
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-09 20:41 +0000
                                      Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-09 17:32 -0400
                                        Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-10 05:17 +0000
                                          Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-10 12:15 +0100
                                          Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-10 11:51 +0000
                                            Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 14:40 +0100
                                              Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-10 17:39 +0100
                                                Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 18:03 +0100
                                      Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-10 15:45 +0000
                                        Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-10 12:02 -0400
                                          Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-10 17:35 +0100
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-09 21:05 +0100
                                  Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-09 16:55 -0700
                                    Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-10 15:48 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-08 15:38 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-08 02:29 +0000
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 17:53 +0100
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 17:43 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-08 23:00 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-02 07:10 -0700
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-02 16:32 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-03 04:10 -0700
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 01:01 -0700
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2021-07-08 11:36 +0100
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-07-08 16:01 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-08 15:01 -0700
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-08 22:45 +0000
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 19:30 -0400
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-08 21:02 -0500
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-08 12:09 +0000
          Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 13:44 +0100
            Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2021-07-08 12:49 +0000
              Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 13:53 +0100
                Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-08 14:17 +0100
                  Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-08 22:00 +0100
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-08 13:56 +0000
      Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Daniel Jendinger <hexabit@daniels-mac-mini2.local> - 2021-09-06 18:56 +0000
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-06 17:27 -0400
        Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-06 22:30 +0100
    Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-02 09:29 -0700

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#214029 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-09-09 15:49 -0400
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjbbk3$h0b$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214024
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes:
>>On 09/08/20 23:09, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>>>
>>> In short what the systemd developers did was look at
>>> everything all those custom designed scripts and soft links were doing
>>> and abstracted it all into the .service files.  You can tell it's a
>>> clean design because each service has only 1 file with just a few
>>> entries being needed for each service.
>>>
>>
>>That's a different issue to the priority problem, which I understood
>>was one of the things that it was designed to address. Maybe not...
>
> The priority system was simple and effective using the standard
> System V intialization scripts.   They were executed in collating
> order in the default C locale.
>
> So S01xxxx would be started before S93yyyy.
>
> the 'chkconfig' command would enable/disable services at the target runlevel.
> (e.g. chkconfig network on)
>
> The 'service' command would start/stop/restart services
> (e.g. service network start).
>
> Simple.  Easy.  Maintainable.  Flexible.  Independent.
>
> chkconfig --list
>
> shows all the services and the run-level they're enabled for.
>
> chkconfig --list | grep ":on"
>
> shows all enabled services
>
>
> For systemd, you need
>   'systemctl list-unit-files'
> which is completely unintuitive, and on my system has
> 384 unit files (which far more than the 20 or 30 services
> managed on a typical system v init system); most of them
> useless for everyday system management.

Wow, imagine 384 services numbered S00 to S99.

I've got 458.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#214037 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromNiklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se>
Date2020-09-09 20:41 +0000
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<hrssuvFdk69U2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#214029
On 2020-09-09, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>
>> For systemd, you need
>>   'systemctl list-unit-files'
>> which is completely unintuitive, and on my system has
>> 384 unit files (which far more than the 20 or 30 services
>> managed on a typical system v init system); most of them
>> useless for everyday system management.
>
> Wow, imagine 384 services numbered S00 to S99.
>
> I've got 458.

Fine, so use three digits.

Niklas
-- 
When you need a helpline for breakfast cereals, it's time to start
thinking about tearing down civilisation and giving the ants a go.
                         -- Chris King in asr

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#214039 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-09-09 17:32 -0400
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjbhkm$oan$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214037
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:

> On 2020-09-09, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>
>>> For systemd, you need
>>>   'systemctl list-unit-files'
>>> which is completely unintuitive, and on my system has
>>> 384 unit files (which far more than the 20 or 30 services
>>> managed on a typical system v init system); most of them
>>> useless for everyday system management.
>>
>> Wow, imagine 384 services numbered S00 to S99.
>>
>> I've got 458.
>
> Fine, so use three digits.

Have you ever tried to spread out 400 items using 3 digits
keeping enough gaps to be able to insert new items anywhere in
the sequence?

I think 4 digits is called for and some kind of automated
renumbering tool.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#214047 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromThomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
Date2020-09-10 05:17 +0000
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjccsk$hj1$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>
In reply to#214039
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> schrieb:

> I think 4 digits is called for and some kind of automated
> renumbering tool.

Almost unrelated, but that reminds me - of the numerous tools that
floated around for the numerous rather crippeled BASIC dialects
that the home micros had, RENUMBER was rather popular.

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#214050 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-10 12:15 +0100
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjd1sl$1qn$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214047
On 10/09/2020 06:17, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> schrieb:
>
>> I think 4 digits is called for and some kind of automated
>> renumbering tool.
>
> Almost unrelated, but that reminds me - of the numerous tools that
> floated around for the numerous rather crippeled BASIC dialects
> that the home micros had, RENUMBER was rather popular.
>

RENUMBER had always been around in BASIC, certainly on the
PDPs 10 & 11.

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#214052 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromBob Eager <news0073@eager.cx>
Date2020-09-10 11:51 +0000
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<hrui96Fn25sU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#214047
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:17:08 +0000, Thomas Koenig wrote:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> schrieb:
> 
>> I think 4 digits is called for and some kind of automated renumbering
>> tool.
> 
> Almost unrelated, but that reminds me - of the numerous tools that
> floated around for the numerous rather crippeled BASIC dialects that the
> home micros had, RENUMBER was rather popular.

I remember writing a renumbering program back in 1971. For obscure 
reasons (but good ones) I wrote it in assembler.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#214061 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromChris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
Date2020-09-10 14:40 +0100
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjdac2$17oa$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#214052
On 09/10/20 12:51, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:17:08 +0000, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>
>> Dan Espen<dan1espen@gmail.com>  schrieb:
>>
>>> I think 4 digits is called for and some kind of automated renumbering
>>> tool.
>>
>> Almost unrelated, but that reminds me - of the numerous tools that
>> floated around for the numerous rather crippeled BASIC dialects that the
>> home micros had, RENUMBER was rather popular.
>
> I remember writing a renumbering program back in 1971. For obscure
> reasons (but good ones) I wrote it in assembler.

Years ago, late 70's, I wrote everything in asm, as even then the
compliers were expensive and often not very good...

Regards,

Chris

>

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#214084 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

Fromgareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-10 17:39 +0100
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjdkst$3ur$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214061
On 10/09/2020 14:40, Chris wrote:
> On 09/10/20 12:51, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:17:08 +0000, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>>> Dan Espen<dan1espen@gmail.com>  schrieb:
>>>
>>>> I think 4 digits is called for and some kind of automated renumbering
>>>> tool.
>>>
>>> Almost unrelated, but that reminds me - of the numerous tools that
>>> floated around for the numerous rather crippeled BASIC dialects that the
>>> home micros had, RENUMBER was rather popular.
>>
>> I remember writing a renumbering program back in 1971. For obscure
>> reasons (but good ones) I wrote it in assembler.
>
> Years ago, late 70's, I wrote everything in asm, as even then the
> compliers were expensive and often not very good...

Yes. Largely ASM on the PDP11 from 1971 till 1981, with a
short excursion into the ICI language RTL/2

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#214091 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromChris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
Date2020-09-10 18:03 +0100
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjdm8j$131b$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#214084
On 09/10/20 17:39, gareth evans wrote:
> On 10/09/2020 14:40, Chris wrote:
>> On 09/10/20 12:51, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:17:08 +0000, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dan Espen<dan1espen@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> I think 4 digits is called for and some kind of automated renumbering
>>>>> tool.
>>>>
>>>> Almost unrelated, but that reminds me - of the numerous tools that
>>>> floated around for the numerous rather crippeled BASIC dialects that
>>>> the
>>>> home micros had, RENUMBER was rather popular.
>>>
>>> I remember writing a renumbering program back in 1971. For obscure
>>> reasons (but good ones) I wrote it in assembler.
>>
>> Years ago, late 70's, I wrote everything in asm, as even then the
>> compliers were expensive and often not very good...
>
> Yes. Largely ASM on the PDP11 from 1971 till 1981, with a
> short excursion into the ICI language RTL/2
>

Originally from a electronics background and exposed to micros
in the mid 70's, but it was another few years before I got my
first machine. Felt like the start of a revolution, once I
realised what they were capable of,,,

Chris

>
>

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#214069 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2020-09-10 15:45 +0000
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<TSr6H.457668$eN2.254741@fx47.iad>
In reply to#214037
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>On 2020-09-09, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>
>>> For systemd, you need
>>>   'systemctl list-unit-files'
>>> which is completely unintuitive, and on my system has
>>> 384 unit files (which far more than the 20 or 30 services
>>> managed on a typical system v init system); most of them
>>> useless for everyday system management.
>>
>> Wow, imagine 384 services numbered S00 to S99.
>>
>> I've got 458.
>
>Fine, so use three digits.

Who needs 458 services?

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#214074 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromDan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
Date2020-09-10 12:02 -0400
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjdilq$dtq$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#214069
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>On 2020-09-09, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>>
>>>> For systemd, you need
>>>>   'systemctl list-unit-files'
>>>> which is completely unintuitive, and on my system has
>>>> 384 unit files (which far more than the 20 or 30 services
>>>> managed on a typical system v init system); most of them
>>>> useless for everyday system management.
>>>
>>> Wow, imagine 384 services numbered S00 to S99.
>>>
>>> I've got 458.
>>
>>Fine, so use three digits.
>
> Who needs 458 services?

Clearly no one.
But apparently I have 458 to choose from.

Here are all the ones starting with the letter "a":

me> systemctl list-unit-files 'a*'
UNIT FILE                  STATE    VENDOR PRESET
abrt-journal-core.service  enabled  enabled      
abrt-oops.service          enabled  enabled      
abrt-pstoreoops.service    disabled disabled     
abrt-vmcore.service        enabled  enabled      
abrt-xorg.service          enabled  enabled      
abrtd.service              enabled  enabled      
accounts-daemon.service    enabled  enabled      
acpid.service              disabled disabled     
akmods-shutdown.service    disabled disabled     
akmods.service             enabled  enabled      
akmods@.service            disabled disabled     
alsa-restore.service       static   disabled     
alsa-state.service         static   disabled     
anaconda-direct.service    static   disabled     
anaconda-nm-config.service static   disabled     
anaconda-noshell.service   static   disabled     
anaconda-pre.service       static   disabled     
anaconda-shell@.service    static   disabled     
anaconda-sshd.service      static   disabled     
anaconda-tmux@.service     static   disabled     
anaconda.service           static   disabled     
arp-ethers.service         disabled disabled     
atd.service                enabled  enabled      
auditd.service             enabled  enabled      
auth-rpcgss-module.service static   disabled     
autofs.service             disabled disabled     
autovt@.service            enabled  disabled     
avahi-daemon.service       enabled  enabled      
acpid.socket               enabled  disabled     
avahi-daemon.socket        enabled  enabled      
anaconda.target            static   disabled     

31 unit files listed.


maybe you can identify the ones that no one should ever need.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#214082 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromChris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
Date2020-09-10 17:35 +0100
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<rjdkl4$bj7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#214074
On 09/10/20 17:02, Dan Espen wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> Niklas Karlsson<anksil@yahoo.se>  writes:
>>> On 2020-09-09, Dan Espen<dan1espen@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> For systemd, you need
>>>>>    'systemctl list-unit-files'
>>>>> which is completely unintuitive, and on my system has
>>>>> 384 unit files (which far more than the 20 or 30 services
>>>>> managed on a typical system v init system); most of them
>>>>> useless for everyday system management.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, imagine 384 services numbered S00 to S99.
>>>>
>>>> I've got 458.
>>>
>>> Fine, so use three digits.
>>
>> Who needs 458 services?
>
> Clearly no one.
> But apparently I have 458 to choose from.
>
> Here are all the ones starting with the letter "a":
>
> me>  systemctl list-unit-files 'a*'
> UNIT FILE                  STATE    VENDOR PRESET
> abrt-journal-core.service  enabled  enabled
> abrt-oops.service          enabled  enabled
> abrt-pstoreoops.service    disabled disabled
> abrt-vmcore.service        enabled  enabled
> abrt-xorg.service          enabled  enabled
> abrtd.service              enabled  enabled
> accounts-daemon.service    enabled  enabled
> acpid.service              disabled disabled
> akmods-shutdown.service    disabled disabled
> akmods.service             enabled  enabled
> akmods@.service            disabled disabled
> alsa-restore.service       static   disabled
> alsa-state.service         static   disabled
> anaconda-direct.service    static   disabled
> anaconda-nm-config.service static   disabled
> anaconda-noshell.service   static   disabled
> anaconda-pre.service       static   disabled
> anaconda-shell@.service    static   disabled
> anaconda-sshd.service      static   disabled
> anaconda-tmux@.service     static   disabled
> anaconda.service           static   disabled
> arp-ethers.service         disabled disabled
> atd.service                enabled  enabled
> auditd.service             enabled  enabled
> auth-rpcgss-module.service static   disabled
> autofs.service             disabled disabled
> autovt@.service            enabled  disabled
> avahi-daemon.service       enabled  enabled
> acpid.socket               enabled  disabled
> avahi-daemon.socket        enabled  enabled
> anaconda.target            static   disabled
>
> 31 unit files listed.
>
>
> maybe you can identify the ones that no one should ever need.
>

One of the problems I have with Windoze is
trying to strip services down to a minimum set and
still be useful. Linux is going that way and
the primary reason I say Linux is bloatware. Typically,
pages and pages in the process list and for what ?.
Added offence from systemd, with it's complex design
and arcane syntax. Intellectual self abuse, or what ?.

Compare that with FreeBSD, xfce4 desktop, two terminal
windows open and top reports 51 processes, all in
less than 1Gb ram. About a page of A4.
If you are an engineer or techie, efficiency
matters and lean design is respected. Just one of the
reasons I dumped later Linux versions for good some
time ago. No longer really respect it...

Chris

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#214035 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2020-09-09 21:05 +0100
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<20200909210556.8dfd771dd887c9d13d6fe3d7@eircom.net>
In reply to#214024
On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:31:57 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> The priority system was simple and effective using the standard
> System V intialization scripts.   They were executed in collating
> order in the default C locale.

	That was one of the misfeatures in that dog's dinner of a design.
If you want to add a script you have to work out what name to give it based
on the ordering you want. If a dependency changes you may have to rename
your script.

> So S01xxxx would be started before S93yyyy.

	Don't forget the K scripts running in the opposite order at level
exit time.

> the 'chkconfig' command would enable/disable services at the target
> runlevel. (e.g. chkconfig network on)

	Runlevels - that was another, an inelegant solution to a
non-problem.

	When FreeBSD moved off a single rc script and added rc.d I feared
the worst, but they came up with something that really is:

> Simple.  Easy.  Maintainable.  Flexible.  Independent.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#214046 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2020-09-09 16:55 -0700
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<1731802587.621388283.156654.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#214024
Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes:
>> On 09/08/20 23:09, Dan Espen wrote:
> 
>>> 
>>> In short what the systemd developers did was look at
>>> everything all those custom designed scripts and soft links were doing
>>> and abstracted it all into the .service files.  You can tell it's a
>>> clean design because each service has only 1 file with just a few
>>> entries being needed for each service.
>>> 
>> 

At PPOE we had a guy who did something similar for zOS startup. He wrote a
program that read a control file and  issued commands to start services in
sequence, including timed waits and appropriate replies to console
messages.

-- 
Pete

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#214070 — Re: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2020-09-10 15:48 +0000
SubjectRe: ZFS, -> WARNING back top systemd
Message-ID<aVr6H.457669$eN2.388073@fx47.iad>
In reply to#214046
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes:
>>> On 09/08/20 23:09, Dan Espen wrote:
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In short what the systemd developers did was look at
>>>> everything all those custom designed scripts and soft links were doing
>>>> and abstracted it all into the .service files.  You can tell it's a
>>>> clean design because each service has only 1 file with just a few
>>>> entries being needed for each service.
>>>> 
>>> 
>
>At PPOE we had a guy who did something similar for zOS startup. He wrote a
>program that read a control file and  issued commands to start services in
>sequence, including timed waits and appropriate replies to console
>messages.

Burroughs MCP had a SYSUP option.  If the option was set, the MCP would
execute a program called SYSUP when Halt/Loaded.  It was often used to
initialize the datacomm subsystems and start GEMCOS/SWITCH for the
datacomm station handling (e.g. transaction processing).

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#213923

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2020-09-08 15:38 +0000
Message-ID<CzN5H.86114$lZ.13721@fx12.iad>
In reply to#213881
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On 09/07/20 18:44, Dan Espen wrote:

>>>
>>> 1. Reduce boot time dramatically

Not a problem when you boot once a decade, which is
true of most servers (and in my case, desktop systems).

$ uptime
 08:36:30 up 686 days, 20:43, 24 users,  load average: 0.23, 0.16, 0.16    

>>> 2. Reduce shut down time the same way

Had never been a problem.   Push the button and walk away.

>>> 3. Manage running services in case a device is plugged in or has a
>>> problem and needs to restart

'service', 'chkconfig' and udev worked just fine for that, long before
systemd.

>>> 4. Finally make the relationships between running services clear

That should be a function of the services (sys v init handled this
just fine with a simple two-digit number.

The worst thing about systemd is that it completely violates the unix
philosophy of small, self-contained applications.

And it's just getting worse, taking over DNS and other run-time
services which it has no business being involved in.

>>>
>>>
>>
>> Won't get involved in wars, as I do use both and both work, though
>> all Linux here is pre systemd, or devuan.
>> However, from a software engineering point of FreeBSD looks far
>> more lean in it's design and has other advantages, such as a native
>> zfs file system and yes, no systemd.
>
>Not sure why zfs is a big winner:
>
>  ZFS is a combined file system and logical volume manager designed by
>  Sun Microsystems. ZFS is scalable, and includes extensive protection
>  against data corruption, support for high storage capacities,

It is an enterprise level filesystem.

>
>I was just reading about Fedora's new file system, XFS.

Hardly new.    SGI ported XFS (another enterprise level
filesystem) to linux 20 years ago.

>I'm not facing any issues with ext4 though.
>
>For Fedora, I didn't like or need LVM so I turned it off.

I don't need or like systemd.   Unfortunately, Fedora
and the server side (RHEL & derivatives) don't let you
turn it off.

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#213893

Fromusenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Date2020-09-08 02:29 +0000
Message-ID<5f56ec9a.1689779@news.dslextreme.com>
In reply to#213787
On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 20:57:50 +0100, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Re: Where did Microsoft go wrong?

Perhaps the answer lies within one of these:

Pride Before the Fall:  The Trials of Bill Gates and the End
of the Microsoft Era 
-- John Heilemann

Breaking Windows:  How Bill Gates Fumbled the Future of Microsoft
-- David Bank

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#213943

FromChris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
Date2020-09-08 17:53 +0100
Message-ID<rj8ctu$83s$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#213787
On 09/05/20 20:57, gareth evans wrote:
> With MS-DOS and early versions of Windows, Microsoft
> provided products to help you control your computer, but
> with W10 they are trying to control the way you use the
> computer.
>
> W10 is increasingly pissing me off and the next PC
> I buy will be LINUX based.
>
> So, just before my 35th year of being a Microsoft
> customer and user, they have finally succeeded in
> driving me away.

Pulling it back on topic :-)...

I wouldn't touch Wimdoze 10 with yours, if you will excuse the
expression and we have just one win7 desktop in the house, on
a separate subnet. Use the server version for the lab desktop,
only upgrading to 2008 from 2003 last year, when it became old
enough to be affordable on Ebay. Still getting updates as well,
but ignore much of that.

What I do like about ws2008 (~win 7) is that all services other
than essential are turned off by default and have to be enabled.
They also did a fair job with the system management tools as
well, though the myriad of options takes time to wade through.
Finally, there's an nfs client included, that just needs to be
enabled. Server as well if you need it. An essential since the
lab server and much else are all unix or variant. Much better
os than any of the home user versions...

Chris

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#213978

FromJ. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2020-09-08 17:43 -0400
Message-ID<oguflfp7j78cq6pq6l7kjdcietg87o3crs@4ax.com>
In reply to#213943
On Tue, 08 Sep 2020 17:53:20 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 09/05/20 20:57, gareth evans wrote:
>> With MS-DOS and early versions of Windows, Microsoft
>> provided products to help you control your computer, but
>> with W10 they are trying to control the way you use the
>> computer.
>>
>> W10 is increasingly pissing me off and the next PC
>> I buy will be LINUX based.
>>
>> So, just before my 35th year of being a Microsoft
>> customer and user, they have finally succeeded in
>> driving me away.
>
>Pulling it back on topic :-)...
>
>I wouldn't touch Wimdoze 10 with yours, if you will excuse the
>expression and we have just one win7 desktop in the house, on
>a separate subnet. Use the server version for the lab desktop,
>only upgrading to 2008 from 2003 last year, when it became old
>enough to be affordable on Ebay. Still getting updates as well,
>but ignore much of that.

Careful with that "old enough to be affordable on ebay".  The key is
often already in use and has sometimes been resold repeatedly,
resulting in Microsoft blocking it.  This may occur even after you
have installed and activated the OS.

>What I do like about ws2008 (~win 7) is that all services other
>than essential are turned off by default and have to be enabled.
>They also did a fair job with the system management tools as
>well, though the myriad of options takes time to wade through.
>Finally, there's an nfs client included, that just needs to be
>enabled. Server as well if you need it. An essential since the
>lab server and much else are all unix or variant. Much better
>os than any of the home user versions...
>
>Chris

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#213982

FromChris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
Date2020-09-08 23:00 +0100
Message-ID<rj8uup$g0d$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#213978
On 09/08/20 22:43, J. Clarke wrote:

That did happen, but complained and was sent another key, which is
working to this day. Windows is only here on sufferance anyway, for
a few legacy apps...

Chris

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