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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #156571 > unrolled thread

Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union)

Started byhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
First post2016-01-12 18:53 -0800
Last post2016-01-14 14:02 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 383 — 39 participants

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Contents

  Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 18:53 -0800
    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 16:32 -0500
      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-13 13:40 -0800
        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2016-01-13 17:04 -0500
        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 17:11 -0500
        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-13 16:10 -0600
          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-13 14:23 -0800
            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 18:52 -0500
              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-13 17:20 -0800
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-14 08:03 -0500
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-14 14:20 -0800
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-17 03:37 -0600
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:07 -0500
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-18 15:11 +0000
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-14 14:12 +0000
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-01-14 08:27 -0700
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-14 14:26 -0800
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-16 16:21 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-16 14:59 -0800
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-15 14:51 +0000
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-15 16:50 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-15 17:53 +0000
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-15 19:38 +0100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-15 11:15 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-15 15:52 -0500
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-15 14:00 -0800
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-17 03:53 -0600
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 12:03 +0000
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-15 11:11 -0800
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-16 14:09 +0000
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-16 08:41 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-16 09:10 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 07:46 +1100
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 20:04 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-16 19:18 -0800
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 23:34 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:15 -0800
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 15:33 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-16 22:51 -0600
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 16:15 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-16 22:31 -0800
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:03 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:03 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:24 -0800
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 15:49 -0600
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 13:59 -0800
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 10:31 +1100
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:50 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 17:46 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 13:36 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 22:36 -0500
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 19:46 -0800
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 06:20 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-20 10:09 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-20 13:27 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-20 10:11 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 05:56 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:35 -0500
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 10:35 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:45 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 19:13 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:34 -0800
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:40 -0600
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 13:33 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:27 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:36 -0600
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 19:08 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-22 12:29 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-22 10:56 -0800
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-22 19:08 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-22 11:22 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-22 20:00 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-22 12:43 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-23 09:07 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-22 14:24 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-23 09:11 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-23 11:27 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-24 11:14 -0600
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-19 17:22 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:47 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-20 14:04 +0000
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:38 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-21 14:12 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:15 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 11:47 +1100
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-21 11:54 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:52 -0800
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:29 -0600
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:39 -0600
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-23 14:46 +0000
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-23 17:14 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-23 18:50 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 04:25 +1100
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-23 14:44 +0000
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-23 16:54 +0000
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-23 15:01 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 07:45 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-24 15:07 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-24 10:43 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-24 11:21 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-24 11:36 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-24 20:23 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-26 14:21 +0100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Orange" <oq7755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 04:33 +1100
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-25 04:55 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 07:34 +1100
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 04:19 +1100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-16 16:46 -0800
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 03:45 +1100
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-16 15:32 -0500
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-16 20:57 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 09:54 +1100
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 20:08 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 13:57 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 23:33 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 16:09 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 00:40 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 17:40 +1100
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 07:19 +0000
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 19:18 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:40 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:12 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:59 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:19 +1100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 19:41 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-25 13:09 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-25 14:55 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-25 11:22 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-25 16:04 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-26 09:55 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-25 19:41 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-25 19:46 -0800
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-25 20:31 -0800
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 06:42 -0500
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 11:39 -0600
                                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 19:23 -0500
                                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 21:42 -0600
                                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-27 08:27 +0000
                                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 06:19 -0500
                                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-28 15:56 -0600
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-26 17:43 -0800
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-26 16:05 +1100
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-25 19:40 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 14:19 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-17 19:10 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 19:27 -0500
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-17 23:45 -0500
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 00:54 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 17:02 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 16:30 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 18:17 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 19:24 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-01-17 08:18 -0600
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:21 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:45 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:34 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:51 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-20 14:12 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-20 17:13 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-21 14:47 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 11:11 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:40 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-21 14:47 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 11:10 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:41 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-21 20:35 +0000
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:49 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:41 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 10:40 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-21 20:37 +0000
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-21 16:02 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 18:42 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-22 13:29 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2016-01-22 21:09 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-21 16:04 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-22 13:55 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:16 -0800
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 18:34 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:36 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 12:14 +0000
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:49 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:57 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:19 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-17 15:26 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 12:02 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:24 +1100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 18:13 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 10:35 +1100
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-18 12:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 08:53 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-19 13:37 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 16:32 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 11:41 +1100
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 19:56 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 21:12 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-19 00:07 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 14:06 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-19 07:36 -0500
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-19 13:37 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-19 15:47 -0500
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:20 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:32 -0600
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 14:11 +1100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-19 10:15 +0100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 20:41 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 07:03 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 10:34 -0600
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-19 07:59 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 10:19 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:16 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-20 06:21 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-20 11:41 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-20 12:07 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 04:53 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-20 20:16 +0000
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 07:46 +1100
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-20 15:01 -0600
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 08:17 +1100
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 17:29 -0600
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-20 21:22 +0000
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 08:52 +1100
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-21 11:46 +0000
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 07:02 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 10:33 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:36 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-19 14:24 +0000
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 12:01 -0500
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:23 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:37 +1100
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:34 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:34 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-17 11:42 +0000
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:54 -0500
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 07:09 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 07:26 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:52 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:08 +0000
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-17 15:50 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:58 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-17 19:08 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 19:26 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-17 19:08 -0600
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:33 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 10:32 -0600
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-21 17:41 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-22 03:38 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-22 17:34 -0800
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-23 05:06 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-23 15:29 -0800
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-25 02:15 +0000
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:20 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-18 08:53 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-18 10:22 +0100
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-18 09:58 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-18 07:45 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 16:38 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 17:59 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 11:42 +1100
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 20:37 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 14:20 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-18 07:45 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 04:18 +1100
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-18 18:51 +0100
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-19 00:41 -0400
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-18 23:58 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-19 07:36 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-19 14:27 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-19 14:38 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-19 18:33 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-19 16:28 -0500
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 13:57 -0800
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-19 16:46 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-21 17:50 -0800
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 21:43 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:53 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-19 22:14 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 17:35 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-21 07:21 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:26 -0800
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:31 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:52 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 16:36 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-19 19:27 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:59 -0800
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 17:54 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:01 -0800
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:49 -0600
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 11:01 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-19 11:19 -0600
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:30 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:32 -0800
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-18 19:06 -0600
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:39 -0600
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:57 -0500
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:02 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 15:40 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 15:55 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 15:57 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 19:37 -0600
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-25 13:05 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-24 21:59 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-16 22:57 -0600
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 16:17 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:27 -0800
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-19 23:24 +0000
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:43 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:10 -0800
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-17 08:15 +0000
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:42 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-17 15:40 +0000
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:24 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:36 -0800
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-19 20:47 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-19 16:28 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-20 08:18 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:21 -0600
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-18 15:08 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 11:15 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-18 17:44 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 19:08 -0600
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-16 17:07 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 09:56 +1100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-16 16:30 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-17 15:26 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 05:13 +1100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-19 13:36 -0600
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-19 13:37 -0600
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 14:35 -0600
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2016-01-21 17:05 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-21 12:18 -0500
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:35 -0600
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-22 13:55 +0000
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 17:26 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-15 22:20 +0000
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-16 10:42 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 06:04 -0500
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-16 11:39 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 07:23 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-16 13:09 +0100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 03:41 +1100
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-14 11:02 -0800
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 11:56 -0800
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 18:57 -0500
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 16:08 -0800
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 18:03 -0800
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 21:41 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-15 14:51 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com> - 2016-01-15 15:43 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-16 14:09 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 15:06 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 17:53 -0500
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-15 07:04 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-15 19:29 +1100
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 06:43 -0500
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-15 15:52 -0500
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2016-01-14 16:00 -0900
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 15:05 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:04 -0600
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 21:17 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-19 07:57 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 19:53 -0600
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 15:01 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 17:53 -0500
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-14 21:17 +0000
              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-13 18:08 -0800
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 21:25 -0500
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 07:31 -0800
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-14 18:46 +0100
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 10:43 -0800
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 20:00 -0600
              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-14 00:31 -0800
            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-17 03:30 -0600
      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-14 01:35 +0000
      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-14 14:02 +0000

Page 5 of 20 — ← Prev page 1 … 3 4 [5] 6 7 … 20  Next page →


#157499

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-24 11:14 -0600
Message-ID<id1aab9pr1dv9ta2t28naa05dcr6blg497@4ax.com>
In reply to#157413
On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:27:36 -0600, Dave Garland
<dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:

>On 1/23/2016 9:11 AM, JimP wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:24:56 -0500, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
>> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2016, JimP wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>>>> <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>>>>> @gmail.com says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>>>>>>>> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>>>>>>>> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>>>>>>> so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>>>>>>> Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the
>>>>> Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was
>>>>> using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and
>>>>> the IS-3 in production.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without
>>>>> much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
>>>> punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
>>>> could stand up to them.
>>>>
>>>> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
>>>> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
>>>> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
>>>> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
>>>> should have been shot.
>>>>
>>> What was Donald Sutherland's line in "Kelly's Heroes"?  Something about
>>> the only place a specific German tank was vulnerable was from behind?
>>>
>>>     Michael
>>
>> Yes. Five shermans take on one tiger. 2-3 crews get killed while the
>> other 2 try to get behind it and fire into its rear armor.
>>
>The American attitude was, we produced lots of Shermans, and we had 
>lots of crews. Shermans were reliable and cheap. Tigers were few and 
>costly.
>
>Of course, the Sherman was designed for rolling support of infantry, 
>it wasn't designed (nor particularly suited.. underarmored and 
>undergunned) for tank to tank battles. Crews tried to improvise 
>additional armor but that increased the weight and reliability 
>suffered. It wasn't until close to the end of the war that the 
>better-suited Pershing tanks began to appear.

But unit commanders used the Shermans in tank vs. tank battles. The
M-8 tank destroyer, with one inch of frontal armor, was also used in
tank battles. It had a bigger gun than the Sherman, but poor armor.
One documentary I've watched talked to the M-8 tank destroyer unit
commanders and they tried to avoid getting in tank battles unless they
could get in turret down by getting behind a hill and just poke up
their turrets,

-- 
JimP.

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#157060

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-01-19 17:22 -0500
Message-ID<n7mcqj$ceb$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#157053
Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:

> On 19-Jan-16 14:24, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> Dave Garland wrote:
>>> The USSR suffered far more damage from WW II than any of the
>>> western allies. The USSR was the primary target of the Germans, and
>>> threw everything they had against them (materials and bodies). And
>>> (not without reason) the USSR feared that the US would attack them
>>> after WW II.
>> 
>> While the USSR feared the US would attack them after WW II, that fear
>> was utterly groundless.
>
> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
> that a US president might have done so.
>
> After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things settled
> into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most
> peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.
>
> Unfortunately, religious fanatics are inherently immune to logic, so we
> need to find another way to deal with them--both at home and abroad.
>
>> Yes, the USSR suffered terrible damage and loss of live, but it made 
>> no difference.  If Stalin ordered them to go war, they would go to 
>> war.
>
> Stalin didn't _want_ a war, but he had good reason to be paranoid after
> being betrayed by Hitler; he trusted MAD more than NATO's promises of
> non-aggression, just like we trusted MAD more than his promises.
>
> Reagan's strategy of goading the Soviets into spending themselves into
> bankruptcy was ingenious.  Too bad his successors didn't understand they
> were supposed to end that after the USSR collapsed and instead have all
> gone looking for new enemies to replace them.

Oh, his successors understood alright.  Remember the talk about
a peace dividend?

But if you're a big corporation making money selling weapons, you're
going to find a way to keep sales growing.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#157080

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-19 18:47 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.3108952d14b40110989e4a@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157060
In article <n7mcqj$ceb$4@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> 
> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
> 
> > On 19-Jan-16 14:24, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >> Dave Garland wrote:
> >>> The USSR suffered far more damage from WW II than any of the
> >>> western allies. The USSR was the primary target of the Germans, and
> >>> threw everything they had against them (materials and bodies). And
> >>> (not without reason) the USSR feared that the US would attack them
> >>> after WW II.
> >> 
> >> While the USSR feared the US would attack them after WW II, that fear
> >> was utterly groundless.
> >
> > There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
> > before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
> > that a US president might have done so.
> >
> > After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things settled
> > into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most
> > peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.
> >
> > Unfortunately, religious fanatics are inherently immune to logic, so we
> > need to find another way to deal with them--both at home and abroad.
> >
> >> Yes, the USSR suffered terrible damage and loss of live, but it made 
> >> no difference.  If Stalin ordered them to go war, they would go to 
> >> war.
> >
> > Stalin didn't _want_ a war, but he had good reason to be paranoid after
> > being betrayed by Hitler; he trusted MAD more than NATO's promises of
> > non-aggression, just like we trusted MAD more than his promises.
> >
> > Reagan's strategy of goading the Soviets into spending themselves into
> > bankruptcy was ingenious.  Too bad his successors didn't understand they
> > were supposed to end that after the USSR collapsed and instead have all
> > gone looking for new enemies to replace them.
> 
> Oh, his successors understood alright.  Remember the talk about
> a peace dividend?
> 
> But if you're a big corporation making money selling weapons, you're
> going to find a way to keep sales growing.

Unless you're Grumman, North American, Douglas, . . .

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#157154

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2016-01-20 14:04 +0000
Message-ID<KtMny.142965$kN.38329@fx11.iad>
In reply to#157080
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>In article <n7mcqj$ceb$4@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...

>
>Unless you're Grumman, North American, Douglas, . . .

Who all still exist, as part of Lockheed, Northrop and Boeing.

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#157232

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-20 18:38 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.3109e484da775ccf989e69@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157154
In article <KtMny.142965$kN.38329@fx11.iad>, scott@slp53.sl.home says...
> 
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> >In article <n7mcqj$ceb$4@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
> 
> >
> >Unless you're Grumman, North American, Douglas, . . .
> 
> Who all still exist, as part of Lockheed, Northrop and Boeing.

Tell that to the people who used to work for them.

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#157274

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2016-01-21 14:12 +0000
Message-ID<4H5oy.161767$MN2.61120@fx07.iad>
In reply to#157232
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>In article <KtMny.142965$kN.38329@fx11.iad>, scott@slp53.sl.home says...
>> 
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> >In article <n7mcqj$ceb$4@dont-email.me>, despen@verizon.net says...
>> 
>> >
>> >Unless you're Grumman, North American, Douglas, . . .
>> 
>> Who all still exist, as part of Lockheed, Northrop and Boeing.
>
>Tell that to the people who used to work for them.
>

Hey, I'm not defending the consolidation, I think ultimately it
was disasterous for the future of the aerospace program.   Gone
are the days when a prototype aircraft was flying within 2 years
of RFP.

I once wrote a post listing the aerospace industry consolidation;
the current first tier have pretty much absorbed everyone else.
I was very disappointed when Scaled Composites was sold to Lockmart.

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#157074

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-19 18:15 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.31088db713ac9bce989e49@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157053
In article <n7masd$jgo$1@dont-email.me>, stephen@sprunk.org says...
> 
> On 19-Jan-16 14:24, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > Dave Garland wrote:
> >> The USSR suffered far more damage from WW II than any of the
> >> western allies. The USSR was the primary target of the Germans, and
> >> threw everything they had against them (materials and bodies). And
> >> (not without reason) the USSR feared that the US would attack them
> >> after WW II.
> > 
> > While the USSR feared the US would attack them after WW II, that fear
> > was utterly groundless.
> 
> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
> that a US president might have done so.
> 
> After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things settled
> into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most
> peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.
> 
> Unfortunately, religious fanatics are inherently immune to logic, so we
> need to find another way to deal with them--both at home and abroad.
> 
> > Yes, the USSR suffered terrible damage and loss of live, but it made 
> > no difference.  If Stalin ordered them to go war, they would go to 
> > war.
> 
> Stalin didn't _want_ a war, but he had good reason to be paranoid after
> being betrayed by Hitler; he trusted MAD more than NATO's promises of
> non-aggression, just like we trusted MAD more than his promises.
> 
> Reagan's strategy of goading the Soviets into spending themselves into
> bankruptcy was ingenious.  Too bad his successors didn't understand they
> were supposed to end that after the USSR collapsed and instead have all
> gone looking for new enemies to replace them.
> 
> S

I think that part of the problem is that there was a lesson in economics 
to be learned from WWII and different political groups got different 
parts of the lesson--the military was built up and the economy 
subsequently boomed, there was huge government borrowing and the economy 
subsequently boomed, there was a war and the economy subsequently 
boomed, so the various idiotpoliticians are borrowing massively and 
there's no boom, but they keep borrowing, the military has been built up 
hugely and there's no boom, but they keep building, there have been 
numerous wars and no boom, but they keep starting wars.  They don't get 
that the reason for the boom was the creation of pent-up consumer demand 
due to rationing and a significant supply of consumer wealth from 
several years of nearly full employment with nothing much available on 
which to spend their wages.  The borrowing and the miltary and the war 
were the circumstances that brought about that situation in the absence 
of the high employment and low availability of goods they achieve 
nothing other than costing money.

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#157218

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
Message-ID<1142796685.475020384.368699.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157053
Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
> On 19-Jan-16 14:24, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> Dave Garland wrote:
>>> The USSR suffered far more damage from WW II than any of the
>>> western allies. The USSR was the primary target of the Germans, and
>>> threw everything they had against them (materials and bodies). And
>>> (not without reason) the USSR feared that the US would attack them
>>> after WW II.
>> 
>> While the USSR feared the US would attack them after WW II, that fear
>> was utterly groundless.
> 
> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
> that a US president might have done so.
> 
> After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things settled
> into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most
> peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.
> 
> Unfortunately, religious fanatics are inherently immune to logic, so we
> need to find another way to deal with them--both at home and abroad.
> 
>> Yes, the USSR suffered terrible damage and loss of live, but it made 
>> no difference.  If Stalin ordered them to go war, they would go to 
>> war.
> 
> Stalin didn't _want_ a war, but he had good reason to be paranoid after
> being betrayed by Hitler; he trusted MAD more than NATO's promises of
> non-aggression, just like we trusted MAD more than his promises.
> 

If Hitler hadn't attacked Russisa, then Stalin would have attacked Germany
in a year or so.  Maybe his paranoia was in assuming that everyone was as
crazy as he was.

> Reagan's strategy of goading the Soviets into spending themselves into
> bankruptcy was ingenious.  Too bad his successors didn't understand they
> were supposed to end that after the USSR collapsed and instead have all
> gone looking for new enemies to replace them.
> 
> S
> 



-- 
Pete

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#157243

From"James Green" <667755@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-21 11:47 +1100
Message-ID<dgao4lF79vU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#157218

"Peter Flass" <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1142796685.475020384.368699.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org...
> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>> On 19-Jan-16 14:24, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> Dave Garland wrote:
>>>> The USSR suffered far more damage from WW II than any of the
>>>> western allies. The USSR was the primary target of the Germans, and
>>>> threw everything they had against them (materials and bodies). And
>>>> (not without reason) the USSR feared that the US would attack them
>>>> after WW II.
>>>
>>> While the USSR feared the US would attack them after WW II, that fear
>>> was utterly groundless.
>>
>> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
>> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
>> that a US president might have done so.
>>
>> After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things settled
>> into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most
>> peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.
>>
>> Unfortunately, religious fanatics are inherently immune to logic, so we
>> need to find another way to deal with them--both at home and abroad.
>>
>>> Yes, the USSR suffered terrible damage and loss of live, but it made
>>> no difference.  If Stalin ordered them to go war, they would go to
>>> war.
>>
>> Stalin didn't _want_ a war, but he had good reason to be paranoid after
>> being betrayed by Hitler; he trusted MAD more than NATO's promises of
>> non-aggression, just like we trusted MAD more than his promises.
>>
>
> If Hitler hadn't attacked Russisa, then Stalin would have attacked Germany
> in a year or so.

I don’t believe that and it wasn’t even possible given
all the countries between Russia and Germany anyway.

> Maybe his paranoia was in assuming that everyone was as crazy as he was.

He actually assumed that Hitler wouldn’t attack Russia and went
into one hell of a funk when he was proved wrong on that.

>> Reagan's strategy of goading the Soviets into spending themselves into
>> bankruptcy was ingenious.  Too bad his successors didn't understand they
>> were supposed to end that after the USSR collapsed and instead have all
>> gone looking for new enemies to replace them.
 

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#157269

Frommausg@mail.com
Date2016-01-21 11:54 +0000
Message-ID<slrnna1hnj.199.mausg@smaus.org>
In reply to#157218
On 2016-01-20, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>> On 19-Jan-16 14:24, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> Dave Garland wrote:
>> non-aggression, just like we trusted MAD more than his promises.
>> 
>
> If Hitler hadn't attacked Russisa, then Stalin would have attacked Germany
> in a year or so.  Maybe his paranoia was in assuming that everyone was as
> crazy as he was.

That is a major point that the German nationalists make, (not just the 
Neo-Nazis, who are starting to bloom again), that as the German Army 
advanced into Galicia, they found airstrips being prepared. After the
disastrous Soviet-Polish war, the soviets had decided that it was better
to develope socialism in one country, rather than violently export it, and
that was Stalin's policy to the end. Trotsky opposed that, fled the country,
and was murdered in Mexico later, no great loss. 



>
>> Reagan's strategy of goading the Soviets into spending themselves into
>> bankruptcy was ingenious.  Too bad his successors didn't understand they
>> were supposed to end that after the USSR collapsed and instead have all
>> gone looking for new enemies to replace them.
>> 
>> S
>> 
>
>
>


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#157282

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-01-21 08:52 -0800
Message-ID<10a0fea2-b6a9-4fce-abec-da84b0d196f9@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#157053
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:49:40 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
> that a US president might have done so.

When the USSR got its own nukes, the US capability was extremely
limited--it had very few bombs in working conditions, and not much
of an air force to deliver them.  Further, the USSR got its own bomb
fairly quickly after the war ended, before the real beicose rhetoric
of the Cold War began--the rhetoric was ramped up after the Soviets
got the bomb, and especially after Korea.

The Soviets, thanks to Stalin, were very paranoid.  The Soviets were
repeatedly told during WW II that the U.S. was evil and that the
Soviets had to make a temporary appeasement to fight the Germans.
(Ref. Victor Kravchenko, "I Chose Freedom").




> After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things settled
> into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most
> peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.

Generally so, though the veterans (and their families) of Korea 
and Vietnam might not agree.



> Unfortunately, religious fanatics are inherently immune to logic, so we
> need to find another way to deal with them--both at home and abroad.

Sadly, the experience of WW II and dealing with fervent Nazi's and
the Japanese was terribly difficult.  German POWs who were ardent
Nazi's (ie SS) had to be isolated from plain troops (Wermacht).  They
would kill their own people in a blink if they suspected any disloyalty.
Japanese soldiers would not surrender, ever, and were willing and able
to psych themselves into enduring horrific bombings yet keep fighting.

In the U.S. today, we're not doing much better.  On the one hand
are the hawks who just want to invade or bomb en masse, without
clear thinking about it (e.g. Bush and Iraq), which only makes
things worse.  On the other hand, the doves really think offering
the olive branch will make the fanactics happy and lovey-dovey; and
that won't work either.  (It amazes me how many humanitarian workers
go into those hostile zones, only to get killed.  Then their families
blame the US govt for not protecting them.)

The incompetence in invading Iraq to take out Saddam Hussein was 
utterly amazing.  The stories I heard from veterans who served there...
They learned NOTHING from Vietnam, and just repeated the screwups.

Take Syria.  Yes, their dictator is bad and their civil war is very
ugly.  But is it REALLY in our interest to interfere?  Wisely, we
have stayed away.

> Stalin didn't _want_ a war, but he had good reason to be paranoid after
> being betrayed by Hitler; he trusted MAD more than NATO's promises of
> non-aggression, just like we trusted MAD more than his promises.

Stalin died before MAD really became effective, at the time of his
death, nuclear weapons and ways to deliver them were still quite
limited.

Stalin didn't trust anyone.  IIRC, he planned to double-cross Hitler
all along, only Hitler beat him to it.  Stalin made the pact just to
buy time to build up his army.

[pure speculation:]  Sometimes I wonder if Stalin wasn't actually
murdered, he was getting even more nuts in his last years, ordering
ever more purges that were hurting the country (like killing off
all the doctors).  Perhaps he was planning to use his nukes and
his underlings (all thugs themselves), realized the folly and 
took him out.

I think it's more accurate to say Kruscheve believed in MAD.


 
> Reagan's strategy of goading the Soviets into spending themselves into
> bankruptcy was ingenious.  Too bad his successors didn't understand they
> were supposed to end that after the USSR collapsed and instead have all
> gone looking for new enemies to replace them.

Unfortunately, in politics, creating enemies is a good way to get
and stay elected.  It worked very well for the Republicans in the
1950s, accusing everyone of being 'soft on communism'.

J. Edgar Hoover did the same thing.  He'd go before Congress and
quietly talk about crime issues and how the FBI was working so
hard to fight it.  But he was careful not to paint crime as too
bad as to have Congress question his effectiveness.  He always got
what he wanted.  (his blackmail files didn't hurt either).  Hoover
was a P/R genius with the general public.  (An agent who dared
take personal credit for solving a case instead of crediting Hoover's
leadership was in deep trouble.)

By the way, Hoover wasn't personally interested in law and order
or the protection of society.  If he felt an area was too tough
for the FBI to handle (for whatever reason), he wouldn't go near it.
In the Nixon years, a staff member, Houston, presented a plan to
control rioting.  Hoover wouldn't touch it because he saw it as
political dynamite, not that he objected to the plan or going
after its targets that he hated.  Hoover was out for Hoover.



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#157294

FromStephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Date2016-01-21 11:29 -0600
Message-ID<n7r4ck$pfk$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#157282
On 21-Jan-16 10:52, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> The Soviets, thanks to Stalin, were very paranoid.  The Soviets were 
> repeatedly told during WW II that the U.S. was evil and that the 
> Soviets had to make a temporary appeasement to fight the Germans. 
> (Ref. Victor Kravchenko, "I Chose Freedom").

Of course; demonizing capitalists is standard communist propaganda and
had nothing to do with WWII, other than the need to explain why they
were temporarily cooperating with us, i.e. fascists were even worse.

> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things
>> settled into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most 
>> peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.
> 
> Generally so, though the veterans (and their families) of Korea and
> Vietnam might not agree.

Compared to the average rate of war fatalities prior to WWII, Korea and
Vietnam were non-events.

Obviously, for those directly affected by Korea or Vietnam (or Iraq or
Afghanistan), they were tragedies, but thousands of tragedies is better
(less bad?) than millions.

> The incompetence in invading Iraq to take out Saddam Hussein was 
> utterly amazing.  The stories I heard from veterans who served
> there... They learned NOTHING from Vietnam, and just repeated the
> screwups.
> 
> Take Syria.  Yes, their dictator is bad and their civil war is very 
> ugly.  But is it REALLY in our interest to interfere?  Wisely, we 
> have stayed away.

Agreed.  One of the lessons politicians _should_ have learned by now is
that every time we get involved in the Middle East, the result is even
worse than whatever caused us to intervene in the first place.

> Stalin didn't trust anyone.  IIRC, he planned to double-cross Hitler 
> all along, only Hitler beat him to it.  Stalin made the pact just to 
> buy time to build up his army.

Stalin trusted Hitler and _didn't_ build up his army, and one of the
reasons the Soviets took such heavy losses is they were completely
unprepared when Hitler attacked.  They had to build an army, virtually
from scratch, while on the defensive and losing ground every day.

That history is what _made_ Stalin paranoid; he assumed we'd betray him
like Hitler had.  The Cold War started because he was preparing for when
we did; we interpreted his defenses as preparation to invade Europe, and
he interpreted our defenses as preparation to invade Russia.  Lather,
rinse, repeat.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#157324

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-21 16:39 -0600
Message-ID<mdn2abdaj5t9melt2a4khj1rc3cb3t9op1@4ax.com>
In reply to#157294
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:29:29 -0600, Stephen Sprunk
<stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>On 21-Jan-16 10:52, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> The Soviets, thanks to Stalin, were very paranoid.  The Soviets were 
>> repeatedly told during WW II that the U.S. was evil and that the 
>> Soviets had to make a temporary appeasement to fight the Germans. 
>> (Ref. Victor Kravchenko, "I Chose Freedom").
>
>Of course; demonizing capitalists is standard communist propaganda and
>had nothing to do with WWII, other than the need to explain why they
>were temporarily cooperating with us, i.e. fascists were even worse.
>
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> After they got them and everyone fully understood MAD, things
>>> settled into the Cold War, which ironically became one of the most 
>>> peaceful--though tense--periods in human history.
>> 
>> Generally so, though the veterans (and their families) of Korea and
>> Vietnam might not agree.
>
>Compared to the average rate of war fatalities prior to WWII, Korea and
>Vietnam were non-events.
>
>Obviously, for those directly affected by Korea or Vietnam (or Iraq or
>Afghanistan), they were tragedies, but thousands of tragedies is better
>(less bad?) than millions.
>
>> The incompetence in invading Iraq to take out Saddam Hussein was 
>> utterly amazing.  The stories I heard from veterans who served
>> there... They learned NOTHING from Vietnam, and just repeated the
>> screwups.
>> 
>> Take Syria.  Yes, their dictator is bad and their civil war is very 
>> ugly.  But is it REALLY in our interest to interfere?  Wisely, we 
>> have stayed away.
>
>Agreed.  One of the lessons politicians _should_ have learned by now is
>that every time we get involved in the Middle East, the result is even
>worse than whatever caused us to intervene in the first place.
>
>> Stalin didn't trust anyone.  IIRC, he planned to double-cross Hitler 
>> all along, only Hitler beat him to it.  Stalin made the pact just to 
>> buy time to build up his army.
>
>Stalin trusted Hitler and _didn't_ build up his army, and one of the
>reasons the Soviets took such heavy losses is they were completely
>unprepared when Hitler attacked.  They had to build an army, virtually
>from scratch, while on the defensive and losing ground every day.

Stalin's murder of many of his generals didn't help either.

I've read and seen in documentaries that killing of Soviet generals is
why Finland won the early battles against the Soviets. Mannerheim
being the Finnish general didn't hurt either.

-- 
JimP.

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#157395

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-01-23 14:46 +0000
Message-ID<9uWdnVplReKjDz7LnZ2dnUU78WcAAAAA@giganews.com>
In reply to#157324
On 21/01/2016 22:39, JimP wrote:
> Stalin's murder of many of his generals didn't help either.
>
> I've read and seen in documentaries that killing of Soviet generals is
> why Finland won the early battles against the Soviets. Mannerheim
> being the Finnish general didn't hurt either.
>
Not just the generals were killed, it was practically all the USSR's 
officers.

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#157410

Frommausg@mail.com
Date2016-01-23 17:14 +0000
Message-ID<slrnna7d7d.18i.mausg@smaus.org>
In reply to#157395
On 2016-01-23, Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 21/01/2016 22:39, JimP wrote:
>> Stalin's murder of many of his generals didn't help either.
>>
>> I've read and seen in documentaries that killing of Soviet generals is
>> why Finland won the early battles against the Soviets. Mannerheim
>> being the Finnish general didn't hurt either.
>>
> Not just the generals were killed, it was practically all the USSR's 
> officers.

There was a lot of rumors of all that. Tukachevsky was thinking of 
taking over, however most think his invasion of Poland, and
forgeting about the Polish Army was not inspired. Then Gan's treatment
of civilians in that war was not hopeful. Most of the officer corps,
thanks to Trotsky, was ex-czarist. There was a problem there.


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#157451

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-01-23 18:50 -0800
Message-ID<87powr6685.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#157410
mausg@mail.com writes:
> There was a lot of rumors of all that. Tukachevsky was thinking of 
> taking over, however most think his invasion of Poland, and
> forgeting about the Polish Army was not inspired. Then Gan's treatment
> of civilians in that war was not hopeful. Most of the officer corps,
> thanks to Trotsky, was ex-czarist. There was a problem there.

Smithsonian channel running greatest war ... started with axis/russian
conflict. however they just mentioned that germany had 600,000
industrial workers from vichy france (not slave labor).

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#157412

From"kipg" <io@nospam.com>
Date2016-01-24 04:25 +1100
Message-ID<dghrcuFootqU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#157395

"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message 
news:9uWdnVplReKjDz7LnZ2dnUU78WcAAAAA@giganews.com...
> On 21/01/2016 22:39, JimP wrote:
>> Stalin's murder of many of his generals didn't help either.
>>
>> I've read and seen in documentaries that killing of Soviet generals is
>> why Finland won the early battles against the Soviets. Mannerheim
>> being the Finnish general didn't hurt either.
>>
> Not just the generals were killed, it was practically all the USSR's 
> officers.

That's radically overstated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Purge_of_the_army 

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#157394

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-01-23 14:44 +0000
Message-ID<9uWdnVtlReIxDD7LnZ2dnUU78WednZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#157282
On 21/01/2016 16:52, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
{snip}

> [pure speculation:]  Sometimes I wonder if Stalin wasn't actually
> murdered, he was getting even more nuts in his last years, ordering
> ever more purges that were hurting the country (like killing off
> all the doctors).  Perhaps he was planning to use his nukes and
> his underlings (all thugs themselves), realized the folly and
> took him out.

Stalin being killed deliberately is a view of many people in Russia. He 
was killed in his sleep to prevent him from calling his guards.

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#157406

Frommausg@mail.com
Date2016-01-23 16:54 +0000
Message-ID<slrnna7c2j.18i.mausg@smaus.org>
In reply to#157394
On 2016-01-23, Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 21/01/2016 16:52, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> {snip}
>
>> [pure speculation:]  Sometimes I wonder if Stalin wasn't actually
>> murdered, he was getting even more nuts in his last years, ordering
>> ever more purges that were hurting the country (like killing off
>> all the doctors).  Perhaps he was planning to use his nukes and
>> his underlings (all thugs themselves), realized the folly and
>> took him out.
>
> Stalin being killed deliberately is a view of many people in Russia. He 
> was killed in his sleep to prevent him from calling his guards.

Thats Russian politics.
Anyone have problems with that?
There  was a story that at the end, he started to be suspicious of
his doctors, wwho happened to be Jewish. Whatever about being Jewish, 
not trusting your doctors is not a long term health idea.


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#157423

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-01-23 15:01 -0500
Message-ID<519175334.475271428.207126.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157406
<mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2016-01-23, Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 21/01/2016 16:52, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> {snip}
>> 
>>> [pure speculation:]  Sometimes I wonder if Stalin wasn't actually
>>> murdered, he was getting even more nuts in his last years, ordering
>>> ever more purges that were hurting the country (like killing off
>>> all the doctors).  Perhaps he was planning to use his nukes and
>>> his underlings (all thugs themselves), realized the folly and
>>> took him out.
>> 
>> Stalin being killed deliberately is a view of many people in Russia. He 
>> was killed in his sleep to prevent him from calling his guards.
> 
> Thats Russian politics.
> Anyone have problems with that?
> There  was a story that at the end, he started to be suspicious of
> his doctors, wwho happened to be Jewish. Whatever about being Jewish, 
> not trusting your doctors is not a long term health idea.
> 
> 

I'm hoping Putin will be "retired" soon, although his successor could
always be worse.

-- 
Pete

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