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[CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32

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  [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-11-08 13:49 +0000
    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-11-09 09:22 +0300
      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-09 09:22 +0200
        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-09 11:10 +0000
          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-09 12:07 +0000
        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-09 12:08 +0100
          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-09 14:13 +0000
            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-09 14:23 +0000
              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 18:18 +0100
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-10 18:25 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-10 19:35 +0000
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> - 2015-11-11 06:47 +1100
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-10 21:15 +0000
                          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> - 2015-11-11 12:15 +1100
                            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-11 10:19 +0000
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 06:23 +0000
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-11-11 11:08 -0800
                          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 21:23 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2015-11-10 19:51 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-11 00:31 +0100
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-11-11 08:01 +0000
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-11 12:23 +0100
                          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-12 03:27 +0000
                            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-12 13:23 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-11 14:39 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 05:51 +1100
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 06:28 +1100
            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-09 16:24 +0000
              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-10 16:01 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 18:20 +0100
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-10 18:49 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-11 14:39 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-11 16:31 +0000
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-11 18:05 +0000
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-11 18:20 +0000
                          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-11 23:24 +0000
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 14:04 +0000
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-12 14:47 +0000
                          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-13 13:58 +0000
                            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-13 15:44 +0100
                              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-14 13:56 +0000
                                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> - 2015-11-15 04:44 +1100
                              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-11-14 10:15 -0800
                                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-11-14 10:53 -0800
                              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-16 14:47 +0000
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-12 15:26 +0000
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 17:52 +0100
            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-09 20:17 +0100
            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 hankvc@blackhole.lostwells.org (Hank) - 2015-11-10 02:21 +0000
              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-09 14:13 +0000
          Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 05:31 +1100
            Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 18:05 +0100
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 10:52 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2015-11-11 11:40 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 mausg@mail.com - 2015-11-11 12:53 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 14:01 +0000
              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 06:25 +1100
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2015-11-10 23:19 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Sam Thatch" <st342@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 12:23 +1100
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 07:34 +0000
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2015-11-11 17:24 +0000
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-11-11 17:33 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2015-11-11 09:51 +0000
              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-11-11 11:05 -0800
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 14:04 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 12:38 +1100
              Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-12 03:17 +0000
                Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 14:04 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2015-11-12 12:24 -0500
                    Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-13 13:58 +0000
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-11-13 15:51 +0000
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2015-11-13 14:51 -0500
                        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-15 16:44 +0000
                      Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-13 18:11 +0000
                  Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 12:37 +1100
        Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-11-11 18:32 +0100

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#154335

In article <20151110182553.00c731ab5506225d47fe656e@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:18:14 +0100
>Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Like I explain to my carpenter brother in law; these things are
>> tools. With windows you get a IKEA drill, which is suited for the
>> novice user. I need a DeWalt, so I use BSDs and Linux. Mostly
>> BSDs, actually.
>
>	Windows - IKEA drill
>	Linux   - DeWalt
>	BSD     - Hilti
>
>	I've just replaced my Linux based (openwrt) firewall with a FreeBSD
>box using pf - now I understand my firewall rules and they do what I want
>them to.

Welcome to the club. I did that in 2004, but with OpenBSD, which has
pf built-in to the core. It also has rock solid implementations of all
(or almost all) of the internet-facing daemons.

-- mrr

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#154340

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:31:10 +0100, Morten Reistad 
<first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
> In article <20151110182553.00c731ab5506225d47fe656e@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:18:14 +0100
>>Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Like I explain to my carpenter brother in law; these things are
>>> tools. With windows you get a IKEA drill, which is suited for the
>>> novice user. I need a DeWalt, so I use BSDs and Linux. Mostly
>>> BSDs, actually.
>>
>>	Windows - IKEA drill
>>	Linux   - DeWalt
>>	BSD     - Hilti
>>
>>	I've just replaced my Linux based (openwrt) firewall with a FreeBSD
>>box using pf - now I understand my firewall rules and they do what I want
>>them to.
>
> Welcome to the club. I did that in 2004, but with OpenBSD, which has
> pf built-in to the core. 

Thanks for that...FreeBSD has it too.  Now they've ported FreeBSD to
the Raspberry Pi I'll think about re-doing my firewall.

-- 
Stan Barr     plan.b@bluesomatic.org

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#154347

In article <slrnn45teg.8q6.plan.b@ID-309335.user.uni-berlin.de>,
Stan Barr  <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:31:10 +0100, Morten Reistad 
><first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <20151110182553.00c731ab5506225d47fe656e@eircom.net>,
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:18:14 +0100
>>>Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Like I explain to my carpenter brother in law; these things are
>>>> tools. With windows you get a IKEA drill, which is suited for the
>>>> novice user. I need a DeWalt, so I use BSDs and Linux. Mostly
>>>> BSDs, actually.
>>>
>>>	Windows - IKEA drill
>>>	Linux   - DeWalt
>>>	BSD     - Hilti
>>>
>>>	I've just replaced my Linux based (openwrt) firewall with a FreeBSD
>>>box using pf - now I understand my firewall rules and they do what I want
>>>them to.
>>
>> Welcome to the club. I did that in 2004, but with OpenBSD, which has
>> pf built-in to the core. 
>
>Thanks for that...FreeBSD has it too.  Now they've ported FreeBSD to
>the Raspberry Pi I'll think about re-doing my firewall.

Ah. Thanks. Wasn't aware of how far they have come. Downloading ...

-- mrr

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#154404

In article <c3lbhc-7cl.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>,
Morten Reistad  <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>In article <slrnn45teg.8q6.plan.b@ID-309335.user.uni-berlin.de>,
>Stan Barr  <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:31:10 +0100, Morten Reistad 
>><first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <20151110182553.00c731ab5506225d47fe656e@eircom.net>,
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:18:14 +0100
>>>>Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Like I explain to my carpenter brother in law; these things are
>>>>> tools. With windows you get a IKEA drill, which is suited for the
>>>>> novice user. I need a DeWalt, so I use BSDs and Linux. Mostly
>>>>> BSDs, actually.
>>>>
>>>>	Windows - IKEA drill
>>>>	Linux   - DeWalt
>>>>	BSD     - Hilti
>>>>
>>>>	I've just replaced my Linux based (openwrt) firewall with a FreeBSD
>>>>box using pf - now I understand my firewall rules and they do what I want
>>>>them to.
>>>
>>> Welcome to the club. I did that in 2004, but with OpenBSD, which has
>>> pf built-in to the core. 
>>
>>Thanks for that...FreeBSD has it too.  Now they've ported FreeBSD to
>>the Raspberry Pi I'll think about re-doing my firewall.
>
>Ah. Thanks. Wasn't aware of how far they have come. Downloading ...
>
>-- mrr
>

Actually... I've got the Banana PI here with the Gigabyte Ethernet.  Only 
problem is I'd like to find a board with two of them.

I'm thinking about this board which has 4 Gigbit Ethernets and Wifi
802.11b/g/n.  

Bill

http://www.banana-pi.com/eacp_view.asp?id=64
-- 
-- 
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/

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#154412

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 03:27:00 -0000 (UTC)
pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) wrote:

> Actually... I've got the Banana PI here with the Gigabyte Ethernet.  Only 
> problem is I'd like to find a board with two of them.

	I solved that problem by using the VLAN support in my switch with
the modem plugged into an untagged port and the router in a tagged port. I
may add another VLAN to have a guest WiFi LAN with no access to the house
LAN.

	I'll have to rethink this approach if I ever get gigabit broadband,
but I'll be happy to have that problem.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#154354

Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <PM00052430B92C8826@aca41c5c.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>gareth wrote:
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PM0005241C7B957C4D@aca432c8.ipt.aol.com...
>>>> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  DEC would consider
>>>> that a bug.
>>>
>>> Any decent computer person worth her or his salt considers both Microsoft
>>> Windows and Unix and its spawns to be bugs.
>>
>>
>>It all depends on what the owner of the system wants/needs.  Since
>>TOPS-20 was not available for the general population, something like
>>MS or Apple's OS would be the preferred system on a PC.  MS' main
>>problems were that they did not know how to do memory management nor
>>disk I/O management well (BSODs and reinstalling system software very,
>>very often).
>
> They had several other braindead design items.

Of course.

> They frankly didn't know how to make an OS.

Their corporate folklore was based on distribution, not delivery
of computing services.  I simply listed the two main items which
made their product unusable.  If those two had been functional,
I don't know if the other problems would have caused as much
disgust.

>
> The state of the art was well established by 1984, with both
> MP/M(became concurrent CPM), QNX and OS/9 doing things right,
> mostly. You also had lots of more equipment-specific OSes like
> the Amiga and Atari ones, which were almost half way there;
> each around 10-15 years ahead of Microsoft.
>
> QNX, which I know best, was around 20 years ahead of Microsoft, they
> sort of caught up with the 1984 version around 2005. But by then
> QNX had moved on.
>
> You also have Linux, which is not really a unix. It is, internally,
> more a son-of-tops20 with a unix top layer towards the user. (It even
> has the IPC deep down, but still lacks a proper enq-deq; but the
> locking almost makes up for it. yes, you can ship a page to another
> process just as you can with Tops20, but you cannot have the OS
> automatically assign them to a group of processes)

Why would you want them assigned automatically?  It should take
a specific JSYS (or an argument to a JSYS) to share them.

>
> MS could easily have bought either of these, and made a hypervisor
> based on QNX, OS/9, CCPM, or a dozen other; and run compatibilty
> boxes for the DOS stuff inside. Instead they made the abomination
> of Windows, when there was at least a decade of proof they were
> way, way behind. This hypervisor thing is still a good thing for
> MS to do. But I won't hold my breath.

They obsconded a flavor of VMS, paid DEC to develop it, then
pulled the funding before it was finished.  If they had waited
until the DEC developers had finished, they would have had a
really good system (based on my knowledge of the talent of the
people doing the work).  I suspect it's typical of MS to
be premature w.r.t. acquiring software and distributing it.

>
> Like I explain to my carpenter brother in law; these things are
> tools. With windows you get a IKEA drill, which is suited for the
> novice user. I need a DeWalt, so I use BSDs and Linux. Mostly
> BSDs, actually.

<grin>  What would you use if you needed an industrial strength
drill?  Those OSes are being run in museums.  Some day,
they'll probably be back (with the appropriate upgrading).

/BAH

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#154379

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM0005244512F98C8F@aca4238e.ipt.aol.com...
> Morten Reistad wrote:
>> In article <PM00052430B92C8826@aca41c5c.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>gareth wrote:
>>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:PM0005241C7B957C4D@aca432c8.ipt.aol.com...
>>>>> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  DEC would consider
>>>>> that a bug.
>>>>
>>>> Any decent computer person worth her or his salt considers both 
>>>> Microsoft
>>>> Windows and Unix and its spawns to be bugs.
>>>
>>>
>>>It all depends on what the owner of the system wants/needs.  Since
>>>TOPS-20 was not available for the general population, something like
>>>MS or Apple's OS would be the preferred system on a PC.  MS' main
>>>problems were that they did not know how to do memory management nor
>>>disk I/O management well (BSODs and reinstalling system software very,
>>>very often).
>>
>> They had several other braindead design items.
>
> Of course.
>
>> They frankly didn't know how to make an OS.
>
> Their corporate folklore was based on distribution, not delivery
> of computing services.  I simply listed the two main items which
> made their product unusable.  If those two had been functional,
> I don't know if the other problems would have caused as much
> disgust.
>
>>
>> The state of the art was well established by 1984, with both
>> MP/M(became concurrent CPM), QNX and OS/9 doing things right,
>> mostly. You also had lots of more equipment-specific OSes like
>> the Amiga and Atari ones, which were almost half way there;
>> each around 10-15 years ahead of Microsoft.
>>
>> QNX, which I know best, was around 20 years ahead of Microsoft, they
>> sort of caught up with the 1984 version around 2005. But by then
>> QNX had moved on.
>>
>> You also have Linux, which is not really a unix. It is, internally,
>> more a son-of-tops20 with a unix top layer towards the user. (It even
>> has the IPC deep down, but still lacks a proper enq-deq; but the
>> locking almost makes up for it. yes, you can ship a page to another
>> process just as you can with Tops20, but you cannot have the OS
>> automatically assign them to a group of processes)
>
> Why would you want them assigned automatically?  It should take
> a specific JSYS (or an argument to a JSYS) to share them.
>
>>
>> MS could easily have bought either of these, and made a hypervisor
>> based on QNX, OS/9, CCPM, or a dozen other; and run compatibilty
>> boxes for the DOS stuff inside. Instead they made the abomination
>> of Windows, when there was at least a decade of proof they were
>> way, way behind. This hypervisor thing is still a good thing for
>> MS to do. But I won't hold my breath.
>
> They obsconded a flavor of VMS, paid DEC to develop it, then
> pulled the funding before it was finished.  If they had waited
> until the DEC developers had finished, they would have had a
> really good system (based on my knowledge of the talent of the
> people doing the work).  I suspect it's typical of MS to
> be premature w.r.t. acquiring software and distributing it.
>
>>
>> Like I explain to my carpenter brother in law; these things are
>> tools. With windows you get a IKEA drill, which is suited for the
>> novice user. I need a DeWalt, so I use BSDs and Linux. Mostly
>> BSDs, actually.
>
> <grin>  What would you use if you needed an industrial strength
> drill?  Those OSes are being run in museums.  Some day,
> they'll probably be back (with the appropriate upgrading).

Not a chance, you watch. 

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#154313

jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote 
> gareth wrote
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote 

>>> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  
>>> DEC would consider that a bug.

>> Any decent computer person worth her or his salt considers 
>> both Microsoft Windows and Unix and its spawns to be bugs.

> It all depends on what the owner of the system wants/needs.  Since
> TOPS-20 was not available for the general population, something 
> like MS or Apple's OS would be the preferred system on a PC.  

> MS' main problems were that they did not know how to 
> do memory management nor disk I/O management well 
> (BSODs and reinstalling system software very, very often).

Even more pig ignorant than you usually manage.  

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#154219

On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:13:41 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:

> Morten Reistad wrote:
>> In article <877flrwsa6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
>> Marko Rauhamaa  <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>>RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>>>
>>>> (That said, I /do/ wish boot times were 0.5 seconds again).
>>>
>>>I don't know. Who boots a computer nowadays?
>>
>> I do, the ones I develop on. And they are up within a minute,
>> all of them. With all subsystems like apache, mysql etc.
>>
>> The laptops come out of hibernation usually as fast as I can open the
>> lid, but sometimes there is a ~2s delay, which may be some swapping
>> taking place.
>>
>> The annoying bit is the dhcp stuff for ipv4, which takes around 10
>> seconds. ipv6 is up within a second.
>>
>> I contrast this with the minis at various PPOEs, which all took around
>> 30 minutes to come up completely.
> 
> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  DEC would consider that a bug. 
> Note that none of the OS developers would wait that long for a restart
> so they would work on getting a system up quickly.

Never booted VMS off a DECtape II then?  :)



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#154286

Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:13:41 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>
>> Morten Reistad wrote:
>>> In article <877flrwsa6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
>>> Marko Rauhamaa  <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>>>RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> (That said, I /do/ wish boot times were 0.5 seconds again).
>>>>
>>>>I don't know. Who boots a computer nowadays?
>>>
>>> I do, the ones I develop on. And they are up within a minute,
>>> all of them. With all subsystems like apache, mysql etc.
>>>
>>> The laptops come out of hibernation usually as fast as I can open the
>>> lid, but sometimes there is a ~2s delay, which may be some swapping
>>> taking place.
>>>
>>> The annoying bit is the dhcp stuff for ipv4, which takes around 10
>>> seconds. ipv6 is up within a second.
>>>
>>> I contrast this with the minis at various PPOEs, which all took around
>>> 30 minutes to come up completely.
>>
>> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  DEC would consider that a bug.
>> Note that none of the OS developers would wait that long for a restart
>> so they would work on getting a system up quickly.
>
> Never booted VMS off a DECtape II then?  :)

Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
got hired.

IIRC, most of VMS' thrashing at boot time was to figure out which
products were "allowed" to be loaded.  IOW, if the site/system
had the proper licenses.

/BAH

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#154292

jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:13:41 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>
>>> Morten Reistad wrote:
>>>> In article <877flrwsa6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
>>>> Marko Rauhamaa  <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>>>>RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> (That said, I /do/ wish boot times were 0.5 seconds again).
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't know. Who boots a computer nowadays?
>>>>
>>>> I do, the ones I develop on. And they are up within a minute,
>>>> all of them. With all subsystems like apache, mysql etc.
>>>>
>>>> The laptops come out of hibernation usually as fast as I can open the
>>>> lid, but sometimes there is a ~2s delay, which may be some swapping
>>>> taking place.
>>>>
>>>> The annoying bit is the dhcp stuff for ipv4, which takes around 10
>>>> seconds. ipv6 is up within a second.
>>>>
>>>> I contrast this with the minis at various PPOEs, which all took around
>>>> 30 minutes to come up completely.
>>>
>>> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  DEC would consider that a bug.
>>> Note that none of the OS developers would wait that long for a restart
>>> so they would work on getting a system up quickly.
>>
>> Never booted VMS off a DECtape II then?  :)
>
>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>got hired.

While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea,
your hatred of the VAX is personal; it was obviously a
great product if you gauge by shipments, revenue and
user testimonials.

>
>IIRC, most of VMS' thrashing at boot time was to figure out which
>products were "allowed" to be loaded.  IOW, if the site/system
>had the proper licenses.

That wasn't my experience with VMS at all, and we had a source
license, and I spent a lot of time fixing bugs in the OS and writing
drivers, symbionts and ACP's.  I don't recall any issues with slow boot on the 11/780.

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#154302

In article <Sxo0y.27916$ij2.8454@fx08.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:13:41 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>
>>>> Morten Reistad wrote:
>>>>> In article <877flrwsa6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
>>>>> Marko Rauhamaa  <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>>>>>RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (That said, I /do/ wish boot times were 0.5 seconds again).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know. Who boots a computer nowadays?
>>>>>
>>>>> I do, the ones I develop on. And they are up within a minute,
>>>>> all of them. With all subsystems like apache, mysql etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The laptops come out of hibernation usually as fast as I can open the
>>>>> lid, but sometimes there is a ~2s delay, which may be some swapping
>>>>> taking place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The annoying bit is the dhcp stuff for ipv4, which takes around 10
>>>>> seconds. ipv6 is up within a second.
>>>>>
>>>>> I contrast this with the minis at various PPOEs, which all took around
>>>>> 30 minutes to come up completely.
>>>>
>>>> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  DEC would consider that a bug.
>>>> Note that none of the OS developers would wait that long for a restart
>>>> so they would work on getting a system up quickly.
>>>
>>> Never booted VMS off a DECtape II then?  :)
>>
>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>got hired.
>
>While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea,
>your hatred of the VAX is personal; it was obviously a
>great product if you gauge by shipments, revenue and
>user testimonials.
>
>>
>>IIRC, most of VMS' thrashing at boot time was to figure out which
>>products were "allowed" to be loaded.  IOW, if the site/system
>>had the proper licenses.
>
>That wasn't my experience with VMS at all, and we had a source
>license, and I spent a lot of time fixing bugs in the OS and writing
>drivers, symbionts and ACP's.  I don't recall any issues with slow boot on the 11/780.

My experience with the 11/750 was that memory assignment and the
fork/spawn of processes was a killer in startup, and had lots of overhead
until the OS understood the working set, which could take an hour.

-- mrr

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#154310

Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> writes:
>In article <Sxo0y.27916$ij2.8454@fx08.iad>,

>>>IIRC, most of VMS' thrashing at boot time was to figure out which
>>>products were "allowed" to be loaded.  IOW, if the site/system
>>>had the proper licenses.
>>
>>That wasn't my experience with VMS at all, and we had a source
>>license, and I spent a lot of time fixing bugs in the OS and writing
>>drivers, symbionts and ACP's.  I don't recall any issues with slow boot on the 11/780.
>
>My experience with the 11/750 was that memory assignment and the
>fork/spawn of processes was a killer in startup, and had lots of overhead
>until the OS understood the working set, which could take an hour.
>
It may have helped that we had 4MB of MA780 (shared between four
vaxen) to which all the compilers were installed.

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#154353

Scott Lurndal wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:13:41 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>
>>>> Morten Reistad wrote:
>>>>> In article <877flrwsa6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
>>>>> Marko Rauhamaa  <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>>>>>RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (That said, I /do/ wish boot times were 0.5 seconds again).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know. Who boots a computer nowadays?
>>>>>
>>>>> I do, the ones I develop on. And they are up within a minute,
>>>>> all of them. With all subsystems like apache, mysql etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> The laptops come out of hibernation usually as fast as I can open the
>>>>> lid, but sometimes there is a ~2s delay, which may be some swapping
>>>>> taking place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The annoying bit is the dhcp stuff for ipv4, which takes around 10
>>>>> seconds. ipv6 is up within a second.
>>>>>
>>>>> I contrast this with the minis at various PPOEs, which all took around
>>>>> 30 minutes to come up completely.
>>>>
>>>> That's (30 minutes boot-up) is horrid.  DEC would consider that a bug.
>>>> Note that none of the OS developers would wait that long for a restart
>>>> so they would work on getting a system up quickly.
>>>
>>> Never booted VMS off a DECtape II then?  :)
>>
>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>got hired.
>
> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea,
> your hatred of the VAX is personal; it was obviously a
> great product if you gauge by shipments, revenue and
> user testimonials.

Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX?


>
>>
>>IIRC, most of VMS' thrashing at boot time was to figure out which
>>products were "allowed" to be loaded.  IOW, if the site/system
>>had the proper licenses.
>
> That wasn't my experience with VMS at all, and we had a source
> license, and I spent a lot of time fixing bugs in the OS and writing
> drivers, symbionts and ACP's.  I don't recall any issues with slow boot on
the 11/780.

Perhaps the difference on your site was having the sources.

/BAH

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#154357

jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:

>>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>>got hired.
>>
>> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea,
>> your hatred of the VAX is personal; it was obviously a
>> great product if you gauge by shipments, revenue and
>> user testimonials.
>
>Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX?
>

Given that one didn't exist without the other (at least
until the BSD port), no.

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#154374

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:31:49 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> 
>>>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>>>got hired.
>>>
>>> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea, your hatred of
>>> the VAX is personal; it was obviously a great product if you gauge by
>>> shipments, revenue and user testimonials.
>>
>>Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX?
>>
>>
> Given that one didn't exist without the other (at least until the BSD
> port), no.

UNIX-32V came before BSD on the VAX...



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#154377

Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> writes:
>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:31:49 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>> 
>>>>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>>>>got hired.
>>>>
>>>> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea, your hatred of
>>>> the VAX is personal; it was obviously a great product if you gauge by
>>>> shipments, revenue and user testimonials.
>>>
>>>Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX?
>>>
>>>
>> Given that one didn't exist without the other (at least until the BSD
>> port), no.
>
>UNIX-32V came before BSD on the VAX...
>

And that was the version I booted on the 11/780.  I'm not sure why
I thought that BSD preceeded it.  IIRC, BSD supported paging while
Unix-32V only supported swapping.

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#154396

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:20:02 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> writes:
>>On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:31:49 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>> 
>>>>>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>>>>>got hired.
>>>>>
>>>>> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea, your hatred of
>>>>> the VAX is personal; it was obviously a great product if you gauge
>>>>> by shipments, revenue and user testimonials.
>>>>
>>>>Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Given that one didn't exist without the other (at least until the BSD
>>> port), no.
>>
>>UNIX-32V came before BSD on the VAX...
>>
>>
> And that was the version I booted on the 11/780.  I'm not sure why I
> thought that BSD preceeded it.  IIRC, BSD supported paging while
> Unix-32V only supported swapping.

We ran UNIX-32V for a short while, then went straight over to BSD 4.0. 
And now I use FreeBSD!



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#154416

Scott Lurndal wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>
>>>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>>>got hired.
>>>
>>> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea,
>>> your hatred of the VAX is personal; it was obviously a
>>> great product if you gauge by shipments, revenue and
>>> user testimonials.
>>
>>Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX?
>>
>
> Given that one didn't exist without the other (at least
> until the BSD port), no.

Ah, I see.  You're a customer.  On my side of the biz,
they were two very different entities.

/BAH

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#154419

In article <PM0005245889FBE0A0@aca40f93.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>
>>>>>Both were shit products.  VMS got better after the PDP-10 developers
>>>>>got hired.
>>>>
>>>> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea,
>>>> your hatred of the VAX is personal; it was obviously a
>>>> great product if you gauge by shipments, revenue and
>>>> user testimonials.
>>>
>>>Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX?
>>>
>>
>> Given that one didn't exist without the other (at least
>> until the BSD port), no.
>
>Ah, I see.  You're a customer.  On my side of the biz,
>they were two very different entities.
>
>/BAH

There were differences between what LCG development was like and what the 
rest of DEC was like.  In the real world VAX wasn't VMS although VMS was
VAX.

As far as your view on VMS -- it was pretty distorted compared with the views
of customers in the field.  The major colleges and universities which used
TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 weren't as pleased since the VAX was more a departmental
box than a mainframe.  It wasn't designed to support thousands of users.

Commercial customers seemed to like the OS for decentralized
division and departmental data processing and smaller schools liked the ease
of systems management and DCL.

VMS 2.0 was pretty rough.  The utilities were often compatibility mode.
MCR SYE anyone?

I personally never installed less than 2.0.  The immediate update from 2.0
to 2.2 was part of the install process when I was setting up 11/780s in Field
Service.  The tapes were shipped together with the system for checkout and 
diagnostics.

VMS2.0 was a little bit better than just a 32 bit RSX11 -- but just a bit.
It competed with MPE from HP and other minicomputer operating systems
including Unix.  I saw it lose to HP occasionally and Unix more often,
but I'm located in New Jersey.  My home turf was heavily loaded with
ex-IBM and ex-Unix types. PDP10 types were concentrated at the
Universities, Johnson and Johnson and AT&T in this state.  8-)
I think they may have 

By the time 3.x rolled around in Mid '82 it was a lot better.
I arrived at DEC in 2/81 so I installed both V2, V3 and V4 up through
4.2 when I was there.

By the 8650 VMS was moving up in the corporate hierarchy since the 11/780 was
way too undersized by the mid to late 80's.  The 11/785 was far from adequate
and the 8600 was expensive and DEC was losing customers to various Unix
vendors who were doing multiprocessor systems.  Pyramid, Sequent and others
were nibbling away at DEC's Unix and VMS scientific customers since they
often sold Fortran compilers which could run the dusty old decks of
DEC Fortran sources unmodified.

In PDP11 and VAX land VAX was mostly VMS but there were DEC sold, 
supported and maintained Unix versions used by REAL CUSTOMERS and
fully supported by DEC.  Ultrix, V7M11 (later Ultrix-11) existed and 
we had plenty of folks who saw DEC supported Unix with DEC quality errorlogs
and DEC Maintenance.  There were users of the VAX that wanted things other
than a PDP10 replacement.  The VAX was not, in the mid 80', a real PDP10
replacement candidate until the clusters and RA drives allowed for 
VAXclusters to take up the load the PDP10's could handle.

Ultrix was available and in customer hands in June 1984.  It mixed
functionality from 4.x BSD and System V.  Users of DEC hardware could pick
from BSD releases, AT&T System V (up through SysVRel2 on the PDP and up 
through SystemV rel3 on VAX).  I believe AT&T dropped the VAX when they 
started selling SVR3.2 on their own 3B systems commercially, but they
probably had SVR4 internally on some of their 86xx machines.

DEC at this time joined up with others including IBM to work on a non-AT&T/Sun 
Unix look-alike OSF/1 which was their response to AT&T joining up with Sun
to create what later became Unix International's SVR4.2.

HP was a member of both groups -- the OSF/1 and SVR4 group... and they
decided to go with a mixed Unix with both SystemV and BSD features instead
of dropping all of HP-UX and branding an SVR4 version as their Unix.

One company who was putting mini-supers into that environment was Alliant...
They targeted that scientific market with their FX/8 and FX/80 boxes.
Unfortunately, they went under in 1992 and Craig Mundie went off to go
to Microsoft.


Bill
-- 
-- 
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/

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