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Enigma rotor made of PCBs

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  Enigma rotor made of PCBs davidmylastname@acm.org (David Griffith) - 2015-10-17 01:47 +0000
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-16 22:18 -0500
      Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-19 13:11 +0000
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2015-10-16 21:44 -0600
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-21 11:35 -0500
      Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-22 11:38 +0000
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-22 16:18 +0100
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-22 18:22 +0000
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-22 17:32 -0700
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-23 14:14 +1100
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-22 11:48 -0400
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-22 11:08 -0700
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-23 14:21 +1100
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-23 10:43 +0200
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-23 11:06 +0000
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 10:00 -0500
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-23 16:22 +0100
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-23 17:27 +0000
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-23 13:40 -0400
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-10-24 06:54 +0000
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:57 +0000
                    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-25 18:47 -0500
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-24 12:36 +1100
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-24 12:29 +1100
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 10:24 -0500
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-23 10:32 -0700
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 13:51 -0500
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:36 +0000
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-23 13:36 -0400
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-23 15:13 -0500
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2015-10-23 20:25 +0000
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 15:51 -0500
                    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 15:59 -0500
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 18:51 +0100
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-11-20 21:33 -0500
                    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-11-20 23:12 -0600
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-23 14:14 -0700
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-23 22:10 +0000
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-24 09:10 +0200
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-10-23 19:19 -0500
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-23 20:13 -0500
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-24 09:13 -0400
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:47 +0000
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-23 14:46 -0500
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 15:48 -0500
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs barrym95838@yahoo.com - 2015-10-22 23:40 -0700

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#153014 — Enigma rotor made of PCBs

I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma 
encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most 
complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the 
rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.

So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from 
multi-layer PCB?

-- 
David Griffith
davidmylastname@acm.org   <--- Put my last name where it belongs

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#153016

On 10/16/2015 8:47 PM, David Griffith wrote:
> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma 
> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most 
> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the 
> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
> 
> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from 
> multi-layer PCB?
> 
The electrical part doesn't seem like it would be difficult, even with
just a 2-sided PCB. All but one of the rotors seem to be basically a
ring of 26 contact pads on each side, with arbitrary (but fixed)
interconnections between the sides. (The reflector would only need a
single-sided PCB, and jumper wires on the non-clad side.) You might
need to bring one side out to a (smaller) ring on the other side and
use jumper wires, I suspect it's not topologically possible without,
though you could probably do that by sandwiching several PCBs
together. Achieving good electrical connections between the rotors
would be interesting. Might need a divider between the rotors to hold
spring-loaded contacts to ride against the rotors, since you wouldn't
have the (presumably) spring-loaded contact pins of the original. Or
look at how (older) rotary switch contacts are made.

I'd think it would be the mechanical stuff (including getting the
contacts to the rotors to work well) that would be most challenging.

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#153065

Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:
>On 10/16/2015 8:47 PM, David Griffith wrote:
>> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma 
>> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most 
>> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the 
>> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
>> 
>> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from 
>> multi-layer PCB?
>> 
>The electrical part doesn't seem like it would be difficult, even with
>just a 2-sided PCB. All but one of the rotors seem to be basically a
>ring of 26 contact pads on each side, with arbitrary (but fixed)
>interconnections between the sides. (The reflector would only need a
>single-sided PCB, and jumper wires on the non-clad side.) You might
>need to bring one side out to a (smaller) ring on the other side and
>use jumper wires, I suspect it's not topologically possible without,
>though you could probably do that by sandwiching several PCBs
>together. Achieving good electrical connections between the rotors
>would be interesting. Might need a divider between the rotors to hold
>spring-loaded contacts to ride against the rotors, since you wouldn't
>have the (presumably) spring-loaded contact pins of the original. Or
>look at how (older) rotary switch contacts are made.

This very closely describes various stepper wheels used in
electromechanical pinballs of the 60's and early 70's; complete
with the spring-loaded contacts.

scott

>
>I'd think it would be the mechanical stuff (including getting the
>contacts to the rotors to work well) that would be most challenging.

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#153017

davidmylastname@acm.org (David Griffith) writes:

> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma 
> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most 
> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the 
> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
>
> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from 
> multi-layer PCB?

Piece of cake; I'd have to refresh my memory, but IIRC a two-layer board
would do it easily.  I'd probably do a single board design that had
contacts and would accept jumpers, and then solder on wire jumpers to
create the different rotors required.

oshpark.com is who I use to fab my very-small-quantity boards.

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#153152

David Griffith wrote:

> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma
> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most
> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the
> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
> 
> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from
> multi-layer PCB?
> 
You ought to take a look at the work done by Tatjana van Vark in the 
Netherlands.  She built a crypto machine similar to an Enigma.

http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv1/pht10.html

She also has done some AMAZING other stuff, has a working Litton inertial 
measuring unit, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber is in 
her dining room.

Jon

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#153208

On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> David Griffith wrote:
>
>> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma
>> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most
>> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the
>> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
>> 
>> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from
>> multi-layer PCB?
>> 
> You ought to take a look at the work done by Tatjana van Vark in the 
> Netherlands.  She built a crypto machine similar to an Enigma.
>
> http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv1/pht10.html
>
> She also has done some AMAZING other stuff, has a working Litton inertial 
> measuring unit, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber is in 
> her dining room.


The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long

AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a 
Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was secure
communic                                                                              





                                         

-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#153212

"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>
> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was 
> secure
> communic

Legend has it that it was foul play by the Brits. Fearing the independence 
attempts by
parts of its Empire, Brit handed over the machines to the subjugated 
countries with the
assurance that it was foolproof, and, of course, not letting out that they 
could read all
the resulting diplomatic traffic.

Therefore, keepingthesecret was of importance to Brit

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#153226

On 2015-10-22, gareth <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> wrote:

> "Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
> news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>
>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>>
>> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
>> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was 
>> secure communic
>
> Legend has it that it was foul play by the Brits. Fearing the independence 
> attempts by parts of its Empire, Brit handed over the machines to the
> subjugated countries with the assurance that it was foolproof, and, of
> course, not letting out that they could read all the resulting diplomatic
> traffic.

I recall hearing similar speculation about DES.

However, I suspect the reason is somewhat more prosaic.  ISTR reading that
in the absence of explicit instructions, classified material automatically
bumps down one level every 10 years.  This means that anything marked
"top secret" would take 50 years to go all the way down to "unclassified".

> Therefore, keepingthesecret was of importance to Brit

Uh-oh, looks like they caught up with him.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#153234

On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 12:22:58 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
 
> I recall hearing similar speculation about DES.

I do recall reading some history that suggested that the initial permutation 
and inverse initial permutation, instead of being present in DES to simplify 
some initially-envisaged implementation, was present to fool the NSA into 
tolerating the existence of the algorithm as a government standard by making them 
think that the algorithm would not be disclosed publicly.

John Savard

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#153238

"gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> wrote in message 
news:n0aukf$n8q$1@dont-email.me...
> "Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
> news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>>
>> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
>> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was 
>> secure
>> communic
>
> Legend has it that it was foul play by the Brits. Fearing the independence 
> attempts by
> parts of its Empire, Brit handed over the machines to the subjugated 
> countries with the
> assurance that it was foolproof, and, of course, not letting out that they 
> could read all
> the resulting diplomatic traffic.

The problem with that line is that before they were
independent, there was no diplomatic traffic to read.

The Mau Mau etc didn’t have diplomatic traffic with anyone.

> Therefore, keepingthesecret was of importance to Brit
 

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#153213

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015, Greymaus wrote:

> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> David Griffith wrote:
>>
>>> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma
>>> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most
>>> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the
>>> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
>>>
>>> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from
>>> multi-layer PCB?
>>>
>> You ought to take a look at the work done by Tatjana van Vark in the
>> Netherlands.  She built a crypto machine similar to an Enigma.
>>
>> http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv1/pht10.html
>>
>> She also has done some AMAZING other stuff, has a working Litton inertial
>> measuring unit, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber is in
>> her dining room.
>
>
> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>
> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was secure
> communic
>
But a lot of that was kept secret.  R.V. Jones wrote "The Secret War" (I 
think I have the  title right) in the early seventies, he said something 
like it was the earliest such details could be revealed.

I thought they honestly did worry about something new happening, and if 
the old news got out, it might impact on future work.  So they put a 25 
year hold on it, enough time that techniques would change.

Forget about technical details, if you see the social work done on all of 
those secrets, that might cause others to be more careful.

   Michael

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#153225

On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 5:38:53 AM UTC-6, Greymaus wrote:

> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long

Actually, the real reason is not particularly sinister. The stansard rule, in 
both the US and UK is that everything crypro is so sensitive that it is only 
released after 50 years.

An exception to that was made in the case of the American solution of PURPLE in 
order to respond to persistent rumors that FDR deliberately suppressed advance 
knowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor in order to get the US into the war.

John Savard

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#153239

"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> David Griffith wrote:
>>
>>> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma
>>> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most
>>> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the
>>> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
>>>
>>> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from
>>> multi-layer PCB?
>>>
>> You ought to take a look at the work done by Tatjana van Vark in the
>> Netherlands.  She built a crypto machine similar to an Enigma.
>>
>> http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv1/pht10.html
>>
>> She also has done some AMAZING other stuff, has a working Litton inertial
>> measuring unit, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber is in
>> her dining room.
>
>
> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long

Basically because they wanted to continue to read the traffic that
others were doing after the war had ended, during the cold war.

If it had been clear what they could read, more secure communication
would have been used so they couldn’t read it.

> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was 
> secure
> communic

Not just the physical machine, the technique used to break
is also applicable to what is used to secure communication.

And not just second level countries either, there was an
immense amount of effort that went into reading the
communications of the USSR and the soviet bloc etc. 

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#153244

In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
>news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>
>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>
>Basically because they wanted to continue to read the traffic that
>others were doing after the war had ended, during the cold war.
>
>If it had been clear what they could read, more secure communication
>would have been used so they couldn’t read it.
>
>> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
>> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was 
>> secure
>> communic
>
>Not just the physical machine, the technique used to break
>is also applicable to what is used to secure communication.
>
>And not just second level countries either, there was an
>immense amount of effort that went into reading the
>communications of the USSR and the soviet bloc etc. 

One tidbit here; the Queen of the UK and a score of other
nations keeps her own crypto machines jealously guarded and
the UK is not involved, except as consultants for the 
secrecy.

The royals operate the cipher machines themselves, and no
servants are allowed in the room while this happens. This
is very unusual for royals; they usually have servants
doing everything for them.

The rationale is that she needs secure channels to all
her subject nations, none of which should eavesdrop on any
other.

-- mrr

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#153247

On 2015-10-23, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
> In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
>>news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>>
>>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>>
>
> One tidbit here; the Queen of the UK and a score of other
> nations keeps her own crypto machines jealously guarded and
> the UK is not involved, except as consultants for the 
> secrecy.
>
> The royals operate the cipher machines themselves, and no
> servants are allowed in the room while this happens. This
> is very unusual for royals; they usually have servants
> doing everything for them.
>
> The rationale is that she needs secure channels to all
> her subject nations, none of which should eavesdrop on any
> other.


I find all that hard to believe, an 80++year woman, and her
90++ old husband?. She really has no subjects any more, the 
`Commonwealth' is a group of (mosty white) countries that have gone their
seperate ways. There is supposadly an onionlke organization of countries
the the US share data, and the inner core is these countries(Canada, Australia,
New Zealand, the UK).

-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#153249

"Greymaus" wrote:

> On 2015-10-23, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>>>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>>>
>>
>> One tidbit here; the Queen of the UK and a score of other
>> nations keeps her own crypto machines jealously guarded and
>> the UK is not involved, except as consultants for the
>> secrecy.
>>
>> The royals operate the cipher machines themselves, and no
>> servants are allowed in the room while this happens. This
>> is very unusual for royals; they usually have servants
>> doing everything for them.
>>
>> The rationale is that she needs secure channels to all
>> her subject nations, none of which should eavesdrop on any
>> other.
>
>
> I find all that hard to believe, an 80++year woman, and her
> 90++ old husband?. She really has no subjects any more, the
> `Commonwealth' is a group of (mosty white) countries that have gone their
> seperate ways. There is supposadly an onionlke organization of countries
> the the US share data, and the inner core is these countries(Canada, 
> Australia,
> New Zealand, the UK).

I think he is only 90+, not 90++ :) 

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#153250

"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:d8v0cnFcrdmU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> I think he is only 90+, not 90++ :)

But he is a peculiar object

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#153254

On 2015-10-23, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Greymaus" wrote:
>
>> On 2015-10-23, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The rationale is that she needs secure channels to all
>>> her subject nations, none of which should eavesdrop on any
>>> other.
>>
>>
>> I find all that hard to believe, an 80++year woman, and her
>> 90++ old husband?. She really has no subjects any more, the
>> `Commonwealth' is a group of (mosty white) countries that have gone their
>> seperate ways. There is supposadly an onionlke organization of countries
>> the the US share data, and the inner core is these countries(Canada, 
>> Australia,
>> New Zealand, the UK).
>
> I think he is only 90+, not 90++ :) 
>

In his own mind, likely 19+ :) remember the Prince Philip email hack?

(Amazingly, he was at one of the WWII early sea battles)


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#153257

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Osmium wrote:

> "Greymaus" wrote:
>
>> On 2015-10-23, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>>>>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> One tidbit here; the Queen of the UK and a score of other
>>> nations keeps her own crypto machines jealously guarded and
>>> the UK is not involved, except as consultants for the
>>> secrecy.
>>> 
>>> The royals operate the cipher machines themselves, and no
>>> servants are allowed in the room while this happens. This
>>> is very unusual for royals; they usually have servants
>>> doing everything for them.
>>> 
>>> The rationale is that she needs secure channels to all
>>> her subject nations, none of which should eavesdrop on any
>>> other.
>> 
>> 
>> I find all that hard to believe, an 80++year woman, and her
>> 90++ old husband?. She really has no subjects any more, the
>> `Commonwealth' is a group of (mosty white) countries that have gone their
>> seperate ways. There is supposadly an onionlke organization of countries
>> the the US share data, and the inner core is these countries(Canada, 
>> Australia,
>> New Zealand, the UK).
>
> I think he is only 90+, not 90++ :) 
>
She isn't yet 90  either.  I was thinking of suggesting to my mother, who 
turned 92 in August, that she send a birthday card to the Queen next year 
on her 90th.  Kind of a reverse, the queen will send cards for certain 
epic dates in people's lives, though the standards are high enough that it 
eliminates most people.

Prince Philip is 94.  I was thinking he might be younger, that happens 
sometimes, but apparently not.

I hear the Queen won't take in any more corgis now, she's worried about 
tripping over them.

   Michael

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#153295

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:40:24 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>
> She isn't yet 90  either.  I was thinking of suggesting to my mother, who 
> turned 92 in August, that she send a birthday card to the Queen next year 
> on her 90th.  Kind of a reverse, the queen will send cards for certain 
> epic dates in people's lives, though the standards are high enough that it 
> eliminates most people.
>

The Palace sends cards for the 100th birthday and each year thereafter.
My mother is expecting her first next March...

-- 
Stan Barr     plan.b@bluesomatic.org

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