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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #155734 > unrolled thread

I Feel Old

Started byQuadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
First post2016-01-01 10:49 -0800
Last post2016-01-03 17:11 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 320 — 37 participants

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Contents

  I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-01 10:49 -0800
    Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-01 13:33 -0600
      Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-01 12:05 -0800
        Re: I Feel Old Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-02 04:41 -0400
          Re: I Feel Old "Joe Morris" <j.c.morris@verizon.net> - 2016-01-02 11:50 -0500
            Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-02 17:14 +0000
            Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-02 17:36 -0800
              Re: I Feel Old John Garza <john@127.0.0.1> - 2016-01-03 08:07 -0600
                Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 15:06 +0000
                  Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-03 11:05 -0500
                    Re: I Feel Old Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-03 17:59 +0000
                    Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 18:08 +0000
                  Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 06:44 -0500
                    Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-04 12:24 +0000
                Re: I Feel Old Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-03 09:45 -0600
                  Re: I Feel Old Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2016-01-03 13:12 -0700
                    Re: I Feel Old Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-03 16:56 -0500
                      Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-03 14:27 -0800
                Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-03 23:53 +0000
                Re: I Feel Old John Garza <john@127.0.0.1> - 2016-01-04 07:42 -0600
                  Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-04 14:32 +0000
                    Re: I Feel Old Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-04 16:55 +0000
                  Re: I Feel Old Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-04 11:41 -0500
              Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-03 17:37 +0100
              Re: I Feel Old Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2016-01-03 13:11 -0700
                Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-04 07:48 -0800
                  Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-04 16:01 +0000
                  Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-04 16:23 +0000
              Re: I Feel Old Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-03 17:30 -0400
        Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-04 14:55 -0600
          Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-04 13:15 -0800
            Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-05 14:59 -0600
              Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-05 13:31 -0800
              Re: I Feel Old Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-05 22:11 -0600
          Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-04 17:07 -0800
        Re: I Feel Old philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2016-01-06 19:21 -0600
    Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-01 21:33 +0000
      Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-01 22:52 +0000
      Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-01 15:57 -0800
        Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-01 20:52 -0800
          Re: I Feel Old Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-02 00:45 -0500
          Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-02 06:40 +0000
            Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-02 17:25 -0800
              Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 08:18 +0000
              Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-03 07:26 -0500
                Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-04 07:34 -0800
          Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-02 14:27 +0000
            Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-02 17:28 -0800
              Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-02 19:56 -0600
                Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-03 07:26 -0500
                  Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-03 10:00 -0800
                    Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-17 08:48 -0800
                  Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-04 07:44 -0800
                    Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-04 13:42 -0600
                      Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-05 11:15 -0800
                        Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-06 11:27 -0600
                          Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-06 12:02 -0600
                            Re: I Feel Old scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-06 18:52 +0000
                            Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-06 18:06 -0600
                              Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-07 12:04 -0500
                              Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-07 09:22 -0800
                                Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-13 15:55 -0600
                              Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-07 09:36 -0800
                                Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-07 17:47 +0000
                                  Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-07 18:47 -0600
                                Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-07 19:23 -0600
                                  Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-08 10:58 +0100
                                    Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-08 06:37 -0500
                                      Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-08 15:53 +0100
                                        Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-08 11:26 -0600
                                          Re: I Feel Old "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-09 09:53 +1100
                                            Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-09 11:24 +0100
                                              Re: I Feel Old "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 06:06 +1100
                                        Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-08 10:13 -0800
                                      Re: I Feel Old Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-08 17:42 +0000
                                        Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-09 07:30 -0500
                                          Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-09 07:07 -0600
                                            Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-09 11:55 -0800
                                            Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-09 15:40 -0600
                                          Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-10 06:13 +1100
                                            Re: I Feel Old Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-09 13:36 -0600
                                              Re: I Feel Old Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-09 15:30 -0600
                                    Re: I Feel Old Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-08 10:43 -0500
                                      Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-08 10:33 -0600
                                        Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-08 10:46 -0800
                                    Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-08 10:59 -0600
                                      Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-08 10:44 -0800
                                        Re: I Feel Old Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-08 22:53 +0000
                                          Re: I Feel Old "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-09 12:53 +1100
                                            Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-09 11:29 +0100
                                          Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-09 11:26 +0100
                                        Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-12 16:22 -0600
                                          Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-13 10:03 +1100
                                          Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-12 21:01 -0600
                                            Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-13 14:22 +1100
                                          Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-13 10:14 -0800
                                            Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-13 18:51 +0000
                                              Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-14 07:02 +1100
                                            Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-13 13:06 -0600
                                      Re: I Feel Old "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-09 09:51 +1100
                                    Re: I Feel Old "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-09 06:01 +1100
                                    Re: I Feel Old Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-08 13:21 -0600
                                      Re: I Feel Old scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-08 20:58 +0000
                                        Re: I Feel Old "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2016-01-08 20:36 -0800
                                          Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-09 11:31 +0100
                                          Re: I Feel Old Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-01-09 18:33 -0600
                                        Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-09 07:30 -0500
                                          Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-09 12:59 +0000
                                            Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-09 15:31 -0600
                                              Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-09 17:22 -0500
                                                Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-09 17:07 -0800
                                              Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-10 11:25 -0800
                                                Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-11 17:08 -0600
                                                  Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 07:43 -0800
                                                    Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-12 08:44 -0800
                                                      Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 09:52 -0800
                                                        Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-12 12:28 -0600
                                                          Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 10:58 -0800
                                                            Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-12 14:49 -0600
                                                              Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 13:57 -0800
                                                                Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 18:19 -0500
                                                                Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-12 17:37 -0800
                                                    Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-12 18:46 -0800
                                  Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-08 16:08 +0000
                                    Re: I Feel Old Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-01-09 18:38 -0600
                                      Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-09 21:43 -0600
                                        Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-09 22:56 -0600
                                          Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-11 23:49 -0600
                                            Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 07:46 -0800
                                            Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-12 11:28 -0500
                                              Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-12 14:58 -0600
                                                Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 14:01 -0800
                                                  Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-12 16:42 -0600
                                                Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-12 22:07 +0000
                                  Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-08 10:36 -0800
                                    Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-09 05:04 -0500
                                      Re: I Feel Old scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-11 14:48 +0000
                                        Re: I Feel Old Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-11 17:28 +0000
                                        Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-11 19:01 -0500
                                    Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-09 07:30 -0500
                                    Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-09 16:59 -0600
                              Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-07 13:13 -0600
                                Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-07 18:55 -0600
                                  Re: I Feel Old Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-08 17:40 +0000
                                    Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-08 23:20 +0000
                Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-04 07:29 -0800
                  Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-04 18:30 +0100
                    Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-04 10:59 -0800
                      Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-04 19:48 -0600
                        Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-05 06:27 -0800
                          Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-05 16:26 +0000
                          Re: I Feel Old Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-05 12:27 -0600
                            Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-05 11:08 -0800
                    Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-04 13:14 -0600
                      Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-04 14:43 -0600
                        Re: I Feel Old Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-04 22:38 +0000
                        Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-12 17:47 -0600
                          Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-13 01:27 +0100
                            Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-13 11:18 -0600
                              Re: I Feel Old Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-01-13 19:05 -0600
                                Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-13 20:22 -0600
                                  Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-14 14:09 -0600
                                    Re: I Feel Old jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-15 14:51 +0000
                                      Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-15 09:48 -0600
                                        Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-15 17:26 +0100
                                          Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-15 13:19 -0600
                                      Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-15 09:20 -0800
                                      Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-15 17:44 +0000
                                        Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-15 12:57 -0600
                                          Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:42 -0800
                                            Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 15:27 -0600
                                        Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-15 19:15 +0100
                                          Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-15 13:44 -0600
                                            Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-15 15:02 -0600
                                              Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-16 08:58 +1100
                                              Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-15 23:51 +0100
                                                Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-17 16:01 -0600
                                              Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-15 17:11 -0600
                                              Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-16 08:03 -0500
                                                Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-16 08:29 -0600
                                                  Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 03:38 +1100
                                                  Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-16 15:32 -0500
                                                    Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-16 16:59 -0600
                                                  Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-16 16:45 -0600
                                                    Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 02:11 +0000
                                                      Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 14:02 +1100
                                                        Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:22 +0000
                                                          Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:09 +1100
                                                          Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-17 15:00 -0600
                                                            Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-18 03:59 +0000
                                                  Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-16 16:15 +0100
                                                    Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-17 11:39 +0000
                                                      Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:41 +1100
                                                Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-16 16:33 +0000
                                                  Re: I Feel Old "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-16 11:19 -0600
                                                    Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-16 18:36 +0000
                                                    Re: I Feel Old Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-16 17:23 -0500
                                                  Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 13:01 -0500
                                                    Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-16 20:55 +0000
                                                      Re: I Feel Old Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-16 14:53 -0800
                                                        Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 05:43 +0000
                                                      Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 19:50 -0500
                                                      Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                                                        Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:33 +0000
                                                          Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 15:19 +0000
                                                            Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 19:27 +0000
                                                        Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 15:00 +0000
                                                  Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-16 15:32 -0500
                                                    Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-16 22:49 -0600
                                                      Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 16:12 +1100
                                                    Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-17 11:32 +0000
                                                      Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 12:06 +0000
                                                        Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                                                          Re: I Feel Old Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-17 10:05 -0500
                                                      Re: I Feel Old jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-17 15:26 +0000
                                                        Re: I Feel Old "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 05:14 +1100
                                                  Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-17 15:38 -0600
                                          Re: I Feel Old jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-16 14:09 +0000
                                            Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-16 15:19 +0100
                                        Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-15 19:29 +0000
                                          Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-15 14:25 -0800
                                Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-14 13:46 +1100
                                Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-14 05:17 +0100
                                Re: I Feel Old Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-14 13:11 -0600
                      Re: I Feel Old Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-04 22:37 +0000
                        Re: I Feel Old Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-05 04:44 -0400
                          Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:46 +0000
                        Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-05 11:06 +0000
                          Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 18:46 +0000
                  Re: I Feel Old Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-04 17:04 -0600
                  Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-04 17:36 -0800
        Re: I Feel Old jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-02 15:01 +0000
          Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-02 15:58 +0000
            Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 06:40 -0500
              Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-04 12:31 +0000
                Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 22:06 -0500
          Re: I Feel Old "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 07:09 +1100
        Re: I Feel Old Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-01-03 12:11 -0500
          Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-03 20:42 -0800
            Re: I Feel Old "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-04 16:43 +1100
            Re: I Feel Old Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-01-05 22:05 -0500
          Re: I Feel Old Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-04 18:21 +0100
            Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-04 17:47 +0000
            Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-04 16:10 -0500
              Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-04 13:26 -0800
                Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-04 21:57 -0500
            Re: I Feel Old Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 19:46 -0500
              Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-07 12:04 -0500
                Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-07 17:36 +0000
                Re: I Feel Old Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-07 13:43 -0600
                  Re: I Feel Old "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-08 15:35 +1100
                    Re: I Feel Old Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-08 00:15 -0600
                      Re: I Feel Old "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-08 19:41 +1100
                Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-07 12:44 -0800
                  Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-07 21:32 +0000
        Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-05 14:51 -0600
          Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-05 12:59 -0800
            Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 22:17 +0000
              Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-08 14:35 -0600
          Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-05 22:17 +0000
            Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-05 19:24 -0500
              Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-05 17:31 -0800
                Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-06 07:38 +0000
                  Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 06:50 -0500
                    Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-06 13:26 +0000
                      Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-06 05:49 -0800
                        Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-06 14:32 +0000
                          Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-06 07:13 -0800
                            Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-06 16:08 +0000
                            Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-08 14:39 -0600
                          Re: I Feel Old Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-01-06 09:14 -0600
                          Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-06 10:22 -0500
                          Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-15 17:45 -0600
                        Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 18:42 -0500
                      Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-06 14:20 +0000
                        Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-06 14:34 +0000
                          Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-06 19:52 +0000
                            Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-06 12:35 -0800
                            Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-06 20:54 +0000
                        Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 18:44 -0500
                          Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-06 23:48 +0000
                            Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 19:38 -0500
                              Re: I Feel Old Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-07 07:46 +0000
                                Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-07 06:44 -0500
                                  Re: I Feel Old Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-09 21:47 -0800
                                    Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-10 05:45 -0500
                                  Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-10 12:18 +0000
                                    Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-10 08:12 -0500
                                      Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-10 13:40 +0000
                              Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-07 12:04 -0500
                            Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-07 08:15 +0000
                  Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-06 05:48 -0800
                Re: I Feel Old Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-06 11:29 -0500
                Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-06 10:20 -0800
              Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-05 20:52 -0500
                Re: I Feel Old Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-06 06:54 -0500
                  Re: I Feel Old Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-06 11:34 -0500
                    Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 18:40 -0500
                  Re: I Feel Old "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-06 18:39 -0500
                Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-06 10:22 -0800
                Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-15 17:43 -0600
                  Re: I Feel Old JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:13 -0600
            Re: I Feel Old Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-06 11:26 -0500
            Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-08 14:37 -0600
              Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-08 23:25 +0000
      Re: I Feel Old Freddy1 <something@something.com> - 2016-01-02 21:35 -0500
        Re: I Feel Old Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-03 05:34 +0000
        Re: I Feel Old Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-03 08:33 +0000
          Re: I Feel Old Freddy1 <something@something.com> - 2016-01-03 15:17 -0500
          Re: I Feel Old Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-03 20:52 -0800
            Re: I Feel Old Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-04 05:09 -0800
              Re: I Feel Old "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-05 14:57 -0600
    Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-01 20:46 -0800
      Re: I Feel Old Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-01-02 07:00 +0000
        Re: I Feel Old Louis Krupp <lkrupp@nospam.pssw.com.invalid> - 2016-01-02 01:44 -0700
        Re: I Feel Old hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-02 13:46 -0800
      Re: I Feel Old Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-02 09:11 -0800
    Re: I Feel Old Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-02 11:49 -0600
    Re: I Feel Old John Garza <john@127.0.0.1> - 2016-01-03 08:14 -0600
      Re: I Feel Old mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-03 17:11 +0000

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#156712

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-01-15 14:25 -0800
Message-ID<87h9ie4h11.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#156701
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> 	That I believe is the 'trust' part of the whole thing, if you're
> not going to manage it personally then you have to trust someone to do it.
> Trusts have been around for a long time, abuses are rare enough to make
> news.

wallstreet is somewhat conflicted ... large pension funds make very
profitable targets ... like the multi-billion dollar triple-A rated
toxic CDOs .. really big scores with either ignorant managers or those
that could be bribed
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#toxic.cdo

.... but the move to 401Ks was also pushed because individuals could be
taken advantage of (401Ks sold as under your own control ... but
extremely rare that individual beats professional manager) ... including
not being able to negotiate better management fees .... move from large
pension to individual 401Ks ... significantly increased fees per dollar
managed .... possibly different factions on wallstreet looting
retirement funds in different ways.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#156624

From"jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com>
Date2016-01-14 13:46 +1100
Message-ID<dfogg6FdjueU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#156612

"Lawrence Statton" <lawrence@senguio.mx> wrote in message 
news:87pox5nf62.fsf@redbull.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me...
> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>>
>>> There are, in most places, also clear limits to how much of the fund
>>> payment that can go to buy the company shares; with limits on the
>>> order of 15% or so.
>>
>> Even that is questionable to me; if your employer goes bankrupt, it's
>> bad enough that you lose your income, but also 15% of your pension?
>>
>
> This is a case where a neutral fund manager would be to your
> advantage -- if you work for ReallyStableCorp (I would like to think of
> an example from today, but I can't)

The most obvious example is Microsoft.

Not Apple tho, it came within an ace of going bankrupt.

> having 15% in your own company might
> actually be a perfectly reasonable risk.

Yes, it clearly would have been with Microsoft.

And plenty who worked for Microsoft ended up millionaires and
I doubt to many of those care much about their pension scheme.

> Imagine an extreme case thought experiment -- the fund manager has no
> idea who the employers of the participants actually is -- they are
> nothing more than account numbers.
>
> If investing in the company that happened to employ you were a good
> risk, for John Smith who works at OtherCorp, it should be a good risk
> for you, too.

The difference is that they wouldn't normally stay
invested in that company for the whole of your
time employed there or as a pensioner there,
particularly if that operation started to look
like it was nothing like it once was like with
DEC or IBM etc.
 

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#156628

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-01-14 05:17 +0100
Message-ID<n3kjmc-trf.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#156612
In article <87pox5nf62.fsf@redbull.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me>,
Lawrence Statton  <lawrence@senguio.mx> wrote:
>Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>>
>>> There are, in most places, also clear limits to how much of the fund 
>>> payment that can go to buy the company shares; with limits on the
>>> order of 15% or so.
>>
>> Even that is questionable to me; if your employer goes bankrupt, it's
>> bad enough that you lose your income, but also 15% of your pension?
>>
>
>This is a case where a neutral fund manager would be to your
>advantage -- if you work for ReallyStableCorp (I would like to think of
>an example from today, but I can't) having 15% in your own company might
>actually be a perfectly reasonable risk.

>Imagine an extreme case thought experiment -- the fund manager has no
>idea who the employers of the participants actually is -- they are
>nothing more than account numbers.

This is precisely what happens. The 15% applies to any company. (it
varies a bit, some have 10%, some 12% etc; but the general EU rules are
15% max investment in any one company; shares and bonds alike.).

>If investing in the company that happened to employ you were a good
>risk, for John Smith who works at OtherCorp, it should be a good risk
>for you, too.  

-- mrr


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#156651

FromDave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com>
Date2016-01-14 13:11 -0600
Message-ID<n78ro6$986$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#156612
On 1/13/2016 7:05 PM, Lawrence Statton wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>>
>>> There are, in most places, also clear limits to how much of the fund
>>> payment that can go to buy the company shares; with limits on the
>>> order of 15% or so.
>>
>> Even that is questionable to me; if your employer goes bankrupt, it's
>> bad enough that you lose your income, but also 15% of your pension?
>>
>
> This is a case where a neutral fund manager would be to your
> advantage -- if you work for ReallyStableCorp (I would like to think of
> an example from today, but I can't) having 15% in your own company might
> actually be a perfectly reasonable risk.
>
> Imagine an extreme case thought experiment -- the fund manager has no
> idea who the employers of the participants actually is -- they are
> nothing more than account numbers.
>
> If investing in the company that happened to employ you were a good
> risk, for John Smith who works at OtherCorp, it should be a good risk
> for you, too.
>

True. But a pension fund's investments should be more like a 
conservative mutual fund. And it's a very rare mutual fund that will 
have more than a few percent invested in a single company. Too risky.

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#155919

FromHuge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid>
Date2016-01-04 22:37 +0000
Message-ID<df0ahtF7q4pU7@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#155896
On 2016-01-04, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:

[22 lines snipped]

> By far, the most notable part of the GM bankruptcy and bailout was the
> transfer of its pension to UAW; 

US car manufacturers have been financial organisations that happen to make
cars for some years.

-- 
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 4th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#155941

FromMike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
Date2016-01-05 04:44 -0400
Message-ID<87twmsjtz3.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to#155919
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:

> On 2016-01-04, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
> 
> [22 lines snipped]
> 
>> By far, the most notable part of the GM bankruptcy and bailout was the
>> transfer of its pension to UAW; 
> 
> US car manufacturers have been financial organisations that happen
> to make cars for some years.

The great promise of The Computer, from the biz perspective, is that
you should turn it on and money effortlessly comes out.  More and more
businesses are realizing that making actual physical products is an
externality in that context, or an internal diseconomy that should be
externalized.  Just turn on the computer and tell it to Do Finance.

It was an epiphany of sorts when I first heard the phrase,
"externalize internal diseconomies", viz.  "It costs so make somebody
else eat it."

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#155982

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2016-01-05 18:46 +0000
Message-ID<n6h31k022v2@news4.newsguy.com>
In reply to#155941
On 2016-01-05, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> It was an epiphany of sorts when I first heard the phrase,
> "externalize internal diseconomies", viz.  "It costs so make somebody
> else eat it."

Aren't buzzwords wonderful?

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#155950

Frommausg@mail.com
Date2016-01-05 11:06 +0000
Message-ID<slrnn8n8tq.171.mausg@smaus.org>
In reply to#155919
On 2016-01-04, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-01-04, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>
> [22 lines snipped]
>
>> By far, the most notable part of the GM bankruptcy and bailout was the
>> transfer of its pension to UAW; 
>
> US car manufacturers have been financial organisations that happen to make
> cars for some years.
>

In my recent search for a a car, I have noticed that that, instead
of a price on the front window of the new cars, they have `X per month'.
(and this is presently less than a bank loan). It is also more
enticing, as it is a lot smaller figure, i.e. "300 per month" is a lot more
enticing than "38,000"


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#155984

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2016-01-05 18:46 +0000
Message-ID<n6h31m322v2@news4.newsguy.com>
In reply to#155950
On 2016-01-05, mausg@mail.com <mausg@mail.com> wrote:

> In my recent search for a a car, I have noticed that that, instead
> of a price on the front window of the new cars, they have `X per month'.
> (and this is presently less than a bank loan). It is also more
> enticing, as it is a lot smaller figure, i.e. "300 per month" is a lot more
> enticing than "38,000"

Around here they've already taken the next step, and now
quote bi-weekly rates.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#155921

FromStephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Date2016-01-04 17:04 -0600
Message-ID<n6etli$slv$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#155878
On 04-Jan-16 09:29, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 8:56:48 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> Most US companies that had pension plans went bankrupt long ago, often
>> in large part due to those very pension plans because they were either
>> underfunded or the target of corporate raiders.
> 
> FWIW, one of my friends will have to work until he's age 70
> because his old company was raided and his pension substantially
> decreased.  The successor company treats their people like serfs,
> and is very quick to remind those they kept that they're lucky
> to have a job.

Yes, that was a serious problem, particularly in the 1980s; lots of
people lost their pensions to corporate raiders, which should never have
been allowed to happen.  Worse, raiders often left targets bankrupt, so
workers lost their jobs too, not just their pensions.

Worse, older workers often couldn't find similar-paying jobs elsewhere,
so not only did they have little time to make up for the lost pension,
but they didn't have enough income to even try.

This is why employer-managed pensions are such a horrible idea, as are
401(k) plans that allow investing in the employer's stock.

>> Most of the few remaining ones offer pensions only to union
>> employees or those over a certain age; younger or non-union
>> employees have only a 401(k) or similar plan available.
> 
> Many people who have a 401k have not done well with them.
> Individual everyday people do not have the skills to pick a competent
> fund manager nor manage the funds themselves.

That's exactly why mutual funds exist!

> Many have not recovered from the 2007 crash.

401(k)/IRA/etc. plans invested in mutual funds (often the only option
available), particularly index funds, should have recovered long ago.

The only exceptions are people who sold stocks and/or bought bonds at
the bottom, but even _they_ should be doing okay by now too, just not as
well as those who rode it out.

> (Not helping is that some fund managers were outright crooks,
> charging excessively high fees.)

For an index fund, if you're paying more than 1% in "management" fees,
you're getting ripped off.

For a non-index fund, you're getting ripped off regardless.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#155925

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-01-04 17:36 -0800
Message-ID<87d1tgn6x4.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#155878
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> FWIW, one of my friends will have to work until he's age 70
> because his old company was raided and his pension substantially
> decreased.  The successor company treats their people like serfs,
> and is very quick to remind those they kept that they're lucky
> to have a job.

one of the major victims of the triple-A ratings on (toxic) securitized
mortgages/loans were pension funds that were limited to only investing
in "safe investments" (claims that it took 30% on funds and trillions in
fund shortfall) over $27T total was done 2001-2008.

Top executives are manipulating pension plans to juice the bottom line
for and their bonuses ... as referenced in prevous post regarding
Welch & GE Capital. But there is much long litney chronicled ... some
IBM specific:
http://www.ibmemployee.com/RetirementHeist.shtml
from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Retirement-Heist-Companies-American-ebook/dp/B003QMLC6K/

wallstreet and public employee pension funds

Lehman's Gift To Jeb Bush For Funneling Pension Money: A $1.3 Million Consulting "Job"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-19/lehmans-gift-jeb-bush-funneling-pension-money-13-million-consulting-job

private-equity are buying companies and looting the victim companies
(including pension plans)  posts mentioning private equity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity

but they also are then selling "high-yield" (junk) bonds to public
employee pension funds (aka, industry got such bad rep ing S&L crisis,
that they changed their name to "private-equity" and junk bonds became
high-yield bonds).

long, ongoing litney involving calpers (but cal. isn't the only one,
just one of the largest)
http://www.sacbee.com/2014/07/01/6524138/former-calpers-ceo-buenrostro.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/07/former-calpers-ceo-pleads-guilty-bribery-fraud-including-taking-cash-paper-bags.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/07/orange-county-register-attacks-lack-public-pension-fund-transparency-cites-suit-calpers.html
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2506775-to-calpers-go-small-and-go-young-or-get-out
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-19/first-calpers-now-texas-teachers-cut-hedge-fund-exposure
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/10/gretchen-morgenson-damage-private-equity-secrecy-mention-calpers-suit.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/10/private-equity-consultants-flounder-question-abusive-evergreen-fees-calpers-board-meeting.html
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2688805-is-calpers-a-canary-in-the-coal-mine
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/04/investors-like-calpers-and-new-york-city-in-the-dark-about-private-equity-fees.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/06/top-private-equity-reporter-calpers-is-either-lying-or-has-a-massive-breakdown-in-financial-controls.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/sacramento-bee-reports-on-calpers-fee-lapses.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/california-state-treasurer-takes-up-calpers-private-equity-carry-fee-reporting-lapse-after-nc-readers-press-him.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/08/leading-pension-consultant-pca-shills-for-private-equity-firms-in-calperscalstrs-carry-fee-row.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/08/senior-private-equity-officers-at-calpers-do-not-understand-how-the-general-partners-make-money.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/fortunes-dan-primack-takes-up-calpers-private-equity-scandal-calls-head-of-private-equity-factually-wrong.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/financial-times-joins-the-party-on-calpers-and-links-to-naked-capitalism.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/wsjs-carried-interest-comic-strip-mocks-calpers.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/how-calpers-consultant-pension-consulting-alliance-is-more-loyal-to-private-equity-than-its-clients.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/california-readers-catch-on-kpfa-this-friday-at-730-am-discussing-calpers-and-calstrs.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/mission-impossible-star-alec-baldwin-retweets-yves-post-on-calpers-capture-by-private-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/the-larger-implications-of-calpers-staff-and-board-incompetence-in-private-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/former-california-official-blasts-calpers-ceo-anne-stausboll-staff-and-board-for-misconduct.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/former-state-chief-investment-officer-tells-calpers-and-calstrs-to-fire-consultant-pca-over-proposed-fix-for-poor-private-equityperformance.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-calpers-officers-propose-lower-investment-targets-wsj-2015-10
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/after-nc-media-coverage-of-calpers-and-calstrs-private-equity-fee-lapses-treasurer-john-chiang-calls-for-legislation.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/oxford-professor-schools-calpers-contrary-to-board-presentation-private-equity-is-most-expensive-asset-class-by-far.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/11/the-bigger-significance-of-calpers-private-equity-carry-fee-release-another-nail-in-the-carried-interest-tax-loophole-coffin.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/11/harvard-professor-josh-lerner-gives-weak-and-internally-contradictory-plug-for-private-equity-at-calpers-workshop.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/how-calpers-lies-to-itself-and-others-to-justify-investing-in-private-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/we-discuss-private-equity-calpers-and-its-tainted-counsel-on-harry-shearers-le-show-this-sunday.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/more-on-how-calpers-lies-to-itself-and-others-to-justify-investing-in-private-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/former-california-official-blasts-calpers-ceo-anne-stausboll-for-betrayal-of-trust-in-hiring-scandal-ridden-fiduciary-counsel.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/how-calpers-violated-california-open-meeting-laws-to-stifle-private-equity-skeptics.html
http://www.capoliticalreview.com/capoliticalnewsandviews/corruption-again-calpers-keeping-lobbying-records-secret-from-its-board-members/
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/how-calpers-fails-to-use-its-leverage-in-private-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/san-diego-union-tribune-editorial-attacks-calpers-over-half-hearted-plan-to-lower-return-targets.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/our-bloomberg-op-ed-on-calpers-plan-to-get-rid-of-private-equity-risk-by-ignoring-it.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/we-won-a-fight-against-calpers-over-its-plan-to-ignore-private-equity-risk.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/the-twelve-days-of-calpers.html

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#155767

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-01-02 15:01 +0000
Message-ID<PM0005285B2085496E@aca406b8.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#155752
Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-7, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>>     Yes we have come a very long way indeed. It makes you wonder what
>> another 35 years will bring.
>
> Of course, the pace of progress is slowing a bit. Dennard scaling has
already
> gone by the boards, and Moore's Law has only a bit more life left in it.
>
> However, other areas of technological progress are about to start their
sigmoid
> curves.
>
> So maybe 35 years from now, computers will only be a "little" better than
they
> are today (that will still be a significant improvement,

Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines.  the real
innovations will have to be done with software and I don't think that
will happen until hardware resources become scarce.

>just not as much as
> further exponential growth would indicate)... but that CISPR stuff might
lead
> to cures for nearly all genetic diseases, and basically eternal youth
through
> rebuilding telomeres...
>
> One way or another, the future will be exciting.

Yup.

/BAH

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#155769

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-01-02 15:58 +0000
Message-ID<20160102155831.5f4f8e8d91b1067ab26e5eb3@eircom.net>
In reply to#155767
On 2 Jan 2016 15:01:45 GMT
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines.  the real
> innovations will have to be done with software and I don't think that
> will happen until hardware resources become scarce.

	Read this if you think software is stagnating, some of it is jaw
dropping!

	http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-top-ai-breakthroughs-of-2015/

	There's more to software than managing scarcity.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#155869

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-04 06:40 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.30f42444b35a5041989d89@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#155769
In article <20160102155831.5f4f8e8d91b1067ab26e5eb3@eircom.net>, 
steveo@eircom.net says...
> 
> On 2 Jan 2016 15:01:45 GMT
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines.  the real
> > innovations will have to be done with software and I don't think that
> > will happen until hardware resources become scarce.
> 
> 	Read this if you think software is stagnating, some of it is jaw
> dropping!
> 
> 	http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-top-ai-breakthroughs-of-2015/
> 
> 	There's more to software than managing scarcity.

If Kurzweil says it works then you can bet your bottom dollar that it 
doesn't.

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#155872

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-01-04 12:31 +0000
Message-ID<20160104123141.4740d3afb6e2ca2b01bf14a6@eircom.net>
In reply to#155869
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 06:40:43 -0500
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <20160102155831.5f4f8e8d91b1067ab26e5eb3@eircom.net>, 
> steveo@eircom.net says...
> > 
> > On 2 Jan 2016 15:01:45 GMT
> > jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines.  the real
> > > innovations will have to be done with software and I don't think that
> > > will happen until hardware resources become scarce.
> > 
> > 	Read this if you think software is stagnating, some of it is jaw
> > dropping!
> > 
> > 	http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-top-ai-breakthroughs-of-2015/
> > 
> > 	There's more to software than managing scarcity.
> 
> If Kurzweil says it works then you can bet your bottom dollar that it 
> doesn't.

	Furrfu! Read it! This is not his 'the future holds' stuff it's an
up to date survey of work and results in the field. The byline on it is
Richard Mallah not Ray kurzweil and everything mentioned in it has decent
references.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#155932

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-04 22:06 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.30f4fd5417f06dba989d91@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#155872
In article <20160104123141.4740d3afb6e2ca2b01bf14a6@eircom.net>, 
steveo@eircom.net says...
> 
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 06:40:43 -0500
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <20160102155831.5f4f8e8d91b1067ab26e5eb3@eircom.net>, 
> > steveo@eircom.net says...
> > > 
> > > On 2 Jan 2016 15:01:45 GMT
> > > jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines.  the real
> > > > innovations will have to be done with software and I don't think that
> > > > will happen until hardware resources become scarce.
> > > 
> > > 	Read this if you think software is stagnating, some of it is jaw
> > > dropping!
> > > 
> > > 	http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-top-ai-breakthroughs-of-2015/
> > > 
> > > 	There's more to software than managing scarcity.
> > 
> > If Kurzweil says it works then you can bet your bottom dollar that it 
> > doesn't.
> 
> 	Furrfu! Read it! This is not his 'the future holds' stuff it's an
> up to date survey of work and results in the field. The byline on it is
> Richard Mallah not Ray kurzweil and everything mentioned in it has decent
> references.

Having decent references doesn't mean that they have been interpreted 
correctly.  Far as I'm concerned, Kurzweil and everybody associated with 
him are like politicians--you can tell they're lying because their 
mouths are moving.

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#155780

From"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-03 07:09 +1100
Message-ID<deqp45FqemoU4@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#155767

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM0005285B2085496E@aca406b8.ipt.aol.com...
> Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-7, Ahem A Rivet's Shot 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>     Yes we have come a very long way indeed. It makes you wonder what
>>> another 35 years will bring.
>>
>> Of course, the pace of progress is slowing a bit. Dennard scaling has
> already
>> gone by the boards, and Moore's Law has only a bit more life left in it.
>>
>> However, other areas of technological progress are about to start their
> sigmoid
>> curves.
>>
>> So maybe 35 years from now, computers will only be a "little" better than
> they
>> are today (that will still be a significant improvement,
>
> Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines.

Nothing like it in fact with fly by wire.

> the real innovations will have to be done with software

Yes.

> and I don't think that will happen until hardware resources become scarce.

It already has, LONG ago now.

>>just not as much as
>> further exponential growth would indicate)... but that CISPR stuff might
> lead
>> to cures for nearly all genetic diseases, and basically eternal youth
> through
>> rebuilding telomeres...
>>
>> One way or another, the future will be exciting.
>
> Yup.
 

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#155851

FromUncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-03 12:11 -0500
Message-ID<7db2ed440bca8c0-13432@gmail.com>
In reply to#155752
On Fri, Jan 01, 2016 at 03:57:43PM -0800, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-7, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> 
> > 	Yes we have come a very long way indeed. It makes you wonder what
> > another 35 years will bring.
> 
> Of course, the pace of progress is slowing a bit. Dennard scaling has already 
> gone by the boards, and Moore's Law has only a bit more life left in it.

Well, we haven't hit the atomic wall yet.  While we seem to be
reaching the limits of bulk manufacturing processes, the atom-by-atom
approach remains to be explored.  This represents something of a
discontinuity to the stately progression of Moore's law, but I am too
ignorant of science to project its limitation in terms of processor
clock speed, information density, heat dissipation, etc.
 
> However, other areas of technological progress are about to start their sigmoid 
> curves.
> 
> So maybe 35 years from now, computers will only be a "little" better than they 
> are today (that will still be a significant improvement, just not as much as 
> further exponential growth would indicate)... but that CISPR stuff might lead 
> to cures for nearly all genetic diseases, and basically eternal youth through 
> rebuilding telomeres...

I came to the realization some time ago that the natural apotheosis of
medicine was the eventual cure of disease and ageing.  Looking back it
seems a rather obvious projection of capability, and I wonder whether
some of the ancients (in Rome, for instance) looked upon technological
developments of their age and imagined in some dim way the potential
we now see looming.
 
> One way or another, the future will be exciting.

That's one way of putting it.



-- 
We all cannot be intelligent, but at least we can all be polite.

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#155857

FromQuadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
Date2016-01-03 20:42 -0800
Message-ID<e9a165d0-91a6-4c6b-87b6-c9241c9d6545@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#155851
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:28:20 PM UTC-7, Uncle Steve wrote:
> I wonder whether
> some of the ancients (in Rome, for instance) looked upon technological
> developments of their age and imagined in some dim way the potential
> we now see looming.

Generally speaking, in the distant past, people didn't notice change within 
their lifetimes, and so it wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that the 
possibility really entered the popular consciousness.

However, long before that, Roger Bacon wrote his vision of a future with 
increased technical capabilities.

And then, perhaps the earliest, the Bible speaks of a time when "people shall 
go to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".

John Savard

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#155863

From"jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com>
Date2016-01-04 16:43 +1100
Message-ID<deuf4eFo6c5U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#155857

"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message 
news:e9a165d0-91a6-4c6b-87b6-c9241c9d6545@googlegroups.com...
> On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:28:20 PM UTC-7, Uncle Steve wrote:
>> I wonder whether
>> some of the ancients (in Rome, for instance) looked upon technological
>> developments of their age and imagined in some dim way the potential
>> we now see looming.
>
> Generally speaking, in the distant past, people didn't notice change 
> within
> their lifetimes,

That is radically overstated, particularly
with those that got invaded by the Romans.

True in spades of the colonialists.

> and so it wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that the
> possibility really entered the popular consciousness.

That is just plain wrong.

> However, long before that, Roger Bacon wrote his vision of a future with
> increased technical capabilities.
>
> And then, perhaps the earliest, the Bible speaks of a time when "people 
> shall
> go to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".

That must have been happening a long time before the bible ever
showed up as people moved from hunter gatherer societys to
agriculture with all the technology that had to happen with that.

Same with the exploitation of metals etc. 

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