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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #150402 > unrolled thread
| Started by | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-08-25 13:24 -0700 |
| Last post | 2015-11-30 10:42 -0900 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 112 — 26 participants |
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very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-08-25 13:24 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2015-08-25 13:35 -0800
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 23:19 +0100
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-08-25 17:36 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Joe Morris" <j.c.morris@verizon.net> - 2015-08-25 19:41 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode tracymnelson@gmail.com - 2015-10-26 09:16 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-26 09:47 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-26 10:00 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-26 21:18 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-26 17:37 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 19:55 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-27 08:31 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-27 14:41 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 20:17 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:59 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:01 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-29 13:46 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-26 21:00 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-26 19:41 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 07:28 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 12:47 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-27 20:17 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-27 23:02 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 09:38 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 07:47 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-28 19:24 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 13:42 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:57 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:54 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-30 18:44 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-27 15:19 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-27 18:58 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 17:57 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-27 17:59 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-27 18:26 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-28 14:57 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-28 14:09 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:52 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:46 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:09 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-28 15:38 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 06:06 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 01:22 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-28 15:22 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 13:49 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-28 15:51 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:28 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:34 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2015-10-28 22:11 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:59 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 16:31 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-30 20:07 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 03:57 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 10:20 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 04:51 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-31 07:08 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 12:29 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> - 2015-10-31 12:04 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-31 06:11 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> - 2015-10-31 12:37 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-10-31 13:20 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 16:18 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-11-01 10:41 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-31 15:21 +0100
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-31 15:13 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-31 12:49 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-31 15:09 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-11-01 12:04 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-11-01 07:48 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-11-01 13:56 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-11-01 18:33 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-11-02 17:17 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2015-10-31 11:30 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-28 19:15 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 02:55 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-29 07:36 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 17:19 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-29 11:33 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-29 18:03 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-29 11:44 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 19:37 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-29 16:03 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2015-10-29 14:15 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 21:51 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 15:20 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-30 07:28 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-30 14:57 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-10-29 13:26 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-10-29 15:40 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 15:32 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-29 23:10 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-29 19:09 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-30 16:35 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 18:35 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-30 12:05 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-30 12:22 -0700
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-02 14:15 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-30 17:31 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-30 17:44 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-30 23:38 -0400
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-31 15:08 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-11-02 17:17 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> - 2015-11-03 16:44 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-11-05 15:28 -0600
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-11-05 17:05 -0500
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-26 22:12 +0100
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-11-16 18:48 -0800
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2015-11-25 16:00 +0000
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-11-30 09:43 -0800
Re: very basic tube questions--twin triode, "mu" rating; heptode floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2015-11-30 10:42 -0900
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 07:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b2c2eaff-f288-4c4c-884c-aebff632ef3e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153372 |
On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 10:41:40 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote: > I figure that an 1130 would be, at most, comparable to a 360/40. I couldn't > find an installation planning guide for it on Bitsavers, and the FE manual just > gave the voltages, not the power consumption. Power consumption and resultant heat generation would vary by installation depending on the peripherals and their controllers, all of which throw out their own heat. (I don't know if on S/360 core size would make a difference on power consumption and heat, such as between the a 64k model 40 and a 256k unit. But cores did generate heat, indeed, a challenge in those days was cooling high speed heavy-density core memory; they may have had to immerse the core array in oil.) > > I did find such a manual for the 360 - I had to Google for it, though; the > directory tree didn't lead me to it. It turns out to be in the FE directory, which makes sense. > > The 360/40, CPU only, smallest memory configuration, required 2.5 kVA of power, and produced heat in the amount of 7,000 BTU/hr. > > John Savard
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 12:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1e49f2e2-c8e5-4f60-a1af-dd537bad02f7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153377 |
On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 8:28:11 AM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > indeed, a challenge in those days was cooling high speed heavy-density core > memory; they may have had to immerse the core array in oil. This is true, but this is partly due to other factors in addition to the amount of heat energy old-fashioned core memory dissipates. Since individual cores were addressed by whether current ran down one wire, or two wires, going through a core, it was critical that the magnetic behavior of all the cores was nearly identical - and that it was what the circuitry driving the memory expected. Now, as it happens, the response of magnetic materials to applied magnetic fields is temperature dependent. So even though core memories performed better (when driven appropriately) the lower the temperature was, since a cooling system couldn't respond fast enough to changes of temperature to keep the cores at the exact temperature needed, they put heating coils in with the cores (usually in addition to a cooling system). This problem, though, was reduced considerably in severity when they developed new ferrite formulations for cores that included lithium. Advertisements for the Honeywell 300 computer proudly boasted that its core memory did not have to worry about temperature at all - I suspect that was overoptimistic, as later machines with such cores still did pay attention to controlling the temperature of the cores. John Savard
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 20:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n0om551122s@news6.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #153393 |
On 2015-10-27, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: > On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 8:28:11 AM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > >> indeed, a challenge in those days was cooling high speed heavy-density core >> memory; they may have had to immerse the core array in oil. > > This is true, but this is partly due to other factors in addition to the > amount of heat energy old-fashioned core memory dissipates. > > Since individual cores were addressed by whether current ran down one > wire, or two wires, going through a core, it was critical that the magnetic > behavior of all the cores was nearly identical - and that it was what the > circuitry driving the memory expected. There was a story in rec.humor.funny years ago... http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/87/14917.8.html -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 23:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n0ovq5$5a7$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #153372 |
On 27/10/2015 02:41, Quadibloc wrote: > On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 8:00:51 PM UTC-6, Jon Elson wrote: > >> Must have been one of the larger models. The /30 and /40 were not massive >> power consumers, but the /50 and up did start to get there. System 370s >> really gulped the power, though. > > I figure that an 1130 would be, at most, comparable to a 360/40. I couldn't > find an installation planning guide for it on Bitsavers, and the FE manual just > gave the voltages, not the power consumption. > > I did find such a manual for the 360 - I had to Google for it, though; the > directory tree didn't lead me to it. It turns out to be in the FE directory, which makes sense. > > The 360/40, CPU only, smallest memory configuration, required 2.5 kVA of power, and produced heat in the amount of 7,000 BTU/hr. > > John Savard > The 1130 I used had an IBM 1403 (I think, proper line printer any way) and "box" which I think was an modified IBM channel controller, was much bigger than the rest of the 1130. A bit like a big blue Tardis. Dave
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| From | Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 09:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20151028093816.3c19805f52ea8e7e881e56c0@eircom.net> |
| In reply to | #153415 |
On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 23:02:37 +0000 David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> wrote: > The 1130 I used had an IBM 1403 (I think, proper line printer any way) > and "box" which I think was an modified IBM channel controller, was much > bigger than the rest of the 1130. A bit like a big blue Tardis. Much the same as the one I used, that channel adaptor was *only* used for the 1403 printer which must have made it an expensive option, the 1132 printer must have been even worse than it sounds. Ours also had a 1442 card reader, a 1627 plotter, a paper tape reader (which I'm pretty sure wasn't an IBM one - it was fast), a paper tape punch and a double disc cabinet (same cartridges as the console). It was a fun machine to learn on. The paper tape was mainly used to provide access for the local schools, each school would send a bunch of programs through a teletype/modem link while the results of their last batch went back the same way. Anybody who could get to the machine used cards. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 07:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <77cbaafd-abca-42bf-8fb1-0519ce4550a3@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153431 |
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote: > > The 1130 I used had an IBM 1403 (I think, proper line printer any way) > > and "box" which I think was an modified IBM channel controller, was much > > bigger than the rest of the 1130. A bit like a big blue Tardis. > > Much the same as the one I used, that channel adaptor was *only* > used for the 1403 printer which must have made it an expensive option, the > 1132 printer must have been even worse than it sounds. Ours also had a 1442 > card reader, a 1627 plotter, a paper tape reader (which I'm pretty sure > wasn't an IBM one - it was fast), a paper tape punch and a double disc > cabinet (same cartridges as the console). It was a fun machine to learn on. > > The paper tape was mainly used to provide access for the local > schools, each school would send a bunch of programs through a > teletype/modem link while the results of their last batch went back the > same way. Anybody who could get to the machine used cards. The 1132 printer was extremely slow. Doing a READ and WRITE together was terribly slow. If I could go back, I'd like to run a program on an 1130 that would build up a table, then print the table. In this way, the read and write actions would be separated; maybe the printer would run a little faster. Our 1130 was used as a base for timesharing--it supported up to 15 terminals. It was slow in that service. If many users were on, it was terribly slow. While on the terminal, one had to hit both RET and LF, and then wait for a blip to come back before typing in the next line. After one year of that mess they bought an HP 2000 which was built for timesharing service and ran a heck of a lot faster, plus had a much more sophisticated BASIC. I have no idea of the respective hardware costs, and wonder what they were. The 1130 was supposed to be relatively cheap compared to other machines, which is why it was so popular, despite being so slow. I will note that one kid write a BASIC program with some heavy number crunching in it for a class assignment; more calculations than a student's program typically had. He said his program ran faster on the 1130 than on the HP. I don't know, but maybe once you got nuermic data past the lousy I/O and into the CPU, it could actually do something with it, which the 1130 was designed to do.
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| From | Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 19:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20151028192448.34d4cc0a3f44337b96c94efe@eircom.net> |
| In reply to | #153444 |
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:47:13 -0700 (PDT) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > Our 1130 was used as a base for timesharing--it supported up to 15 > terminals. Ye gods! Ours was strictly single user with decent peripherals and I still thought it was slow (especially the day I had to recreate the system disc). > It was slow in that service. If many users were on, it was > terribly slow. While on the terminal, one had to hit both RET and LF, > and then wait for a blip to come back before typing in the next line. imagination fails as to what an 1130 must be like with 15 users. > After one year of that mess they bought an HP 2000 which was built for > timesharing service and ran a heck of a lot faster, plus had a much more > sophisticated BASIC. Ours got replaced by an Eclipse with terminals and time sharing, better, faster and yet less fun. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 13:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1c15de00-7013-4286-8eb0-6f6d880198de@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153464 |
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:30:04 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote: > imagination fails as to what an 1130 must be like with 15 users. Whole solar systems could emerge. But I suspect the 1130 was cheaper to buy than the HP-2000. I think they intended to run batch jobs during offpeak with the 1130, but they did on the HP. The HP had a card reader and supported Fortran.
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| From | David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-30 15:57 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n1040v$irr$2@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #153444 |
On 28/10/2015 14:47, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote: > >>> The 1130 I used had an IBM 1403 (I think, proper line printer any way) >>> and "box" which I think was an modified IBM channel controller, was much >>> bigger than the rest of the 1130. A bit like a big blue Tardis. >> >> Much the same as the one I used, that channel adaptor was *only* >> used for the 1403 printer which must have made it an expensive option, the >> 1132 printer must have been even worse than it sounds. Ours also had a 1442 >> card reader, a 1627 plotter, a paper tape reader (which I'm pretty sure >> wasn't an IBM one - it was fast), a paper tape punch and a double disc >> cabinet (same cartridges as the console). It was a fun machine to learn on. >> >> The paper tape was mainly used to provide access for the local >> schools, each school would send a bunch of programs through a >> teletype/modem link while the results of their last batch went back the >> same way. Anybody who could get to the machine used cards. > > > The 1132 printer was extremely slow. Doing a READ and WRITE together was terribly slow. If I could go back, I'd like to run a program on an 1130 that would build up a table, then print the table. In this way, the read and write actions would be separated; maybe the printer would run a little faster. > > Our 1130 was used as a base for timesharing--it supported up to 15 terminals. It was slow in that service. If many users were on, it was terribly slow. While on the terminal, one had to hit both RET and LF, and then wait for a blip to come back before typing in the next line. > > After one year of that mess they bought an HP 2000 which was built for timesharing service and ran a heck of a lot faster, plus had a much more sophisticated BASIC. I have no idea of the respective hardware costs, and wonder what they were. The 1130 was supposed to be relatively cheap compared to other machines, which is why it was so popular, despite being so slow. > > I will note that one kid write a BASIC program with some heavy number crunching in it for a class assignment; more calculations than a student's program typically had. He said his program ran faster on the 1130 than on the HP. I don't know, but maybe once you got nuermic data past the lousy I/O and into the CPU, it could actually do something with it, which the 1130 was designed to do. > > there are some costs for an 1130 in the IBM archives. https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/1130/1130_intro.html
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| From | David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-30 15:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n103rp$irr$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #153431 |
On 28/10/2015 09:38, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote: > On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 23:02:37 +0000 > David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The 1130 I used had an IBM 1403 (I think, proper line printer any way) >> and "box" which I think was an modified IBM channel controller, was much >> bigger than the rest of the 1130. A bit like a big blue Tardis. > > Much the same as the one I used, that channel adaptor was *only* > used for the 1403 printer which must have made it an expensive option, the > 1132 printer must have been even worse than it sounds. Ours also had a 1442 > card reader, a 1627 plotter, a paper tape reader (which I'm pretty sure > wasn't an IBM one - it was fast), a paper tape punch and a double disc > cabinet (same cartridges as the console). It was a fun machine to learn on. > > The paper tape was mainly used to provide access for the local > schools, each school would send a bunch of programs through a > teletype/modem link while the results of their last batch went back the > same way. Anybody who could get to the machine used cards. > Yes almost identical to the one at Newcastle upon Type Polytechnic, except we mostly used ours as a remote HASP workstation to access the 360/67 and MTS at Newcastle upon Tyne University. I believe that our paper tape punch was used mainly for CNC tapes. Apparently we did some early modelling of CNC operation... Dave Wade
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| From | Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-30 18:44 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20151030184406.73058931ef2ba7debcca27c1@eircom.net> |
| In reply to | #153613 |
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:54:42 +0000 David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> wrote: > On 28/10/2015 09:38, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 23:02:37 +0000 > > David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> The 1130 I used had an IBM 1403 (I think, proper line printer any way) > >> and "box" which I think was an modified IBM channel controller, was > >> much bigger than the rest of the 1130. A bit like a big blue Tardis. > > > > Much the same as the one I used, that channel adaptor was *only* > > used for the 1403 printer which must have made it an expensive option, > > the 1132 printer must have been even worse than it sounds. Ours also > > had a 1442 card reader, a 1627 plotter, a paper tape reader (which I'm > > pretty sure wasn't an IBM one - it was fast), a paper tape punch and a > > double disc cabinet (same cartridges as the console). It was a fun > > machine to learn on. > > > > The paper tape was mainly used to provide access for the local > > schools, each school would send a bunch of programs through a > > teletype/modem link while the results of their last batch went back the > > same way. Anybody who could get to the machine used cards. > > > Yes almost identical to the one at Newcastle upon Type Polytechnic, The one I used was a Cambridgeshire College of Arts and Technology, which is now part of Anglia Ruskin University. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| From | "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 15:19 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n0om3t$oot$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #153371 |
"Jon Elson" <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote in message news:wtydnRda35tPR7PLnZ2dnUU7-SGdnZ2d@giganews.com... > hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > > >> >> One weekend I went in to work on our S/360 and forgot to turn on the a/c. >> It didn't take long for the computer room to get very warm. >> > Must have been one of the larger models. The /30 and /40 were not massive > power consumers, but the /50 and up did start to get there. System 370s > really gulped the power, though. >> Indeed, I wonder what a modern office consumes in a/c to cool down the PC >> that sits on everyone's desk, plus all the support network gear. > Modern PCs are quite a bit lower power. The gamers babble to each other > about 1000 W power supplies, but the typical REAL desktop machines rarely > use much over 100 W. Some muilt-chip servers do use more, of course. > > The two higher-end desktops in my computer room at home together draw less > power than my old MicroVAX-II. > At a PPoE, the financial department had a large IBM mainframe. This department also had a "tape picker". If a disk file "aged out", then it was transferred to a small piece of mag tape and place in some kind of pigeon hole. If later this file was accessed, the "tape picker" would have to restore the file to actual disk before you could use it. That could take between 2 and 5 minutes. Now I'm thinking that a little box of 5 or 6 multi-terrabyte disks could handle the whole thing with a minimum of fuss. Of course my time at the PPoE was 30 years ago. :-) My theory is: Things get easier and easier... until eventually those things are *not* worth doing anymore. -- numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| From | Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 18:58 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <upqdnfIKbIcnkq3LnZ2dnUU7-ROdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #153404 |
Charles Richmond wrote: > At a PPoE, the financial department had a large IBM mainframe. This > department also had a "tape picker". If a disk file "aged out", then it > was transferred to a small piece of mag tape and place in some kind of > pigeon > hole. If later this file was accessed, the "tape picker" would have to > restore the file to actual disk before you could use it. That could take > between 2 and 5 minutes. > That was an IBM 2321 data cell drive. Completely ingenious, and also completely Rube Goldberg! While they did hold a log of data that rarely needed access, they were NOT foolproof. You RARELY ever needed to touch it, so foolproof is not really the correct term. But, they would occasionally mispick a card and tear it up, and then you had a real mess. I think a LOT of people were VERY glad when the darn things were withdrawn from service. And, my understanding is that NO user installations begged IBM to continue support for them. Jon
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 17:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7f2abd0e-3b74-45fa-ae99-c8479baa8276@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153416 |
On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 5:58:52 PM UTC-6, Jon Elson wrote: > But, they would occasionally > mispick a card and tear it up, and then you had a real mess. And, of course, loss of data is the one intolerable thing in the mainframe world. IBM probably made the device because NCR had something similar in its CRAM device, and so they could not stand to see some other company offering a capability they didn't have. I didn't realize that this was what they meant by "tape picker" - I was envisaging a system for automated loading of 9-track tapes. Or that honeycomb device IBM made later on. John Savard
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 17:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8c6c8285-fab3-42e1-991c-7042da5209b4@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153419 |
On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 6:57:22 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote: > Or that honeycomb > device IBM made later on. I was thinking of the 3850. John Savard
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| From | hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-27 18:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <223685da-ded9-4452-ae9f-de0297106684@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #153419 |
On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 8:57:22 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote: > IBM probably made the device because NCR had something similar in its CRAM > device, and so they could not stand to see some other company offering a > capability they didn't have. If memory of the S/360 history book is accurate, some very large IBM customers were drowning in tape mount traffic. (A large company using 1600 bpi probably had many multi-reel files, adding to the mounting mess.) So, IBM developed a variety of automated tape/disk products over the years for both S/360 and 370. Later, people developed silos to automatically mount tape cartrdiges. FWIW, in 1979 a 370-158 shop had an operator full time just to mount and demount tapes as well as a tape library staff. Imagine the traffic in a large 168 installation.
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| From | "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 14:57 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n0r986$sbs$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #153419 |
"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message news:7f2abd0e-3b74-45fa-ae99-c8479baa8276@googlegroups.com... > > [snip...] [snip...] > [snip...] > > I didn't realize that this was what they meant by "tape picker" - I was > envisaging a system for automated loading of 9-track tapes. Or that > honeycomb > device IBM made later on. > The word "honeycomb" seems to touch something in my memory. I thin the honeycomb device is what I was refering to. I had thought that a cell in the honeycomb would hold a small length of tape. Help me out here... -- numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| From | "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 14:09 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <d9cobuFs6m2U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #153471 |
"Charles Richmond" wrote: > "Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message > news:7f2abd0e-3b74-45fa-ae99-c8479baa8276@googlegroups.com... >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> I didn't realize that this was what they meant by "tape picker" - I was >> envisaging a system for automated loading of 9-track tapes. Or that >> honeycomb >> device IBM made later on. >> > > The word "honeycomb" seems to touch something in my memory. I thin the > honeycomb device is what I was refering to. I had thought that a cell in > the honeycomb would hold a small length of tape. Help me out here... IIRC, pictures of the datacell made me think of a honeycomb. The "piece of tape" thing rings no bells for me.
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| From | Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 15:52 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <zrqdnVw__p6rqKzLnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #153474 |
Osmium wrote: > "Charles Richmond" wrote: > >> "Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message >> news:7f2abd0e-3b74-45fa-ae99-c8479baa8276@googlegroups.com... >>> >>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >>> >>> I didn't realize that this was what they meant by "tape picker" - I was >>> envisaging a system for automated loading of 9-track tapes. Or that >>> honeycomb >>> device IBM made later on. >>> >> >> The word "honeycomb" seems to touch something in my memory. I thin the >> honeycomb device is what I was refering to. I had thought that a cell in >> the honeycomb would hold a small length of tape. Help me out here... > > IIRC, pictures of the datacell made me think of a honeycomb. The "piece > of tape" thing rings no bells for me. The datacell drive had strips of magnetic media about the size of an IBM punch card. They were kept in a bunch of metal bins attached to a spindle. The spindle would rotate to the right position, the bin would be opened and a mechanism would reach inside and pick one strip via coded tabs on the strips. That strip would be pulled out and wrapped around a drum that would spin it. A tape head would select a track on the strip and read/write data to/from it. When down, the strip would be put back in the bin. The IBM 2321 data cell drive was made from 1964 to 1975. I REALLY doubt they sold many after about 1971 or so, when everybody knew they were just a lot of trouble. But, they DID have the ability to make off-line data available within about 5 seconds. In 1965, that was REALLY revolutionary. Each strip held 200K of data. One whole drive could store 400 MB. Jon
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| From | Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-10-28 15:46 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <adGdnbbt3JsorqzLnZ2dnUU7-I2dnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #153471 |
Charles Richmond wrote: > "Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message > news:7f2abd0e-3b74-45fa-ae99-c8479baa8276@googlegroups.com... >> >> [snip...] [snip...] >> [snip...] >> >> I didn't realize that this was what they meant by "tape picker" - I was >> envisaging a system for automated loading of 9-track tapes. Or that >> honeycomb >> device IBM made later on. >> > > The word "honeycomb" seems to touch something in my memory. I thin the > honeycomb device is what I was refering to. I had thought that a cell in > the honeycomb would hold a small length of tape. Help me out here... > The 3850 held a bunch of spools of wide magnetic tape. Each tape was on a spool a couple inches in diameter. The amount of tape on each spool was 64 feet. Each tape held 50 MB of data. Jon
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