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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #164962 > unrolled thread

Is it a lost cause?

Started by"gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid>
First post2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
Last post2016-06-28 16:19 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 1000+ — 73 participants
Thread has 1303 articles; only the first 1000 are indexed.

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Thread has 1303 articles; showing the first 1000 in depth-first order. Use the flat group view to see the rest.


Contents

  Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:02 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 17:43 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-13 23:05 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:52 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-14 06:39 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:22 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:54 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? timcaffrey420@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 11:47 -0700
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-15 14:17 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? timcaffrey420@gmail.com - 2016-06-15 14:03 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-15 14:18 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-16 12:45 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:52 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:55 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:53 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 13:27 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:41 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 15:05 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 14:09 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:14 -0500
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 19:48 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-15 20:05 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 21:29 -0500
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:07 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 23:02 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:56 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:13 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:39 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-17 08:46 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-13 23:44 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:57 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-14 09:41 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 12:09 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:14 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:54 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:57 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 13:02 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 14:45 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:22 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:56 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-14 10:21 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-15 08:19 -0500
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:59 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:48 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:56 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-14 09:48 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 00:18 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:57 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:05 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:24 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 13:03 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 13:10 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 12:28 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 15:37 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:19 +0300
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:08 +0300
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-17 16:09 +0300
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-17 10:34 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 13:00 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 22:58 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:03 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:24 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-15 18:07 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-15 18:06 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:25 -0700
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-20 18:25 -0700
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-21 16:11 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-21 21:13 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-21 19:49 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-22 07:33 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-22 09:04 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-22 09:23 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-22 05:40 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-24 18:58 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 03:47 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 23:55 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:03 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 10:20 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:43 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 04:38 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-02 14:00 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 12:09 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 12:36 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:32 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:49 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-15 04:54 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:52 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-01 22:17 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:10 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-02 21:35 +0300
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 20:45 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 22:14 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-02 21:42 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:33 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:45 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:36 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:20 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:38 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 12:03 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:18 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 15:17 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 18:28 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 03:14 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:17 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 09:55 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:15 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:42 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:51 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:45 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:54 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:10 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 20:16 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 22:12 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 21:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:15 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-04 11:03 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-05 10:12 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:26 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:35 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 18:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Alan Frisbie <Usenet03_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> - 2016-07-04 09:16 -0700
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-04 09:01 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 15:54 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:55 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:11 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:01 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:32 +0200
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-05 17:11 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 14:44 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 18:19 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:01 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-04 16:50 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 13:27 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:39 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 16:27 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:30 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 17:31 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:30 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:57 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 14:51 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-05 02:49 +1000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:26 +1000
                                  Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 23:18 +0000
                                    Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) - 2016-07-04 08:24 +0000
                                      Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-07-04 09:45 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:20 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 16:15 -0400
                            Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:55 +0000
                              Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:35 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 11:22 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-03 12:33 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:57 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-04 15:47 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:24 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-05 10:12 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:31 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:10 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:47 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 21:56 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 00:44 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 00:55 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:21 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 11:39 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:21 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:06 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 13:53 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 01:16 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 22:35 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 23:23 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 00:07 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:20 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 13:37 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 13:22 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 10:59 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 14:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-04 10:00 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:42 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:52 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-07-05 22:59 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 06:44 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 09:45 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:14 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:04 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 07:49 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 21:53 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 -0400
                  Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:05 +0100
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:05 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:30 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 12:03 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 12:35 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 18:03 +0100
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:39 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:39 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:40 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:42 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:53 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 15:20 -0400
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:50 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-04 16:28 -0500
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:37 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:03 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:08 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:13 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 06:36 -0400
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:37 +0100
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 13:21 +0100
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:12 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0200
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 19:52 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:30 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:51 +0000
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:32 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:44 +0000
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 17:05 -0500
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
                                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 20:00 -0500
                                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-05 21:16 -0600
                                      Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0000
                                        Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 15:01 +0000
                                            Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:49 -0400
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 10:45 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:00 +0200
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:46 -0400
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 07:23 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 04:30 -0400
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 10:44 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-06 11:34 +0200
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:32 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:56 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:52 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:25 +0000
                          Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:10 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:35 -0500
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-05 17:18 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:05 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:12 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 21:49 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-06 06:12 -0500
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-06 11:21 -0700
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 19:41 +0000
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-07 08:35 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-05 08:51 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:05 +0100
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-04 23:04 +0300
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 20:35 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:54 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:49 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-04 21:54 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0300
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:40 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-05 18:51 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:21 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:28 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:38 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:53 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-04 14:52 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 17:22 -0400
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:39 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:35 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:50 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:00 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:03 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 23:37 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 20:43 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:05 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-14 10:20 -0700
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:16 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-15 08:01 -0500
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 13:06 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 14:26 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 03:24 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 08:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:11 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 07:56 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-02 10:30 -0500
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 16:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 17:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 16:58 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 11:52 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-02 06:23 -0500
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:02 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:09 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:01 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:09 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:29 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:30 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 08:57 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:14 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 08:36 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:25 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 22:33 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:24 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:02 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 12:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 09:38 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:35 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:36 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:32 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:00 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-18 18:14 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-18 12:25 -0500
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:11 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:04 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:26 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:43 -0500
          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:48 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:50 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:42 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:50 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:52 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Luke A. Guest <laguest@archeia.com> - 2016-07-01 20:28 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-01 20:21 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-01 23:10 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-01 22:35 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:35 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 11:24 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 11:21 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-02 12:39 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:01 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 13:51 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:32 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-02 19:51 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 22:06 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-03 10:41 -0700
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 11:29 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 18:39 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:36 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 18:56 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:14 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 15:28 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:23 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 17:35 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 19:48 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 15:01 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 13:17 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:24 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:29 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 12:09 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-05 17:38 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 18:23 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:30 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-06 09:02 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:29 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 23:07 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 12:45 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 09:05 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 13:52 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Gerard Schildberger <gerard46@rrt.net> - 2016-07-06 15:43 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 07:37 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 08:51 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-06 15:09 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 00:26 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:12 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-04 12:47 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:43 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 18:40 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-02 13:09 -0700
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 23:01 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 19:19 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 00:55 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-03 08:59 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:12 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 08:10 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:22 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 12:24 -0500
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-07-02 07:05 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 09:14 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 13:00 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:46 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 14:59 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:27 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:17 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:17 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:10 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 16:09 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:18 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:28 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:34 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-07 14:45 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 16:27 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-07 11:53 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-07 16:01 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:33 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-07 18:13 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 19:30 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-08 12:18 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:38 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:19 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 14:22 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:30 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:20 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-06 21:52 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-08 12:12 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 12:48 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-08 07:30 -0500
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-08 09:22 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-08 16:00 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-08 08:43 -0600
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-07-08 14:49 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 18:45 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 17:32 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-08 11:35 -0700
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:51 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-07 07:47 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 23:41 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-09 00:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 12:51 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-09 14:07 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 13:05 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 14:12 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:21 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 19:35 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:55 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 10:40 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-09 09:02 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:28 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-09 13:09 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-10 19:39 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-07-10 19:29 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-10 21:03 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2016-07-10 22:59 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-11 02:35 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2016-07-11 09:21 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-11 01:31 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:35 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-10 14:38 -0500
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2016-07-10 21:29 -0700
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 07:25 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-07-12 07:04 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-12 11:35 -0500
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-07-12 16:56 -0500
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-11 18:25 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 18:00 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:13 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 16:39 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 16:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:43 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 21:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 18:25 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:53 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 20:55 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-10 12:06 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-10 14:05 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-11 11:32 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-11 14:04 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 10:00 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-11 15:58 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 11:38 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-11 13:19 -0700
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-12 09:43 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-11 22:31 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 14:48 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-11 15:16 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 11:46 -0400
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-11 17:13 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:50 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 16:13 -0400
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 12:46 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-11 11:00 -0700
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 16:17 -0400
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-12 12:41 -0700
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-12 22:09 -0400
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 16:23 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 16:41 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-12 12:34 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-12 10:36 -0500
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-13 12:48 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-12 08:43 -0700
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:05 +0200
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:56 +0200
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-11 10:52 -0700
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-11 19:44 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-11 13:30 -0700
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 21:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-12 00:06 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-12 12:34 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-12 12:44 -0700
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-12 20:23 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-11 22:49 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-12 11:44 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-12 16:58 +0100
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-12 18:44 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-12 10:36 -0500
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 16:12 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-12 13:34 -0500
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 19:40 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-12 17:31 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-12 12:34 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:57 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 16:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:27 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:46 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 18:00 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 18:39 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-11 11:03 -0700
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 18:31 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:44 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:59 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-07-11 20:28 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-12 07:51 -0700
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-12 10:14 -0500
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-12 08:31 -0700
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-12 12:06 -0400
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-13 12:49 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-12 18:13 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-12 18:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-12 17:52 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-13 09:09 +0100
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-13 15:56 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-13 12:43 +0000
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-14 12:18 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 18:16 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-12 21:57 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-12 13:23 -0500
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-12 19:46 +0100
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-12 19:09 +0000
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-13 03:36 +0000
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-13 06:38 +0100
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-13 07:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-07-12 20:36 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-13 12:48 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-07-12 20:48 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 06:34 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-13 13:34 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 15:46 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:23 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-08 10:56 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-08 19:57 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:49 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:04 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:20 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:43 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 19:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:19 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:48 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-07 15:25 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-08 12:18 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-08 11:06 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-10 12:25 -0500
                                Compiler Design was Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 19:21 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 15:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:36 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-08 20:43 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2016-07-06 00:28 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:32 +0200
          Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-02 13:09 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-07-03 09:13 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-07-02 19:20 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rambo <Rambo@thisaintreal.org> - 2016-06-13 20:07 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:42 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:43 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:12 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:17 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:31 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 20:29 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:48 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 08:11 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:14 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:23 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:46 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 10:22 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:01 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:59 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:30 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:51 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-14 15:24 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? colonel_hack@yahoo.com - 2016-06-15 16:30 -0700
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-15 20:07 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 09:38 +0200
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 09:23 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:05 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 10:44 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-16 21:11 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-17 09:00 +0200
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-14 17:07 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:14 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:45 +0200
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:34 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:44 +0200
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:21 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:15 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:05 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:10 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:29 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:41 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:42 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:29 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:47 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:24 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:37 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:42 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 13:53 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:00 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:20 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Brian Reay <no.sp@m.com> - 2016-06-14 08:35 -0700
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:45 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:18 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 15:57 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:13 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:37 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:41 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-14 12:25 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:19 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-14 15:09 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:02 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:36 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:40 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:09 -0500
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:23 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:50 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 17:02 -0500
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:13 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:59 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:19 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:23 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 10:01 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:40 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 12:19 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:37 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:39 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:19 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:59 +1000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:06 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:15 -0500
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 19:44 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:55 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 11:49 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:31 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:29 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-15 18:20 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:27 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 17:18 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:58 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-16 07:38 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 08:59 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:34 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-16 07:49 -0500
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-17 12:26 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 13:06 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-17 10:44 -0700
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-17 13:02 -0500
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 19:36 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 19:33 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-17 20:15 -0500
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 09:55 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:49 -0700
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 12:08 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 14:10 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 20:11 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Hall <sweet_stevie@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 19:42 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:54 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:48 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:07 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-18 08:38 -0700
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:07 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:10 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-19 13:31 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 16:05 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 19:04 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-16 09:37 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-16 18:24 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-17 15:26 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:39 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:36 +0200
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-21 17:13 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-21 19:10 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-21 21:00 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:42 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:31 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:30 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:55 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:18 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:47 +1000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:53 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 22:37 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-16 09:49 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:06 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 09:06 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 10:46 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 10:15 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 17:46 +0200
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 17:38 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 16:16 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 17:06 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 17:13 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 17:14 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2016-06-19 18:35 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-19 10:05 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-19 20:18 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:16 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 06:23 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-20 02:45 -0500
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 09:39 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-19 10:06 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-19 20:21 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-06-17 08:03 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 08:07 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:23 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:55 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-18 02:03 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 16:24 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-17 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-17 20:05 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 12:27 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 16:29 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:35 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 19:54 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:15 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 10:32 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:05 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:52 -0700
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:32 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-06-18 17:36 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 09:08 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:26 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 13:59 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:05 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-19 13:31 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:33 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 13:58 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:53 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:45 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 09:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-18 11:02 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 11:13 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:35 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:42 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:47 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 19:14 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 16:01 -0500
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:27 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:56 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-18 08:43 -0700
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:09 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:51 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 19:20 +0200
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-06-18 17:51 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 21:31 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 21:28 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 21:51 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:31 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:11 +0200
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 15:57 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 14:59 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-20 11:01 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-20 13:54 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:13 +0300
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 14:40 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:56 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-18 08:30 -0700
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:49 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:31 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-19 21:49 +0300
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-20 07:41 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:54 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:55 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:24 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-19 14:13 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 22:12 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-19 19:24 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:27 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 11:25 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 12:10 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 17:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:29 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 13:37 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:29 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 06:25 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-20 06:57 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 10:09 +0300
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-20 08:31 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-20 09:47 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:43 +0300
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-06-20 18:09 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-20 16:15 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-22 15:09 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-20 13:50 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:43 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:07 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:53 -0700
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-20 16:30 -0500
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:33 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-20 19:55 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-21 11:02 -0500
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-21 19:02 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-21 20:30 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-27 13:06 -0700
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-28 05:29 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-28 17:23 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-21 11:52 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-21 20:16 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-21 22:55 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-22 05:40 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 04:56 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-22 06:59 -0400
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 17:26 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0200
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-23 13:08 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-23 15:57 +0200
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-24 12:33 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-24 17:29 +0200
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-24 17:55 +0000
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-27 13:18 -0700
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-27 19:16 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-28 10:17 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 10:29 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-28 11:46 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 13:10 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-28 14:49 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 18:41 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-28 17:23 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-28 15:59 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-28 13:01 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 13:09 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-28 12:16 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-28 08:36 -0400
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-29 11:53 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-28 14:47 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 18:41 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-22 19:02 -0500
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-23 13:08 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-23 14:02 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-24 12:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-24 12:47 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-24 13:47 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-23 09:08 -0500
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-23 15:51 +0200
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-23 18:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-24 12:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-24 15:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-25 20:50 +0100
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-26 13:10 +0000
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-26 20:10 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-26 21:38 +0000
                                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 05:42 +0100
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-27 08:33 +0200
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 13:58 +0100
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-27 19:05 +0000
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 20:54 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-27 11:37 +0000
                                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 14:10 +0100
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-28 12:16 +0000
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-28 14:06 +0100
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-28 14:02 +0000
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-28 14:27 +0000
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-28 16:45 +0200
                                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-28 16:19 +0000

Page 12 of 50 — ← Prev page 1 … 10 11 [12] 13 14 … 50  Next page →


#166481

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-04 14:49 -0400
Message-ID<nleb3o$1df$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#166473
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <nldpaf$qsd$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>> 
>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>> 
>>>> In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>> 
>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
>>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>>>>>>>>>>> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>>>>>>>>>>> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>>>>>>>>>>> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>>>>>>>>>>> starting to process its input.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>>>>>>>>>>> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>>>>>>>>>>> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>>>>>>>>>>> a COBOL program.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
>>>>>>>>>> with DD cards.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, but it's just an example.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>>>>>>>>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
>>>>>>>>> for the paper tape.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
>>>>>>>> somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
>>>>>>>> JCL to send output to a 2741.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nope, you won't find that.
>>>>>>> I've done a lot of BTAM.
>>>>>>> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
>>>>>>> You just allocate the UCB.
>>>>>>> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
>>>>>>> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
>>>>>>> use the device.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please, feel free to provide a link.
>>>>> That's the way I remember it.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
>>>> 2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm
>>> 
>>> Looks like you are right.
>>> Sure can't remember ever having to use that.
>> 
>> IBM has made a lot of changes in their OS through the years, maybe 
>> that's one of them.
>
> So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
> 360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
> in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
> would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
> System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
> were card only.

Looks relatively current to me. z/OS in the title.
I should mention that the subject was needing separate code.
BTAM open looks something like other opens, same with read/write/close,
but usually more operands and things like polling or flow control have
to be addressed.
The DCB for BTAM varies a lot.
  
Even though I see DSORG=CX in the JCL DD statement, I doubt that would let you
take a routine reading mag tape and make it read paper tape by changing
the JCL.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#166491

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
Message-ID<1018723302.489352848.193954.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166473
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
>> 360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
>> in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
>> would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
>> System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
>> were card only.
> 
> TTY had paper tape ... univ. had a some 33 and one 35
> http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1319357
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33
> 
> "the Model 33 ASR, (Automatic Send and Receive), which has a built in
> 8-level punched tape reader and tape punch;"
> 
> "The Model 33 was one of the first products to employ the then new ASCII
> code. A companion Model 32 used the more established five-level Baudot
> code. Because of its low price and ASCII-compatibility, the Model 33 was
> widely used with early minicomputers."

I recall using paper tape on a TTY, but I believe we just turned it on and
off manually, and to the computer it was the same as typing on the keyboard
or printing a file.

> 
> ... snip ...
> 
> I don't remember seeing 1052 with 1054/1055 paper tape reader/punch
> (but common with tty)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1050
> 
> some people at science center
> http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
> 
> came out Jan1968 to univ. installing CP67, it had 1052 & 2741 terminal
> support ... including dynamic terminal identification ... it played
> games switching the SAD CCW to switch port-scanner type on line and some
> trivial transmission to determine terminal type. I added the TTY/ASCII
> to support the univ ascii tty devices ... extending the dynamic terminal
> type games with SAD CCW for ascii tty.
> 
> I then wanted to setup single dialin phone number for all terminals
> (single "hunt group") ... but it didn't quite worked because they had
> taken short-cut ... while SAD CCW would change port-scanner type, the
> line speed was hard wired for each port. It worked for 1052 & 2741
> because they operated at same line speed ... while TTY terminals were
> different line speed (requiring different dial in numbers for 1052/2741
> and TTY). The dynamic terminal type still worked ... as long as the
> terminal was connected to port with correct line speed.
> 
> this was part of motivation for the univ to start clone controller
> project, take an Interdata/3 programmed to emulate mainframe terminal
> controller ... and do dynamic terminal line speed, reverse engineer
> channel interface and build channel interface board for Interdata/3.
> Later this was enhanced with an Interdata/4 to handle the mainframe
> channel interface and cluster of Interdate/3s handling the port scanner
> functions. Four of us get written up as responsible for (some part of)
> mainframe clone controller business with Interdata is marketing the box.
> When Perkin/Elmer buys Interdata, it is continued to be sold under
> P/E logo.
> 
> some past posts
> http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm
> 
> note that IBM help originate ASCII
> http://www.bobbemer.com/ASCII.HTM
> http://www.bobbemer.com/FATHEROF.HTM
> http://www.bobbemer.com/HISTORY.HTM
> 
> and tale of "the biggest computer goof ever", mainframe became EBCDIC
> (instead of ASCII)
> http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM
> 
> and for other drift, recent thread in ibm-main group referencing
> connection between cp/67 and ms/dos
> http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#103 Multithreaded output to stderr and stdout
> 



-- 
Pete

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#166495

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
Message-ID<1531408310.489340818.426826.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166473
J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <nldpaf$qsd$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> 
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>> 
>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
>>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>>>>>>>>>> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>>>>>>>>>> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>>>>>>>>>> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>>>>>>>>>> starting to process its input.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>>>>>>>>>> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>>>>>>>>>> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>>>>>>>>>> a COBOL program.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
>>>>>>>>> with DD cards.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, but it's just an example.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>>>>>>>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
>>>>>>>> for the paper tape.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
>>>>>>> somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
>>>>>>> JCL to send output to a 2741.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nope, you won't find that.
>>>>>> I've done a lot of BTAM.
>>>>>> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
>>>>>> You just allocate the UCB.
>>>>>> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
>>>>>> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
>>>>>> use the device.
>>>>> 
>>>>> IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
>>>> 
>>>> Please, feel free to provide a link.
>>>> That's the way I remember it.
>>> 
>>> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
>>> 2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm
>> 
>> Looks like you are right.
>> Sure can't remember ever having to use that.
> 
> IBM has made a lot of changes in their OS through the years, maybe 
> that's one of them.
> 

So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
were card only.

-- 
Pete

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#166527

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-07-04 10:00 -0700
Message-ID<87lh1hbap1.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#166495
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
> 360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
> in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
> would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
> System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape, but All the ones I saw
> were card only.

TTY had paper tape ... univ. had a some 33 and one 35
http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1319357
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33

"the Model 33 ASR, (Automatic Send and Receive), which has a built in
8-level punched tape reader and tape punch;"

"The Model 33 was one of the first products to employ the then new ASCII
code. A companion Model 32 used the more established five-level Baudot
code. Because of its low price and ASCII-compatibility, the Model 33 was
widely used with early minicomputers."

... snip ...

I don't remember seeing 1052 with 1054/1055 paper tape reader/punch
(but common with tty)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1050

some people at science center
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

came out Jan1968 to univ. installing CP67, it had 1052 & 2741 terminal
support ... including dynamic terminal identification ... it played
games switching the SAD CCW to switch port-scanner type on line and some
trivial transmission to determine terminal type. I added the TTY/ASCII
to support the univ ascii tty devices ... extending the dynamic terminal
type games with SAD CCW for ascii tty.

I then wanted to setup single dialin phone number for all terminals
(single "hunt group") ... but it didn't quite worked because they had
taken short-cut ... while SAD CCW would change port-scanner type, the
line speed was hard wired for each port. It worked for 1052 & 2741
because they operated at same line speed ... while TTY terminals were
different line speed (requiring different dial in numbers for 1052/2741
and TTY). The dynamic terminal type still worked ... as long as the
terminal was connected to port with correct line speed.

this was part of motivation for the univ to start clone controller
project, take an Interdata/3 programmed to emulate mainframe terminal
controller ... and do dynamic terminal line speed, reverse engineer
channel interface and build channel interface board for Interdata/3.
Later this was enhanced with an Interdata/4 to handle the mainframe
channel interface and cluster of Interdate/3s handling the port scanner
functions. Four of us get written up as responsible for (some part of)
mainframe clone controller business with Interdata is marketing the box.
When Perkin/Elmer buys Interdata, it is continued to be sold under
P/E logo.

some past posts
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm

note that IBM help originate ASCII
http://www.bobbemer.com/ASCII.HTM
http://www.bobbemer.com/FATHEROF.HTM
http://www.bobbemer.com/HISTORY.HTM

and tale of "the biggest computer goof ever", mainframe became EBCDIC
(instead of ASCII)
http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM

and for other drift, recent thread in ibm-main group referencing
connection between cp/67 and ms/dos
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#103 Multithreaded output to stderr and stdout

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#166570

Fromjeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
Date2016-07-05 01:42 -0400
Message-ID<nlfhb9$ada$1@panix3.panix.com>
In reply to#166495
>>>>>>>>> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>>>>>>>>> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>>>>>>>>> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)

>So, Bitsavers probably has old JCL manuals. Go check.  Among a number of
>360 systems I worked on I never saw paper tape. I guess it was more common
>in Europe, for some reason.  In the US it was common for typesetting, and I
>would guess for driving CNC machines, and neither of these were (AFAIK) big
>System/360 applications.  More 1130s had paper tape,
>but All the ones I saw were card only.

CNC machines used paper tape well into the 80s.
I suspect offline machines converted punched cards or tape
to paper tape.
Later model FACET paper tape punches
are rather intelligent and programmable for end-of-line handling, etc.
which is ideal for offline copying & translation.

One of the 2 IBM 1130s I used around 1980 at the Cooper Union
had the paper tape punch but no tape reader.
I never got around to interfacing the Tally paper tape reader
from the LGP21 to the 1130: they seemed indentical with 48v solenoids
for tape motion, 8 star wheels to mechanically read the tape.
Both 1130s had the 1442 card reader/punch, which were a pleasure to use.

-- jeffj

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#166574

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-07-05 08:52 +0100
Message-ID<20160705085226.431eee89c28f790f1c4f5364@eircom.net>
In reply to#166570
On 5 Jul 2016 01:42:01 -0400
jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) wrote:

> Both 1130s had the 1442 card reader/punch, which were a pleasure to use.

	Right up to the moment some wazzock put a deck in with a damaged
card, the slightest kink on the leading edge of a card pretty much
guaranteed that two or three cards would be shredded and spread throughout
the inner workings, many of use became proficient with the card saw.

	Our 1130 was replaced by an Eclipse and the 1442 with a table top
card reader that used an air jet to fan the bottom of the stack instead of
a precision 1.00000000000001 card thickness slot. The demo was impressive,
one card in the deck was removed, crumpled, roughly flattened and put back
in the deck. When it went through there was a sort of gulping sound but no
read error, and no mess of shredded cards to sort out.

	The perfect card reader - pity it was just in time for us to stop
using cards, the Eclipes was multi-user, had terminals and plenty of disk.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#166742

Fromsidd@situ.com (sidd)
Date2016-07-05 22:59 -0400
Message-ID<nlhs5l$dg4$1@Lazarus.situ.com>
In reply to#166570
In article <nlfhb9$ada$1@panix3.panix.com>, Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
>
>CNC machines used paper tape well into the 80s.

i used these then, lathes with sixfoot swings and mills with
beds you could lie down on. But the cleverest thing i thought was
the temperature control, all analog.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#166497

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-04 06:44 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e40804c429ee5698a31c@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166460
In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> 
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >> 
> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >> 
> >> > In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> >> >> 
> >> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >> 
> >> >> > In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
> >> >> > says...
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
> >> >> >> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
> >> >> >> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
> >> >> >> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
> >> >> >> starting to process its input.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
> >> >> >> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
> >> >> >> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
> >> >> >> a COBOL program.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
> >> >> > with DD cards.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Yeah, but it's just an example.
> >> >> 
> >> >> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
> >> >> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
> >> >> 
> >> >> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
> >> >> 
> >> >> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
> >> >> 
> >> >> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
> >> >> for the paper tape.
> >> >
> >> > I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
> >> > somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
> >> >
> >> > I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
> >> > JCL to send output to a 2741.
> >> 
> >> Nope, you won't find that.
> >> I've done a lot of BTAM.
> >> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
> >> You just allocate the UCB.
> >> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
> >> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
> >> use the device.
> >
> > IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
> 
> Please, feel free to provide a link.
> That's the way I remember it.

http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#166518

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-04 09:45 -0400
Message-ID<nldpaf$qsd$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#166497
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> In article <nlcidj$eda$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> 
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> > In article <nlbafc$g08$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> >> 
>> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> 
>> >> > In article <nla0ga$r58$1@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> > In article <nl9p0j$3u1$2@dont-email.me>, martin@address-in-sig.invalid 
>> >> >> > says...
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:14:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> > 
>> >> >> >> > Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Yep. A common use was, if a program could accept input from cards, paper 
>> >> >> >> tape or magnetic tape, you would write it to use one of them, say cards, 
>> >> >> >> and use either console switches or a parameter card to tell it which to 
>> >> >> >> use for the next run, which would make the program patch itself before 
>> >> >> >> starting to process its input.
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> Of course its inventors thought was that this would be wonderful on small 
>> >> >> >> slow machines whose performance would be improved by removing conditional 
>> >> >> >> jumps from the main loop but was still somehow big and fast enough to run 
>> >> >> >> a COBOL program.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This sounds like a different solution to the problem that IBM addressed 
>> >> >> > with DD cards.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Yeah, but it's just an example.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> So I tried to imagine a DD card for Paper Tape, and I was
>> >> >> coming up blank.  So I took a quick look:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.13.0/com.ibm.zos.r13.idad400/d4366.htm
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> (The system no longer supports paper tape readers...)
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> I think those were BTAM devices  so, you would still need separate logic
>> >> >> for the paper tape.
>> >> >
>> >> > I've never run a paper tape on a 370 but a bit of googling suggests that 
>> >> > somewhere in there there's a "DSORG=CX,BTAM".
>> >> >
>> >> > I suspect that if I do some digging I'll find somewhere in my files the 
>> >> > JCL to send output to a 2741.
>> >> 
>> >> Nope, you won't find that.
>> >> I've done a lot of BTAM.
>> >> There is no DSORG in a DD card for BTAM.
>> >> You just allocate the UCB.
>> >> When you do an OPEN, you can query the DEVTYPE but
>> >> the OS doesn't allow the "normal" access methods to
>> >> use the device.
>> >
>> > IBM's documentation seems to disagree with you.
>> 
>> Please, feel free to provide a link.
>> That's the way I remember it.
>
> http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_
> 2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ieab600/dcbsub.htm

Looks like you are right.
Sure can't remember ever having to use that.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#166382

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
Message-ID<1142321875.489235697.604307.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166342
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 02/07/16 21:45, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 21:35:42 +0300, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2.7.16 19:26, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> cursing over lack of orthogonality when writing code for the early
>>>>>>> Intel chips and the Zilog Z80. This was almost never a problem with
>>>>>>> Motorola
>>>>> 
>>>>> I learned IBM 360 assembler in high school,
>>>>> using a genuine "green card" reference card.
>>>>> What a rich selection of instructions to do "just what I wanted"
>>>>> [half a :-) there].
>>>>> I found a valid reason to use "execute":
>>>>> execute MVC for a variable number of bytes without the overhead of all
>>>>> 'dem registers for the System/370's MVCL "Move-Characters-Long"
>>>>> instruction.
>>>> 
>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Execute is the lightest model of self-modifying code, which is a least a
>>> bad habit, if not a clear no-no.
>>> 
>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO ...
>> statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high level
>> language. I've seen it used in the past about once, in the worst-written
>> system I've ever had the misfortune to see. Apart from ALTER statements
>> it had:
>> 
>> - meaningless data names (all records and fields over 4 tape files called
>> MTnn where nn incremented in each successive line) and so on for
>> CFnn (cards), LPnn (line printer) and WSnn (working storage).
>> 
>> - no sections in PROCEDURE DIVISION, only paragraphs which all had 5
>> digit numeric names, but not in any detectable sequence or meaningful
>> order.
>> 
>> The outfit I worked for had unfortunately bought it. It was immediately
>> scrapped when  we saw the code and we wrote an equivalent but much better
>> system from scratch, but I digress....
>> 
>> ALTER was declared obsolete in COBOL 1985 and removed from the
>> specification in 2002 but apparently is still supported by some compilers.
>> 
>> 
> Sounds fun.
> 
> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> 

Yup.

-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#166351

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
Message-ID<nl9hpq$mo8$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#166333
Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> writes:

> On 2.7.16 19:26, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>> cursing over lack of orthogonality when writing code for the early
>>>>> Intel chips and the Zilog Z80. This was almost never a problem with Motorola
>>>
>>> I learned IBM 360 assembler in high school,
>>> using a genuine "green card" reference card.
>>> What a rich selection of instructions to do "just what I wanted"
>>> [half a :-) there].
>>> I found a valid reason to use "execute":
>>> execute MVC for a variable number of bytes
>>> without the overhead of all 'dem registers
>>> for the System/370's MVCL "Move-Characters-Long" instruction.
>>
>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>
> Execute is the lightest model of self-modifying code, which
> is a least a bad habit, if not a clear no-no.

I don't see how EX is self modifying code.
No code is modified at all.

> It was no accident that execute was not included in x86's. The
> main need for it was in variable-port I/O, and it was corrected
> by having I/O addressed via DX.

Huh?

Don't know about X86, but EX is not used for I/O.

Even better than EX is EXRL (Execute using a relative address instead
of base displacement.  The EXRL solves the clutter that comes from
using a label in column 1.  If you are using structured programming
macros and indentation, a label messes up everything.

Here's one way to use EXRL:

  SR   R1,R1             clear R1
  IC   R1,LEN            len of data to move
  IF   (AHI,R1,-1,NZ)    calc len - 1 for MVC and test for no move needed
    MVC  TARGET(0),SOURCE  move first byte
    EXRL R1,*-6            move all the bytes
  ENDIF ,
  
The reference to *-6 is the start of the MVC instruction so,
no label needed.

The trick is that you can safely move the first byte (TARGET(0)
overrides any length attribute TARGET might have).
There is no significant performance hit because you're
just really getting the SOURCE and TARGET fields into cache for the real move.
Another benefit is that the MVC and EXRL are right next to each other
making the code easier to read.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#166372

FromTauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 11:14 +0300
Message-ID<nlahh3$42o$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#166351
On 3.7.16 02:12, Dan Espen wrote:
> Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2.7.16 19:26, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>> cursing over lack of orthogonality when writing code for the early
>>>>>> Intel chips and the Zilog Z80. This was almost never a problem with Motorola
>>>>
>>>> I learned IBM 360 assembler in high school,
>>>> using a genuine "green card" reference card.
>>>> What a rich selection of instructions to do "just what I wanted"
>>>> [half a :-) there].
>>>> I found a valid reason to use "execute":
>>>> execute MVC for a variable number of bytes
>>>> without the overhead of all 'dem registers
>>>> for the System/370's MVCL "Move-Characters-Long" instruction.
>>>
>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>
>> Execute is the lightest model of self-modifying code, which
>> is a least a bad habit, if not a clear no-no.
>
> I don't see how EX is self modifying code.
> No code is modified at all.

It is - you do construct an instruction, and then run it.

>> It was no accident that execute was not included in x86's. The
>> main need for it was in variable-port I/O, and it was corrected
>> by having I/O addressed via DX.
>
> Huh?
>
> Don't know about X86, but EX is not used for I/O.


That's right. In 360, it was to fill in the missing possibility
to change the fixed length code in the instruction. The needed use
in 8080 derivatives was the same, but the cast-in-concrete instructions
are for I/O there.

In my vocabulary, any way of building an instruction and then
running it is self-modifying code.

The computed GOTO (indirect branch/jump) is a different can of
worms. There are perfectly legitimate uses for it, but it is
also a way to wreak havoc.

-- 

-TV

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#166380

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-03 12:04 +0100
Message-ID<nlarfg$q67$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#166372
On 03/07/16 09:14, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> On 3.7.16 02:12, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2.7.16 19:26, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> cursing over lack of orthogonality when writing code for the early
>>>>>>> Intel chips and the Zilog Z80. This was almost never a problem
>>>>>>> with Motorola
>>>>>
>>>>> I learned IBM 360 assembler in high school,
>>>>> using a genuine "green card" reference card.
>>>>> What a rich selection of instructions to do "just what I wanted"
>>>>> [half a :-) there].
>>>>> I found a valid reason to use "execute":
>>>>> execute MVC for a variable number of bytes
>>>>> without the overhead of all 'dem registers
>>>>> for the System/370's MVCL "Move-Characters-Long" instruction.
>>>>
>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>
>>> Execute is the lightest model of self-modifying code, which
>>> is a least a bad habit, if not a clear no-no.
>>
>> I don't see how EX is self modifying code.
>> No code is modified at all.
>
> It is - you do construct an instruction, and then run it.
>
>>> It was no accident that execute was not included in x86's. The
>>> main need for it was in variable-port I/O, and it was corrected
>>> by having I/O addressed via DX.
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Don't know about X86, but EX is not used for I/O.
>
>
> That's right. In 360, it was to fill in the missing possibility
> to change the fixed length code in the instruction. The needed use
> in 8080 derivatives was the same, but the cast-in-concrete instructions
> are for I/O there.
>
> In my vocabulary, any way of building an instruction and then
> running it is self-modifying code.
>

MMm. well lets say you construct a CALL TABLE or  JUMP TABLE
...and modify the contents.

or even have the power to write to the PC stack ...

you don't need explicit machine instructions to effect self modifiable code.

And indeed as multitasking scheduler is in a sense self modifying code.

Effect an interruption, save the context, switch the stack pointer, 
restore new context and IRET.


> The computed GOTO (indirect branch/jump) is a different can of
> worms. There are perfectly legitimate uses for it, but it is
> also a way to wreak havoc.
>
Anything that is useful is also hazardous



-- 
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a 
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, 
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer 
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to 
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

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#166404

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-07-03 07:49 -0700
Message-ID<87oa6eeq00.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#166380
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> MMm. well lets say you construct a CALL TABLE or  JUMP TABLE
> ...and modify the contents.
>
> or even have the power to write to the PC stack ...
>
> you don't need explicit machine instructions to effect self modifiable code.
>
> And indeed as multitasking scheduler is in a sense self modifying code.
>
> Effect an interruption, save the context, switch the stack pointer,
> restore new context and IRET.

performance issue shows up in machines that prefetch and decode a block
of instructions ... where instruction modified may have already been
fetched and decoded. also shows up in machines with separate I&D caches
where I-cache is assumed to be read/only ... and storage modifications
only show up as D-cache (I-cache issues similar to I-stream having
already fetched and decode instruction before modification occurs).

recent (Boyd) thread with post about having done dynamic adaptive
resource management (as undergraduate in the 60s, IBM picked up and
included in CP67
https://slightlyeastofnew.com/2016/06/29/bookends/

past posts on dynamic adaptive resource management (sometimes referred
to as "fair share" because "fair share" was default resource policy
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare

Boyd posts & URLs from around the web
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#166409

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-03 11:26 -0400
Message-ID<nlbarg$g08$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#166380
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 03/07/16 09:14, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> On 3.7.16 02:12, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2.7.16 19:26, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>> Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> cursing over lack of orthogonality when writing code for the early
>>>>>>>> Intel chips and the Zilog Z80. This was almost never a problem
>>>>>>>> with Motorola
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I learned IBM 360 assembler in high school,
>>>>>> using a genuine "green card" reference card.
>>>>>> What a rich selection of instructions to do "just what I wanted"
>>>>>> [half a :-) there].
>>>>>> I found a valid reason to use "execute":
>>>>>> execute MVC for a variable number of bytes
>>>>>> without the overhead of all 'dem registers
>>>>>> for the System/370's MVCL "Move-Characters-Long" instruction.
>>>>>
>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>>
>>>> Execute is the lightest model of self-modifying code, which
>>>> is a least a bad habit, if not a clear no-no.
>>>
>>> I don't see how EX is self modifying code.
>>> No code is modified at all.
>>
>> It is - you do construct an instruction, and then run it.
>>
>>>> It was no accident that execute was not included in x86's. The
>>>> main need for it was in variable-port I/O, and it was corrected
>>>> by having I/O addressed via DX.
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> Don't know about X86, but EX is not used for I/O.
>>
>>
>> That's right. In 360, it was to fill in the missing possibility
>> to change the fixed length code in the instruction. The needed use
>> in 8080 derivatives was the same, but the cast-in-concrete instructions
>> are for I/O there.
>>
>> In my vocabulary, any way of building an instruction and then
>> running it is self-modifying code.
>>
>
> MMm. well lets say you construct a CALL TABLE or  JUMP TABLE
> ...and modify the contents.

If you change instructions and execute them, self modifying.
If you change offsets or masks and use them in an EX instruction,
not self modifying.

> or even have the power to write to the PC stack ...

Not self modifying.

> you don't need explicit machine instructions to effect self modifiable code.

?

> And indeed as multitasking scheduler is in a sense self modifying code.
> Effect an interruption, save the context, switch the stack pointer,
> restore new context and IRET.

Not by any definition I know about.

>> The computed GOTO (indirect branch/jump) is a different can of
>> worms. There are perfectly legitimate uses for it, but it is
>> also a way to wreak havoc.
>>
> Anything that is useful is also hazardous

?

-- 
Dan Espen

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#166457

Fromjeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
Date2016-07-03 21:53 -0400
Message-ID<nlcfi9$lsk$1@panix1.panix.com>
In reply to#166333
>Execute is the lightest model of self-modifying code

A polite view of EXECUTE is that it implements a
one instruction subroutine :-)

I believe self modifying code is justified
when the CPU lacks a feature
required to accomplish a necessary task.

Code obfuscation is a clever hack but not for production code.


The IBM 360's EXECUTE modified the 2nd byte of the target instruction.
For "S" (storage) format instructions,
the 2nd byte is the length as a literal.
By executing an "S" instruction,
the length was now variable from any of the general purpose registers.


Classic CPUs followed these simple cycles
- fetch an instruction from memory into the instruction register
- increment the PC (program counter)
  [the instruction could depend on the PC
  already pointing to the next instruction to fetch,
  important for PC-relative addressing]
- execute the instruction in the instruction register


Some systems hijacked the memory access to jam in an alternate instruction.
For example, Intel 8080 peripherals reply to an interrupt acknowledge
with a 1 byte RESTART instruction (RST 0 - RST 7)
to force a jump-to-subroutine to the interrupt handler
because there was no interrupt vector hardware.

Some systems allowed loading the instruction register
to jam in an instruction. It was then executed immediately,
without any memory access or program counter increment.
A few examples of that:

1) The custom CPU of the AN/ALR-66 radar warning receiver
allowed loading the ALU result directly into the instruction register.
Since it had only 1 index register, I kinda almost justified
using that for indexing other tables
without juggling the index register for every access.

It worked like this:
The instruction format for memory access (load, store)
had the address at the least significant 12 bits.
(it was a 24 bit machine).
So adding an index/offset/subscript to the instruction
(from one of the general registers)
resulted in modifying just the address,
leaving the rest of the instruction unchanged.
Put the result into the instruction register and VOILA!
Instant alternate index register!

I tested that only while I was learning the system
and NEVER PUT ANY SUCH HORROR INTO PRODUCTION!
The reason? It was impossible to debug.
There was no way to examine the result of the ALU
before it was executed because it was internal to the CPU
beyond the reach of the display panel or any logic probes.

2) Vintage computers such as the LGP-21
allowed direct access to the instruction register
via programming or the front panel,
thus "the story of Mel".

3) Microprocessor systems too cheap to have a front panel with
circuitry to read/write RAM forced the poor user to jam instructions
into the CPU (instruction fetch from switches instead from RAM)
just to read/write RAM, set PC, etc.

But that's following the fine tradition of cost reduction
used by early machines such as the Bendix G-15, LGP-30, LGP-21.
I vaguely remember how each Flexowriter keystroke
shifted 5-6 bits into the instruction register
to 'single step' execute once enough bits were accumulated.



The days of self modifying code are over
with instruction pre-fetch, pipelines, cache,
strict Harvard architecture (separate I and D memory)
and microcontrollers/SoC that run code only from flash.

That's what killed cleverness such as
running one ahead of the instruction fetch
as in this clever way to clear all memory
on an IBM 1130 with just 2 instructions.
[the IAR: Instruction Address Register is what
we now call the PC: Program Counter].

	C000  load accumulator from memory address IAR
	D000  store accumulator to memory address IAR

Then ZAP! All memory was 0xD000 (all memory was 16 bits wide).
Without any index register for *c++, how does it work?
The magic is IAR-relative addressing.

The "load accumulator" loads the accumulator
with the contents of memory at (IAR + 0): zero offset from the IAR.
Since the IAR was already incremented,
it points to the STORE instruction.

The "store accumulator" stores the accumulator
(containing the store instruction itself)
to memory at (IAR + 0).
Since the IAR was already incremented,
that is the memory location immediately AFTER the STORE instruction executing.

Lather, rinse, repeat :-)

-- jeff jonas

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#166464

FromDennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date2016-07-04 17:33 -0400
Message-ID<v6llnb12k644pn25caika59npujloaulb3@4ax.com>
In reply to#166457
On 4 Jul 2016 18:39:55 GMT, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> declaimed the
following:

>
>One of the more successful early CPUs did not have an index register, did 
>not have a stack pointer, and had no way of using the PC to access data. 
>It did have a way to do serial access to array elements.

	While the Sigma did have index capability (using registers 1-7; 0
encoded no indexing), it also supported one-level indirect addressing -- in
which the data being loaded was retrieved via an address stored at the
address in the operation. So one could work arrays via the complex of:

	LD,<scratch register>	Start_of_Array
	ADD,<scratch register>	Offset
	LD,<data register>		*<scratch register>	;* means indirect address

vs

	LD,<index register>	Offset
	LD,<data register>		Start_of_Array,<index register>

-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#166474 — Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause?

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-07-04 19:05 +0100
SubjectRe: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause?
Message-ID<20160704190518.442869a29f5586a640ecbcd4@eircom.net>
In reply to#166457
On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 16:35:44 +0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:

> >	I think there needs to be a distinction between self modifying
> >	code
> >(evil incarnate) and self extending code (quite common - think JIT
> >compilers). I've never seen a good reason for the former and in these
> >days of deep pipelines and multi-layer caching it would almost certainly
> >be a terrible thing to do from a performance perspective.
> 
> Oh, you young folks.

	Guilty as charged, barely out of my first half century.

> Self-modifying code made interesting programs possible.  Back in the
> heroic era of the 1940s and early 1950s, there were no index
> registers, no indirect addressing, just instructions.  So to add up a
> list of numbers, the program loop patched the ADD instruction to
> change the address of the location to add. It seems like a kludge now,
> but the ability for the program to modify itself was a huge advance.

	I see. Thank you I had not been aware of that stage of the
evolution of instruction sets.

> These days I agree, index registers handle most of the reasons you'd
> modify code, and computers are now fast enough that we can afford to
> do stuff the longer and clearer way.  Of course, every time you
> compile something and load the code into memory, whether JIT or an
> ordinary program fetch, that's self-modifying code in action.

	That's why I brought in the self extending concept, to my eye
there's a substantial difference between adding new code and changing the
code that's there.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#166531 — Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause?

FromJohn Levine <johnl@iecc.com>
Date2016-07-04 21:05 +0000
SubjectRe: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause?
Message-ID<nlej2r$1g8v$2@miucha.iecc.com>
In reply to#166474
>	That's why I brought in the self extending concept, to my eye
>there's a substantial difference between adding new code and changing the
>code that's there.

So how do you feel about load-time relocation of dynamically loaded code?

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#166533 — Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause?

FromBob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
SubjectRe: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause?
Message-ID<du01p7FqerU10@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#166531
On Mon, 04 Jul 2016 21:05:31 +0000, John Levine wrote:

>>	That's why I brought in the self extending concept, to my eye
>>there's a substantial difference between adding new code and changing
>>the code that's there.
> 
> So how do you feel about load-time relocation of dynamically loaded
> code?

WARNING: Do not argue with John about this. Well, not until you've read 
his book!
-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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