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Old gadgets that expected an owner

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  Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 16:24 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-02 18:16 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 18:47 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-02 21:48 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 21:51 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-02 22:47 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-03 03:16 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-02 22:46 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner gmc@metro.cx (Koen Martens) - 2026-06-03 07:02 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner gmc@metro.cx (Koen Martens) - 2026-06-04 07:04 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-02 18:29 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 18:47 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-02 19:44 -0300
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-03 03:11 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-03 01:52 -0300
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-03 05:37 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-04 11:47 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-04 16:30 -0300
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 22:30 +0000
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-s0f-this> - 2026-06-05 12:26 -0700
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-02 22:45 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-03 03:23 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Juancho <eternal@notreally.com> - 2026-06-07 00:00 +0200
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-06-02 19:09 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-02 19:33 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-02 22:04 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner gmc@metro.cx (Koen Martens) - 2026-06-03 06:22 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-03 06:50 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:05 -0700
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> - 2026-06-03 08:32 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 00:00 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-06-03 21:04 -0700
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:22 +0000
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:34 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 11:32 -0700
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2026-06-02 22:27 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> - 2026-06-03 08:47 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner poitras@pobox.com (Don Poitras) - 2026-06-03 09:30 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-03 18:08 +0000
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> - 2026-06-04 08:05 +0100
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-4me-this> - 2026-06-04 07:49 -0700
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-04 18:31 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-05 19:00 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-04 11:47 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 22:35 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-05 19:04 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-05 19:46 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-05 23:59 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner gmc@metro.cx (Koen Martens) - 2026-06-03 06:06 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-03 18:00 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Etheromania <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-06-07 20:07 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-06-07 20:41 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Etheromania <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-06-07 21:44 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-07 23:19 +0000
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Malcolm Purvis <malcolm@purvis.id.au> - 2026-06-10 19:57 +1000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-10 23:48 +0000
                  Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-11 13:39 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-07 23:15 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Etheromania <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-06-07 23:33 +0000
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-08 00:01 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Etheromania <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-06-08 01:11 +0000
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-06-08 12:06 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Etheromania <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-06-08 12:46 +0000
                  Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-06-08 17:18 +0000
                  Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 00:19 +0000
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Freddy1X <freddy1X@indyX.netX> - 2026-06-03 14:26 -0400
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-03 23:54 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-04 03:37 -0300
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 06:44 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Jonathan Lamothe <jonathan@jlamothe.net> - 2026-06-04 09:38 -0400
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-06-04 14:30 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-06-04 09:42 -0700
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 22:39 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Etheromania <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-06-07 20:20 +0000
                  Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-06-08 12:31 +0000
                    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-08 18:08 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-04 16:25 -0300
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-06-04 19:51 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-06-04 20:34 +0000
                  Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-06-05 08:25 -0700
                    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-05 15:56 +0000
                    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-05 22:47 -0300
                      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 10:26 +0000
                        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-06 10:56 +0000
                          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-06 11:13 +0000
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-05 00:47 -0300
                Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-05 12:53 +0000
                  Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-06-05 23:12 -0300
              Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-06-05 07:21 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-06-04 07:10 +0000
          Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 08:13 +0000
            Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 14:34 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Thomas Prufer <prufer.public@mnet-online.de.invalid> - 2026-06-03 09:35 +0200
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-06-03 09:08 +0100
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 00:03 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Jonathan Lamothe <jonathan@jlamothe.net> - 2026-06-03 16:43 -0400
      Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-06-04 04:13 +0000
        Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 04:23 +0000
    Re: Old gadgets that expected an owner Juancho <eternal@notreally.com> - 2026-06-06 23:40 +0200

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#234959

On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 23:33:20 GMT, Etheromania wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Jun 2026 23:15:32 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:07:49 GMT, Etheromania wrote:
>>
>>> The comment itself was actually directed at students and intended
>>> to indicate that they shouldn't waste time studying it because it
>>> wouldn't be on the test.
>>
>> Not sure how that could be, given that AT&T Bell Labs never
>> entertained “students” who sat “tests”.
>>
>> Sure, there were outside places like Universities using the Unix
>> sources (up to the 6th Edition, anyway) in CS courses for study
>> purposes, but none of them contributed comments -- or indeed, any
>> other patches -- back to Bell Labs ...
>>
> its from the lions commentary which was written by a professor and
> sent back to bell labs.

John Lions would never have written anything so stupid in a book meant
to *explain* how the Unix kernel worked.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Commentary_on_the_UNIX_Operating_System#%22You_are_not_expected_to_understand_this%22>

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#234963

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:

> On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 23:33:20 GMT, Etheromania wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 7 Jun 2026 23:15:32 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:07:49 GMT, Etheromania wrote:
> >>
> >>> The comment itself was actually directed at students and intended
> >>> to indicate that they shouldn't waste time studying it because it
> >>> wouldn't be on the test.
> >>
> >> Not sure how that could be, given that AT&T Bell Labs never
> >> entertained “students” who sat “tests”.
> >>
> >> Sure, there were outside places like Universities using the Unix
> >> sources (up to the 6th Edition, anyway) in CS courses for study
> >> purposes, but none of them contributed comments -- or indeed, any
> >> other patches -- back to Bell Labs ...
> >>
> > its from the lions commentary which was written by a professor and
> > sent back to bell labs.
> 
> John Lions would never have written anything so stupid in a book meant
> to *explain* how the Unix kernel worked.
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Commentary_on_the_UNIX_Operating_System#%22You_are_not_expected_to_understand_this%22>
youre right i edited the wikipedia article to make a nonsensical shitpost

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#234964

On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 23:33:20 +0000, Etheromania wrote:

> Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:
> 
>> On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:07:49 GMT, Etheromania wrote:
>> 
>> > The comment itself was actually directed at students and intended to
>> > indicate that they shouldn't waste time studying it because it
>> > wouldn't be on the test.
>> 
>> Not sure how that could be, given that AT&T Bell Labs never entertained
>> “students” who sat “tests”.
>> 
>> Sure, there were outside places like Universities using the Unix
>> sources (up to the 6th Edition, anyway) in CS courses for study
>> purposes, but none of them contributed comments -- or indeed, any other
>> patches -- back to Bell Labs ...
> its from the lions commentary which was written by a professor and sent
> back to bell labs.

But the comment was in the accompanying source code. Which was written by 
Dennis Ritchie.

From the man himself, on his preserved home page; see the second heading.

 http://cm.bell-labs.co/who/dmr/odd.html

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#234966

Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> posted:

> On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 23:33:20 +0000, Etheromania wrote:
> 
> > Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:
> > 
> >> On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:07:49 GMT, Etheromania wrote:
> >> 
> >> > The comment itself was actually directed at students and intended to
> >> > indicate that they shouldn't waste time studying it because it
> >> > wouldn't be on the test.
> >> 
> >> Not sure how that could be, given that AT&T Bell Labs never entertained
> >> “students” who sat “tests”.
> >> 
> >> Sure, there were outside places like Universities using the Unix
> >> sources (up to the 6th Edition, anyway) in CS courses for study
> >> purposes, but none of them contributed comments -- or indeed, any other
> >> patches -- back to Bell Labs ...
> > its from the lions commentary which was written by a professor and sent
> > back to bell labs.
> 
> But the comment was in the accompanying source code. Which was written by 
> Dennis Ritchie.
> 
> From the man himself, on his preserved home page; see the second heading.
> 
>  http://cm.bell-labs.co/who/dmr/odd.html
> 

and on the page:

So we tried to explain what was going on. "You are not expected to understand this" 
was intended as a remark in the spirit of "This won't be on the exam," rather than as 
an impudent challenge.

Im not sure why it has an entry on wikipedia in the lions book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Commentary_on_the_UNIX_Operating_System#%22You_are_not_expected_to_understand_this%22

after reviewing it again it doesn't attribute the comment directly to the lions book 
and merely explains where to find it.

After reading richie's comments, its also not clear that he literally meant it was on 
the exam, but that perhaps was meant to convey that the code is dense and
not worth anyone's time to figure out.

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#234968

On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 12:46:09 +0000, Etheromania wrote:

> Im not sure why it has an entry on wikipedia in the lions book
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
A_Commentary_on_the_UNIX_Operating_System#%22You_are_not_expected_to_understand_this%22
> 
> after reviewing it again it doesn't attribute the comment directly to
> the lions book and merely explains where to find it.

I agree. It helps that I have an original copy of the Lions book, as well 
as the reprint a couple of decades later!

(the original was two books, one with the commentary and one with the 
source code; the intention was that you could have them side by side while 
reading)

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#234970

On Mon, 08 Jun 2026 12:46:09 GMT, Etheromania wrote:

> Im not sure why it has an entry on wikipedia in the lions book
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Commentary_on_the_UNIX_Operating_System#%22You_are_not_expected_to_understand_this%22
>
> after reviewing it again it doesn't attribute the comment directly
> to the lions book and merely explains where to find it.

On page 41 of aforesaid tome:

    The question is if the values stored in “u.u_ssav” at line 2284
    are the same as values stored in “u.u_rsav” at line 2281, how did
    they get to be different?

    Presumably this is what “you are not expected to understand” (line
    2238) ... clearly “xswap” should be investigated ... the trail
    finally ends at Chapter Fifteen ... in the meantime you may wish
    to investigate for yourself so that you may join the “2238” club
    that much sooner.

Sometimes it helps to actually look things up, doesn’t it ...

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#234868

Koen Martens wrote:

> TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
>> What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you
>> like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
> 
> Not really tools, but I have a collection of older homecomputers from the
> 70s/80s/90s. Some of them share the characteristics you list in that they
> came with manuals that had the complete schematics, theory of operation,
> assembly listings of any software in ROM, pinouts for every connector etc.
> 
> You could and were encouraged to understand every little corner of the
> machine. Build your own extensions or modifications to the base system.
> I still enjoy using and fixing these machines. None of the layers
> and layers of abstraction that hide the inner workings like on modern
> computing.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Koen
> 

My TRS model 100 was purchased with a service manual.  It became my first 
device controller when I used the information in the manual to interface the 
expansion connector on the bottom to my own circuits.  Multi line display, 
real keyboard, and battery backed memory were a boon.  

In other news, the GE toaster that I recieved in 1976 is still working and 
does fast work.  The simple controls( two of them ) require no instruction.  
If you want to move the darkness slider up to 10, it allows you to turn your 
bread slices into 18" flames coming out of the slots( Yes, I did do that. ).

Freddy,
toasting like a real man.

-- 
Dust with powdered sugar to prevent sticking.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/|  I may be demented                          \|
/|                      but I'm not crazy!     \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
*    SPAyM trap:  there is no X in my address   *

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#234870

On Wed, 03 Jun 2026 14:26:58 -0400, Freddy1X wrote:

> In other news, the GE toaster that I recieved in 1976 is still
> working and does fast work.

“Red Dwarf” predicted the future of that:

    Talky Toaster: “Anyone like any toast?”
    Lister: “I don’t want any toast, and he doesn’t want any toast. In
        fact, no-one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever.
        No toast.”
    Talky Toaster: “How about a muffin?”
    Lister: “Or muffins! We don’t like muffins around here! We want no
        muffins, no toast, no tea-cakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or
        bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato
        cakes and no hot cross buns, and definitely no smeggin’
        flapjacks.”
    Talky Toaster: “Aaahh, so you’re a waffle man!”

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#234878

Freddy1X <freddy1X@indyX.netX> writes:

> In other news, the GE toaster that I recieved in 1976 is still working and 
> does fast work.  The simple controls( two of them ) require no instruction.  
> If you want to move the darkness slider up to 10, it allows you to turn your 
> bread slices into 18" flames coming out of the slots( Yes, I did do that. ).

My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.  Had a
replacement cord in the 50s and I replaced it again just a few years
ago, with the heavy duty cord from a defunct power tool.  Also required
a minor repair several years ago but I had a piece of nichrome wire on
hand to do it with.

No controls so yes, flames are possible but I've never done worse than
lightly charred.  

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#234879

On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:

> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.

Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.

That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
come out underdone.

Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.

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#234888

Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
>
> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
>
> That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
> previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
> come out underdone.
>
> Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.

This has been out for a while, but in case anyone hasn't seen it, it
feels relevant to this thread:

https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y

They don't make 'em like they used to, apparently.

-- 
Regards,
Jonathan Lamothe
https://jlamothe.net - PGP: 9CF2CE03EBF08E8C8B66C3660198463E3CF3FFD1
I � Unicode

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#234889

In article <87bjdqe881.fsf@posteo.de>,
Jonathan Lamothe  <jonathan@jlamothe.net> wrote:
>Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
>>
>> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
>>
>> That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
>> previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
>> come out underdone.
>>
>> Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.
>
>This has been out for a while, but in case anyone hasn't seen it, it
>feels relevant to this thread:
>
>https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y
>
>They don't make 'em like they used to, apparently.
>

How to make Toast:
Electrical Engineering vs. Computer Science

      Once upon a time, in a kingdom not far from here, a
king summoned two of his advisors for a test. He showed
them both a shiny metal box with two slots in the top, a
control knob, and a lever. "What do you think this is?"

      One advisor, an engineer, answered first. "It is a
toaster," he said. The king asked, "How would you design
an embedded computer for it?" The engineer replied, "Using
a four-bit microcontroller, I would write a simple program
that reads the darkness knob and quantizes its position to
one of 16 shades of darkness, from snow white to coal black.
The program would use that darkness level as the index to a
16-element table of initial timer values. Then it would turn
on the heating elements and start the timer with the initial
value selected from the table. At the end of the time delay,
it would turn off the heat and pop up the toast. Come back
next week, and I'll show you a working prototype."

      The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately
recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He
said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are
also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is
really a breakfast food cooker. As the subjects of your kingdom
become more sophisticated, they will demand more capabilities.
They will need a breakfast food cooker that can also cook
sausage, fry bacon, and make scrambled eggs. A toaster that only
makes toast will soon be obsolete. If we don't look to the
future, we will have to completely redesign the toaster in just
a few years."

      "With this in mind, we can formulate a more intelligent
solution to the problem. First, create a class of breakfast foods.
Specialize this class into subclasses: grains, pork, and poultry.
The specialization process should be repeated with grains divided
into toast, muffins, pancakes, and waffles; pork divided into
sausage, links, and bacon; and poultry divided into scrambled
eggs, hard- boiled eggs, poached eggs, fried eggs, and various
omelet classes."

      "The ham and cheese omelet class is worth special attention
because it must inherit characteristics from the pork, dairy,
and poultry classes. Thus, we see that the problem cannot be
properly solved without multiple inheritance. At run time, the
program must create the proper object and send a message to the
object that says, 'Cook yourself.' The semantics of this message
depend, of course, on the kind of object, so they have a different
meaning to a piece of toast than to scrambled eggs."

      "Reviewing the process so far, we see that the analysis
phase has revealed that the primary requirement is to cook any
kind of breakfast food. In the design phase, we have discovered
some derived requirements. Specifically, we need an object-oriented
language with multiple inheritance. Of course, users don't want
the eggs to get cold while the bacon is frying, so concurrent
processing is required, too."

      "We must not forget the user interface. The lever that
lowers the food lacks versatility, and the darkness knob is
confusing. Users won't buy the product unless it has a
user-friendly, graphical interface. When the breakfast cooker
is plugged in, users should see a cowboy boot on the screen.
Users click on it, and the message 'Booting UNIX v.8.3' appears
on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product
gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on
the foods they want to cook." 

      "Having made the wise decision of specifying the software
first in the design phase, all that remains is to pick an
adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An
Intel 80386 with 8MB of memory, a 30MB hard disk, and a VGA
monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking,
object oriented language that supports multiple inheritance
and has a built-in GUI, writing the program will be a snap.
(Imagine the difficulty we would have had if we had foolishly
allowed a hardware-first design strategy to lock us into a 
four-bit microcontroller!)."

      The king wisely had the computer scientist beheaded, and
they all lived happily ever after.

-- 
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#234893

On 6/4/26 07:30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <87bjdqe881.fsf@posteo.de>,
> Jonathan Lamothe  <jonathan@jlamothe.net> wrote:
>> Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
>>>
>>> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
>>>
>>> That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
>>> previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
>>> come out underdone.
>>>
>>> Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.
>>
>> This has been out for a while, but in case anyone hasn't seen it, it
>> feels relevant to this thread:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y
>>
>> They don't make 'em like they used to, apparently.
>>
> 
> How to make Toast:
> Electrical Engineering vs. Computer Science
> 
>        Once upon a time, in a kingdom not far from here, a
> king summoned two of his advisors for a test. He showed
> them both a shiny metal box with two slots in the top, a
> control knob, and a lever. "What do you think this is?"
> 

[snip]
"As the subjects of your kingdom become more sophisticated, they will 
demand more capabilities."

The king should have also consulted a marketdroid, because to him this 
would look like a feature of the engineer's proposal. In a year or two 
they could sell the newer model that also did wafflles. etc.

> 

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#234902

On 4 Jun 2026 14:30:26 GMT, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> The king wisely had the computer scientist beheaded, and they all
> lived happily ever after.

Fortunately, that was the same computer scientist who, in an alternate
universe, would have gone on to invent NNTP and Usenet. Since that no
longer never did exist, there was no way to spread cautionary tales
like this around. Except by pinning murky photocopies to office doors,
which nobody (apart from graduate students) looked at anyway.

And so the rest of the world never heard about this, and they all
lived happily ever after.

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#234949

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) posted:

> ERROR "unexpected byte sequence starting at index 99: '\xE2'" while decoding:
> 
> In article <87bjdqe881.fsf@posteo.de>,
> Jonathan Lamothe  <jonathan@jlamothe.net> wrote:
> >Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> >
> >> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
> >>
> >>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
> >>
> >> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
> >>
> >> That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
> >> previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
> >> come out underdone.
> >>
> >> Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.
> >
> >This has been out for a while, but in case anyone hasn't seen it, it
> >feels relevant to this thread:
> >
> >https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y
> >
> >They don't make 'em like they used to, apparently.
> >
> 
> How to make Toast:
> Electrical Engineering vs. Computer Science
> 
> Users click on it, and the message 'Booting UNIX v.8.3' appears
> on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product
> gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on
> the foods they want to cook." 
> 
> adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An
> Intel 80386 with 8MB of memory, a 30MB hard disk, and a VGA
> monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking,

Having a really hard time pinning down when this could have been written
When they say Unix 8.3 do they mean Bell Labs Research Unix?
Because by the time VGA was a thing they were on RU-9

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#234965

In article <1780863612-19817@newsgrouper.org>,
Etheromania  <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) posted:
>
>> ERROR "unexpected byte sequence starting at index 99: '\xE2'" while decoding:
>> 
>> In article <87bjdqe881.fsf@posteo.de>,
>> Jonathan Lamothe  <jonathan@jlamothe.net> wrote:
>> >Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>> >
>> >> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
>> >>
>> >> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
>> >>
>> >> That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
>> >> previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
>> >> come out underdone.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.
>> >
>> >This has been out for a while, but in case anyone hasn't seen it, it
>> >feels relevant to this thread:
>> >
>> >https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y
>> >
>> >They don't make 'em like they used to, apparently.
>> >
>> 
>> How to make Toast:
>> Electrical Engineering vs. Computer Science
>> 
>> Users click on it, and the message 'Booting UNIX v.8.3' appears
>> on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product
>> gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on
>> the foods they want to cook." 
>> 
>> adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An
>> Intel 80386 with 8MB of memory, a 30MB hard disk, and a VGA
>> monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking,
>
>Having a really hard time pinning down when this could have been written
>When they say Unix 8.3 do they mean Bell Labs Research Unix?
>Because by the time VGA was a thing they were on RU-9

The particular page I pulled it from goes back to 2006

https://web.archive.org/web/20060909110208/https://web.cs.wpi.edu/~gogo/humor/hum_toast.html

but I seem to recall seeing from some time well before that.
-- 
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#234969

On 2026-06-08, Ted Nolan <tednolan> <ted@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:

> In article <1780863612-19817@newsgrouper.org>,
> Etheromania  <user19817@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) posted:
>>
>>> How to make Toast:
>>> Electrical Engineering vs. Computer Science
>>> 
>>> Users click on it, and the message 'Booting UNIX v.8.3' appears
>>> on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product
>>> gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on
>>> the foods they want to cook." 
>>> 
>>> adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An
>>> Intel 80386 with 8MB of memory, a 30MB hard disk, and a VGA
>>> monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking,
>>
>> Having a really hard time pinning down when this could have been written
>> When they say Unix 8.3 do they mean Bell Labs Research Unix?
>> Because by the time VGA was a thing they were on RU-9
>
> The particular page I pulled it from goes back to 2006
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20060909110208/https://web.cs.wpi.edu/~gogo/humor/hum_toast.html
>
> but I seem to recall seeing from some time well before that.

I dug out the hard-copy books of rec.humour.funny jokes that
I sent away for years ago.  I found it in the 1990 edition.
The king had the computer scientist thrown in the moat
in that version, but it's otherwise identical.

It's credited to Paul A. Vixie <vixie@decwrl.UUCP>,
and a heading line reads:

From: TLE::DIEWALD "Means, Motive, and Opportunity 14-Jun-1990 0958"

There are some Donald Trump jokes in the same book.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  No artificial
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  intelligence was
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  used in the creation
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  of this post.

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#234896

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
> 
>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
> 
> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.

No, paying-attention based. Same tech as used by my wintertime
toaster, the top of the wood-fired kitchen range.

> That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
> previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
> come out underdone.
> 
> Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.

If there were a timer, I'd have to remember all the setting, different
for, say,  Milk & Potato Bread versus Russian Black Bread.  Paying
attention is fungible.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#234898

According to Mike Spencer  <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>:
>
>Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>> 
>>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
>> 
>> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
>
>No, paying-attention based. Same tech as used by my wintertime
>toaster, the top of the wood-fired kitchen range.

Ah, that kind of toaster.  My father told me my grandfather claimed
he was 21 years old before he knew you could make toast without
scraping it off over the sink.  That would have been in about 1897.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#234899

On Thu, 04 Jun 2026 19:51:10 +0000, John Levine wrote:

> According to Mike Spencer  <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>:
>>
>>Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>> 
>>>> My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
>>> 
>>> Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
>>
>>No, paying-attention based. Same tech as used by my wintertime toaster,
>>the top of the wood-fired kitchen range.
> 
> Ah, that kind of toaster.  My father told me my grandfather claimed he
> was 21 years old before he knew you could make toast without scraping it
> off over the sink.  That would have been in about 1897.

Ours is clockwork based.

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