Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #161395 > unrolled thread

Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

Started by	Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com>
First post	2016-03-23 02:31 -0700
Last post	2016-03-30 14:56 +0100
Articles	20 on this page of 401 — 44 participants

Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers

Page 3 of 21 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 … 21 Next page →

#161936

From	Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com>
Date	2016-04-03 19:28 -0400
Message-ID	<proto-2E7884.19285203042016@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#161577

In article <fd704521-012a-4bdc-acec-c83269e46c4e@googlegroups.com>,
 sigma.research@gmail.com wrote:

> Many might disagree, but APL is an
> excellent language to start with. It was
> the first language i sank my teeth into.
> Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
> There are a few free versions out there.
> 
> -- William Gallant

Perhaps, but it's an opposite of COBOL. APL
IS a write only language, and COBOL is a read
only language.

-- 
 To terrify children with the image of hell,
 to consider women an inferior creation is that good for the world?  
  Christopher Hitchens

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161946

From	"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date	2016-04-03 20:23 -0400
Message-ID	<MPG.316b7e21d2f1804798a07a@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161936

In article <proto-2E7884.19285203042016@news.panix.com>, proto@panix.com 
says...
> 
> In article <fd704521-012a-4bdc-acec-c83269e46c4e@googlegroups.com>,
>  sigma.research@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > Many might disagree, but APL is an
> > excellent language to start with. It was
> > the first language i sank my teeth into.
> > Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
> > There are a few free versions out there.
> > 
> > -- William Gallant
> 
> Perhaps, but it's an opposite of COBOL. APL
> IS a write only language, and COBOL is a read
> only language.

Part of my job is deciphering APL programs that somebody else wrote.  
They are in general poorly documented if at all, and comments are few 
and far between.  I find that the notion that it is "write-only" is 
rather misleading--it's fairly easy to figure out what's going on in an 
APL expression, the hard part is figuring out why it's doing it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161587

From	Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date	2016-03-29 17:14 +0000
Message-ID	<nded5p01388@news3.newsguy.com>
In reply to	#161568

On 2016-03-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> 	The one problem with Knuth is that you've probably had it on your
> shelf for those nearly 40 years - there have been a few new twists on
> algorithms and data structures in the meantime, and rather less need for
> sort/merge that won't fit in online storage than there used to be.

Still, a lot of people could benefit from learning the things about
sorting and merging that we took for granted way back when.  Most people
don't know nearly enough about them - I place a lot of the blame for this
on the shenanigans that Excel has played with people's data.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161618

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2016-03-30 06:55 +0100
Message-ID	<20160330065507.6eacbe72e757cd7cddedc07e@eircom.net>
In reply to	#161587

On 29 Mar 2016 17:14:33 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2016-03-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
> > 	The one problem with Knuth is that you've probably had it on
> > your shelf for those nearly 40 years - there have been a few new twists
> > on algorithms and data structures in the meantime, and rather less need
> > for sort/merge that won't fit in online storage than there used to be.
> 
> Still, a lot of people could benefit from learning the things about
> sorting and merging that we took for granted way back when.  Most people

	Yes - although the techniques for handling sort/merge with n tape
drives and m tapes is perhaps a little esoteric these days.

> don't know nearly enough about them - I place a lot of the blame for this
> on the shenanigans that Excel has played with people's data.

	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do with
a grounding in basic computer science.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161688 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
Date	2016-03-31 03:10 -0300
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to	#161618

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> 	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do with
> a grounding in basic computer science.

It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.  

Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
"simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

-- 
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~. 
                                                           /V\ 
                                                          /( )\
                                                          ^^-^^

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161690 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date	2016-03-31 06:40 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<ndigpd02elj@news4.newsguy.com>
In reply to	#161688

On 2016-03-31, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:

> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
> to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
> same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
> an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161692 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2016-03-31 08:17 +0100
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<20160331081704.70a48b31f72ddf5d5c6847c1@eircom.net>
In reply to	#161690

On 31 Mar 2016 06:40:45 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2016-03-31, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
> > about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
> > to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
> > "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
> > same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
> > an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
> > preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
> 
> That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
> science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
> Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.

	OTOH I spent a year getting a grounding in basic computer science
and learned a lot that has proved useful over the years (and quite a lot
that hasn't). I also dropped out, but that wasn't down to the course or a
desire to get out into the real world - there was a woman and a breakup. It
was just as well that I already had experience on projects people had heard
of by the time I left college.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161703 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date	2016-03-31 10:40 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<dm4d55FflomU22@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#161692

On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 08:17:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 31 Mar 2016 06:40:45 GMT Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 2016-03-31, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> > Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> > about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>> > appalled to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>> > "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at
>> > the same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines
>> > were an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent
>> > the preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer
>> > science."
>> 
>> That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
>> science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
>> Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.
> 
> 	OTOH I spent a year getting a grounding in basic computer science
> and learned a lot that has proved useful over the years (and quite a lot
> that hasn't). I also dropped out, but that wasn't down to the course or
> a desire to get out into the real world - there was a woman and a
> breakup. It was just as well that I already had experience on projects
> people had heard of by the time I left college.

This is why we had a Year in Industry programme. Real experience in real 
jobs.

100% graduate employment.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161704 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2016-03-31 12:17 +0100
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<20160331121720.fc0bde4ecef0db31f8ea5c3f@eircom.net>
In reply to	#161703

On 31 Mar 2016 10:40:37 GMT
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 08:17:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> 
> > 	OTOH I spent a year getting a grounding in basic computer
> > science and learned a lot that has proved useful over the years (and
> > quite a lot that hasn't). I also dropped out, but that wasn't down to
> > the course or a desire to get out into the real world - there was a
> > woman and a breakup. It was just as well that I already had experience
> > on projects people had heard of by the time I left college.
> 
> This is why we had a Year in Industry programme. Real experience in real 
> jobs.

	That's a good thing to have, I got my experience doing vac work. In
Cambridge circa 1980 there was plenty of interesting vac work for anyone
who could code and/or wield a soldering iron. I spent a day walking round
town knocking on doors to wind up on the Newbrain project. These days
things are not that easy and something more formal is needed, I was lucky.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161705 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date	2016-03-31 11:40 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<dm4gkuFflomU24@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#161704

On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:17:20 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 31 Mar 2016 10:40:37 GMT Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 08:17:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> 
>> > 	OTOH I spent a year getting a grounding in basic computer
>> > science and learned a lot that has proved useful over the years (and
>> > quite a lot that hasn't). I also dropped out, but that wasn't down to
>> > the course or a desire to get out into the real world - there was a
>> > woman and a breakup. It was just as well that I already had
>> > experience on projects people had heard of by the time I left
>> > college.
>> 
>> This is why we had a Year in Industry programme. Real experience in
>> real jobs.
> 
> 	That's a good thing to have, I got my experience doing vac work. 
In
> Cambridge circa 1980 there was plenty of interesting vac work for anyone
> who could code and/or wield a soldering iron. I spent a day walking
> round town knocking on doors to wind up on the Newbrain project. These
> days things are not that easy and something more formal is needed, I was
> lucky.

One year we had 21 students working for Cisco. In San Jose. Also Intel, 
Microsoft, HP, IBM, Pfizer, Lilly, GSK, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, JP 
Morgan, and lots of smaller ones. Highest salary for a placement student 
was...wait for it...£57k.




-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161706 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2016-03-31 13:28 +0100
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<20160331132832.4d5c390cfeca51f1b76dc0a1@eircom.net>
In reply to	#161705

On 31 Mar 2016 11:40:14 GMT
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

> One year we had 21 students working for Cisco. In San Jose. Also Intel, 
> Microsoft, HP, IBM, Pfizer, Lilly, GSK, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, JP 
> Morgan, and lots of smaller ones. Highest salary for a placement student 
> was...wait for it...£57k.

	Now there's a jammy git - presumably a talented jammy git. I got £5
an hour and was delighted.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161833 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date	2016-04-02 12:56 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<b17bd02d-98f2-48a7-89dd-a661e4cfdab0@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#161703

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 6:40:38 AM UTC-4, Bob Eager wrote:

> This is why we had a Year in Industry programme. Real experience in real 
> jobs.

Such programs have mixed results.  Some students do indeed get
excellent real-world experience.  But often, there are more students
than jobs available, and some students end up on low-level jobs where
they don't learn very much.  Working in a computer room mounting
tapes is good experience, but spending a whole work period doing so
is a waste of time.  Likewise, working as a bookkeeper or receptionist
is good for about a week, but a waste of time for a compsci major.

> 100% graduate employment.

Yes, generally prior industry experience looks a lot better on a
resume than say a clerk in a clothing store or being a lifeguard
when a kid graduates college.

However, future opportunities depend on how well the graduate sells
him or herself.  For a compsci to say merely "sold clothes" isn't
very impressive, but if the graduate is knowledgeable about the
computerized point-of-sale system* and can talk about that, he will
look better to a prospective employer.

*I should note that some employers emphatically do not like their
low level workers asking too many questions, especially about
sales or computer systems.  They get paranoid about security.
Many employers expect their low level people to do their specific
job and only their specific job.  Unfortunately, kids who end up
in that kind of job learn little and have nothing to show for it.
If at all possible, kids should avoid that situation.  But, as said,
sometimes co-op jobs are hard to find.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161843 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date	2016-04-02 21:14 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<dmar29FflomU39@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#161833

On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 12:56:22 -0700, hancock4 wrote:

> On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 6:40:38 AM UTC-4, Bob Eager wrote:
> 
>> This is why we had a Year in Industry programme. Real experience in
>> real jobs.
> 
> Such programs have mixed results.  Some students do indeed get excellent
> real-world experience.  But often, there are more students than jobs
> available, and some students end up on low-level jobs where they don't
> learn very much.  Working in a computer room mounting tapes is good
> experience, but spending a whole work period doing so is a waste of
> time.  Likewise, working as a bookkeeper or receptionist is good for
> about a week, but a waste of time for a compsci major.

That depends on the quality of the placement operation. It was my job to 
moderate the results, and after the first couple of years we had weeded 
out such employers.

Current placements run at about 80% of our total intake, with the rest 
not wanting a placement.



> 
> 
>> 100% graduate employment.
> 
> Yes, generally prior industry experience looks a lot better on a resume
> than say a clerk in a clothing store or being a lifeguard when a kid
> graduates college.
> 
> However, future opportunities depend on how well the graduate sells him
> or herself.  For a compsci to say merely "sold clothes" isn't very
> impressive, but if the graduate is knowledgeable about the computerized
> point-of-sale system* and can talk about that, he will look better to a
> prospective employer.
> 
> 
> *I should note that some employers emphatically do not like their low
> level workers asking too many questions, especially about sales or
> computer systems.  They get paranoid about security.
> Many employers expect their low level people to do their specific job
> and only their specific job.  Unfortunately, kids who end up in that
> kind of job learn little and have nothing to show for it.
> If at all possible, kids should avoid that situation.  But, as said,
> sometimes co-op jobs are hard to find.





-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161830 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date	2016-04-02 12:31 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<254ce0f3-37d6-434d-ac5b-082c2dddcecd@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#161690

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 2:41:56 AM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
> science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
> Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.

A good book on the history of programming discussed that issue.
Back in the 1960s and 1970s there was a serious shortage of
programmers.  Colleges had compsci courses, but the training
was not what industry needed.  Further, industry learned that
hiring a college compsci professor as a consultant had weaknesses,
as their approach could be very esoteric and not related to solving
the actual problem efficiently.

My college offered a course in APL, which was basically worthless.
But it did not offer anything in S/360 JCL or S/360 assembler,
which would've been helpful.

It is important to note that in the business world, many programmers
came up through the ranks of computer operators or tabulating
machine operators.  Advanced tab machine operators, who knew how
to wire boards, already understood the basic concepts of information
processing for business.  The earliest programs basically mimicked
a tabulating machine.

Also, in the 1970s, many community colleges began to offer courses
in programming, oriented toward practical skills.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161840 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date	2016-04-02 16:38 -0400
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<MPG.3169f7bdd5f8e97698a05e@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161830

In article <254ce0f3-37d6-434d-ac5b-082c2dddcecd@googlegroups.com>, 
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> 
> On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 2:41:56 AM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
> > That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
> > science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
> > Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.
> 
> A good book on the history of programming discussed that issue.
> Back in the 1960s and 1970s there was a serious shortage of
> programmers.  Colleges had compsci courses, but the training
> was not what industry needed.  Further, industry learned that
> hiring a college compsci professor as a consultant had weaknesses,
> as their approach could be very esoteric and not related to solving
> the actual problem efficiently.
> 
> My college offered a course in APL, which was basically worthless.

For certain values.  I got my current job mostly on the basis of such a 
course taken 40 years ago, and dinking around with it since.  If you 
wanted to go into quantitative work it could be a major door opener.  
STSC was pushing it hard then--they subsidized its use at many 
universities and provided "circuit riders" whose job was near as I could 
tell mostly to encourage its use.

> But it did not offer anything in S/360 JCL or S/360 assembler,
> which would've been helpful.

We also got 360 Assembler.  No JCL though.
 
> It is important to note that in the business world, many programmers
> came up through the ranks of computer operators or tabulating
> machine operators.  Advanced tab machine operators, who knew how
> to wire boards, already understood the basic concepts of information
> processing for business.  The earliest programs basically mimicked
> a tabulating machine.
> 
> Also, in the 1970s, many community colleges began to offer courses
> in programming, oriented toward practical skills.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161848

From	Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date	2016-04-02 20:09 -0400
Message-ID	<1248818789.481320071.003585.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161830

<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 2:41:56 AM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> 
>> That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
>> science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
>> Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.
> 
> A good book on the history of programming discussed that issue.
> Back in the 1960s and 1970s there was a serious shortage of
> programmers.  Colleges had compsci courses, but the training
> was not what industry needed.  

I went the other way - I worked in the "real world" for a few years and
then got a CS degree part time (and paid for :-)  A lot of what I learned
was useful, and I still use some of that knowledge.

Further, industry learned that
> hiring a college compsci professor as a consultant had weaknesses,
> as their approach could be very esoteric and not related to solving
> the actual problem efficiently.
> 
> My college offered a course in APL, which was basically worthless.

That depends.  If you're doing analysis it would be useful.

> But it did not offer anything in S/360 JCL or S/360 assembler,
> which would've been helpful.

Our local community colleges offered this at the time, plus courses in
CICS. (as you mention below)  Most of these graduates got god jobs after
graduation.

> 
> It is important to note that in the business world, many programmers
> came up through the ranks of computer operators or tabulating
> machine operators.  

Even back in the mid 60s we looked on these as the "old guys", who didn't
understand "modern" 360s or "current" languages like COBOL. 

Advanced tab machine operators, who knew how
> to wire boards, already understood the basic concepts of information
> processing for business.  The earliest programs basically mimicked
> a tabulating machine.
> 
> Also, in the 1970s, many community colleges began to offer courses
> in programming, oriented toward practical skills.
> 
> 



-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161931 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
Date	2016-04-03 19:25 -0300
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<87egam2uub.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to	#161830

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> A good book on the history of programming discussed that issue.
> Back in the 1960s and 1970s there was a serious shortage of
> programmers.  Colleges had compsci courses, but the training
> was not what industry needed.

Circa 1964 I signed up for a "Computer Programming" course.  The
professor was seconded for a year from industry.  He immediately
started in with a textbook on numerical methods.  About 3/4 of the
class rebelled, demanding to be taught how to write programs, not just
background math.  The prof said, "But you can't write a decent program
if you don't know this stuff!"

But when nearly all of us proposed to drop the course the next day if
we didn't learn how to write programs, he grumpily switched over to
some version of Fortran and each of us wrote a simple program
applicable each to our major.  Punched on cards and run through the
IBM 1620. My last contact with a computer for 16 years.

> Further, industry learned that hiring a college compsci professor as
> a consultant had weaknesses, as their approach could be very
> esoteric and not related to solving the actual problem efficiently.

In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
we'uns kids on practical stuff.  But no numerical sophistication was
needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.

> It is important to note that in the business world, many programmers
> came up through the ranks of computer operators or tabulating
> machine operators.  Advanced tab machine operators, who knew how
> to wire boards, already understood the basic concepts of information
> processing for business.  The earliest programs basically mimicked
> a tabulating machine.

Ha.  Interesting.

> Also, in the 1970s, many community colleges began to offer courses
> in programming, oriented toward practical skills.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161957 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net>
Date	2016-04-03 20:09 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<ijm3gbddujqkvct401jfcg3fnh8hmaa08v@4ax.com>
In reply to	#161931

On 03 Apr 2016 19:25:32 -0300, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
wrote:

[snip]

>In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
>we'uns kids on practical stuff.  But no numerical sophistication was

     No, he was keen on the long term, and you students only on the
short term.

>needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
>learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.

     Good theory is very practical.

     Precision issues can bite very hard in such areas as statistics.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161975 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date	2016-04-04 05:44 -0400
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<MPG.316c01a0d5cbfda898a07f@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161957

In article <ijm3gbddujqkvct401jfcg3fnh8hmaa08v@4ax.com>, genew@telus.net 
says...
> 
> On 03 Apr 2016 19:25:32 -0300, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
> >we'uns kids on practical stuff.  But no numerical sophistication was
> 
>      No, he was keen on the long term, and you students only on the
> short term.

No, he was keen on what he perceived to be important, and not on what 
the class was all about.  If you are planning to become an analytical 
engineer or physicist numerical methods are necessary and useful.  If 
you are designing web sites not so much.

The kids were paying to learn code, not numerical methods.  If the guy 
wanted to teach a numerical methods class then that's what he should 
have taught.

> >needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
> >learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.
> 
>      Good theory is very practical.
> 
>      Precision issues can bite very hard in such areas as statistics.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Wirchenko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161984

From	Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date	2016-04-04 09:10 -0400
Message-ID	<1537677862.481465302.315129.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161957

Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> wrote:
> On 03 Apr 2016 19:25:32 -0300, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
>> we'uns kids on practical stuff.  But no numerical sophistication was
> 
>      No, he was keen on the long term, and you students only on the
> short term.

I agree with the students, but I like to work from the practical to the
theoretical.  When I'm trying to understand something I start with a small
program and make it progressively more complicated.  In this case you'd
start with a program and then work on understanding the theory underlying
it. YMMV.

> 
>> needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
>> learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.
> 
>      Good theory is very practical.
> 
>      Precision issues can bite very hard in such areas as statistics.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Wirchenko
> 

-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 3 of 21 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 … 21 Next page →

csiph-web

Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

Contents

#161936

#161946

#161587

#161618

#161688 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161690 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161692 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161703 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161704 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161705 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161706 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161833 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161843 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161830 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161840 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161848

#161931 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161957 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161975 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161984