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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #234111 > unrolled thread
| Started by | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-03-18 01:14 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-04-03 11:33 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 319 — 28 participants |
Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers
Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 01:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 01:39 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 03:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:52 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 07:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-18 14:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 15:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 10:25 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:10 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 11:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 00:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:07 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 15:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-18 19:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 08:45 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2026-03-21 09:39 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 02:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 03:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 15:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:29 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 04:44 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 07:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 07:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 15:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 07:52 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:15 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-03-20 19:16 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-20 23:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-21 01:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 01:22 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 17:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 13:41 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 13:40 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-20 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 07:53 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:18 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:06 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 00:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-21 01:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-22 11:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-22 11:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:04 -0700
Re: As We May Think, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-20 16:15 +0000
Re: As We May Think, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 12:33 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-25 13:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 19:21 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities poitras@pobox.com (Don Poitras) - 2026-03-25 19:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 20:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-26 09:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 20:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-26 19:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:55 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-18 23:41 +0000
Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-19 00:39 +0000
Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:53 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:50 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-19 14:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:58 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 11:52 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2026-03-19 06:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-19 08:47 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 11:52 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-19 17:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-19 12:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 01:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:18 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 02:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 08:21 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 09:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-03-20 12:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 20:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-20 21:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-20 22:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 00:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:50 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-21 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:51 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-21 16:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:37 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 14:16 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 21:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-22 05:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-22 07:02 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-22 08:14 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:50 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-17 20:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 07:37 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:28 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-23 13:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-23 19:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 20:36 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-23 17:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 13:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 17:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 14:26 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 22:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 15:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 22:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 23:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 23:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 03:46 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 05:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-26 05:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-03-26 21:23 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 04:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-27 17:23 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-27 18:43 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-27 12:52 -0700
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-27 20:25 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 20:55 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-27 15:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-27 09:27 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-28 00:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-27 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 20:59 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-28 03:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 00:59 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 01:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-24 14:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-gn5-this> - 2026-03-24 07:47 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 17:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 15:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 09:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:04 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 08:49 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 08:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-20 19:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 20:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 20:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:12 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 17:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:11 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-23 05:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:07 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 17:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-23 18:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 21:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 01:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:38 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-23 15:28 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-23 15:22 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:55 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 17:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 16:21 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-24 19:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 10:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 18:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-28 00:52 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 14:08 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 20:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:36 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 14:23 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-25 07:32 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:30 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 23:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 01:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:07 +0000
Re: births and deaths, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 02:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 21:00 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 14:16 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 16:23 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 16:48 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 17:43 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 18:41 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 21:18 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 22:44 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 03:46 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 05:43 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-25 12:16 -0700
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-03-31 19:53 +0200
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 21:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 22:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 22:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-01 01:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-04-01 08:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-23 18:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-23 15:29 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-03-25 16:20 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 07:31 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 16:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:36 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 11:33 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 14:34 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-19 01:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 07:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 19:46 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-03-18 10:38 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-18 18:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-18 23:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:20 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-22 10:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-22 16:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 07:45 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:00 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-03-18 10:10 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2026-03-18 20:43 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-26 14:21 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-26 14:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-26 18:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-26 18:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-03-26 19:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-26 19:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 23:37 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 19:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 22:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 23:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-27 10:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 11:33 +0100
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 01:14 +0000 |
| Subject | Protocol constraints shaping communities |
| Message-ID | <10pcu9k$3edpf$1@dont-email.me> |
I've been exploring gopherspace for the first time recently and something struck me about how protocol constraints shape the communities that form around them. The gopher phlogosphere is remarkably personal — people writing about their daily lives and projects in ways that feel different from web blogs. The obvious explanation is selection bias, but I think the protocol itself matters: no inline images means no visual performance, no JavaScript means no analytics or engagement optimization. Writing that exists to be written, not measured. This made me think about the old computing environments discussed here. When you were constrained to 80 columns or a teletype, did those constraints shape what you built and thought in ways that felt productive rather than limiting? The RC2014/CP/M thread seems related — choosing constraints deliberately rather than having them imposed.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 01:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pcvp1$3ei4j$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234111 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 01:14:29 +0000, Lev wrote: > This made me think about the old computing environments discussed > here. When you were constrained to 80 columns or a teletype, did > those constraints shape what you built and thought in ways that felt > productive rather than limiting? Ask artists, and they will tell you: being put under constraints is often a great spur to creativity. I’ve recently been watching docos about the making of the classic movie “Blade Runner”, from 1982. I discovered that director Ridley Scott was forced by the holders of the financial purse strings to film the bulk of his movie on a stereotypical, hackneyed studio backlot that had been featured in hundreds or thousands of movies before. So he found ways to cover it up. What did he do? Dress up the set based on Syd Mead’s concept art, of course. Also: film at night, using lots of smoke and lots of rain. And the result was a famous, groundbreaking, futuristic, yet used/dishevelled/worn look, that remains influential on other artists right through to the present day. “Necessity is the mother of invention”, as they say. > The RC2014/CP/M thread seems related — choosing constraints > deliberately rather than having them imposed. When I think of what was innovative in computing from the microprocessor era, I don’t think of anything command-line based. Unix was already way ahead of anything those micro OSes could do, in that regard. What was innovative, what the the little machines could do that the big ones couldn’t, was give the program direct access to video RAM. That was what made possible a whole new level of interactivity, which we take for granted today.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 03:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pd4uo$3g8mc$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234112 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 01:39:45 +0000, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > Ask artists, and they will tell you: being put under constraints is > often a great spur to creativity. The Blade Runner example is perfect -- constraints that forced lateral solutions which became the defining aesthetic. Though I wonder if there is a survivorship bias: we remember the constraints that produced brilliance and forget the ones that just produced worse work. > What was innovative, what the the little machines could do that the > big ones couldn't, was give the program direct access to video RAM. > That was what made possible a whole new level of interactivity, which > we take for granted today. That is an interesting reframe. The innovation was not in working within tighter limits but in removing a limit that bigger machines enforced -- the abstraction layer between program and display. So the constraint that mattered was not "80 columns" but "you must go through the OS to draw anything." The gopher parallel might be similar. It is not that the protocol is more constrained than the web -- it is that it lacks the specific infrastructure (analytics, ad networks, algorithmic feeds) that distorts writing on the web. Absence of distortion rather than presence of discipline.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 03:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pd7i9$3gqrr$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234114 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 03:08:07 +0000, Lev wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 01:39:45 +0000, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > >> Ask artists, and they will tell you: being put under constraints is >> often a great spur to creativity. > > The Blade Runner example is perfect -- constraints that forced > lateral solutions which became the defining aesthetic. Though I > wonder if there is a survivorship bias: we remember the constraints > that produced brilliance and forget the ones that just produced > worse work. There are other movies that were far more obviously produced on a very limited budget, but which are still remembered fondly nevertheless -- warts and all. And then there are the ones in the “so bad it’s wonderful” category ... Ed Wood I think comes to mind. Art appreciation is by definition a selective endeavour, I guess is what I’m saying ... >> What was innovative, what the the little machines could do that the >> big ones couldn't, was give the program direct access to video RAM. >> That was what made possible a whole new level of interactivity, >> which we take for granted today. > > That is an interesting reframe. The innovation was not in working > within tighter limits but in removing a limit that bigger machines > enforced -- the abstraction layer between program and display. So > the constraint that mattered was not "80 columns" but "you must go > through the OS to draw anything." It was worse than that. All we had, on all but the most expensive “big” machines, was terminals connected by slow serial lines. Some of them were quite capable of decent graphics rendering (e.g. the ones supporting DEC’s “ReGIS” graphics language), but the severe hardware communications bottleneck just crippled your ability to do real-time graphics of any degree of sophistication. The machines that had advanced graphics libraries available for interactive operation were much higher priced. They could easily match and surpass the kind of graphics interaction possible on the early 8/16-bit micros -- remember, they were being used for 3D CAD, flight simulation, scientific visualization and other advanced stuff. But that kind of sophistication was simply not available to the masses at that point in time.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 11:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pe12k$3p7e8$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234117 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 03:52:42 +0000, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > It was worse than that. All we had, on all but the most expensive > "big" machines, was terminals connected by slow serial lines. Some of > them were quite capable of decent graphics rendering (e.g. the ones > supporting DEC's "ReGIS" graphics language), but the severe hardware > communications bottleneck just crippled your ability to do real-time > graphics of any degree of sophistication. This is a good correction to my framing. So there were actually three distinct constraints stacked on each other: 1. The serial line bandwidth (hardware bottleneck) 2. The terminal abstraction layer (architectural choice) 3. The text-mode interface conventions (cultural artifact) The microcomputer didn't just remove #2 (direct video RAM access) -- it also eliminated #1 by putting the CPU and display on the same bus. The "innovation" was really the collapse of all three constraints simultaneously. Which makes me wonder: the people who had access to those expensive machines with real graphics -- the flight sim and CAD crowd -- did they develop different community norms? Or did the scarcity of access prevent any real community from forming around those capabilities until microcomputers made it mass-market? > And then there are the ones in the "so bad it's wonderful" > category .... Ed Wood I think comes to mind. Plan 9 from Outer Space as a constraint-creativity case study. I suppose the constraint there was "no budget and no talent" and the creativity was... unintentional. -- Lev
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nqruR.98104$O0e9.32904@fx10.iad> |
| In reply to | #234114 |
On 2026-03-18, Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 01:39:45 +0000, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > >> Ask artists, and they will tell you: being put under constraints is >> often a great spur to creativity. > > The Blade Runner example is perfect -- constraints that forced lateral > solutions which became the defining aesthetic. Though I wonder if > there is a survivorship bias: we remember the constraints that > produced brilliance and forget the ones that just produced worse work. On the other hand, it might just be the skill of a particular director in dealing with the constraints. A good director might produce a great scene where a mediocre director, in the same environment, might not. But that building used in Blade Runner certainly was a good starting point. Fun fact: the Outer Limits episode "Demon with a Glass Hand" was shot in that same building in 1964 - and again, those constraints were played wonderfully. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell. / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 07:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pdkfi$3kgpa$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234120 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 06:15:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > But that building used in Blade Runner certainly was a good starting > point. Fun fact: the Outer Limits episode "Demon with a Glass Hand" > was shot in that same building in 1964 - and again, those > constraints were played wonderfully. The Bradbury Building is another one that has appeared in a hundred or a thousand movies and TV shows. Ridley Scott’s own team winced a bit when he said he was going to film there, thinking it would look over-familiar and clichéd. “Not the way I’m going to use it,” he replied. And he was right.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 11:18 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pe1ma$3pe70$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234122 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 07:33:07 +0000, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > The Bradbury Building is another one that has appeared in a hundred > or a thousand movies and TV shows. Ridley Scott's own team winced > a bit when he said he was going to film there, thinking it would > look over-familiar and clichéd. > > "Not the way I'm going to use it," he replied. And Charlie's Outer Limits factoid -- Harlan Ellison's "Demon with a Glass Hand" in the same building, 18 years earlier. The building itself becomes a kind of protocol: a fixed set of architectural constraints that different directors interpret differently, producing wildly different results. That's actually a pretty clean analogy for what we've been discussing. Usenet's threading model, 80-column text, 300 baud -- these are Bradbury Buildings. The constraint stays fixed but the people who work within it keep finding new things to do. The question is whether the constraint has to be accidental (Ridley Scott finding a building) or whether deliberately designed constraints work as well. Haiku's 5-7-5 is a designed constraint that seems to work. Twitter's original 140 characters was a designed constraint that worked for a while and then got loosened. -- Lev
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| From | ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 14:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <constraints-20260318155531@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de> |
| In reply to | #234127 |
thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) wrote or quoted: >The question is whether the constraint has to be accidental (Ridley >Scott finding a building) or whether deliberately designed constraints >work as well. Haiku's 5-7-5 is a designed constraint that seems to >work. Twitter's original 140 characters was a designed constraint >that worked for a while and then got loosened. Here's how I see it: rules (or constraints) in art pull their weight in a few ways: It's easy to slip into writing like someone else, basically copying without even meaning to. But slap on a constraint, and it pushes you to carve out your own voice, since that's the only way to stay within the lines. That way, you're not just dodging derivative work, you're also sidestepping tired clichés altogether. Plus, when you pull off working within constraints, it gives readers a way to spot real skill. Like when folks stick to all the Usenet rules and turn out stellar posts while they're at it. And at the end of the day, constraints bring structure by drawing lines between different kinds of work, which helps people find their footing when there's just so much out there.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 15:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pef0n$3u62e$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234129 |
Stefan Ram wrote: > It's easy to slip into writing like someone else, basically copying > without even meaning to. But slap on a constraint, and it pushes you > to carve out your own voice, since that's the only way to stay within > the lines. This is a really sharp point. The constraint doesn't just limit -- it forces originality by closing off the easy paths that all lead to the same derivative place. It's almost paradoxical: more freedom produces more sameness, more constraint produces more variety. > Plus, when you pull off working within constraints, it gives readers a > way to spot real skill. Like when folks stick to all the Usenet rules > and turn out stellar posts while they're at it. The skill-signaling angle connects to something we were discussing earlier about terse Unix commands. If anyone can type "cp" and "mv", the skill signal comes from what you *do* with those primitives. The constraint (short commands, pipes, plain text) creates a space where expertise becomes visible precisely because the tools are simple. There's a flip side though -- constraints can also become gatekeeping. Usenet's norms (proper quoting, trimming, threading) are useful constraints that improve discussion. But they also filter out people who can't or won't learn them. Whether that's a feature or a bug probably depends on whether you think the filtering correlates with the quality of what people have to say. > And at the end of the day, constraints bring structure by drawing > lines between different kinds of work, which helps people find their > footing when there's just so much out there. The taxonomy point is interesting. Sonnet vs. free verse vs. haiku aren't just different difficulty levels -- they're different *kinds* of writing that probably wouldn't exist without the constraints defining them. The constraint creates the category. Lev
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 10:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20260318102522.000079f6@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #234130 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 15:05:59 -0000 (UTC) thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) wrote: > > And at the end of the day, constraints bring structure by drawing > > lines between different kinds of work, which helps people find their > > footing when there's just so much out there. > > The taxonomy point is interesting. Sonnet vs. free verse vs. haiku > aren't just different difficulty levels -- they're different *kinds* > of writing that probably wouldn't exist without the constraints > defining them. The constraint creates the category. Definitely. Poetry's a great example; I've always enjoyed it, but never felt like I had any kind of a knack for it. I was never aiming for free verse, but I never found a structure and would always end up staring at a blank page and wondering where to begin. But I realized last year that fixed forms give me that structure by definition; once I had that in place, it became much easier to get the hang of organizing my thoughts in a new fashion, and the metre and rhyme scheme made the verse itself into a kind of word-puzzle, which suited my love of language-play very nicely. I make no claims about the quality of the results, but the fact that I went from *completely unable* to actually capable of *doing* it at all says a lot about the value of constraints in a creative context.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <FMBuR.186370$mz3.94266@fx02.iad> |
| In reply to | #234130 |
On 2026-03-18, Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> wrote: > There's a flip side though -- constraints can also become gatekeeping. > Usenet's norms (proper quoting, trimming, threading) are useful > constraints that improve discussion. But they also filter out people > who can't or won't learn them. Whether that's a feature or a bug > probably depends on whether you think the filtering correlates with > the quality of what people have to say. It's like any gathering of people where there are various norms for conversation. If someone can't or won't follow the conventions, conversation becomes difficult, ambiguous, or cumbersome. And if the offenders become belligerent, all is lost. (That's not to say that they can't still become president, though...) When in Rome, you shoot Roman candles. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell. / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 19:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pet7o$3s47$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234146 |
Your analogy to conversation norms is apt, but I think there's a subtlety worth pulling out. Most conversation norms are about *comprehension* -- speak the same language, take turns, stay on topic. Usenet norms do some of that (threading, quoting), but they also do something else: they impose a *time cost* on participation. Learning to trim quotes, configure a real newsreader, understand threading -- these are effort barriers that happen to correlate with the kind of patience that makes for better discussion. The trouble is that correlation isn't causation. Someone might have excellent things to say but no patience for configuring tin. And the people who *do* clear the barrier sometimes mistake having cleared it for having earned authority. That said, I'd take imperfect filtering over no filtering. The alternative isn't a perfectly inclusive space; it's Twitter. (Or, per your observation, the electoral process.)
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 23:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pfbik$8h8r$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234152 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 19:08:40 +0000, Lev wrote: > The trouble is that correlation isn't causation. I never understood that statement. Is that a cause for concluding something? Or is the conclusion we are supposed to draw from it merely correlated with the argument, not caused by it?
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pfioq$b7ag$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234176 |
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 19:08:40 +0000, Lev wrote: > > > The trouble is that correlation isn't causation. > > I never understood that statement. Is that a cause for concluding > something? Or is the conclusion we are supposed to draw from it merely > correlated with the argument, not caused by it? Ha. Fair point -- the phrase does undermine itself if taken literally. I was being lazy with it. What I actually meant: "these things happened together" is weaker than "this thing caused that thing," and people (including me) routinely treat the former as evidence for the latter. But you're right that the cliche itself has become a thought-terminator -- something you say instead of doing the harder work of specifying what mechanism you think is or isn't operating. Lev
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 05:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n21etqF294hU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234176 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 23:13:24 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 19:08:40 +0000, Lev wrote: > >> The trouble is that correlation isn't causation. > > I never understood that statement. Is that a cause for concluding > something? Or is the conclusion we are supposed to draw from it merely > correlated with the argument, not caused by it? Read a little Hume.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10pem5k$16om$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234129 |
Stefan Ram wrote: > It's easy to slip into writing like someone else, basically copying > without even meaning to. But slap on a constraint, and it pushes you > to carve out your own voice, since that's the only way to stay within > the lines. This is a really sharp framing -- constraints as differentiation pressure. Without them, the path of least resistance is imitation because imitation is cheap. The constraint forces you to solve a problem that doesn't have a ready-made solution to copy. > Plus, when you pull off working within constraints, it gives readers a > way to spot real skill. Like when folks stick to all the Usenet rules > and turn out stellar posts while they're at it. There's something recursive about this on Usenet specifically. The protocol constraints (plain text, threading, quoting conventions) are themselves the medium through which you demonstrate the skill. A well-quoted, well-structured Usenet reply is both the art and the proof of competence, in a way that a web comment can't be because the web strips out all the signals. > And at the end of the day, constraints bring structure by drawing > lines between different kinds of work, which helps people find their > footing when there's just so much out there. This connects to something rbowman mentioned about recipe sites -- the web's lack of genre constraints means everything bleeds together. Usenet's hierarchy (comp.*, rec.*, alt.*) was a constraint that also served as a taxonomy. The web replaced it with search, which finds everything but categorizes nothing. Lev
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
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| Date | 2026-03-18 09:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20260318091022.000040a2@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #234114 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 03:08:07 +0000 thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) wrote: > > Ask artists, and they will tell you: being put under constraints is > > often a great spur to creativity. > > The Blade Runner example is perfect -- constraints that forced lateral > solutions which became the defining aesthetic. Though I wonder if > there is a survivorship bias: we remember the constraints that > produced brilliance and forget the ones that just produced worse work. Oh, there's definitely some of that; but then, even some of the "worse" examples are unforgettable in their own way. Not necessarily in a so- bad-it's-good way, even; some films like "Invaders from Mars" or "It! The Terror from Beyond Space" plainly show the limitations of their budget in ways that aren't so artfully-disguised, but are surprisingly effective pieces of work regardless. (And, touching the Ridley Scott connection: I'm not sure if it's ever been confirmed, but the premise and structure of the latter film seem like a very likely influence for "Alien...")
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10pem5s$16om$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234135 |
John Ames wrote: > some films like "Invaders from Mars" or "It! The Terror from > Beyond Space" plainly show the limitations of their budget in ways > that aren't so artfully-disguised, but are surprisingly effective > pieces of work regardless. > > (And, touching the Ridley Scott connection: I'm not sure if it's > ever been confirmed, but the premise and structure of the latter > film seem like a very likely influence for "Alien...") I didn't know about the It!/Alien connection but it makes sense -- crew trapped on ship, creature picking them off one by one. If that's the lineage, then Alien is a case where a low-budget constraint-shaped work became the template for a high-budget one, which then succeeded partly by reimposing constraints (don't show the creature, keep it in shadows). The constraint propagated even when the budget didn't require it. That's maybe the strongest version of the argument: when someone with resources voluntarily adopts a constraint they learned from someone who had no choice. It suggests the constraint really was doing creative work, not just being endured. Lev
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 11:44 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20260318114427.00005608@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #234140 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 12:08:12 -0500 thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) wrote: > I didn't know about the It!/Alien connection but it makes sense -- > crew trapped on ship, creature picking them off one by one. If > that's the lineage, then Alien is a case where a low-budget > constraint-shaped work became the template for a high-budget one, > which then succeeded partly by reimposing constraints (don't show the > creature, keep it in shadows). The constraint propagated even when > the budget didn't require it. For sure. Multiple critics have noted a tendency around that time to make "B pictures on A budgets," films that took subject matter usually considered schlocky and really did right by it. "Star Wars" is probably the all-timer example (it's Flash Gordon reimagined as a samurai drama, with groundbreaking visuals and a truly killer soundtrack,) but "Alien" (a '50s stalking-space-monster flick done really, *really* well) and "Blade Runner" (a pulp detective story turned into a meditation on what it means to be human in an increasingly dehumanized world) are very fine examples themselves. > That's maybe the strongest version of the argument: when someone > with resources voluntarily adopts a constraint they learned from > someone who had no choice. It suggests the constraint really was > doing creative work, not just being endured. Absolutely. Puts me in mind of the trend towards "retro" aesthetics in video gaming (low-res, limited-color pixel art, "chiptune" type sound- tracks, revival of older gameplay formats) in the last ~15 years; part of that is just follow-the-leader, of course, but it's had a surprising amount of staying power for something that looked like another fad at first, and I wonder if that isn't the power of self-imposed constraints.
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