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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #212574 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-08-08 13:34 +0000 |
| Last post | 2020-08-11 23:20 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 210 — 39 participants |
Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers
Is the Eternal September over Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> - 2020-08-08 13:34 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 12:16 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> - 2020-08-08 16:23 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 13:34 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 13:41 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 16:21 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 13:38 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-17 12:47 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-08-08 16:14 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> - 2020-08-09 20:06 +0200
Re: Is the Eternal September over Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2020-08-11 23:46 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dave Garrett <dave@compassnet.com> - 2020-08-08 18:53 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 20:43 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-09 08:03 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 08:25 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2020-08-09 14:32 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2020-08-10 01:15 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-09 14:01 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 10:40 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-09 14:57 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 14:48 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 11:09 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-09 15:15 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-09 16:32 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2020-08-09 17:46 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 14:54 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2020-08-09 19:58 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 13:18 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> - 2020-08-09 20:09 +0200
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 14:34 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> - 2020-08-10 16:01 +0200
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-10 15:00 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-10 21:25 +0100
Re: EU, was Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-10 12:33 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-09 15:30 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-09 17:41 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-09 10:07 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 14:50 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-09 19:52 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 17:06 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-09 21:56 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-09 15:30 -0700
UK / EU split (was Re: Is the Eternal September over) lawrence <lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom> - 2020-08-10 14:48 -0500
Re: UK / EU split (was Re: Is the Eternal September over) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-10 13:05 -0700
Re: UK / EU split (was Re: Is the Eternal September over) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-10 18:19 -0400
Re: UK / EU split (was Re: Is the Eternal September over) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-10 21:38 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2020-08-10 01:16 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-09 10:07 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2020-08-13 09:57 +0200
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 08:01 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-13 14:33 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 10:46 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-08-13 10:40 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 11:49 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-13 17:24 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-14 11:05 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-13 09:53 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-13 17:04 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-13 22:57 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-13 17:12 -0700
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-14 02:48 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2020-08-16 11:45 +0200
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-16 07:37 -0400
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-16 16:00 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2020-08-23 12:25 +0200
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-17 09:16 +0100
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 21:11 -0400
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-14 07:13 -0700
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-08-14 17:06 -0500
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-14 22:45 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-08-14 20:29 -0300
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-15 17:44 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2020-08-15 22:52 -0400
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-16 03:40 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-15 23:51 -0400
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over greymaus@smaus.org - 2020-08-15 07:44 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-14 18:18 +0000
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 16:04 -0400
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-08-14 20:18 -0300
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 21:15 -0400
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-08-14 17:08 -0300
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-15 07:56 +0100
Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-15 10:25 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-13 09:53 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-13 17:02 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-13 18:50 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Gerard Schildberger <gerard46@rrt.net> - 2020-08-13 14:59 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-08-13 23:01 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-15 22:55 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-15 22:46 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-08-16 19:22 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-13 09:53 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 13:27 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-13 21:05 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 17:58 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-13 17:12 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 10:06 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-13 22:41 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-13 17:12 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-08-13 21:45 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-14 18:18 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-08-14 03:37 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over jtmpreno <none@znet.com> - 2020-08-13 20:54 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-14 04:03 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 06:14 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-14 11:57 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-14 11:19 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-14 07:13 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-14 16:12 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-14 11:46 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-15 23:07 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-08-16 11:22 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-15 23:03 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-14 18:45 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-08-14 16:42 -0300
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-14 13:42 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-15 23:10 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-17 09:21 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-17 09:46 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-17 11:14 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-17 11:33 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-17 10:25 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-17 19:37 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-18 14:36 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-18 14:34 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-17 10:25 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-17 19:42 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-18 11:17 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-08-18 19:41 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2020-08-18 04:19 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-18 11:31 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-18 14:45 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-14 07:13 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 13:43 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-08-14 16:49 -0300
Re: Is the Eternal September over JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 15:50 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-08-14 16:31 -0300
Re: Is the Eternal September over Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2020-08-14 01:40 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> - 2020-09-08 16:37 +0200
Re: Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-08 14:42 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-08 15:42 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 11:56 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-08 19:23 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-08 15:47 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> - 2020-10-04 21:38 +0200
Re: Is the Eternal September over Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-09 18:28 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-10 15:33 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-10 17:16 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-12 14:40 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-14 11:22 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2020-08-31 23:17 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2020-09-01 01:19 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-01 04:40 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2020-09-01 20:21 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-01 01:55 -0300
Re: Is the Eternal September over Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2020-09-01 09:36 +0300
Re: Is the Eternal September over scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-10 15:30 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-11 17:47 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-11 11:26 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-11 18:37 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 15:46 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-11 19:58 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 18:44 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 16:20 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-08-12 19:23 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-12 17:37 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-13 21:05 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 18:12 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-13 19:08 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2020-08-13 23:15 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-14 07:13 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 13:44 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 10:08 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-08-14 03:42 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 06:25 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-14 18:18 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-14 15:57 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-14 21:01 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-23 16:54 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-11 21:34 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-11 19:56 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-11 19:13 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-11 22:53 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 19:17 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-12 07:01 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> - 2020-08-11 18:39 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-11 20:28 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-12 07:12 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-11 22:53 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 15:06 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2020-08-11 23:35 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-02 07:03 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-11 17:29 -0700
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 20:30 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-11 21:50 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-12 06:50 -0400
Re: Is the Eternal September over Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-12 18:02 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-12 14:50 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-12 15:56 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-12 15:26 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> - 2020-08-12 15:41 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-08-12 17:47 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-02 07:03 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-02 09:41 +0100
Re: Is the Eternal September over Neodome Admin <admin@neodome.net> - 2020-09-06 01:02 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over Neodome Admin <admin@neodome.net> - 2020-09-06 01:02 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-08 02:29 +0000
Re: Is the Eternal September over lawrence <lawrenabe@abaluon.com> - 2020-08-12 14:59 -0500
Re: Is the Eternal September over Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2020-08-11 23:20 +0000
Page 1 of 11 [1] 2 3 … 11 Next page →
| From | Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 13:34 +0000 |
| Subject | Is the Eternal September over |
| Message-ID | <rgm9m3$up6$1@dont-email.me> |
From wikipedia: > Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a period beginning in September 1993, the month that Internet service provider America Online (AOL) began offering Usenet access to its many users, overwhelming the existing culture for online forums. Before then, Usenet was largely restricted to colleges, universities, and other research institutions. Every September, many incoming students would acquire access to Usenet for the first time, taking time to become accustomed to Usenet's standards of conduct and "netiquette". After a month or so, these new users would either learn to comply with the networks' social norms or tire of using the service. Since then the popularity of the Internet has led to a constant stream of new users. Hence, from the point of view of the early Usenet, the influx of new users in September 1993 never ended. Dave Fischer appears to have coined the term in a January 1994 post to alt.folklore.computers: "It's moot now. September 1993 will go down in net history as the September that never ended." > With the exception of those who use Usenet as a means of downloading pirated material and who provide nothing of value to Usenet at all, is the eternal september over and should we go back to the days of valuing quality communication and netiquette? By being over, I mean the gradual loss of interest in Usenet over centralized corporate platforms like Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook. I'm in the process of writing a new guide on netiquette for beginners based on RFC1855, Spaf's "A Primer on How to Work With the USENET Community", and a few other documents but without the legalistic nannying that many "Codes of Conduct" have. If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they start using Usenet? JE
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| From | Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 12:16 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212574 |
Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> writes: > From wikipedia: > >> > Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a > period beginning in September 1993, the month that Internet service > provider America Online (AOL) began offering Usenet access to its many > users, overwhelming the existing culture for online forums. > > Before then, Usenet was largely restricted to colleges, universities, and > other research institutions. Every September, many incoming students > would acquire access to Usenet for the first time, taking time to become > accustomed to Usenet's standards of conduct and "netiquette". After a > month or so, these new users would either learn to comply with the > networks' social norms or tire of using the service. > > Since then the popularity of the Internet has led to a constant stream of > new users. Hence, from the point of view of the early Usenet, the influx > of new users in September 1993 never ended. > > Dave Fischer appears to have coined the term in a January 1994 post to > alt.folklore.computers: "It's moot now. September 1993 will go down in > net history as the September that never ended." > > With the exception of those who use Usenet as a means of downloading > pirated material and who provide nothing of value to Usenet at all, is > the eternal september over and should we go back to the days of valuing > quality communication and netiquette? By being over, I mean the gradual > loss of interest in Usenet over centralized corporate platforms like > Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook. > > I'm in the process of writing a new guide on netiquette for beginners > based on RFC1855, Spaf's "A Primer on How to Work With the USENET > Community", and a few other documents but without the legalistic nannying > that many "Codes of Conduct" have. > > If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and > living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most > important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they > start using Usenet? No, definitely not over. Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19. For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school. It's going to get worse, much worse. -- Dan Espen
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| From | Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 16:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rgmjih$1ed$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212575 |
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: >> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >> start using Usenet? > > No, definitely not over. > Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. > > I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19. > For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school. > It's going to get worse, much worse. How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes with having unmoderated groups. JE
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 13:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <heotif90ctfrihvdjkp9njmfet39cdog12@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #212576 |
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:23:46 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote: >On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: > >>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >>> start using Usenet? >> >> No, definitely not over. >> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. >> >> I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19. >> For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school. >> It's going to get worse, much worse. > >How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better >because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls >who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and >conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the >Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes >with having unmoderated groups. There's also the influx from Google Groups with all of its fallout.
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| From | Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 13:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rgmo3v$q8n$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212579 |
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes: > On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:23:46 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans > <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote: > >>On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: >> >>>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >>>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >>>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >>>> start using Usenet? >>> >>> No, definitely not over. >>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. >>> >>> I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19. >>> For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school. >>> It's going to get worse, much worse. >> >>How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better >>because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls >>who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and >>conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the >>Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes >>with having unmoderated groups. > > There's also the influx from Google Groups with all of its fallout. On a number of groups we have other forums (like homeowners heaven) using a gateway to Usenet to make it look like they have traffic. I see posts responding to threads from 10 or 20 years ago with zero citations. -- Dan Espen
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 16:21 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <782uif9tq1vevfucn0plj98f79pa28svdo@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #212582 |
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 13:41:19 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote: >J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes: > >> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:23:46 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans >> <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: >>> >>>>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >>>>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >>>>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >>>>> start using Usenet? >>>> >>>> No, definitely not over. >>>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. >>>> >>>> I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19. >>>> For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school. >>>> It's going to get worse, much worse. >>> >>>How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better >>>because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls >>>who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and >>>conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the >>>Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes >>>with having unmoderated groups. >> >> There's also the influx from Google Groups with all of its fallout. > >On a number of groups we have other forums (like homeowners heaven) using >a gateway to Usenet to make it look like they have traffic. I see posts >responding to threads from 10 or 20 years ago with zero citations. Yeah. And every once in a while if one comments on a post on one of those one will be threatened with "I'm going to complain to your manager". An empty threat to someone who is self-employed, or retired, or whose manager has no clue that such a thing as USENET exists.
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| From | Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 13:38 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rgmnv7$q8n$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212576 |
Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> writes: > On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: > >>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >>> start using Usenet? >> >> No, definitely not over. >> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. >> >> I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19. >> For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school. >> It's going to get worse, much worse. > > How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better > because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls > who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and > conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the > Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes > with having unmoderated groups. This is true, but the result is the same. -- Dan Espen
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-17 12:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <91dd4ef1-3f1a-4168-bbd3-63e705e167bco@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #212576 |
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 12:23:47 PM UTC-4, Jason Evans wrote: > How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better > because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls > who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and > conspiracy theories? The online community has been complaining about that ever since there was an online community. I remember a conference about it. Let's see, when was that? Oh yes, it was 50 (that's fifty) years ago! Yes, even back in Teletype days there were issues.
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| From | Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 16:14 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <87mu34dhez.fsf@usenet.ankman.de> |
| In reply to | #212575 |
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: > > Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> writes: > >> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >> start using Usenet? > > No, definitely not over. > Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over. -- Andreas
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| From | Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-09 20:06 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rgpdv3$apd$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212583 |
Op 8-8-2020 om 22:14 schreef Andreas Kohlbach: > On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: >> >> Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> writes: >> >>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >>> start using Usenet? >> >> No, definitely not over. >> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. > > Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do > with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over. > Usenet is not from AOL. There are many usenet providers, yes less than 10 years ago, but still enough. Rink
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| From | Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-11 23:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rgvajv$20gu$9@neodome.net> |
| In reply to | #212583 |
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes: > On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:16:09 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: >> >> Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> writes: >> >>> If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and >>> living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most >>> important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they >>> start using Usenet? >> >> No, definitely not over. >> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. > > Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do > with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over. AOL does no offer Usenet access since 2005. However, I don't think Eternal September is tied to AOL. Yes, it's started with AOL, but it was bound to happen anyway. It's a problem all communities are facing when they get too popular.
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| From | Dave Garrett <dave@compassnet.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 18:53 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.3998f6d911c5b83198a44a@208.90.168.18> |
| In reply to | #212575 |
In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says... > No, definitely not over. > Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really alt.politics.home.repair. -- Dave
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| From | Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-08 20:43 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rgngrj$8mh$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212587 |
Dave Garrett <dave@compassnet.com> writes: > In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says... > >> No, definitely not over. >> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. > > I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile, > the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of > incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their > apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really > alt.politics.home.repair. Yeah, don't know why I hang around there. Kill files barely make a dent. I guess I like the subject of home repair and I keep hoping they'll go somewhere else. -- Dan Espen
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| From | Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-09 08:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <hp9ou1Fe99U16@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #212587 |
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote: > In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says... > >> No, definitely not over. >> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. > > I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile, > the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of > incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their > apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really > alt.politics.home.repair. WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ... -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-09 08:25 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rgoq00$cra$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212593 |
Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> writes: > On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote: > >> In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says... >> >>> No, definitely not over. >>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. >> >> I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile, >> the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of >> incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their >> apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really >> alt.politics.home.repair. > > WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ... From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse. A huge amount of name calling and stalking. Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk. -- Dan Espen
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| From | snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-09 14:32 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <1ouvgei.1cgxsyl1u3vgd0N%snipeco.2@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #212594 |
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote: > Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> writes: > > > On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote: > > > >> In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says... > >> > >>> No, definitely not over. > >>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. > >> > >> I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile, > >> the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of > >> incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their > >> apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really > >> alt.politics.home.repair. > > > > WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ... > > From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse. > A huge amount of name calling and stalking. > Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk. > Re: uk.* Limiting crossposts to three or fewer groups works wonders, then a handful of poster-specific killfile entries will do the trick. Greetings, Usenet fans. Usenet may be moribund but it isn't dead yet; there is even a glimmer of renaissance. Usenet's greatest strength is its distributed server nature that "interprets censorship as damage and routes around it". It's in the nature of the beast that being free of censorship Usenet can't silence noisy pests, nor should it. Fortunately, a well managed killfile and a little self-control can deal with that chore. IMO Usenet is by far superior to FB, Twitter and Reddit too. There are very few web forums that can better it. -- ^Ï^ <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E> My pet rock Gordon just is.
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| From | Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-10 01:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <Tc1YG.1842548$imF1.236595@fx15.am4> |
| In reply to | #212595 |
On 2020-08-09, Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote: > > IMO Usenet is by far superior to FB, Twitter and Reddit too. > There are very few web forums that can better it. Of course! > -- current job title: senior software engineer skills: c++,c,rust,go,nim,haskell... press any key to continue or any other to quit... U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
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| From | Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-09 14:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <hpadu7Fe99U17@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #212594 |
On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 08:25:34 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: > Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> writes: > >> On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote: >> >>> In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says... >>> >>>> No, definitely not over. >>>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. >>> >>> I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive >>> killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to >>> the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from >>> their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really >>> alt.politics.home.repair. >> >> WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ... > > From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse. > A huge amount of name calling and stalking. > Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk. No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth... -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-09 10:40 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rgp1ss$qa5$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #212596 |
Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> writes: > On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 08:25:34 -0400, Dan Espen wrote: > >> Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> writes: >> >>> On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 18:53:03 -0500, Dave Garrett wrote: >>> >>>> In article <rgmj4m$tq3$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says... >>>> >>>>> No, definitely not over. >>>>> Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair. >>>> >>>> I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive >>>> killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to >>>> the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from >>>> their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really >>>> alt.politics.home.repair. >>> >>> WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ... >> >> From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse. >> A huge amount of name calling and stalking. >> Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk. > > No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth... A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me. Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the EU on an even basis with the US. Now if we could get a South American and an African union going. I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the curse of the Tower of Babel. -- Dan Espen
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| From | Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-08-09 14:57 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <hpah6sF4th3U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #212597 |
On 2020-08-09, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote: > Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> writes: >> >> No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth... > > A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me. > Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict > and putting the EU on an even basis with the US. > Now if we could get a South American and an African union > going. The African Union exists, we just don't hear much about it generally. Niklas -- If you demonstrate that you can cook superior food using an induction stove, is that an instance of proof by induction?
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