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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #156571 > unrolled thread

Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union)

Started byhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
First post2016-01-12 18:53 -0800
Last post2016-01-14 14:02 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 383 — 39 participants

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Contents

  Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-12 18:53 -0800
    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 16:32 -0500
      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-13 13:40 -0800
        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2016-01-13 17:04 -0500
        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 17:11 -0500
        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-13 16:10 -0600
          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-13 14:23 -0800
            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 18:52 -0500
              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-13 17:20 -0800
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-14 08:03 -0500
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-14 14:20 -0800
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-17 03:37 -0600
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:07 -0500
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-18 15:11 +0000
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-14 14:12 +0000
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-01-14 08:27 -0700
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-14 14:26 -0800
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-01-16 16:21 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-16 14:59 -0800
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-15 14:51 +0000
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-15 16:50 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-15 17:53 +0000
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-15 19:38 +0100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-15 11:15 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-15 15:52 -0500
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-15 14:00 -0800
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-17 03:53 -0600
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 12:03 +0000
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-15 11:11 -0800
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-16 14:09 +0000
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-16 08:41 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-16 09:10 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 07:46 +1100
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 20:04 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-16 19:18 -0800
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 23:34 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:15 -0800
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 15:33 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-16 22:51 -0600
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 16:15 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-16 22:31 -0800
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:03 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:03 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:24 -0800
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 15:49 -0600
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 13:59 -0800
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 10:31 +1100
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:50 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 17:46 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 13:36 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 22:36 -0500
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 19:46 -0800
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 06:20 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-20 10:09 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-20 13:27 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-20 10:11 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 05:56 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:35 -0500
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 10:35 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:45 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 19:13 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:34 -0800
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:40 -0600
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 13:33 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:27 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:36 -0600
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 19:08 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-22 12:29 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-22 10:56 -0800
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-22 19:08 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-22 11:22 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-22 20:00 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-22 12:43 -0800
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-23 09:07 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-22 14:24 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-23 09:11 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-23 11:27 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-24 11:14 -0600
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-19 17:22 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:47 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-20 14:04 +0000
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:38 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-21 14:12 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:15 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 11:47 +1100
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-21 11:54 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:52 -0800
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:29 -0600
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:39 -0600
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-23 14:46 +0000
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-23 17:14 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-23 18:50 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 04:25 +1100
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-23 14:44 +0000
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-23 16:54 +0000
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-23 15:01 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 07:45 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-24 15:07 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-24 10:43 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-24 11:21 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-24 11:36 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-24 20:23 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-26 14:21 +0100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Orange" <oq7755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 04:33 +1100
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-25 04:55 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 07:34 +1100
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "kipg" <io@nospam.com> - 2016-01-24 04:19 +1100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-16 16:46 -0800
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 03:45 +1100
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-16 15:32 -0500
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-16 20:57 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 09:54 +1100
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 20:08 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 13:57 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 23:33 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 16:09 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 00:40 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 17:40 +1100
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 07:19 +0000
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 19:18 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:40 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:12 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:59 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:19 +1100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 19:41 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-25 13:09 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-25 14:55 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-25 11:22 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-25 16:04 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-26 09:55 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-25 19:41 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-25 19:46 -0800
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-25 20:31 -0800
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 06:42 -0500
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 11:39 -0600
                                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 19:23 -0500
                                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-26 21:42 -0600
                                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-27 08:27 +0000
                                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 06:19 -0500
                                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-28 15:56 -0600
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-26 17:43 -0800
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-26 16:05 +1100
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-25 19:40 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 14:19 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-17 19:10 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 19:27 -0500
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-17 23:45 -0500
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 00:54 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 17:02 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 16:30 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 18:17 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 19:24 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-01-17 08:18 -0600
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:21 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:45 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:34 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:51 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-20 14:12 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-20 17:13 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-21 14:47 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 11:11 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:40 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-21 14:47 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 11:10 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:41 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-21 20:35 +0000
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:49 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:41 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 10:40 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-21 20:37 +0000
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-21 16:02 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 18:42 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-22 13:29 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2016-01-22 21:09 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-21 16:04 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-22 13:55 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:16 -0800
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 18:34 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:36 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-17 12:14 +0000
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:49 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:57 +1100
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:19 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-17 15:26 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 12:02 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:24 +1100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 18:13 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "879" <879@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 10:35 +1100
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-18 12:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 08:53 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-19 13:37 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 16:32 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 11:41 +1100
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 19:56 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 21:12 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-19 00:07 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 14:06 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-19 07:36 -0500
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-19 13:37 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-19 15:47 -0500
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:20 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:32 -0600
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 14:11 +1100
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-19 10:15 +0100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 20:41 +1100
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 07:03 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 10:34 -0600
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-19 07:59 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 10:19 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:16 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-20 06:21 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-20 11:41 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-20 12:07 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 04:53 +1100
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-20 20:16 +0000
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 07:46 +1100
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-20 15:01 -0600
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 08:17 +1100
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 17:29 -0600
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-20 21:22 +0000
                                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "James Green" <667755@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 08:52 +1100
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-21 11:46 +0000
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 07:02 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 10:33 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 18:36 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-19 14:24 +0000
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 12:01 -0500
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 05:23 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:37 +1100
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-17 09:22 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:34 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:34 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-17 11:42 +0000
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:54 -0500
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 07:09 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 07:26 -0500
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 04:52 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-17 14:08 +0000
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-17 15:50 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:58 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-17 19:08 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 19:26 -0500
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-17 19:08 -0600
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:33 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 10:32 -0600
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-21 17:41 -0800
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-22 03:38 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-22 17:34 -0800
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-23 05:06 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-23 15:29 -0800
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-25 02:15 +0000
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:20 -0800
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-18 08:53 +0000
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-18 10:22 +0100
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-18 09:58 +0000
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-18 07:45 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 16:38 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 17:59 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 11:42 +1100
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-18 20:37 -0600
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 14:20 +1100
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-18 07:45 -0500
                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-19 04:18 +1100
                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-18 18:51 +0100
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-19 00:41 -0400
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-18 23:58 -0500
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-19 07:36 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-19 14:27 +0000
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-19 14:38 +0000
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-01-19 18:33 +0000
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-01-19 16:28 -0500
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-19 13:57 -0800
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-19 16:46 -0600
                                                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-21 17:50 -0800
                                                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 21:43 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:53 -0800
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-19 22:14 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 17:35 -0600
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-21 07:21 +0000
                                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:26 -0800
                                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:31 -0600
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 18:52 -0500
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 16:36 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-19 19:27 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 08:59 -0800
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 17:54 -0600
                                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:01 -0800
                                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-21 11:49 -0600
                                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-19 11:01 -0600
                                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-01-19 11:19 -0600
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:30 -0500
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:32 -0800
                                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-01-18 19:06 -0600
                                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:39 -0600
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 11:57 -0500
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:02 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 15:40 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 15:55 +1100
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-18 15:57 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 19:37 -0600
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-25 13:05 +1100
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-24 21:59 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-01-16 22:57 -0600
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 16:17 +1100
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:27 -0800
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-01-19 23:24 +0000
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 19:43 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-21 09:10 -0800
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-17 08:15 +0000
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-17 06:42 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-17 15:40 +0000
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 23:24 -0500
                                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-19 12:36 -0800
                                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-19 20:47 +0000
                                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-19 16:28 -0500
                                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-01-20 08:18 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:21 -0600
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-18 15:08 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 11:15 -0500
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-18 17:44 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 19:08 -0600
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-16 17:07 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 09:56 +1100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-16 16:30 -0800
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-17 15:26 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 05:13 +1100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-19 13:36 -0600
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-19 13:37 -0600
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 14:35 -0600
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2016-01-21 17:05 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-21 12:18 -0500
                                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 16:35 -0600
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-22 13:55 +0000
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 17:26 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-15 22:20 +0000
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-16 10:42 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 06:04 -0500
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-16 11:39 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 07:23 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-16 13:09 +0100
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-17 03:41 +1100
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-01-14 11:02 -0800
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 11:56 -0800
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 18:57 -0500
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 16:08 -0800
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 18:03 -0800
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-14 21:41 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-15 14:51 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com> - 2016-01-15 15:43 +0000
                                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-01-16 14:09 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 15:06 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 17:53 -0500
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-01-15 07:04 +0000
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "jack" <jkl8976@nospam.com> - 2016-01-15 19:29 +1100
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 06:43 -0500
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-15 15:52 -0500
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) floyd@apaflo.com (Floyd L. Davidson) - 2016-01-14 16:00 -0900
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 15:05 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 20:04 -0600
                          Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-18 21:17 -0500
                            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-19 07:57 +0000
                              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 19:53 -0600
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-01-15 15:01 +0000
                        Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 17:53 -0500
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-14 21:17 +0000
              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-13 18:08 -0800
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-13 21:25 -0500
                  Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 07:31 -0800
                    Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-01-14 18:46 +0100
                      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-01-14 10:43 -0800
                Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2016-01-24 20:00 -0600
              Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-01-14 00:31 -0800
            Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-01-17 03:30 -0600
      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-01-14 01:35 +0000
      Re: Shout out to Grace Hopper (State of the Union) mausg@mail.com - 2016-01-14 14:02 +0000

Page 4 of 20 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 … 20  Next page →


#157326

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-21 16:45 -0600
Message-ID<prn2ab9c449i1qi7q80k4ddnhr8cqnufq5@4ax.com>
In reply to#157302
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:35:24 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 6:29:33 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The Russians aren't going to see _anybody_ who is planting their muddy 
>> boots on Mother Russia as a "liberator", Quadi.
>
>Actually, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, _at first_,
>the people felt liberated.  Life under Stalin was not good.  However,
>very quickly they discovered that the Germans were just as bad.

The Ukraine welcomed the Nazis. Then they learned they had made a
mistake.

-- 
JimP.

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#157333

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-21 19:13 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.310b3e3f7fa27331989e76@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157302
In article <86534bf8-c7d7-4a4e-9922-fddadfe1c167@googlegroups.com>, 
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> 
> On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 6:29:33 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> 
> > The Russians aren't going to see _anybody_ who is planting their muddy 
> > boots on Mother Russia as a "liberator", Quadi.
> 
> Actually, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, _at first_,
> the people felt liberated.  Life under Stalin was not good.  However,
> very quickly they discovered that the Germans were just as bad.

Soviet Union and Russia are different.  You DON'T mess with the Rodina.

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#157221

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
Message-ID<1127366310.475021739.288288.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157140
J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <87809b31-7edd-4607-b888-33f1f4fd4166@googlegroups.com>, 
> jsavard@ecn.ab.ca says...
>> 
>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:31:03 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>> 
>>> So how are you going to get to Russia?  And I guess it's OK with you 
>>> that 20 million or so Russians die, because, of course, according to 
>>> you, they're EEEEEEVVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLL.
>> 
>> I wasn't commenting on what was OK with me, but somehow I suspect it wouldn't 
>> be that much of a problem for the Czechs and the Hungarians and so on.
> 
> So how many "Czechs and Hungarians" do you know personally who lived 
> under Communism?  Have you asked them whether they feel that continuing 
> the war with tens of millions more deaths would have been desirable?

In college I roomed with a guy whose family got out of Hungary during the
revolt.  We didn't talk politics much, though.

> 
> 
>> Just as 
>> it wouldn't be that much of a problem for Americans if it was the price of 
>> preventing many Americans from dying, or of Communist rule in *their* own 
>> country.
> 
> You really think that the Soviet Union could be defeated by the US with 
> _zero_ US deaths?  You're inhabiting a dream world.
>  
>> A lot of German civilians died in World War II. Were they eeevill?
> 
> They were the aggressors and got what aggressors get.
> 
>> That's not 
>> really the point. Once there's a situation like a war, where aggression can't 
>> be stopped without some civilian casualties in the nation the government of 
>> which engaged in the aggression, well, better strangers than us and those we 
>> love.
> 
> So where was the "aggression" by the Soviets?  They took down the Nazis 
> and then didn't completely relinquish the territory that they had to 
> pass through to get to Germany.
>  
>> Nor do I think that a nuclear attack on Soviet Russia would need to kill 20 
>> million people to achieve surrender. Just be sure to kill Stalin and his top 
>> men; then there would be little percentage in continuing to fight.
> 
> Yeah, Hitler didn't think it would take that many deaths to beat the 
> Russians either.  He found out otherwise.
> 
> You seem to be one of those morons who thinks that you can drop a few 
> bombs and your enemy is going to turn belly-up.  If you don't want to 
> see massive FOBS coming at you one day, you better damn well occupy the 
> place, and nukes be damned, you're going to be slogging through the snow 
> with vast quantities of very angry Russians doing their best to ruin 
> your day.
> 



-- 
Pete

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#157297

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-01-21 09:34 -0800
Message-ID<e63c14bb-9162-4ebb-8471-2014083de53d@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#157096
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:46:56 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:

> Um, if this took place before Russia had nuclear weapons, but after the U.S. 
> did, we're not talking about any Polish or Czech or Hungarian casualties, just 
> Russian casualties.

Given Stalin, there still would've been a nasty ground war, with
terrible damage in Eastern Europe, and lots of American casualties.

If the Americans used Western Europe as a base, then those areas
would've been bombed by the Soviets.

Remember, too, that Soviet troops saw Eastern Europe as properly 
theirs, while US troops had no vested in interest.

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#157095

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-19 19:40 -0600
Message-ID<89pt9bpvl1f7vplon9vi7k0nfhm5i0rulb@4ax.com>
In reply to#157079
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:31:37 +1100, "James Green" <667755@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
>"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message 
>news:8a0bf417-abae-4f71-b315-92810ca61082@googlegroups.com...
>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 2:49:40 PM UTC-7, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>
>>> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
>>> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
>>> that a US president might have done so.
>>
>> And?
>
>So it did make sense for Stalin to get his own nukes to avoid that.

Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.

-- 
JimP.

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#157100

From"James Green" <667755@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-20 13:33 +1100
Message-ID<dg8a0rFbemrU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#157095

"JimP" <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:89pt9bpvl1f7vplon9vi7k0nfhm5i0rulb@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:31:37 +1100, "James Green" <667755@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
>>news:8a0bf417-abae-4f71-b315-92810ca61082@googlegroups.com...
>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 2:49:40 PM UTC-7, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>
>>>> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
>>>> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
>>>> that a US president might have done so.
>>>
>>> And?
>>
>>So it did make sense for Stalin to get his own nukes to avoid that.
>
> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.

Yeah, he was completely off with the fucking fairys as always.

Same with MacArthur who wanted to use nukes in Korea. 

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#157220

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-01-20 17:33 -0500
Message-ID<923321701.475021592.953947.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157100
James Green <667755@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> "JimP" <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:89pt9bpvl1f7vplon9vi7k0nfhm5i0rulb@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:31:37 +1100, "James Green" <667755@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:8a0bf417-abae-4f71-b315-92810ca61082@googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 2:49:40 PM UTC-7, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> There were many in the US that publicly argued for a preemptive strike
>>>>> before the USSR got its own nukes, and it was not unreasonable to worry
>>>>> that a US president might have done so.
>>>> 
>>>> And?
>>> 
>>> So it did make sense for Stalin to get his own nukes to avoid that.
>> 
>> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
> 
> Yeah, he was completely off with the fucking fairys as always.
> 
> Same with MacArthur who wanted to use nukes in Korea. 
> 
> 

And the chairman of the JCS who wanted to use them to bail out the French
at Dien Bien Phu.

-- 
Pete

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#157293

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-01-21 09:27 -0800
Message-ID<bf63c57a-0eb0-43d1-97a5-1431c5bebb62@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#157095
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:

> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.

Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".

IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
so he felt the times were good to take them on.

Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.

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#157323

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-21 16:36 -0600
Message-ID<p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>
In reply to#157293
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>
>> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>
>Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>
>IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>
>Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.

The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.

-- 
JimP.

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#157332

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-21 19:08 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.310b3d2122f63e82989e75@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#157323
In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
@gmail.com says...
> 
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
> >
> >> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
> >> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
> >> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
> >
> >Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
> >
> >IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
> >so he felt the times were good to take them on.
> >
> >Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
> >Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
> 
> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.

I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the 
Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was 
using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and 
the IS-3 in production.

OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without 
much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.

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#157353

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-22 12:29 -0600
Message-ID<m0t4able6boalrk77mcnoa00jqvtqkntsl@4ax.com>
In reply to#157332
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>@gmail.com says...
>> 
>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> >On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>> >
>> >> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>> >> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>> >> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>> >
>> >Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>> >
>> >IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>> >so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>> >
>> >Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>> >Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>> 
>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>
>I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the 
>Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was 
>using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and 
>the IS-3 in production.
>
>OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without 
>much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.

Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
could stand up to them.

The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
should have been shot.

-- 
JimP.

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#157354

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-01-22 10:56 -0800
Message-ID<87egd91lzq.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#157353
JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
> should have been shot.

there have been various references that they were produced in such large
numbers ... that German's could be overwhelmed by keeping sending
Shermans until the enemy ran out of ammunition

repeat from earlier post original from "misson command" (auftragstaktik)
discussions:

Logistics and industrial capability wins in state on state wars. On D
Day (6 Jun) the US alone flew over 3,000 sorties the Germans could only
manage 150. The famous debrief of a German anti-tank commander when
captured at Normandy when asked how he came to be captured, his answer
was he ran out of anti-tank shells before the americans ran out of
tanks.

....

shermans were effectively "cannon fodder" ... but also the crews.

then Russia not only significantly more tanks, but better tanks, From
Guderian's book (Panzer Leader), loc2902-3:

Hitler then said: 'If I had known that the figures for Russian tank
strength which you gave in your book were in fact the true ones, I would
not—I believe—ever have started this war.'

loc2903-6:

He was referring to my book Achtung! Panzer!, published in
1937, in which I had estimated Russian tank strength at that time as
10,000; both the Chief of the Army General Staff, Beck, and the censor
had disagreed with this statement. It had cost me a lot of trouble to
get that figure printed; but I had been able to show that intelligence
reports at the time spoke of 17,000 Russian tanks and that my estimate
was therefore, if anything, a very conservative one.

loc2256-58:

The military commission was so insistent on this point that
eventually our manufacturers and Ordnance Office officials concluded:
'It seems that the Russians must already possess better and heavier
tanks than we do.' It was at the end of July, 1941, that the T34 tank
appeared at the front and the riddle of the new Russian model was
solved.

loc2262-64:

At this time our yearly tank production scarcely amounted
to more than 1,000 of all types. In view of our enemies' production
figures this was very small. As far back as 1933 I had visited a single
Russian tank factory which was producing 22 tanks per day of the
Christie-Russki type.

... snip ...

past posts mentioning Shermans
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#85 V-Man's Patton Quote (LONG) (Pronafity)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#10 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#11 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#16 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#27 Controversial paper - Good response article on ZDNet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#24 The SOB that helped IT jobs move to India is dead!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#11 The 8008
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006f.html#14 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006q.html#28 was change headers: The Fate of VM - was: Re: Baby MVS???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008g.html#21 WWII supplies
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008j.html#11 To: Graymouse -- Ireland and the EU, What in the H... is all this about?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008j.html#21 To: Graymouse -- Ireland and the EU, What in the H... is all this about?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008q.html#17 realtors (and GM, too!)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#28 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#29 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#43 Boyd's Briefings
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010o.html#66 They always think we don't understand
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#62 How Comp-Sci went from passing fad to must have major
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#63 How Comp-Sci went from passing fad to must have major
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#71 How Comp-Sci went from passing fad to must have major
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#69 rationality

past posts mentioning Guderian:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#120 atomic History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#29 Review of Steve McConnell's AFTER THE GOLD RUSH
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#30 Review of Steve McConnell's AFTER THE GOLD RUSH
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#16 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#36 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#38 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#33 Star Trek: TNG reference
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#43 Star Trek: TNG reference
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#51 employee motivation & executive compensation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003p.html#27 The BASIC Variations
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004k.html#24 Timeless Classics of Software Engineering
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004q.html#86 Organizations with two or more Managers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005e.html#3 Computerworld Article: Dress for Success?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006f.html#14 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006g.html#9 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006q.html#41 was change headers: The Fate of VM - was: Re: Baby MVS???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#37 Special characters in passwords was Re: RACF - Password rules
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#25 Special characters in passwords was Re: RACF - Password rules
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#26 Current Officers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008g.html#34 WWII supplies
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008h.html#8a Using Military Philosophy to Drive High Value Sales
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008h.html#61 Up, Up, ... and Gone?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008h.html#63 how can a hierarchical mindset really ficilitate inclusive and empowered organization
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#69 Blinkenlights
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009e.html#73 Most 'leaders' do not 'lead' and the majority of 'managers' do not 'manage'. Why is this?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009j.html#34 Mission Control & Air Cooperation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#43 Boyd's Briefings
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010h.html#48 Do you know of, or have you participated in, any good examples of successful collaboration?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010i.html#68 Favourite computer history books?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011j.html#7 Innovation and iconoclasm
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#3 Preparing for Boyd II
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011l.html#52 An elusive command philosophy and a different command culture
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#45 You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#26 Strategy subsumes culture
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#51 How would you succinctly desribe maneuver warfare?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#2 Did they apply Boyd's concepts?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#84 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#63 Is this Boyd's fundamental postulate, 'to improve our capacity for independent action'?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#50 Is there a connection between your strategic and tactical assertions?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#51 Is this Boyd's fundamental postulate, 'to improve our capacity for independent action'? thoughts please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012k.html#7 Is there a connection between your strategic and tactical assertions?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012l.html#17 Cultural attitudes towards failure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013e.html#10 The Knowledge Economy Two Classes of Workers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013e.html#81 How Criticizing in Private Undermines Your Team - Harvard Business Review
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013k.html#48 John Boyd's Art of War
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#16 Command Culture
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#61 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#67 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#46 The Pentagon Wars
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#80 Here's how a retired submarine captain would save IBM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#13 Keydriven bit permutations
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#16 Keydriven bit permutations
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#69 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#77 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#61 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#19 Where to Flatten the Officer Corps
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#119 For those who like to regress to their youth? :-)

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#157357

Frommausg@mail.com
Date2016-01-22 19:08 +0000
Message-ID<slrnna4vi3.193.mausg@smaus.org>
In reply to#157353
On 2016-01-22, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
><j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>>@gmail.com says...
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> >On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>>> >> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>>> >> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>>> >
>>> >Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>>> >
>>> >IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>>> >so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>>> >
>>> >Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>>> >Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>>> 
>>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>>
>>I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the 
>>Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was 
>>using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and 
>>the IS-3 in production.
>>
>>OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without 
>>much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.
>
> Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
> punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
> could stand up to them.
>
> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
> should have been shot.
>

The Sturmovik tankbuster was probably the inspiration for the A-10.



-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#157360

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-01-22 11:22 -0800
Message-ID<878u3h1ksu.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#157357
mausg@mail.com writes:
> The Sturmovik tankbuster was probably the inspiration for the A-10.

Stuka and Sturmovik -- The Aircraft That Inspired the A-10
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/stuka-and-sturmovik-the-aircraft-that-inspired-the-a-10-8c8d885d61db

It is the Sturmovik, along with the German Ju-87 Stuka dive bomber, that
fathered the A-10. -- The World War II close air support successes of
both the Stuka and the Sturmovik had a major -- and inspiring ---
influence in convincing all of us early A-X/A-10 proponents that close
support was by far the most important mission of air power, certainly
more so than strategic bombing, A-10 designer Pierre Sprey tells War is
Boring.

... snip ..

Pierre is from the Boyd group and one of the reasons I've gotten dragged
into discussions about using F35 as excuse for killing off A10 (as well
as close-air-support versus strategic bombing arguments)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Sprey

Together with John Boyd and Thomas P. Christie, he was a member of the
self-dubbed 'Fighter Mafia', advocating the use of
energy-maneuverability theory in fighter design.

... snip ...

boyd posts & URLs from around the web
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#157363

Frommausg@mail.com
Date2016-01-22 20:00 +0000
Message-ID<slrnna52jf.18h.mausg@smaus.org>
In reply to#157357
On 2016-01-22, mausg@mail.com <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2016-01-22, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>><j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>>>@gmail.com says...
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>>>> >> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>>>> >> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>>>> >
>>>> >Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>>>> >
>>>> >IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>>>> >so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>>>> >
>>>> >Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>>>> >Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>>>> 
>>>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>>>
>>>I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the 
>>>Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was 
>>>using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and 
>>>the IS-3 in production.
>>>
>>>OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without 
>>>much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.
>>
>> Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
>> punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
>> could stand up to them.
>>
>> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
>> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
>> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
>> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
>> should have been shot.
>>
>
> The Sturmovik tankbuster was probably the inspiration for the A-10.
>
>
>
There are photos of German armoured columns caught on the open steppe
by Sturmoviks late in the war, very like those hell-like photos of 
Iraqi armour retreating in Gulf War I. There are supposed to be  films
online showing Syrian rebels firing a US anti-aircraft rocket at a Russian
armoured helicopter in Syria recently, there is a flash, everyone cheers,
then the Hind emerges from the smoke coming back.



-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#157364

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-01-22 12:43 -0800
Message-ID<87powtz6ny.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#157363
mausg@mail.com writes:

> On 2016-01-22, mausg@mail.com <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> There are photos of German armoured columns caught on the open steppe
> by Sturmoviks late in the war, very like those hell-like photos of 
> Iraqi armour retreating in Gulf War I. There are supposed to be  films
> online showing Syrian rebels firing a US anti-aircraft rocket at a Russian
> armoured helicopter in Syria recently, there is a flash, everyone cheers,
> then the Hind emerges from the smoke coming back.

Recent posts on facebook about it being 25yrs since Gulf War I. Note
Boyd is credited with the battle plan for desert storm.

Ground war lasted 100hrs after A10s had been blasting away for
42days. GAO "air compaign effectiveness" study has Iraqis walking away
from their tanks because they were sitting ducks. Later ground war
accounts of tank battles (with no allied losses), fail to mention
whether the Iraqis tanks had anybody home.

past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#8 scheduling & dynamic adaptive ... long posting warning
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#120 atomic History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#34 War, Chaos, & Business (web site), or Col John Boyd
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#65 Java as a first programming language for cs students
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#83 The Mind of War: John Boyd and American Security
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#58 employee motivation & executive compensation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#0 employee motivation & executive compensation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#27 Controversial paper - Good response article on ZDNet
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#61 If you're going to bullshit, eschew moderation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#19 Message To America's Students: The War, The Draft, Your Future
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#34 I am an ageing techy, expert on everything. Let me explain the
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#15 The 8008
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006h.html#4 The Pankian Metaphor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006q.html#41 was change headers: The Fate of VM - was: Re: Baby MVS???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006t.html#35 Universal constants
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#9 was: 1975 movie "Three Days of the Condor" tech stuff
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#26 Current Officers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#39 Current Officers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008g.html#21 WWII supplies
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009e.html#73 Most 'leaders' do not 'lead' and the majority of 'managers' do not 'manage'. Why is this?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009f.html#40 Time zones
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009m.html#16 comp.arch has made itself a sitting duck for spam
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#60 MasPar compiler and simulator
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009q.html#38 The 50th Anniversary of the Legendary IBM 1401
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#29 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010.html#30 360 programs on a z/10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010b.html#43 Daylight Savings Time again
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010f.html#55 Handling multicore CPUs; what the competition is thinking
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010i.html#68 Favourite computer history books?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010k.html#16 taking down the machine - z9 series
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010o.html#65 They always think we don't understand
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010q.html#60 I actually miss working at IBM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011j.html#14 Innovation and iconoclasm
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011l.html#53 What is IBM culture?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#90 There is much we can learn from TE Lawrence
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#51 How would you succinctly desribe maneuver warfare?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#18 Colonel John Boyd Wikipedia Mention
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#17 Hierarchy
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#2 Interesting News Article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#49 Early use of the word "computer"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#62 Early use of the word "computer"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012l.html#50 Arming for the Navy's Return to History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012l.html#54 Singer Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012n.html#10 Jedi Knights
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012n.html#60 The IBM mainframe has been the backbone of most of the world's largest IT organizations for more than 48 years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012o.html#9 OT:  Tax breaks to Oracle debated
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012p.html#59 How do we fight bureaucracy and bureaucrats in IBM?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013c.html#16 A Matter of Mindset: Iraq, Sequestration and the U.S. Army
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013e.html#78 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013e.html#79 As an IBM'er just like the Marines only a few good men and women make the cut,
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013f.html#69 The cloud is killing traditional hardware and software
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013g.html#59 What Makes collecting sales taxes Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013g.html#92 A Matter of Mindset: Iraq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#41 Is newer technology always better? It almost is. Exceptions?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#78 IBM commitment to academia
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#36 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#49 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013k.html#41 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013k.html#84 spacewar
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013k.html#87 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013n.html#10 Why the Death of the Tank Is Greatly Exaggerated
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#61 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#67 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#79 Army Modernization Is Melting Down
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#92 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014b.html#36 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014b.html#38 Can America Win Wars
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014b.html#97 Where does the term Wild Duck come from?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014b.html#106 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#83 11 Years to Catch Up with Seymour
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014d.html#2 Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#36 IBM Historic computing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#46 The Pentagon Wars
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#68 A-10 Attack Jets Rack Up Air-to-Air Kills in Louisiana War Game
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#73 Is end of mainframe near ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014g.html#68 Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014h.html#36 The Designer Of The F-15 Explains Just How Stupid The F-35 Is
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014h.html#90 Friden Flexowriter equipment series
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014h.html#92 Off topic screeds (was Re: Friden Flexowriter equipment series)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014h.html#93 Friden Flexowriter equipment series
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014h.html#98 Friden Flexowriter equipment series
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#62 How Comp-Sci went from passing fad to must have major
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#68 How Comp-Sci went from passing fad to must have major
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#40 LEO
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#16 Keydriven bit permutations
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#59 A-10
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#66 fingerspitzengefuhl and Coup d'oeil
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#82 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#83 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#38 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#61 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#62 past of nukes, was Future of support for telephone rotary dial ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#70 God No, the U.S. Air Force Doesn't Need Another Curtis LeMay
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#76 Your earliest dream?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015c.html#108 Occupy Democrats
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#13 Fully Restored WWII Fighter Plane Up for Auction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#46 Remember 3277?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#9 Why do we keep losing?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#73 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#42 No, the F-35 Can't Fight at Long Range, Either
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#43 No, the F-35 Can't Fight at Long Range, Either
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015g.html#78 New hard drive

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#157398

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-23 09:07 -0600
Message-ID<on57abtjhrtal5hb3cfifpbnjnq22aoa5v@4ax.com>
In reply to#157357
On 22 Jan 2016 19:08:57 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>On 2016-01-22, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>><j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>>>@gmail.com says...
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>>>> >> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>>>> >> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>>>> >
>>>> >Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>>>> >
>>>> >IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>>>> >so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>>>> >
>>>> >Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>>>> >Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>>>> 
>>>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>>>
>>>I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the 
>>>Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was 
>>>using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and 
>>>the IS-3 in production.
>>>
>>>OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without 
>>>much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.
>>
>> Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
>> punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
>> could stand up to them.
>>
>> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
>> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
>> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
>> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
>> should have been shot.
>>
>
>The Sturmovik tankbuster was probably the inspiration for the A-10.

Yup, the German military didn't like the Sturmovik Il-2. It had to be
protected by fighters though.

-- 
JimP.

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#157359

FromMichael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
Date2016-01-22 14:24 -0500
Message-ID<alpine.LNX.2.02.1601221424180.3907@darkstar.example.org>
In reply to#157353
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016, JimP wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>> @gmail.com says...
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>>>>> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>>>>> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>>>>
>>>> Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>>>> so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>>>> Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>>>
>>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>>
>> I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the
>> Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was
>> using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and
>> the IS-3 in production.
>>
>> OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without
>> much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.
>
> Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
> punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
> could stand up to them.
>
> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
> should have been shot.
>
What was Donald Sutherland's line in "Kelly's Heroes"?  Something about 
the only place a specific German tank was vulnerable was from behind?

    Michael

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#157399

FromJimP <solosam90@gmail.com>
Date2016-01-23 09:11 -0600
Message-ID<9u57abpa33j9sb7sf1noauf84kqnsh48as@4ax.com>
In reply to#157359
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:24:56 -0500, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Jan 2016, JimP wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>>> @gmail.com says...
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>>>>>> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>>>>>> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>>>>>
>>>>> Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>>>>> so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>>>>> Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>>>>
>>>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>>>
>>> I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the
>>> Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was
>>> using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and
>>> the IS-3 in production.
>>>
>>> OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without
>>> much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.
>>
>> Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
>> punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
>> could stand up to them.
>>
>> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
>> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
>> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
>> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
>> should have been shot.
>>
>What was Donald Sutherland's line in "Kelly's Heroes"?  Something about 
>the only place a specific German tank was vulnerable was from behind?
>
>    Michael

Yes. Five shermans take on one tiger. 2-3 crews get killed while the
other 2 try to get behind it and fire into its rear armor.

-- 
JimP.

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#157413

FromDave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com>
Date2016-01-23 11:27 -0600
Message-ID<n80d1q$i14$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#157399
On 1/23/2016 9:11 AM, JimP wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:24:56 -0500, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2016, JimP wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:08:51 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>>> <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <p9n2ab9aarjl4j12a45md9ahhh4atgpn7m@4ax.com>, solosam90
>>>> @gmail.com says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:27:42 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 8:40:37 PM UTC-5, JimP wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Patton apparently wanted to de-Nazify Germany and then partner with
>>>>>>> them to take on the Soviets. He should have paid better attention to
>>>>>>> the meant grinder that was the Eastern Front.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Patton didn't care about "meat grinders".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, Patton also felt that war with the Soviets was inevitable,
>>>>>> so he felt the times were good to take them on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fortunately, cooler heads did recognize the meat grinder of the
>>>>>> Eastern Front and had no desire to repeat it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Soviets had better thanks by the end of WW2 as well. The T-34/85.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that there was ever a time during the WWII era when the
>>>> Soviet union did _not_ have better thanks than those that the US was
>>>> using at the end of the war.  And by the end the IS-2 was in service and
>>>> the IS-3 in production.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, I suspect that the US could have achieved air dominance without
>>>> much difficulty, and air dominance pretty much neutralizes armor.
>>>
>>> Well, I wasn't much impressed by the B1 and the B-2. But they could
>>> punch holes in the PKW II and III. The Panther, as far as I remember,
>>> could stand up to them.
>>>
>>> The Sherman, a medium tank, was more a joke and got many crews killed.
>>> I have seen a documentary on the Panther tank. The Panther Regimental
>>> commander they interviewed for the documentary said not only was he
>>> not afraid of the Sherman Firefly, those who put men into the Sherman
>>> should have been shot.
>>>
>> What was Donald Sutherland's line in "Kelly's Heroes"?  Something about
>> the only place a specific German tank was vulnerable was from behind?
>>
>>     Michael
>
> Yes. Five shermans take on one tiger. 2-3 crews get killed while the
> other 2 try to get behind it and fire into its rear armor.
>
The American attitude was, we produced lots of Shermans, and we had 
lots of crews. Shermans were reliable and cheap. Tigers were few and 
costly.

Of course, the Sherman was designed for rolling support of infantry, 
it wasn't designed (nor particularly suited.. underarmored and 
undergunned) for tank to tank battles. Crews tried to improvise 
additional armor but that increased the weight and reliability 
suffered. It wasn't until close to the end of the war that the 
better-suited Pershing tanks began to appear.

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