Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #223255

Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022

From	Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022
Date	2022-12-24 14:03 -1000
Organization	Wheeler&Wheeler
Message-ID	<878riwnycx.fsf@localhost> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <t02ngl$b8b$1@news.misty.com> <1585529182.668284324.850327.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> <871qopg8qi.fsf@localhost> <xzupL.94200$9sn9.54423@fx17.iad> <2029650566.693597757.398055.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>

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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> On the other tentacle, comparing one IBM processor to another makes the
> most sense for current customers looking to upgrade. “Oh, this new one is
> twice as fast as what we have now.” MIPS would be a lot less meaningful to
> this group.

the previous story about no. of channels and i/o throughput for 3090
... was to have sufficient concurrent work load to keep cpu busy (in
aggregate) ... i/o throughput power matching cpu throughput power.

the story this was the justification of making all 370s, virtual memory
machines ... customer asked me a decade ago to track down the decision;
found somebody that reported to the executive. Bascially (OS/360) MVT
storage management was so bad that region sizes had to be usually four
times larger than actually used ... as a result it restricted number of
concurrently executing regions for typical 1mbyte 370/165 to four
... insufficient to keep processor adequately justified and busy.

Going to 16mbyte virtual memory, allowed increasing number of
concurrently executing regions by four times ... with little or no
paging. Original VS2 was SVS ... very similar to running MVT in a CP67
16mbyte virtual machine. The biggest code change was for channel program
copies with virtual addresses translated to real ... OS/360 running in
CP67 virtual machines had I/O channel programs with virtual addresses
and CP67 "CCWTRANS" made copies of the virtual machine channel programs
where the virtual addresses replaced with real addresses.

OS/360 had libraries executed by application programs, generating I/O
channel programs and then invoking (kernel SVC0) EXCP to invoke the
channel program. In VS2/SVS (and later MVS), EXCP had same problem (as
CP67) making I/O channel program copy, replacing virtual addresses with
real addresses. The initial VS2 implementation borrowed CP67 CCWTRANS
and crafted it into EXCP.

old archived post from decade ago with pieces of the email exchange
about MVT (bad) storage management was motivation for making all 370s,
virtual memory machines.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#73

other trivia is seen in EC12->z13 numbers (from upthread post), max
configurations, had EC12/75BIPS going to z13/100BIPS ... but EC12 had
101 743MIPS processors while z13 had 140 710MIPS processors (1/3rd
increase in aggregate MIPS by having 40% increase in number of
processors with slightly lower MIPS).

one of my other comparisons was communication group fiercely fighting
off client/server and distributed computing, also trying to block
release of mainframe TCP/IP support ... when they lost, somewhat because
of univ. demand ... the communication group changed their tactic and
said that since they had corporate strategic responsibility for
everything that crossed datacenter walls, it had to be shipped through
them. What shipped, used nearly a while 3090 processor getting
44kbytes/sec aggregate throughput. I then did the changes for RFC1044
and in some tuning tests at Cray Research between IBM 4341 (about
1+mips) and cray, got sustained channel I/O throughput (about 500 times
improvement in bytes moved per instruction executed).

A few years later, the communication group hired silicon valley
contractor to implement TCP/IP directly in VTAM. What he demo'ed had TCP
running much faster than (SNA) LU6.2. He was then told that everybody
"knows" thaa a "proper" TCP/IP implementation is much slower than LU6.2
... and they would only be paying for a "proper" implementation.

In that time-frame there was analysis that had (mainframe) pathlength
for VTAM/LU6.2 at 160K instructions and 15 buffer copies ... while UNIX
TCP/IP pathlength was 5K instructions and 5 buffer copies. Other
history about IBM (mainframe) downfall
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ibm-downfall-lynn-wheeler/
and
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/john-boyd-ibm-wild-ducks-lynn-wheeler/

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Thread

TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-02 21:32 +0000
  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 14:30 +0000
    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 16:38 +0000
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 17:13 +0000
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:33 -0500
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 21:55 +0000
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-04 13:23 -0800
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:29 +0100
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-06 19:40 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:49 -0600
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-23 10:34 -1000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-12-23 21:42 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-24 11:54 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-24 11:17 -0600
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-24 18:01 -0600
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-25 11:24 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-25 09:12 -1000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-30 17:06 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 19:09 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-30 16:11 -0600
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2022-12-30 20:22 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-30 16:12 -0600
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 23:44 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-23 12:18 -1000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-24 03:43 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 07:55 -1000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-24 11:08 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-12-24 18:36 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-24 21:09 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 14:03 -1000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 14:46 -1000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-06 11:17 -0800
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:53 +0100
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-07 22:02 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:55 -0600
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-23 12:27 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-07 03:11 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2022-12-30 13:57 -0800
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2022-12-30 22:11 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 23:44 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2022-12-30 23:56 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2022-12-31 09:02 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-12-30 20:44 -0500
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-30 20:08 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2022-12-31 00:25 -0800
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-12-31 13:39 +0100
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 00:46 +0000
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-04 18:49 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2022-03-04 14:55 -0600
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-04 22:14 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 22:17 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2022-03-06 04:35 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-06 05:40 +0000
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:46 -0500
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:21 +0100
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:42 +0100
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 15:07 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:51 +0100
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:07 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-07 11:47 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:19 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-08 10:08 +0100
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-08 19:47 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-09 01:03 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:18 +0100
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:37 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 14:53 -0500
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 20:43 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-07 19:52 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:18 -0500
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:33 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:58 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 00:06 +0100
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 15:22 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 11:17 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-08 21:09 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 21:33 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:24 +0100
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:24 -0500
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 21:06 +0000
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:47 -0500
    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 10:48 -0600
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:03 +0000
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 19:52 -0600
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2022-03-08 04:13 +0000
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:32 +0100

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