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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #150402 > unrolled thread

very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode

Started byhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
First post2015-08-25 13:24 -0700
Last post2015-11-30 10:42 -0900
Articles 20 on this page of 112 — 26 participants

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  very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-08-25 13:24 -0700
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2015-08-25 13:35 -0800
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 23:19 +0100
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-08-25 17:36 -0500
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Joe Morris" <j.c.morris@verizon.net> - 2015-08-25 19:41 -0400
      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode tracymnelson@gmail.com - 2015-10-26 09:16 -0700
        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-26 09:47 -0700
          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-26 10:00 -0700
            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-26 21:18 +0000
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-26 17:37 -0400
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 19:55 +0000
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-27 08:31 -0400
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-27 14:41 -0500
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 20:17 +0000
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:59 -0500
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:01 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-29 13:46 -0500
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-26 21:00 -0500
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-26 19:41 -0700
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 07:28 -0700
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 12:47 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 20:17 +0000
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-27 23:02 +0000
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 09:38 +0000
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 07:47 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 19:24 +0000
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 13:42 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:57 +0000
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:54 +0000
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-30 18:44 +0000
              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-27 15:19 -0500
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-27 18:58 -0500
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 17:57 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 17:59 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 18:26 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-28 14:57 -0500
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-28 14:09 -0600
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:52 -0500
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:46 -0500
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:09 +0000
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:38 -0500
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 06:06 -0400
                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 01:22 +0000
                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-28 15:22 -0500
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 13:49 -0700
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-28 15:51 -0700
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:28 -0700
                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:34 +0000
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2015-10-28 22:11 +0000
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:59 +0000
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 16:31 +0000
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-30 20:07 -0700
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 03:57 -0600
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 10:20 +0000
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 04:51 -0600
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-31 07:08 -0400
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 12:29 +0000
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> - 2015-10-31 12:04 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 06:11 -0600
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> - 2015-10-31 12:37 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 13:20 +0000
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 16:18 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-11-01 10:41 -0600
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-31 15:21 +0100
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-31 15:13 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-31 12:49 -0500
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-31 15:09 -0500
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-11-01 12:04 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-11-01 07:48 -0600
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-11-01 13:56 +0000
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-11-01 18:33 +0000
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-11-02 17:17 +0000
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2015-10-31 11:30 +0000
                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:15 -0700
                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 02:55 +0000
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-29 07:36 -0700
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 17:19 +0000
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-29 11:33 -0600
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-29 18:03 -0500
                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-29 11:44 -0600
                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-29 16:03 -0400
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-29 14:15 -0600
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 21:51 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 15:20 -0700
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-30 07:28 -0400
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-30 14:57 -0500
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-29 13:26 -0700
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-29 15:40 -0500
                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 15:32 -0700
                                Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 23:10 +0000
                                  Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 19:09 -0700
                                    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-30 16:35 +0000
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 18:35 +0000
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-30 12:05 -0700
                                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-30 12:22 -0700
                                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-02 14:15 +0000
                                      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-30 17:31 -0400
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-30 17:44 -0400
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-30 23:38 -0400
                                        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-31 15:08 -0500
                                          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-11-02 17:17 +0000
                                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> - 2015-11-03 16:44 +0000
                                            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-11-05 15:28 -0600
                                              Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-11-05 17:05 -0500
            Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-26 22:12 +0100
    Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-11-16 18:48 -0800
      Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2015-11-25 16:00 +0000
        Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-11-30 09:43 -0800
          Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2015-11-30 10:42 -0900

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#153484

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2015-10-28 21:09 +0000
Message-ID<n0rdj10174g@news7.newsguy.com>
In reply to#153471
On 2015-10-28, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> "Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message 
> news:7f2abd0e-3b74-45fa-ae99-c8479baa8276@googlegroups.com...
>
>>               [snip...]                   [snip...] 
>> [snip...]
>>
>> I didn't realize that this was what they meant by "tape picker" - I was
>> envisaging a system for automated loading of 9-track tapes. Or that 
>> honeycomb device IBM made later on.
>
> The word "honeycomb" seems to touch something in my memory.  I thin the 
> honeycomb device is what I was refering to.  I had thought that a cell in 
> the honeycomb would hold a small length of tape.  Help me out here...

Definitely the IBM 3850.  Try googling for it.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#153476

FromJon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
Date2015-10-28 15:38 -0500
Message-ID<VvidnXApjPVGrKzLnZ2dnUU7-LudnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#153419
Quadibloc wrote:

> On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 5:58:52 PM UTC-6, Jon Elson wrote:
>> But, they would occasionally
>> mispick a card and tear it up, and then you had a real mess.
> 
> And, of course, loss of data is the one intolerable thing in the mainframe
> world.
> 
> IBM probably made the device because NCR had something similar in its CRAM
> device, and so they could not stand to see some other company offering a
> capability they didn't have.
> 
> I didn't realize that this was what they meant by "tape picker" - I was
> envisaging a system for automated loading of 9-track tapes. Or that
> honeycomb device IBM made later on.
Yes, that came much later, it was an automated tape library system.  Each 
tape held quite a bit of data.  I don't think these were commonly seen on 
360's, but on larger 370 installations.  I think that's the 3850, and I 
believe it was considered to be quite reliable.

The data cell cards were about the size of an IBM punch card, and so you can 
imagine the amount of data held on one of those using 1960's technology was 
not great.

Jon

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#153432

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2015-10-28 06:06 -0400
Message-ID<289355670.467719000.255358.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#153416
Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> Charles Richmond wrote:
> 
> 
>> At a PPoE, the financial department had a large IBM mainframe.  This
>> department also had a "tape picker".  If a disk file "aged out", then it
>> was transferred to a small piece of mag tape and place in some kind of
>> pigeon
>> hole.  If later this file was accessed, the "tape picker" would have to
>> restore the file to actual disk before you could use it.  That could take
>> between 2 and 5 minutes.
>> 
> That was an IBM 2321 data cell drive.  Completely ingenious, and also 
> completely Rube Goldberg!  While they did hold a log of data that rarely 
> needed access, they were NOT foolproof.  You RARELY ever needed to touch it, 
> so foolproof is not really the correct term.  But, they would occasionally 
> mispick a card and tear it up, and then you had a real mess.  I think a LOT 
> of people were VERY glad when the darn things were withdrawn from service.
> And, my understanding is that NO user installations begged IBM to continue 
> support for them.
> 

Or maybe a 3850 Mass Storage System?
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/mss.html

-- 
Pete

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#153422

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2015-10-28 01:22 +0000
Message-ID<n0p7vr12cpd@news7.newsguy.com>
In reply to#153404
On 2015-10-27, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> My theory is:  Things get easier and easier... until eventually those things 
> are *not* worth doing anymore.

Being the cynic that I am, after watching what's happened to the industry,
I have an alternate theory: things get harder and harder... until eventually
those things are not worth doing anymore.  (That's when I throw out the
newfangled solutions and go back to something that works.)

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#153475

From"Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com>
Date2015-10-28 15:22 -0500
Message-ID<n0ramc$358$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#153422
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message 
news:n0p7vr12cpd@news7.newsguy.com...
> On 2015-10-27, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> My theory is:  Things get easier and easier... until eventually those 
>> things
>> are *not* worth doing anymore.
>
> Being the cynic that I am, after watching what's happened to the industry,
> I have an alternate theory: things get harder and harder... until 
> eventually
> those things are not worth doing anymore.  (That's when I throw out the
> newfangled solutions and go back to something that works.)
>

Charlie, I think *my* theory makes more sense.  Something always starts out 
being hard, like making a watch that will work.  Eventually, watches are 
made very well.  Then the digital plastic watch phase and the quarts crystal 
watches become cheap and take over. Now hardly anyone wears a watch at all. 
In the beginning when things were hard, it was very important to get them to 
work right.  Now that it's easy, no one cares.

A similar development course can be traced for many things.

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

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#153479

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2015-10-28 13:49 -0700
Message-ID<4f5ed788-8a4c-4c94-bcab-3e6dc1d8d08f@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#153475
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 4:22:40 PM UTC-4, Charles Richmond wrote:

> Charlie, I think *my* theory makes more sense.  Something always starts out 
> being hard, like making a watch that will work.  Eventually, watches are 
> made very well.  Then the digital plastic watch phase and the quarts crystal 
> watches become cheap and take over. Now hardly anyone wears a watch at all. 
> In the beginning when things were hard, it was very important to get them to 
> work right.  Now that it's easy, no one cares.
> A similar development course can be traced for many things.

I think in many cases newer technology replaces the old.  That is, the old technology is taken as far as it could go, then is replaced.

For instance, passenger railroad service reached their peak in speed and comfort in the 1950s, but then jet plane and interstate highway service made trains obsolete.

The telephone company kept exploring ways to improve electro-mechanical switching and analog transmission until digital electronics made it all obsolete.

Note that for years the telephone company was working to improve pay telephone service and efficiency--a ton of stuff was done behind the scenes--but then cell phones made them mostly obsolete.

As to wrist watches, I think basically the cell phone replaced them.  Part of it is a fashion trend--a wrist watch was always both a functional item AND a fashion accessory.  Plenty of people still wear watches, and they make plenty of fancy ones, too.

The mainframe computer was supposed to be gone, but S/360's successors are still kicking strong.

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#153495

FromQuadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
Date2015-10-28 15:51 -0700
Message-ID<6aecf717-8370-4a24-ab1e-bd8761891862@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#153479
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 2:49:31 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> The mainframe computer was supposed to be gone, but S/360's successors are 
> still kicking strong.

IBM cheated.

Seriously. Of course a computer that fills a room, and is no more powerful than 
a microcomputer built around a single Pentium chip, is very much obsolete today.

But computers aren't obsolete. There was a difficult period when 8-bit and then 
early 16-bit microchips were cheap, but a more powerful computer still had to 
have its CPU built out of multiple integrated circuits.

Some microcomputers, instead of sitting on the desktop, are servers. IBM today 
builds servers that are more reliable than others, and which run System/370 
software. Servers aren't obsolete, and the 370 architecture is just as good an 
architecture to build chips around as the 68020 architecture - and a darn sight 
better than the 386 architecture.

So there's no reason for the boxes IBM builds, and sells as mainframes, to be 
considered obsolete. They're built with up-to-date technology, and they do 
things well that people still want done, and done well.

John Savard

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#153501

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2015-10-28 19:28 -0700
Message-ID<1f2767f2-2f72-46ac-bfdd-e3de83ff6e32@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#153495
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 6:51:23 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:

[snip]
> So there's no reason for the boxes IBM builds, and sells as mainframes, to be 
> considered obsolete. They're built with up-to-date technology, and they do 
> things well that people still want done, and done well.

Basically, some years ago they said people would no longer want the mainframe solutions, and instead want client-server.  It was predicted that the S/360 software (e.g. COBOL, CICS) would no longer be wanted.

Indeed, a substantial number of S/360 applications have been retired.  Some were old and easily replaced by a PC spreadsheet or database that was easier to use.  (They were written on S/360 since that was the company's computer at the time.)  Others were complex applications replaced by complex client server systems with perhaps hairy Java and Oracle.

However, as you said, it has turned out, "they do things well that people still want done, and done well."

Happy 51½ birthday S/360!

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#153487

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2015-10-28 21:34 +0000
Message-ID<n0rf1p02sgt@news4.newsguy.com>
In reply to#153475
On 2015-10-28, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:n0p7vr12cpd@news7.newsguy.com...
>
>> On 2015-10-27, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My theory is:  Things get easier and easier... until eventually those 
>>> things are *not* worth doing anymore.
>>
>> Being the cynic that I am, after watching what's happened to the industry,
>> I have an alternate theory: things get harder and harder... until 
>> eventually those things are not worth doing anymore.  (That's when
>> I throw out the newfangled solutions and go back to something that works.)
>
> Charlie, I think *my* theory makes more sense.  Something always starts out 
> being hard, like making a watch that will work.  Eventually, watches are 
> made very well.  Then the digital plastic watch phase and the quarts crystal 
> watches become cheap and take over. Now hardly anyone wears a watch at all. 
> In the beginning when things were hard, it was very important to get them to 
> work right.  Now that it's easy, no one cares.
>
> A similar development course can be traced for many things.

Aw, you missed my "cynic" warning above.  But there is a bit of truth to it.
Whenever I see someone pointing and clicking and pointing and clicking and
dragging and - damn, where did I drop it? - to do something I could do in
half a dozen keystrokes - while all the time proclaiming how _easy_ those
GUIs are to use, I wonder how much we've really advanced.

OK, here's a more practical example.  I used to do underwater photography
with a trusty old Nikonos V, and got results good enough to be published.
Yes, film has its drawbacks - you can't change a roll underwater, for instance.
So just before we went on a dive trip to Mexico I bought a housed point & shoot
camera.  It was no fun at all.  I had no TTL, I couldn't turn off the damned
auto-focus, and I wound up with a dreadful bunch of fuzzy, badly exposed
snapshots.  It was so frustrating trying to make the camera do what I
wanted that I retired from underwater photography.  I wasn't willing to
lay out big bucks for a new camera that might be able to do what I wanted.
Nor was I willing to climb that learning curve all over again.

It wasn't worth doing anymore.

I've noticed that more and more, the problem with technology is not so much
getting something to do what you want, as keeping the damned gadget from
doing what you don't want.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#153492

FromIbmekon <Ibmekon>
Date2015-10-28 22:11 +0000
Message-ID<gjh23bd8i7njfuul7a5saac472ismhqeol@4ax.com>
In reply to#153487
On 28 Oct 2015 21:34:49 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

<aside>

>I've noticed that more and more, the problem with technology is not so much
>getting something to do what you want, as keeping the damned gadget from
>doing what you don't want.

My current unfavourite is my bathroom/bedroom scales.

It seems not want to bother me with small changes in my weight of less
than a pound. 
In this case it measures correctly, checks against the last value, and
lies to me.


Carl Goldsworthy
--
I intend to live forever.
So far, so good.

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#153616

FromDavid Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com>
Date2015-10-30 15:59 +0000
Message-ID<n10457$irr$3@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#153492
On 28/10/2015 22:11, Ibmekon wrote:
> On 28 Oct 2015 21:34:49 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> <aside>
>
>> I've noticed that more and more, the problem with technology is not so much
>> getting something to do what you want, as keeping the damned gadget from
>> doing what you don't want.
>
> My current unfavourite is my bathroom/bedroom scales.
>
> It seems not want to bother me with small changes in my weight of less
> than a pound.
> In this case it measures correctly, checks against the last value, and
> lies to me.
>
>
> Carl Goldsworthy
> --
> I intend to live forever.
> So far, so good.
>
I have Weight Watchers scales. Expensive but show changes of 1/4 of a 
pound...

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#153622

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2015-10-30 16:31 +0000
Message-ID<9XMYx.809$CP7.258@fx11.iad>
In reply to#153616
David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> writes:
>On 28/10/2015 22:11, Ibmekon wrote:
>> On 28 Oct 2015 21:34:49 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <aside>
>>
>>> I've noticed that more and more, the problem with technology is not so much
>>> getting something to do what you want, as keeping the damned gadget from
>>> doing what you don't want.
>>
>> My current unfavourite is my bathroom/bedroom scales.
>>
>> It seems not want to bother me with small changes in my weight of less
>> than a pound.
>> In this case it measures correctly, checks against the last value, and
>> lies to me.
>>
>>
>> Carl Goldsworthy
>> --
>> I intend to live forever.
>> So far, so good.
>>
>I have Weight Watchers scales. Expensive but show changes of 1/4 of a 
>pound...

My WW scale has a display precision of one tenth of a pound.  The accuracy
on the other hand, is likely closer to a full pound.

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#153663

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2015-10-30 20:07 -0700
Message-ID<11860205-bd6a-4a4b-8ecd-6050408dfb61@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#153622
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 12:31:03 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> My WW scale has a display precision of one tenth of a pound.  The accuracy
> on the other hand, is likely closer to a full pound.

My WW displays only in 0.5 pound increments, but that's good enough for me.  As to accuracy, not helping is that the cat sneaks up behind me and puts his paws on it.

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#153671

From"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net>
Date2015-10-31 03:57 -0600
Message-ID<d9jhk6Fj34sU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#153622
"Scott Lurndal" wrote:

> My WW scale has a display precision of one tenth of a pound.  The accuracy
> on the other hand, is likely closer to a full pound.

I lost 8.96 grams per day in October! 

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#153673

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2015-10-31 10:20 +0000
Message-ID<20151031102054.30ed5772f3d0d48acc3e3020@eircom.net>
In reply to#153671
On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 03:57:25 -0600
"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
> 
> > My WW scale has a display precision of one tenth of a pound.  The
> > accuracy on the other hand, is likely closer to a full pound.
> 
> I lost 8.96 grams per day in October! 

	So a bit over half a pound in total.

	I don't really understand how anyone weighs themselves to that kind
of precision, the weight shown on my scales varies depending on where I put
my feet by more than that, and I can lose half a pound by having a good
penc.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#153674

From"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net>
Date2015-10-31 04:51 -0600
Message-ID<d9jkp7Fjs4vU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#153673
"Ahem A Rivet's Shot" wrote:

> "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
>>
>> > My WW scale has a display precision of one tenth of a pound.  The
>> > accuracy on the other hand, is likely closer to a full pound.
>>
>> I lost 8.96 grams per day in October!
>
> So a bit over half a pound in total.
>
> I don't really understand how anyone weighs themselves to that kind
> of precision, the weight shown on my scales varies depending on where I 
> put
> my feet by more than that, and I can lose half a pound by having a good
> penc.

Sometimes a double-precision number is no more accurate than a 
single-precision number. 

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#153675

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2015-10-31 07:08 -0400
Message-ID<414915095.467982073.688215.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#153673
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 03:57:25 -0600
> "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
>> 
>>> My WW scale has a display precision of one tenth of a pound.  The
>>> accuracy on the other hand, is likely closer to a full pound.
>> 
>> I lost 8.96 grams per day in October! 
> 
> 	So a bit over half a pound in total.
> 
> 	I don't really understand how anyone weighs themselves to that kind
> of precision, the weight shown on my scales varies depending on where I put
> my feet by more than that, and I can lose half a pound by having a good
> penc.
> 

I figure anything up to half a pound a day is just noise.

-- 
Pete

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#153682

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2015-10-31 12:29 +0000
Message-ID<20151031122946.bc496f250f47dde59633b1fa@eircom.net>
In reply to#153675
On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:08:13 -0400
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 03:57:25 -0600
> > "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> "Scott Lurndal" wrote:
> >> 
> >>> My WW scale has a display precision of one tenth of a pound.  The
> >>> accuracy on the other hand, is likely closer to a full pound.
> >> 
> >> I lost 8.96 grams per day in October! 
> > 
> > 	So a bit over half a pound in total.
> > 
> > 	I don't really understand how anyone weighs themselves to that
> > kind of precision, the weight shown on my scales varies depending on
> > where I put my feet by more than that, and I can lose half a pound by
> > having a good penc.
> > 
> 
> I figure anything up to half a pound a day is just noise.

	Drink a pint of BA and you've put on a pound and a quarter untill
you cvff.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#153680

FromDavid Hume <David.Hume@example.com>
Date2015-10-31 12:04 +0000
Message-ID<84bnbfutv6.fsf@example.com>
In reply to#153673
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:


> my feet by more than that, and I can lose half a pound by having a good
> penc.

A what?

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#153681

From"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net>
Date2015-10-31 06:11 -0600
Message-ID<d9jpgbFl16hU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#153680
"David Hume" wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>
>> my feet by more than that, and I can lose half a pound by having a good
>> penc.
>
> A what?

Those darn spell checkers introduce so much undecipherable noise.  My guess 
is pee. 

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