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Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

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First post	2016-03-23 02:31 -0700
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#161691 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date	2016-03-31 07:37 +0100
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<20160331073718.0c507cbb1c7286df6e4ffaf2@eircom.net>
In reply to	#161688

On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300
Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:

> 
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> 
> > 	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
> > with a grounding in basic computer science.
> 
> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
> eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.  
> 
> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
> to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
> same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
> an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

	That is alarming.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#161702 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date	2016-03-31 10:39 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<dm4d3fFflomU21@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#161691

On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:37:18 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300 Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> 
>> > 	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
>> > with a grounding in basic computer science.
>> 
>> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>> eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.
>> 
>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>> appalled to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>> same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>> an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
> 
> 	That is alarming.

Although I was teaching my students about multiprocessors over 30 yaers 
ago (having done multiprocessing code for an operating system). So at 
least mine knew the difference.




-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#161794 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net>
Date	2016-04-01 13:09 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<27ltfbdfbol4104lkhneda05iqodvmrm7n@4ax.com>
In reply to	#161691

On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:37:18 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

>On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300
>Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
>> 
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> 
>> > 	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
>> > with a grounding in basic computer science.
>> 
>> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>> eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.  
>> 
>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
>> to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>> same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>> an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
>
>	That is alarming.

     Truly.

     I got my BCS in 2010.  I remember one explanation of how the
computer executes code that was simplified to the point of being very
misleading.  Many things that I learned in my teen years were not
covered in the program.  I am referring to useful things like how
floating point arithmetic works!

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#161796

From	Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date	2016-04-01 17:05 -0400
Message-ID	<635089852.481237035.562402.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161794

Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:37:18 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300
>> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> 
>>>> Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
>>>> with a grounding in basic computer science.
>>> 
>>> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>>> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>>> eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.  
>>> 
>>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
>>> to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>>> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>>> same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>>> an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>>> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
>> 
>> That is alarming.
> 
>      Truly.
> 
>      I got my BCS in 2010.  I remember one explanation of how the
> computer executes code that was simplified to the point of being very
> misleading.  Many things that I learned in my teen years were not
> covered in the program.  I am referring to useful things like how
> floating point arithmetic works!
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Wirchenko
> 

If you understand it, maybe you  could explain it to me! (just kidding)

-- 
Pete

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#161800 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date	2016-04-01 23:10 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<dm8dfcFflomU34@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#161794

On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:09:09 -0700, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:37:18 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
>>On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300 Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> 
>>> > 	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
>>> > with a grounding in basic computer science.
>>> 
>>> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>>> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>>> eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.
>>> 
>>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>>> appalled to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>>> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>>> same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>>> an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>>> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
>>
>>	That is alarming.
> 
>      Truly.
> 
>      I got my BCS in 2010.  I remember one explanation of how the
> computer executes code that was simplified to the point of being very
> misleading.  Many things that I learned in my teen years were not
> covered in the program.  I am referring to useful things like how
> floating point arithmetic works!

Where I worked (until 3 months ago) we taught that in the very firstv 
semester.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#161935 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com>
Date	2016-04-03 19:25 -0400
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<proto-E5BFE4.19250903042016@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#161794

In article <27ltfbdfbol4104lkhneda05iqodvmrm7n@4ax.com>,
 Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.
<SNIP> 
>      I got my BCS in 2010.  I remember one explanation of how the
> computer executes code that was simplified to the point of being very
> misleading.  Many things that I learned in my teen years were not
> covered in the program.  I am referring to useful things like how
> floating point arithmetic works!
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Gene Wirchenko

Or doesn't work! Some compilers will rearrange floating point operations
by the rules that work for real numbers. This is invalid in general. 
Suppose you debug with optimization turned off and put the program
into production with optimization turned on.

Oopsie!

-- 
 To terrify children with the image of hell,
 to consider women an inferior creation is that good for the world?  
  Christopher Hitchens

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#161956 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net>
Date	2016-04-03 20:04 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<gbm3gbh7n1rm0qov8nf27bqbb15lejj9aq@4ax.com>
In reply to	#161935

On Sun, 03 Apr 2016 19:25:09 -0400, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com>
wrote:

>In article <27ltfbdfbol4104lkhneda05iqodvmrm7n@4ax.com>,
> Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.
><SNIP> 
>>      I got my BCS in 2010.  I remember one explanation of how the
>> computer executes code that was simplified to the point of being very
>> misleading.  Many things that I learned in my teen years were not
>> covered in the program.  I am referring to useful things like how
>> floating point arithmetic works!

>Or doesn't work! Some compilers will rearrange floating point operations
>by the rules that work for real numbers. This is invalid in general. 
>Suppose you debug with optimization turned off and put the program
>into production with optimization turned on.
>
>Oopsie!

    Quite.

    Mind you, knowing how floating point works, I was able to do exact
calculations with it for a limited set of values.  Effectively, I
recreated fixed-point arithmetic using floating point.  I had to
because JavaScript only has one numeric type (a float).

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#161934

From	Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com>
Date	2016-04-03 19:21 -0400
Message-ID	<proto-47590B.19210403042016@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#161691

In article <20160331073718.0c507cbb1c7286df6e4ffaf2@eircom.net>,
 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300
> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> > 
> > >     Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
> > > with a grounding in basic computer science.
> > 
> > It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
> > mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
> > eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.  
> > 
> > Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
> > about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
> > to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
> > "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
> > same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
> > an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
> > preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
> 
>         That is alarming.

 Hey, if it's microseconds or even milliseconds between swaps of 
attention, it's the same from a human's point of view. Mayhap, not
if you're being charged for actual CPU time.

-- 
 To terrify children with the image of hell,
 to consider women an inferior creation is that good for the world?  
  Christopher Hitchens

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#161720 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com>
Date	2016-03-31 15:56 +0100
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<dcdqfbt0299cf3h15me2bgvb6t7v5f4mdg@4ax.com>
In reply to	#161688

On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
wrote:

>
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> 	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do with
>> a grounding in basic computer science.
>
>It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.  
>
>Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
>to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>"simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

Multiprocessor mainframes where around when I was a computer engineer
in the 1970s. The number of processors didn't make any difference to
most programs. It was left up to the low levels of the operating
system to decide which thread ran on which processors. On Windows
SetThreadIdealProcessor is the key. I can't remember if UNIX has
anything similar . 

Steve

-- 
Neural Network Software for Windows                 http://www.npsnn.com

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#161730 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date	2016-03-31 10:08 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<87h9fmlgmm.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to	#161720

Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com> writes:
> Multiprocessor mainframes where around when I was a computer engineer
> in the 1970s. The number of processors didn't make any difference to
> most programs. It was left up to the low levels of the operating
> system to decide which thread ran on which processors. On Windows
> SetThreadIdealProcessor is the key. I can't remember if UNIX has
> anything similar . 

I've commented before about charlie invented compare&swap (chosen
because CAS are his initials) while doing fine-grain multiprocessor
locking working on CP67 at the science center.
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
and
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp

then we attempted to get it added to 370 architecture. initially was
rebuffed because the POK favorite son operating system people said that
test&set was more than adequate for multiprocessor support (serializing
critical code sections). The 370 architecture owners said that to get it
justified would require additional uses, not just multiprocessor
serialization. Thus was invented the multiprogramming/multithreading
examples (used whether or not running on multiprocessor machine) that
still are shown in the principles of operation.

This was especially leveraged by large multithreading DBMS avoiding
needing to make kernel calls for lots of serialization ... and by the
80s lots of other platforms (especially those supporting high-throughput DBMS)
were including compare&swap (or instructions with similar semantics).

Since then there has been quite a bit about holy grail in programming to
provide paradigm easily supporting multiple concurrent operations ...
instead of sequential, serial, step-by-step operation.

Old posts repeating story of Gates ordering Intel to keep producing
faster&faster single processor/core chips ... because multi-core
software programming was too hard. Gelsinger tells Gates that it wasn't
going to work that way:
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2007i.html#78 John W. Backus, 82, Fortran developer, dies
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2007m.html#2 John W. Backus, 82, Fortran developer, dies
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2008f.html#42 Panic in Multicore Land
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#15 Why do people say "the soda loop is often depicted as a simple loop"?
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#44 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2012l.html#90 Blades versus z was Re: Turn Off Another Light - Univ. of Tennessee
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2012m.html#28 I.B.M. Mainframe Evolves to Serve the Digital World
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#48 New HD
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2014d.html#85 Parallel programming may not be so daunting
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#118 By the time we get to 'O' in OODA

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#161749 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date	2016-03-31 12:51 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<871t6ql93q.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to	#161730

Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> Old posts repeating story of Gates ordering Intel to keep producing
> faster&faster single processor/core chips ... because multi-core
> software programming was too hard. Gelsinger tells Gates that it wasn't
> going to work that way:

re:
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2016c.html#56 Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer  Programming?

Intel's Broadwell Xeon E5-2600 v4 chips: So what's in it for you,
smartie-pants coders; New instructions, transactions, virtualization
features and more
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/31/intel_broadwell_ep_xeon_e5_2600_v4/

e5-2600 is two socket ... so 22cores/socket is 44core 
and 88 thread SMP

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#161742 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter)
Date	2016-03-31 19:19 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<ndjt7v$u16$1@pechter.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161688

In article <87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
Mike Spencer  <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> 	Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do with
>> a grounding in basic computer science.
>
>It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>eccentrics.  A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.  
>
>Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
>to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>"simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
>
>-- 
>Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~. 
>                                                           /V\ 
>                                                          /( )\
>                                                          ^^-^^


Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid 80's.
Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.  So 1987...
So it was possible these things were available to him at that time.
I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the late 1980s and by the 
early 1990's they were very common in colleges.

SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to Wikipedia) and so
they had to be  available in the 1988 timeframe... so by 25 years ago these
things were easily available to businesses.


Bill

(worked for both DEC and Pyramid back in the day...and played sysadmin
on the Pyramid SMP boxes and just missed the DEC ones by moving off Vaxes
by the early 1990s)


-- 
-- 
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/

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#161745 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date	2016-03-31 12:42 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<878u0yl9hm.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to	#161742

pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter) writes:
> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to Wikipedia) and so
> they had to be  available in the 1988 timeframe... so by 25 years ago these
> things were easily available to businesses.

post with some SMP VAX announce ... and analysis for VMS transition from
master/slave implementation to symmetrical support, 8March88, 8800
series symmetric
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2007.html#46 How many 36-bit Unix ports in the old days?

old posts with decade of vax sales, sliced & diced by model, year,
us/non-US
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0 Computers in Science Fiction

vax and IBM 4300 sold into the same mid-range market and in similar
numbers ... excepting the large corporate multi-hundred 4300 orders.

as seen in the vax nos, by the mid-80s, the mid-range market was
starting to move to workstations and large PCs (4300s saw similar
effect).

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#161748 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx>
Date	2016-03-31 19:46 +0000
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<dm5d4pFflomU25@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#161742

On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:19:27 +0000, William Pechter wrote:

> Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid 80's.
> Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.  So 1987...
> So it was possible these things were available to him at that time.
> I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the late 1980s and by
> the early 1990's they were very common in colleges.

We were using an SMP mainframe back in 1983 (ICL, rather than IBM) on a 
home grown operating system (I did some of the SMP stuff).

> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to Wikipedia)
> and so they had to be  available in the 1988 timeframe... so by 25 years
> ago these things were easily available to businesses.

The VAX may have had SMP announced then, but it was actually more like 
late 1987 or early 1988 before VMS 5.0 was formally around to do it.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#161932 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
Date	2016-04-03 19:39 -0300
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<87a8la2u6i.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to	#161742

pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter) writes:

> In article <87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
> Mike Spencer  <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>> appalled to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple
>> programs "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op
>> codes at the same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or
>> multi-core machines were an article of commerce.  I thought he was
>> supposed to have spent the preceding 4 years getting "a grounding
>> in basic computer science."
>
> Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid
> 80's.  Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.
> So 1987...  So it was possible these things were available to him at
> that time.  I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the
> late 1980s and by the early 1990's they were very common in
> colleges.
> 
> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to
> Wikipedia) and so they had to be available in the 1988
> timeframe... so by 25 years ago these things were easily available
> to businesses.

I didn't know that.  The student on whom I remarked had had at least
a couple of Vaxen available along with numerous Intel micros and
(presumably) other machines I  didn't know about.  Perhaps our
conversation related to his first exposure to a DEC Ultrix
workstation. 

> (worked for both DEC and Pyramid back in the day...and played sysadmin
> on the Pyramid SMP boxes and just missed the DEC ones by moving off Vaxes
> by the early 1990s)

-- 
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~. 
                                                           /V\ 
                                                          /( )\
                                                          ^^-^^

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#161940 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date	2016-04-04 02:08 +0200
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<atn8tc-ij3.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to	#161932

In article <87a8la2u6i.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
Mike Spencer  <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
>pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter) writes:
>
>> In article <87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
>> Mike Spencer  <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>>> appalled to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple
>>> programs "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op
>>> codes at the same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or
>>> multi-core machines were an article of commerce.  I thought he was
>>> supposed to have spent the preceding 4 years getting "a grounding
>>> in basic computer science."
>>
>> Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid
>> 80's.  Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.
>> So 1987...  So it was possible these things were available to him at
>> that time.  I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the
>> late 1980s and by the early 1990's they were very common in
>> colleges.
>> 
>> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to
>> Wikipedia) and so they had to be available in the 1988
>> timeframe... so by 25 years ago these things were easily available
>> to businesses.
>
>I didn't know that.  The student on whom I remarked had had at least
>a couple of Vaxen available along with numerous Intel micros and
>(presumably) other machines I  didn't know about.  Perhaps our
>conversation related to his first exposure to a DEC Ultrix
>workstation. 

Also, altos and ncr had multiprocessor 80386 systems, the ncr
ones went to 16 processors; which was quite a stretch at that
time. ISTR it was a 4 by 4 NUMA with some bus interconnect, and
4 80386'es with some FPGA to negotiate the memory buses.

NCR had a very brief life as a computer vendor in that round.

ISTR the Altos one was a simple 2processor one, but I may be
mistaken.

>> (worked for both DEC and Pyramid back in the day...and played sysadmin
>> on the Pyramid SMP boxes and just missed the DEC ones by moving off Vaxes
>> by the early 1990s)

-- mrr

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#161981

From	jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date	2016-04-04 12:58 +0000
Message-ID	<PM00052FA7EB8E08E6@aca40be9.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to	#161940

Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <87a8la2u6i.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
> Mike Spencer  <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>>
>>pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter) writes:
>>
>>> In article <87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
>>> Mike Spencer  <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>>>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>>>> appalled to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple
>>>> programs "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op
>>>> codes at the same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or
>>>> multi-core machines were an article of commerce.  I thought he was
>>>> supposed to have spent the preceding 4 years getting "a grounding
>>>> in basic computer science."
>>>
>>> Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid
>>> 80's.  Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.
>>> So 1987...  So it was possible these things were available to him at
>>> that time.  I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the
>>> late 1980s and by the early 1990's they were very common in
>>> colleges.
>>>
>>> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to
>>> Wikipedia) and so they had to be available in the 1988
>>> timeframe... so by 25 years ago these things were easily available
>>> to businesses.
>>
>>I didn't know that.  The student on whom I remarked had had at least
>>a couple of Vaxen available along with numerous Intel micros and
>>(presumably) other machines I  didn't know about.  Perhaps our
>>conversation related to his first exposure to a DEC Ultrix
>>workstation.
>
> Also, altos and ncr had multiprocessor 80386 systems, the ncr
> ones went to 16 processors; which was quite a stretch at that
> time. ISTR it was a 4 by 4 NUMA with some bus interconnect, and
> 4 80386'es with some FPGA to negotiate the memory buses.
>
> NCR had a very brief life as a computer vendor in that round.
>
> ISTR the Altos one was a simple 2processor one, but I may be
> mistaken.
>
>>> (worked for both DEC and Pyramid back in the day...and played sysadmin
>>> on the Pyramid SMP boxes and just missed the DEC ones by moving off Vaxes
>>> by the early 1990s)

DEC's KA multiprocesser system was the 1055.
The KI multiprocessor system was the 1077.
The KL multiprocessor system was the 1088.
the 1055 was, IIRC, 1972.

/BAH

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#161832 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date	2016-04-02 12:46 -0700
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<5cc544b6-23ff-4827-a0cd-5f001d871b06@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#161688

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 2:11:10 AM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:

> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
> to learn  that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
> same time.  This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
> an article of commerce.  I thought he was supposed to have spent the
> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

If the student was supposed to have past training as a systems
programmer, then he probably should've had a better understanding
of the internals.  However, if he was studying application development
(or perhaps something like database structures), then much of what
went on "under the hood" was transparent to the application person,
and by that point, justifiably so.  (Note that some grad students
have their undergraduate degree in a totally different field, and
might not have the background*.)

I remember years ago when I took drivers' ed, there was a debate in
that field in how much mechanical knowledge students should have.
Yes, students should be able to change a flat and check the oil.  
But should students be taught how to _change_ the oil?  Should
they understand the _internals_ of an automatic transmission, or
just know when to use D/1/2 settings?

The point is, that when technology marches forward, it becomes
more and more specialized.  Learning how to program and run a
1401 required a different approach than the later S/360.  I don't
think 1401 sites had dedicated 'systems programmers' since there
wasn't an operating system to maintain, but larger S/360 sites 
required such people to tune and optimize OS/360, CICS, and 
maintain the systems programs.  

Going further back, yes, tab machine operators knew how to both
wire a plugboard and fix minor hardware problems.  Undoubtedly,
a few S/360 application programmers knew how to fix some stuff,
but I dare say almost all hardware issues were given to the C/E.

* See the book "Film School", about a guy who was a medical tech
getting his master's in film at USC.  Interesting, but disturbing
book.  The professors were quite prejudiced.  Also, if the equipment
assigned to a student failed--as it often did due to age--the
student did not get any extension to finish their project.

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#161933 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
Date	2016-04-03 19:54 -0300
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<877fge2ti2.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>
In reply to	#161832

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> I remember years ago when I took drivers' ed, there was a debate in
> that field in how much mechanical knowledge students should have.
> Yes, students should be able to change a flat and check the oil.  
> But should students be taught how to _change_ the oil?  Should
> they understand the _internals_ of an automatic transmission, or
> just know when to use D/1/2 settings?

Interesting that such a debate occurred.  I've long belived that
everbody should have some basic knowledge of (what I think of, rather
loosely as) the next level down from the one at which they're working.
Drivers should indeed have some understanding of the internal
combustion engine and maybe even the auto trans.

Mechanics should have some basic knowledge of metallurgy, heat and
electricity. [1] They shouldn't look at the fracrture surfaceof a
broken crankshaft and say, "Look, it crystalized".

Automotive engineers should have a basic knowledge of the chemistry
and physics that supports the engineering.

And so on, mutatis mutandem for other domains.

But maybe I just think too much. :-)

[1] Well, once upon a time, anyhow.  I've given up working on my own
    relatively new car because it's all black-box.  My next new car,
    should I live long enough to need one, may be a fully restored
    1970s Land Rover.  About the same price as a new Toy Ota.

-- 
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~. 
                                                           /V\ 
                                                          /( )\
                                                          ^^-^^

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#161943 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

From	"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date	2016-04-03 20:15 -0400
Subject	Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?
Message-ID	<MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#161933

In article <877fge2ti2.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>, 
mspencer@tallships.ca says...
> 
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> 
> > I remember years ago when I took drivers' ed, there was a debate in
> > that field in how much mechanical knowledge students should have.
> > Yes, students should be able to change a flat and check the oil.  
> > But should students be taught how to _change_ the oil?  Should
> > they understand the _internals_ of an automatic transmission, or
> > just know when to use D/1/2 settings?
> 
> Interesting that such a debate occurred.  I've long belived that
> everbody should have some basic knowledge of (what I think of, rather
> loosely as) the next level down from the one at which they're working.
> Drivers should indeed have some understanding of the internal
> combustion engine and maybe even the auto trans.
> 
> Mechanics should have some basic knowledge of metallurgy, heat and
> electricity. [1] They shouldn't look at the fracrture surfaceof a
> broken crankshaft and say, "Look, it crystalized".
> 
> Automotive engineers should have a basic knowledge of the chemistry
> and physics that supports the engineering.
> 
> And so on, mutatis mutandem for other domains.
> 
> But maybe I just think too much. :-)

I think you're on the right track but in the case of driving I think 
understanding vehicle dynamics is more important than understanding how 
the engine works (especially considering that these days the engine 
doesn't necessarily work that way).  Disaster is more likely to come 
from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place 
can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in 
the engine.

> [1] Well, once upon a time, anyhow.  I've given up working on my own
>     relatively new car because it's all black-box.  My next new car,
>     should I live long enough to need one, may be a fully restored
>     1970s Land Rover.  About the same price as a new Toy Ota.

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Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

Contents

#161691 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161702 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161794 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161796

#161800 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161935 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161956 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161934

#161720 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161730 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161749 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161742 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161745 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161748 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161932 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161940 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161981

#161832 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161933 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?

#161943 — Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming?