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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #219533 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-11-01 13:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 156 — 29 participants |
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Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 13:52 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-01 21:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 19:27 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-02 05:19 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-01 17:38 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2021-11-02 00:21 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 19:09 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-02 00:11 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-02 06:17 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2021-11-02 10:16 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 00:27 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 07:26 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 19:58 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 21:34 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 09:51 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:37 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:13 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:22 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:22 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 12:05 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 08:20 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:02 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:26 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:25 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 19:10 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 21:43 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:53 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:38 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:30 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 18:23 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:37 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Churchillian version John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 20:02 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:14 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:26 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:47 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:17 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 21:50 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-06 19:07 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 11:31 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 15:14 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 16:45 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:43 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:05 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 20:13 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-05 14:09 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:53 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 20:04 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 23:52 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 05:13 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:16 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> - 2021-11-04 07:17 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:47 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 20:34 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-m46-this> - 2021-11-05 07:08 -0800
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-07 15:43 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 16:17 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 22:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-04 19:21 -0300
Re: Who Knew ? Leonard Blaisdell <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> - 2021-11-05 05:46 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-05 04:01 -0300
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:29 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:12 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 21:02 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-11-04 00:01 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:09 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:49 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:16 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-04 17:31 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 13:04 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:58 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:47 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:07 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:42 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:53 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:33 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 10:06 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2021-11-06 15:38 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:39 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:33 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 12:17 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 14:45 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 15:28 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 18:52 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:54 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:07 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-06 08:26 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:05 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:04 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 18:32 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-06 19:25 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-07 11:20 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:55 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:15 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-07 23:44 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 15:39 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-11-08 17:06 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) - 2021-11-09 19:06 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 09:51 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-08 10:52 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 19:14 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-08 12:09 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:38 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-09 15:30 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 14:57 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-11 15:03 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-11 17:02 -1000
Re: Alternate Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-08 22:22 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 18:07 -0500
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-09 01:58 +0000
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 23:17 -0500
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-09 10:02 -0500
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:51 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:35 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 09:09 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2021-11-14 18:45 +0100
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 12:39 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-15 00:43 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-16 08:58 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-16 16:57 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 10:54 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-17 14:16 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 14:32 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 05:01 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:48 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:46 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:26 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-04 23:51 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:37 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:54 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-05 13:49 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:08 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:17 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:46 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Page 6 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 Next page →
| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-06 14:45 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <0uidogh7meualdon597t7asf7r5m2v5qr1@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219661 |
On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote: >On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke ><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>wrote: >> >>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >>>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >>>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >>>>> never happened. >>>> >>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there >>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him? >>>> >>> >>>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 >>>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably >>>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. >> >>Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due >>to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the >>defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of >>where the carriers were. > >He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN >aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more. And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed when attacking warships to give two examples.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-06 15:28 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n7pdog921mugrlcn2t3e5mebpckukn8nk0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219664 |
On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> >wrote: > >>On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke >><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>>>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>>>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>>>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >>>>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >>>>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >>>>>> never happened. >>>>> >>>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there >>>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him? >>>>> >>>> >>>>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 >>>>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably >>>>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. >>> >>>Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due >>>to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the >>>defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of >>>where the carriers were. >> >>He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN >>aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more. > >And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter >piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed >when attacking warships to give two examples. They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros. Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in combat air against Zeros.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-06 18:52 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <hh1eogt611l0rjj5q9q73lpo38kudja88m@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219666 |
On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 15:28:40 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote: >On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke ><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> >>wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke >>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>>>>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>>>>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>>>>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >>>>>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >>>>>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >>>>>>> never happened. >>>>>> >>>>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there >>>>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 >>>>>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably >>>>>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. >>>> >>>>Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due >>>>to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the >>>>defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of >>>>where the carriers were. >>> >>>He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN >>>aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more. >> >>And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter >>piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed >>when attacking warships to give two examples. > >They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew >thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros. That was six months after Pearl Harbor and the Buffalo was already being retired. Remember, the Japanese _lost_ Midway and lost badly. >Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in >WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in >combat air against Zeros. That's the flip side. Nobody on the US side had any clue how good the Japanese were at a lot of things.
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| From | D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-07 08:54 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <g1qfogt17fha00jkad8pdcsliu4rm443fb@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219668 |
On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 18:52:27 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 15:28:40 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> >wrote: > >>On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke >><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke >>>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>>>>>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>>>>>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>>>>>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >>>>>>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >>>>>>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >>>>>>>> never happened. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there >>>>>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 >>>>>>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably >>>>>>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. >>>>> >>>>>Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due >>>>>to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the >>>>>defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of >>>>>where the carriers were. >>>> >>>>He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN >>>>aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more. >>> >>>And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter >>>piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed >>>when attacking warships to give two examples. >> >>They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew >>thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros. > >That was six months after Pearl Harbor and the Buffalo was already >being retired. Remember, the Japanese _lost_ Midway and lost badly. And yet, an entire Marine squadron lost their lives due to those obsolecent aircraft. >>Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in >>WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in >>combat air against Zeros. > >That's the flip side. Nobody on the US side had any clue how good the >Japanese were at a lot of things. The Flying Tigers sent information back to the Department of Defense about the Zeros. The informaiton was supposedly lost.
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-07 10:07 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n9qfogp1nrn7jm7kejp4cogfvjig2hnnkq@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219678 |
On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 08:54:06 -0600, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote: >On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 18:52:27 -0400, J. Clarke ><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 15:28:40 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> >>wrote: >> >>>On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke >>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke >>>>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>>>>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>>>>>>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>>>>>>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>>>>>>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >>>>>>>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >>>>>>>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >>>>>>>>> never happened. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there >>>>>>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 >>>>>>>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably >>>>>>>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. >>>>>> >>>>>>Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due >>>>>>to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the >>>>>>defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of >>>>>>where the carriers were. >>>>> >>>>>He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN >>>>>aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more. >>>> >>>>And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter >>>>piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed >>>>when attacking warships to give two examples. >>> >>>They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew >>>thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros. >> >>That was six months after Pearl Harbor and the Buffalo was already >>being retired. Remember, the Japanese _lost_ Midway and lost badly. > >And yet, an entire Marine squadron lost their lives due to those >obsolecent aircraft. That was only one of the things that was wrong. They had tactical issues as well. And it wasn't an entire squadron. >>>Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in >>>WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in >>>combat air against Zeros. >> >>That's the flip side. Nobody on the US side had any clue how good the >>Japanese were at a lot of things. > >The Flying Tigers sent information back to the Department of Defense >about the Zeros. The informaiton was supposedly lost. It never existed. The Flying Tigers never encountered the Zero. The Zero was a navy fighter, the army that the Flying Tigers were fighting had a different type. It was equally bad news though. I think it's generally agreed that the Buffalo was a piece of crap--why belabor the point?
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-06 08:26 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <87o86xuomc.fsf@localhost> |
| In reply to | #219645 |
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes: > The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I > guess 80 years is long enough that I can talk about this > dispassionately. I probably won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without > anger. After 9/11, the U.S. Got Almost Everything Wrong. A mission to rid the world of "terror" and "evil" led America in tragic directions. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/after-911-everything-wrong-war-terror/620008/ 9/11 Had Nothing to Do with Afghanistan https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/9-11-had-nothing-to-do-with-afghanistan/ The Afghanistan Papers: A Secret History of the War https://www.amazon.com/Afghanistan-Papers-Secret-History-War-ebook/dp/B08VJLJ56L/ Democratic senators increase pressure to declassify 9/11 documents related to Saudi role in attacks https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/566547-democratic-senators-increase-pressure-to-declassify-9-11-documents Democratic senators and families of victims of the 9/11 attacks called on Thursday for the Biden administration to declassify and make available key documents related to Saudi Arabia's role in the terrorist attacks, ahead of the 20th anniversary commemorating the tragedy. ... snip ... ... from truth is stranger than fiction and law of unintended consequences that come back to bite you, much of the radical Islam & ISIS can be considered our own fault, former CIA director and VP Bush in the 80s https://www.amazon.com/Family-Secrets-Americas-Invisible-Government-ebook/dp/B003NSBMNA/ pg292/loc6057-59: There was also a calculated decision to use the Saudis as surrogates in the cold war. The United States actually encouraged Saudi efforts to spread the extremist Wahhabi form of Islam as a way of stirring up large Muslim communities in Soviet-controlled countries. (It didn't hurt that Muslim Soviet Asia contained what were believed to be the world's largest undeveloped reserves of oil.) ... snip ... Saudi radical extremist Islam/Wahhabi loosened on the world ... bin Laden & 15of16 9/11 were Saudis (some claims that 95% of extreme Islam world terrorism is Wahhabi related) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism Mattis somewhat more PC (political correct) https://www.amazon.com/Call-Sign-Chaos-Learning-Lead-ebook/dp/B07SBRFVNH/ pg21/loc349-51: Ayatollah Khomeini's revolutionary regime took hold in Iran by ousting the Shah and swearing hostility against the United States. That same year, the Soviet Union was pouring troops into Afghanistan to prop up a pro-Russian government that was opposed by Sunni Islamist fundamentalists and tribal factions. The United States was supporting Saudi Arabia's involvement in forming a counterweight to Soviet influence. ... snip ... and internal CIA https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Record-Edward-Snowden-ebook/dp/B07STQPGH6/ pg133/loc1916-17: But al-Qaeda did maintain unusually close ties with our allies the Saudis, a fact that the Bush White House worked suspiciously hard to suppress as we went to war with two other countries. ... snip ... The Accumulated Evil of the Whole: That time Bush and Co. made the September 11 Attacks a Pretext for War on Iraq https://www.juancole.com/2021/09/accumulated-september-pretext.html Before the Iraq invasion, the cousin of white house chief of staff Card ... was dealing with the Iraqis at the UN and was given evidence that WMDs (tracing back to US in the Iran/Iraq war) had been decommissioned. the cousin shared it with (cousin, white house chief of staff) Card and others ... then is locked up in military hospital, book was published in 2010 (4yrs before decommissioned WMDs were declassified) https://www.amazon.com/EXTREME-PREJUDICE-Terrifying-Story-Patriot-ebook/dp/B004HYHBK2/ NY Times series from 2014, the decommission WMDs (tracing back to US from Iran/Iraq war), had been found early in the invasion, but the information was classified for a decade http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html CIA Director Colby wouldn't approve the "Team B" analysis (exaggerated USSR military capability) and Rumsfeld got Colby replaced with Bush, who would approve "Team B" analysis (justifying huge DOD spending increase), after Rumsfeld replaces Colby, he resigns as white house chief of staff to become SECDEF (and is replaced by his assistant Cheney) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B former CIA director H.W. is VP, he and Rumsfeld are involved in supporting Iraq in the Iran/Iraq war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War including WMDs (note picture of Rumsfeld with Saddam) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war VP and former CIA director repeatedly claims no knowledge of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair because he was fulltime administration point person deregulating financial industry ... creating S&L crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis along with other members of his family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis#Silverado_Savings_and_Loan and another http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE0D81E3BF937A25753C1A966958260 In the early 90s, H.W. is president and Cheney is SECDEF. Sat. photo recon analyst told white house that Saddam was marshaling forces to invade Kuwait. White house said that Saddam would do no such thing and proceeded to discredit the analyst. Later the analyst informed the white house that Saddam was marshaling forces to invade Saudi Arabia, now the white house has to choose between Saddam and the Saudis. https://www.amazon.com/Long-Strange-Journey-Intelligence-ebook/dp/B004NNV5H2/ ... roll forward ... Bush2 is president and presides over the huge cut in taxes, huge increase in spending, explosion in debt, the economic mess (70 times larger than his faster's S&L crises) and the forever wars, Cheney is VP, Rumsfeld is SECDEF and one of the Team B members is deputy SECDEF (and major architect of Iraq policy). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz turn of century, the military-industrial complex had wanted a war so badly that corporate reps were telling former eastern block countries that if they voted for IRAQ2 invasion in the UN, they would get membership in NATO and (directed appropriation) USAID (can *ONLY* be used for purchase of modern US arms, aka additional congressional gifts to MIC complex not in DOD budget). From the law of unintended consequences, the invaders were told to bypass ammo dumps looking for WMDs, when they got around to going back, over a million metric tons had evaporated (showing up later in IEDs) https://www.amazon.com/Prophets-War-Lockheed-Military-Industrial-ebook/dp/B0047T86BA/ ... kicking hundreds of thousands of former soldiers out on the streets spawned ISIS ... and bypassing the ammo dumps (looking for fictitious/fabricated WMDs) gave them over a million metric tons. Ghost Riders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Riders-Baghdad-Soldiers-Civilians-ebook/dp/B014PWVUAC/ pg111/loc2179-82: The backstory to all this is well reported. The Bush administration appointed hundreds of politically loyal neoconservative bureaucrats to run postwar Iraq, including the top civilian official--L. Paul Bremer. Bremer, heavily influenced by Iraqi exiles like Ahmed Chalabi and supported by Vice President Dick Cheney, implemented a policy of de-Baathification. pg111/loc2193-95: On 16 April 2003, Bremer, against the advice of Colin Powell's State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency, disbanded the Iraqi Army. 16 This seemingly simple decision placed a few hundred thousand unemployed young men back on the street with no effective reintegration strategy. pg171/loc3246-49: All this talk of "what-ifs" and lost Surge opportunities ignores one salient, if uncomfortable, fact: ISIS is an outgrowth of our own invasion. Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF--as we gleefully named it) was more than just an awful euphemism; it spelled catastrophe--and chaos--for most Iraqis. ... snip ... -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 22:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnsobalc.e5k.Greymaus@dmaus.org> |
| In reply to | #219628 |
On 2021-11-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote: > Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >> >> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >> > > I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the > Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be > secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which > never happened. > > > I note that the Japanese navy are building their first carrier since WWII -- greymausg@mail.com That's not a mousehole!
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1170105043.657845483.046290.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #219641 |
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote: > On 2021-11-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>> >>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>> >> >> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >> never happened. >> >> >> > > I note that the Japanese navy are building their first carrier since > WWII > > They’ve resurrected the name Kaga for the first one. I hope things turn out better this time. -- Pete
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 12:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <58997517.657831759.035278.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #219573 |
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote: > On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: >> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote: >> >>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was >>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation: >> >>>> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders >>>> of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to >>>> drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, >>>> or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people >>>> can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you >>>> have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists >>>> for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same >>>> in every country. >> >> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly. >> >> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland, >> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them. > > The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to > attack poland, but it was a real problem. > > Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire, > which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers > were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr > area, did very well since. >> >> The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having >> invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by >> Germany, would give it a strategic advantage. >> >> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. > > What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to > Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was > not. Currently reading _Midway_ by the Japanese officer who led the attack on Pearl Harbor, and he said oil was a bigger problem than steel. > > (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build > superbattleships which were by then outdated) > >> >> So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime, >> it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful >> ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate, >> but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars. >> >> John Savard > War is an evil, cruel thing. Remember the Delphic prophesy > > "If you go to war, a great empire will be destroyed" > -- Pete
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| From | Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 18:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20211104183240.6d9032677d2a41b4a6e9de75@eircom.net> |
| In reply to | #219568 |
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: > Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly. Hardly self-exculpatory, he was essentially admitting this: > The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland, > as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them. Nothing in his statement suggested that the truth was required to achieve the ends, only that the ends were simple to achieve by making the right kind of statements true or not. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
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| From | 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-06 19:25 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <sm76a8$1uca$2@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #219568 |
On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote: [...] > Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no idea how war actually worked in those days. Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means. Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins. What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved. When you see "coalition" forces of multiple countries, this means the country they are attacking has failed to follow the agreed war theatre plan. They go in and take out the persons who reneged on the plan (Saddam, Gadafi, Taliban) then divide the spoils. Occasionally someone rises to power who says, "I'm no longer working with your new world order," so the coalition forces of "liberators" invade to take that person out, and force the country back into the economic plan. The elites and aristocrats on all sides in the conflict agree to war long in advance, and agree how they are going to reduce the population, and divide up the economic spoils, before the saber-rattling theatre begins. The commies in the state department, the Iranian Ayatolas, the Israeli leaders, the Russians, are all on the same team. Everything that you see is theatre. They all have the same goals. You're just cattle to them, to be decieved, used, and culled in engineered and well-planned conflicts. Before the USA invades a country they spend a decade or more infiltrating the target country with their agents and provocateurs, to destablize the country, then create pretextual acts for causus belli. If the USA really ever condsidered Russia its enemy, there would have been zero diplomatic relations, and USA would have had its own Atlantic curtain blocking out all access to the country, to protect the people. The same way that cops infiltrate protests as agent provocateurs, the war hawks infiltrate countries years in advance of planned wars, to agitate circumstances to bring the war about. Meanwhile you think it is your team vs their team. It's all theatre, from all sides involved. Yes it is this cynical, and yes, all your leaders are this evil. -- ──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━┓── ┌────────────────────────┐ ┌────────┐ ──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │ ─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │ ─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━━┛─ └────────────────────────┘ └────────┘
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| From | gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-07 11:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <sm8cpb$ffi$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #219669 |
On 07/11/2021 00:25, 711 Spooky Mart wrote: > ... Occasionally someone > rises to power who says, "I'm no longer working with your new world > order," so the coalition forces of "liberators" invade to take that > person out, and force the country back into the economic plan. The aggression of the French towards the British following from Brexit?
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| From | D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-07 08:55 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <75qfogdqmtj23a21uo0ontic2dnka41lsj@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219669 |
On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote: >On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote: > >[...] > >> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. > >But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no >idea how war actually worked in those days. > >Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means. >Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins. > >What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of >any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the >result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part >of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved. Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-07 10:15 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ntqfogt9il6r45kng2llrpbsujs6cr0ofu@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219679 |
On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 08:55:36 -0600, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote: >On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> >wrote: >>On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >> >>[...] >> >>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. >> >>But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no >>idea how war actually worked in those days. >> >>Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means. >>Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins. >> >>What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of >>any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the >>result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part >>of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved. > >Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory. It pretty much is. I would like to see "711" show the communications between Roosevelt and the Japanese that were instrumental in this "planning and orchestration". I think it's fairly well established that Roosevelt wanted to get the US into the war, but "planned and orchestrated Pearl Harbor" is rather overstating the case. Whether the miscommunication between the War Department and Short and Kimmel was deliberate or mere incompetence is another story.
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| From | 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-07 23:44 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <smadcn$1a7u$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #219679 |
On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote: > On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> > wrote: >> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >> >> [...] >> >>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. >> >> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no >> idea how war actually worked in those days. >> >> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means. >> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins. >> >> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of >> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the >> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part >> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved. > > Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory. Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks _never_ conspire. They're all angels, right? Davos. G8. Bilderberg. UN Security Council. NATO. World Bank. BIS. Countless think tanks. What do you think these thugs are doing? Don't ask Don Quixote. The pirates put up pretty colored flags in place of the Jolly Roger, so there's nothing to see here. "Conspiracy theory" is a psychopolitical demonization term used by these very gangs of thugs. Read General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." Then see what tune you are singing. Also read Sun Tzu's art of war. The general achieves then maintains control of the terrain by use of spies (and provacateurs). A successful general defeats his enemy before going to battle with him, by manufacturing the factions that will do battle, and getting them all to do useless things. Once conquest is achieved, the only way to maintain that power is permanent war and revolution, vide Von Clauzewitz' "War is politics by other means." Otherwise some strappers may gain the momentum necessary to challenge the reigning power. To prevent this constant conflict is agitated, to constantly redirect popular energy to movements and resistance that goes nowhere. The communists called this controlling both sides of a conflict. Once generals have achieved an objective over a conquered population, they must maintain the 'peace' by constantly embroiling all sides in manufactured conflicts. This is the "divide and conquer" strategy, sometimes also called "Cloward and Piven strategy." This is the communist precept of "permanent revolution." This is the Hegelian Dialectic as described by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto. This is exactly what your rulers are doing. They are putting on a pageant for you to take at face value, so you will tilt at windmills. -- ──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━┓── ┌────────────────────────┐ ┌────────┐ ──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │ ─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │ ─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━━┛─ └────────────────────────┘ └────────┘
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| From | Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-08 15:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnsoih4q.3bi.Greymaus@dmaus.org> |
| In reply to | #219685 |
On 2021-11-08, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote: > On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote: >> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> >> wrote: >>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>> >>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. > > Once generals have achieved an objective over a conquered population, > they must maintain the 'peace' by constantly embroiling all sides in > manufactured conflicts. This is the "divide and conquer" strategy, > sometimes also called "Cloward and Piven strategy." This is the > communist precept of "permanent revolution." This is the Hegelian > Dialectic as described by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto. > > This is exactly what your rulers are doing. They are putting on a > pageant for you to take at face value, so you will tilt at windmills. > Any General staff will have plans for the most unlikely scenarios, at least they should. Joe Biden wanders away and cannot be found? Dust off the joe-biden-gets-lost file! -- greymausg@mail.com That's not a mousehole!
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| From | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-08 17:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <smblfh$1pk$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de> |
| In reply to | #219687 |
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> schrieb: > Joe Biden wanders away and cannot be found? Lorenzo Smythe to the rescue!
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| From | lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-09 19:06 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <87r1bo2513.fsf@cluon.com> |
| In reply to | #219689 |
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes: > Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> schrieb: > >> Joe Biden wanders away and cannot be found? > > Lorenzo Smythe to the rescue! I re-read that just a few weeks ago. -- for email s/aba/c/g
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| From | D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-08 09:51 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <ephiogp8p97vlf962s1qd762fnu9pi2ad9@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219685 |
On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 23:44:36 -0600, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote: >On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote: >> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> >> wrote: >>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>> >>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. >>> >>> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no >>> idea how war actually worked in those days. >>> >>> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means. >>> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins. >>> >>> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of >>> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the >>> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part >>> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved. >> >> Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory. > >Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks >_never_ conspire. They're all angels, right? > >Davos. G8. Bilderberg. UN Security Council. NATO. World Bank. BIS. >Countless think tanks. What do you think these thugs are doing? Don't >ask Don Quixote. > >The pirates put up pretty colored flags in place of the Jolly Roger, so >there's nothing to see here. > >"Conspiracy theory" is a psychopolitical demonization term used by these >very gangs of thugs. > >Read General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." Then see what tune you >are singing. It is a conspiracy theory until you provide proof/evidence. I've read books by both Allied and Axis leaders and generals, and lower ranks. No collusion.
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-08 10:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <44689088.658086474.757082.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #219685 |
711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote: > On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote: >> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> >> wrote: >>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>> >>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. >>> >>> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no >>> idea how war actually worked in those days. >>> >>> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means. >>> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins. >>> >>> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of >>> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the >>> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part >>> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved. >> >> Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory. > > Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks > _never_ conspire. They're all angels, right? If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely different outcome. -- Pete
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