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combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry?

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  combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-05-25 10:51 +0100
    Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-05-25 15:56 +0100
    Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-25 11:30 -0400
      Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-06-01 13:32 +0100
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-06-01 14:03 -0400
    Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? James <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-25 15:36 +0000
      Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-06-01 12:58 +0100
    Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-25 21:11 +0200
      Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? dillinger <dillinger@invalid.not> - 2025-05-25 23:10 +0200
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:28 +0200
      Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> - 2025-05-26 17:50 +1200
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:34 +0200
      Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-06-01 13:40 +0100
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-06-01 14:05 +0100
          Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-06-03 13:38 +0100
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-06-01 15:36 -0400
          Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-06-03 13:50 +0100
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-06-04 15:23 +0200
    Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-05-25 20:01 -0500
      Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:37 +0200
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2025-05-27 16:01 +1000
        Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-06-04 15:18 +0200
    Re: combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry? "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2025-05-26 16:54 +0200

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#16747 — combine newsgroups from two or more servers? And expiry?

(138.0.2)
I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate 
- any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with 
articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.

Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at 
least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?

Apologies if the is a newbie question; last time I used Thunderbird was 
I think in single-digit version numbers (the same may have been the case 
then, but I would have only been using one news server).

And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts - 
unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear 
<period> after downloading, whether read or not? (Former Turnpike user, 
which is where I get the term "expiry" - it may be called something 
else, if it exists. I could in TP set a different expiry per newsgroup - 
I had 3 days for most. [Oh, and TP merged across 'groups no problem; it 
showed available servers for each 'group, and you could select/switch 
server (per 'group) any time, and the "read" state of posts didn't 
change (though you occasionally got repeat downloads of a few posts).]
-- 
J. P. Gilliver

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#16753

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate 
> - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with 
> articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
> 
> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set
Nothing within TB itself, you could use Leafnode as a proxy between TB 
and multiple news servers ... runs on linux.

<https://www.leafnode.org>

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#16754

On Sun, 5/25/2025 5:51 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> (138.0.2)
> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
> 
> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
> 
> Apologies if the is a newbie question; last time I used Thunderbird was I think in single-digit version numbers (the same may have been the case then, but I would have only been using one news server).
> 
> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts - unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear <period> after downloading, whether read or not? (Former Turnpike user, which is where I get the term "expiry" - it may be called something else, if it exists. I could in TP set a different expiry per newsgroup - I had 3 days for most. [Oh, and TP merged across 'groups no problem; it showed available servers for each 'group, and you could select/switch server (per 'group) any time, and the "read" state of posts didn't change (though you occasionally got repeat downloads of a few posts).]

Available groups:

server 1      # Another server
   group A
   group B
   group C
server 2      # Lowest latency, or highest availability server
   group A
   group B

What I subscribe to:

server 1      # Another server
   group C
server 2      # Lowest latency, or highest availability server
   group A
   group B

You don't have to subscribe to exactly the same groups
at exactly the same time. You can pick a primary server
and subscribe to your interests, pick a secondary server
for some other purpose.

And that pattern holds in practice. Right now, one server
has maybe a dozen groups subscribed, but my activity is in
only one group, a group which has been placed at the
top of the list.

Most of the time, I'm on server 2, some of the time
on server 1.

One server (Server 3) is read-only and it is unfiltered, and that
one represents an "archive capability". Since you can't
post there, it's just for looking stuff up, or studying
spam patterns (the spamming event that caused google groups
to disconnect from USENET). It has an expiry set, so there are
only so many days on it. Whereas a commercial server can have
twelve years of posts.

During the spam event, Server2 was equipped with SpamAssassin, and
this resulted in a clean feed for purpose. Server3 does not
have that filter. In response to these spamming events, Server3
went read-only. As the operator could not be bothered making a
huge programmatic response to what was going on.

In Thunderbird, if you "Compact" a group, the headers of expired
messages can be removed. Similarly, if you "Offline Sync" and
collect the messages from the server, on your own machine, the
"Offline Sync" operation removes expired headers. Expired
headers can be fed into Howard Knight, as a means of reading
items that may have scrolled off the other servers.

http://al.howardknight.net/

My expired headers for the Windows 7 group, go from 2010 to 2025, as
an example. Only messages from 2024-2025 can actually be read off
the average free server. The rest would use HowardKnight, if a need
arose to go back that far. HowardKnight used to include lookup
access to Google Groups via some API, but that might no longer
be all that useful, that backup capability. Whatever other retention
HK taps into, is unclear. HowardKnight is sorta like a news server,
but is for reference purposes rather than scrolling. And that's the
only purpose of me stopping Compaction and keeping Expired Headers,
is to feed them to HK on an as-needed basis. HK uses truncation on
messages, to stop the movie crowd from turning it into a movie server,
so the messages there are truncated, for long posts. That was done
instead of writing a filter that recognizes all attempts to exploit
USENET.

   Paul

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#16800

On 25/05/2025 16:30, Paul wrote:
> On Sun, 5/25/2025 5:51 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> (138.0.2)
[]
>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
[]
> You don't have to subscribe to exactly the same groups
> at exactly the same time. You can pick a primary server
> and subscribe to your interests, pick a secondary server
> for some other purpose.

So, in short, you're saying there _isn't_ a function to merge the same 
'group when taken from more than one server. But on thinking about it, I 
am asking myself why I might be doing so! Though I can think of one 
reason: a server might go down and I still want to see posts in that 
'group even if from a less reliable server. (The same applies if I'm not 
on my home connection; my provider's server only works when I am on 
their connection. Though as I think they [PlusNet] are turning off their 
server, that's academic!)[]
> In Thunderbird, if you "Compact" a group, the headers of expired
> messages can be removed. Similarly, if you "Offline Sync" and
> collect the messages from the server, on your own machine, the
> "Offline Sync" operation removes expired headers. Expired
> headers can be fed into Howard Knight, as a means of reading
> items that may have scrolled off the other servers.

I'm still a little shaky on the concept of "expired" posts. Does TB by 
default only download headers, not bodies, until you actually read them? 
I could then understand what "expired" might mean - where the bodies 
(and maybe headers too?) are no longer available from the server(s). If 
that _is_ the case, is there a way to change the default, so that bodies 
as well as headers are downloaded on connection?>
> http://al.howardknight.net/

Thanks for that.>
> My expired headers for the Windows 7 group, go from 2010 to 2025, as
> an example. Only messages from 2024-2025 can actually be read off
> the average free server. The rest would use HowardKnight, if a need
> arose to go back that far. HowardKnight used to include lookup
> access to Google Groups via some API, but that might no longer
> be all that useful, that backup capability. Whatever other retention
> HK taps into, is unclear. HowardKnight is sorta like a news server,
> but is for reference purposes rather than scrolling. And that's the
> only purpose of me stopping Compaction and keeping Expired Headers,
> is to feed them to HK on an as-needed basis. HK uses truncation on
> messages, to stop the movie crowd from turning it into a movie server,
> so the messages there are truncated, for long posts. That was done
> instead of writing a filter that recognizes all attempts to exploit
> USENET.
[]
Under Turnpike, I was used to: downloading both headers and bodies to 
local storage (you _could_ opt, on a per-'group basis, to download 
headers only if you wished - I rarely used that); setting a (per-'group) 
exoiry that removed (both headers and bodies) x days after I'd 
downloaded them, whether I'd read them or not; and being able to mark 
posts as "keep", which prevented them being removed.

The result was that, when I looked at a newsgroup, I saw only the posts 
I had downloaded in the last x days, plus the ones I'd marked as keep.

Can I make TB work like that?

(I had wondered what the point of keeping headers forever, beyond the 
point where their bodies were available from the servers, was - but your 
explanation of HowardKnight sort of does explain it. Having to _not_ 
compact - thus having hundreds or whatever of headers to wade through - 
seems less useful than marking as keep posts that I want to keep and 
having the rest disappear after x days. But there _may_ be other 
advantages to the TB default way.)

Thanks for your patience with a (TB) newbie!-- (Another comment 
below…)That's another thing: I've noticed, when I'm posting followups, 
that the quoted text often seems to have a huge number of blank lines on 
the end, before my .sig appears. I had wondered if it was something TB 
was inserting, but the number seems to vary, so I don't think it is. Any 
idea what gives?--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

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#16803

On Sun, 6/1/2025 8:32 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> On 25/05/2025 16:30, Paul wrote:
>> On Sun, 5/25/2025 5:51 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> (138.0.2)
> []
>>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
> []
>> You don't have to subscribe to exactly the same groups
>> at exactly the same time. You can pick a primary server
>> and subscribe to your interests, pick a secondary server
>> for some other purpose.
> 
> So, in short, you're saying there _isn't_ a function to merge the same 'group when taken from more than one server. But on thinking about it, I am asking myself why I might be doing so! Though I can think of one reason: a server might go down and I still want to see posts in that 'group even if from a less reliable server. (The same applies if I'm not on my home connection; my provider's server only works when I am on their connection. Though as I think they [PlusNet] are turning off their server, that's academic!)[]
>> In Thunderbird, if you "Compact" a group, the headers of expired
>> messages can be removed. Similarly, if you "Offline Sync" and
>> collect the messages from the server, on your own machine, the
>> "Offline Sync" operation removes expired headers. Expired
>> headers can be fed into Howard Knight, as a means of reading
>> items that may have scrolled off the other servers.
> 
> I'm still a little shaky on the concept of "expired" posts. Does TB by default only download headers, not bodies, until you actually read them? I could then understand what "expired" might mean - where the bodies (and maybe headers too?) are no longer available from the server(s). If that _is_ the case, is there a way to change the default, so that bodies as well as headers are downloaded on connection?>
>> http://al.howardknight.net/
> 
> Thanks for that.>
>> My expired headers for the Windows 7 group, go from 2010 to 2025, as
>> an example. Only messages from 2024-2025 can actually be read off
>> the average free server. The rest would use HowardKnight, if a need
>> arose to go back that far. HowardKnight used to include lookup
>> access to Google Groups via some API, but that might no longer
>> be all that useful, that backup capability. Whatever other retention
>> HK taps into, is unclear. HowardKnight is sorta like a news server,
>> but is for reference purposes rather than scrolling. And that's the
>> only purpose of me stopping Compaction and keeping Expired Headers,
>> is to feed them to HK on an as-needed basis. HK uses truncation on
>> messages, to stop the movie crowd from turning it into a movie server,
>> so the messages there are truncated, for long posts. That was done
>> instead of writing a filter that recognizes all attempts to exploit
>> USENET.
> []
> Under Turnpike, I was used to: downloading both headers and bodies to local storage (you _could_ opt, on a per-'group basis, to download headers only if you wished - I rarely used that); setting a (per-'group) exoiry that removed (both headers and bodies) x days after I'd downloaded them, whether I'd read them or not; and being able to mark posts as "keep", which prevented them being removed.
> 
> The result was that, when I looked at a newsgroup, I saw only the posts I had downloaded in the last x days, plus the ones I'd marked as keep.
> 
> Can I make TB work like that?
> 
> (I had wondered what the point of keeping headers forever, beyond the point where their bodies were available from the servers, was - but your explanation of HowardKnight sort of does explain it. Having to _not_ compact - thus having hundreds or whatever of headers to wade through - seems less useful than marking as keep posts that I want to keep and having the rest disappear after x days. But there _may_ be other advantages to the TB default way.)
> 
> Thanks for your patience with a (TB) newbie!-- (Another comment below…)That's another thing: I've noticed, when I'm posting followups, that the quoted text often seems to have a huge number of blank lines on the end, before my .sig appears. I had wondered if it was something TB was inserting, but the number seems to vary, so I don't think it is. Any idea what gives?--
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
> 
> 

You can use "Offline Sync" to select newsgroups for Full Message
download. The reason this would not normally be used, is you
get about two Full Messages per second from the main spool while
using "Offline Sync". It can take hours to dump a large
event horizon in a group on a server.

The normal mode of operation, is downloading headers, and these
come from the "Overview Database". The server can handle 100 per second
of these. That's how we quickly review what a server has to offer
in terms of new posts. XOver.

   Paul

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#16755

On 25/05/2025 10:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts - 
> unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear 
> <period> after downloading, whether read or not? (Former Turnpike user, 
> which is where I get the term "expiry" - it may be called something 
> else, if it exists. I could in TP set a different expiry per newsgroup - 
> I had 3 days for most. [Oh, and TP merged across 'groups no problem; it 
> showed available servers for each 'group, and you could select/switch 
> server (per 'group) any time, and the "read" state of posts didn't 
> change (though you occasionally got repeat downloads of a few posts).]


See this image to delete messages more than 30 days.

<https://i.imgur.com/oDq9k2f.png>

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#16799

On 25/05/2025 16:36, James wrote:
> On 25/05/2025 10:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts -
>> unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear
>> <period> after downloading, whether read or not? (Former Turnpike user,
[]
> See this image to delete messages more than 30 days.
> 
> <https://i.imgur.com/oDq9k2f.png>
> 
Thanks for that. Is there a way of limiting that to a given newsgroup, 
or server, or - in particular - making it _not_ apply to emails, only 
news? And can posts be tagged for retention?

-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

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#16756

On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> (138.0.2)
> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate 
> - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with 
> articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
> 
> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at 
> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?

Yes, but not with TB alone.

In Linux, you can use an nntp proxy server using Leafnode, and then 
point TB to leafnode instead.

Leafnode can connect to several nntp servers and combine them. You get 
all the posts, though, so if one server has spam filtering and the other 
doesn't, you will get the spam.

I am not aware of a similar software in Windows. You can install it in a 
Linux server for your entire LAN, though.

> 
> Apologies if the is a newbie question; last time I used Thunderbird was 
> I think in single-digit version numbers (the same may have been the case 
> then, but I would have only been using one news server).
> 
> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts - 
> unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear 
> <period> after downloading, whether read or not?

Yes, with a filter. Also in age settings. James posted the exact place.

  (Former Turnpike user,
> which is where I get the term "expiry" - it may be called something 
> else, if it exists. I could in TP set a different expiry per newsgroup - 
> I had 3 days for most. [Oh, and TP merged across 'groups no problem; it 
> showed available servers for each 'group, and you could select/switch 
> server (per 'group) any time, and the "read" state of posts didn't 
> change (though you occasionally got repeat downloads of a few posts).]

If you set a expiry age of 3 days, you will have problems.

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.

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#16757

On 5/25/25 21:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> (138.0.2)
>> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain
>> separate - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity,
>> with articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
>>
>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at
>> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
> 
> Yes, but not with TB alone.
> 
> In Linux, you can use an nntp proxy server using Leafnode, and then
> point TB to leafnode instead.
> 
> Leafnode can connect to several nntp servers and combine them. You get
> all the posts, though, so if one server has spam filtering and the other
> doesn't, you will get the spam.
> 
> I am not aware of a similar software in Windows. You can install it in a
> Linux server for your entire LAN, though.
> 
You can install leafnode on WSL, I have it running on Ubuntu on Win 10.
It's tricky, but it can be done, and you'll learn a lot about WSL :)>>
>> Apologies if the is a newbie question; last time I used Thunderbird
>> was I think in single-digit version numbers (the same may have been
>> the case then, but I would have only been using one news server).
>>
>> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts -
>> unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear
>> <period> after downloading, whether read or not?
> 
> Yes, with a filter. Also in age settings. James posted the exact place.
> 
>  (Former Turnpike user,
>> which is where I get the term "expiry" - it may be called something
>> else, if it exists. I could in TP set a different expiry per newsgroup
>> - I had 3 days for most. [Oh, and TP merged across 'groups no problem;
>> it showed available servers for each 'group, and you could select/
>> switch server (per 'group) any time, and the "read" state of posts
>> didn't change (though you occasionally got repeat downloads of a few
>> posts).]
> 
> If you set a expiry age of 3 days, you will have problems.
> 

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#16762

On 2025-05-25 23:10, dillinger wrote:
> On 5/25/25 21:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> (138.0.2)
>>> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain
>>> separate - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity,
>>> with articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
>>>
>>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at
>>> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
>>
>> Yes, but not with TB alone.
>>
>> In Linux, you can use an nntp proxy server using Leafnode, and then
>> point TB to leafnode instead.
>>
>> Leafnode can connect to several nntp servers and combine them. You get
>> all the posts, though, so if one server has spam filtering and the other
>> doesn't, you will get the spam.
>>
>> I am not aware of a similar software in Windows. You can install it in a
>> Linux server for your entire LAN, though.
>>
> You can install leafnode on WSL, I have it running on Ubuntu on Win 10.
> It's tricky, but it can be done, and you'll learn a lot about WSL :)>>

I thought it might be possible, but I have no experience with WSL. Good 
to know :-)

...

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.

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#16760

On Sun, 25 May 2025 21:11:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> (138.0.2)
>> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate 
>> - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with 
>> articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
>> 
>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at 
>> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
> 
> Yes, but not with TB alone.
> 
> In Linux, you can use an nntp proxy server using Leafnode, and then 
> point TB to leafnode instead.
> 
> Leafnode can connect to several nntp servers and combine them. You get 
> all the posts, though, so if one server has spam filtering and the other 
> doesn't, you will get the spam.
> 
> I am not aware of a similar software in Windows. You can install it in a 
> Linux server for your entire LAN, though.


FWIW there used to be a similar software in Windows to  newsgroups from 
two or more servers, but its site is now offline.  You can still find 
its site on the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine.

<https://web.archive.org/web/20091025054832/http://newsplex.webstylists.com/>


-- 
Kind regards
Ralph Fox
🦊️

It's not lost that comes at last.

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#16763

On 2025-05-26 07:50, Ralph Fox wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2025 21:11:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>
>>> (138.0.2)
>>> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate
>>> - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with
>>> articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
>>>
>>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at
>>> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
>>
>> Yes, but not with TB alone.
>>
>> In Linux, you can use an nntp proxy server using Leafnode, and then
>> point TB to leafnode instead.
>>
>> Leafnode can connect to several nntp servers and combine them. You get
>> all the posts, though, so if one server has spam filtering and the other
>> doesn't, you will get the spam.
>>
>> I am not aware of a similar software in Windows. You can install it in a
>> Linux server for your entire LAN, though.
> 
> 
> FWIW there used to be a similar software in Windows to  newsgroups from
> two or more servers, but its site is now offline.  You can still find
> its site on the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine.
> 
> <https://web.archive.org/web/20091025054832/http://newsplex.webstylists.com/>

The thing is, Leafnode was designed to be used with modem access to 
internet. I mean, connect the phone, and possibly automatically the 
software would download all new posts in subscribed areas, upload 
answers, and then the modem could disconnect. The alternative was to 
have TB connected to internet for hours while you read and wrote posts, 
which could cost important money, depending on the country.

There is no need of modems today, internet access can be continuous and 
not paid per minute. So the need to use Leafnode or similar is gone. 
Leafnode has survived, there is a chap that maintains a new version. 
Alternatives were not so lucky, it seems.

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.

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#16801

On 25/05/2025 20:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> (138.0.2)
>> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain 
[]
>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at 
>> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
> 
> Yes, but not with TB alone.
> 
> In Linux, you can use an nntp proxy server using Leafnode, and then 
> point TB to leafnode instead.

Thanks to all those who've suggested I use leafnode. I think the problem 
has receded as one of the servers will be (has been I think) turned off.

There was/is also the question of whether it would work anyway, because 
of the difference between MIDs and (local to server) article numbers.[]
>> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts - 
>> unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear 
>> <period> after downloading, whether read or not?
[]
> If you set a expiry age of 3 days, you will have problems.
> 
What, exactly? (Or are you thinking of posts I want to keep and there's 
no way of marking posts _not_ to expire?)

-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

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#16802

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> the problem has receded as one of the servers will be (has been I think) 
> turned off.

I suspect it needs a shilling in the meter, and if Bob notices, it might 
come back for a while before finally going away ...

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#16827

On 01/06/2025 14:05, Andy Burns wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> 
>> the problem has receded as one of the servers will be (has been I 
>> think) turned off.
> 
> I suspect it needs a shilling in the meter, and if Bob notices, it might 
> come back for a while before finally going away ...
> 
No, they've definitely said they're turning it off (1 June, maybe?); 
they suggested movement to another server, such as E-S. I think it 
malfunctioned for a few days before that anyway - it didn't seem to 
download anything, but that could have coincided with my getting to know 
the new Thunderbird.

Agreed, Bob is gold ... we'll miss him when he goes into well-deserved 
retirement; I imagine he's a thorn in PN's side )-:.
-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


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#16804

On Sun, 6/1/2025 8:40 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> On 25/05/2025 20:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> (138.0.2)
>>> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain 
> []
>>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
>>
>> Yes, but not with TB alone.
>>
>> In Linux, you can use an nntp proxy server using Leafnode, and then point TB to leafnode instead.
> 
> Thanks to all those who've suggested I use leafnode. I think the problem has receded as one of the servers will be (has been I think) turned off.
> 
> There was/is also the question of whether it would work anyway, because of the difference between MIDs and (local to server) article numbers.[]
>>> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts - unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear <period> after downloading, whether read or not?
> []
>> If you set a expiry age of 3 days, you will have problems.
>>
> What, exactly? (Or are you thinking of posts I want to keep and there's no way of marking posts _not_ to expire?)
> 

The MID is stamped, at the point where the message was posted.

Each server has a lot of peer links. E-S might have fifty of them.
Via the links, messages are exchanged, until each server has
an exact copy of that particular MID message. It's not a full mesh.
It's chaotic. There could be islands of USENET servers, only
one peer link between islands... and it still works to flood
fill the network.

A LeafNode software, could use some of the code regular servers
use, to ensure the "spool" only has one copy of a message.

And you would not sync with all 30,000 groups on both servers,
because the vast majority of those groups, you would never
be reading them. If you had a dozen interest groups, you might
LeafNode those, and then the bandwidth waste isn't quite as bad.

*******

The Article Numbers, have a High Water Mark and a Low Water Mark.
(Those two quantities are carried in control packets between
your client and the NNTP server.)  The difference between the
two is the event horizon (three days in the following example).

If you set a three day expiry, the posts might look like this
(no, I never learned to count).

   Tuesday     Message 1223
   Wednesday   Message 1224
   Thursday    Message 1225
   Friday      Message 1226

When Saturday arrives, the Tuesday message "scroll off the server".
The body is removed from the spool. The header is removed from
the XOver database. If a single message comes in on Saturday,
it might be assigned a (local) article number of 1227.

If you "keep expired headers" as I do (by not compacting in Thunderbird),
then I still have a copy of header 1220, 1221, 1222, and the
newly expired 1223 (whose body is no longer on the server). If
I click the expired 1220 link, I don't get to read the message,
but if I copy the error message MID to the Howard web page,
I can look up the body and read it. Thunderbird, when it pulls a body,
if the body is BASE64 encoded, Thunderbird decodes it and
displays the real textual content underneath. if I pull a
message with a BASE64 body from Howard, it remains in BASE64
format, and needs to be decoded manually when I get it. The
ThaiSpam attack messages, had a high percentage of BASE64 encoding
used (to hide a variety of foreign languages and characters).

Thunderbird is capable of mistakenly encoding bodies in
BASE64 and submitting them. Some other participants in
the newsgroups are royally pissed when they receive one
of those. That's because some older or more obscure USENET
clients, don't automatically handle the BASE64 as they might :-)
You would normally expect, with the accompanying MIME header
lines to mark this content, it would all be automated on
the older clients.

If I was using XVNews from around 1990, that wouldn't
process MIME and I'd be looking at raw BASE64.

XVNews (for usage on Sun Microsystems computers), didn't
even support threading. It was *just awful* to follow
a discussion on there :-/ we also walked uphill both
going to school and coming back, in those days. You had
to compile your client from source, as well as set a
manifest constant in the source before compiling. If
the client ran out of space, you recompiled it (it being
too simple to have made the manifest constant just be a
setting).

All I'm saying, is "Welcome to Thunderbird" o.O
Think of the "fun" you will be missing. No BASE64
to decode. Threaded discussions. Etc.

   Paul

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#16828

On 01/06/2025 20:36, Paul wrote:
> On Sun, 6/1/2025 8:40 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> On 25/05/2025 20:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
[]
>>>> And: is there any way of setting an "expiry" period, such that posts - unless manually starred (or tagged or something similar) - disappear <period> after downloading, whether read or not?
>> []
>>> If you set a expiry age of 3 days, you will have problems.
>>>
>> What, exactly? (Or are you thinking of posts I want to keep and there's no way of marking posts _not_ to expire?)
[]
Long explanation (which I understood, through a glass darkly) snipped; 
thanks. If I understood what you were saying, it was that TB uses 
something in the received headers when expiring; TP does it based 
entirely on when _it_ downloaded the posts (_how_ it does that, I have 
no idea - maybe it adds its own header to each post). I can see that, if 
TB only uses the as-downloaded headers, setting a short expiry date 
could cause problems.>
> If you "keep expired headers" as I do (by not compacting in Thunderbird),

Ah - I've just discovered the "star" function in TB, and had assumed 
(since there's a setting in retentions to not delete starred messages) 
it was similar to TP's "keep" function; am I still in danger of losing 
starred if I compact? (Though I haven't found the "compact" setting 
again, though I think I saw it once.) I'm not sure about the difference 
between compact and retention - I've still got a lot to learn!
[]
> All I'm saying, is "Welcome to Thunderbird" o.O
> Think of the "fun" you will be missing. No BASE64
> to decode. Threaded discussions. Etc.

(-:>
>     Paul


-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf


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#16852

On 2025-06-01 14:40, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> On 25/05/2025 20:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2025-05-25 11:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:


>> If you set a expiry age of 3 days, you will have problems.
>>
> What, exactly? (Or are you thinking of posts I want to keep and there's 
> no way of marking posts _not_ to expire?)

Well, in a big thread older than 3 days, newer posts will not have the 
parent, and the thread  breaks in several orphaned threads.

Also, if you click on an old post, thunderbird will pop a message saying 
that some index is missing or something, and on clicking on it, it will 
offer to cleanup stale messages. You will hit into this nuisance too 
often to be a bother.

Maybe keeping headers would avoid this.

Then of course in a long thread people will refer to what somebody said 
a week ago. Or a year ago.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#16759

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate 
> - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with 
> articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
> 
> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at 
> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?

Different NNTP servers will have different article numbers for the same
article.  When an article is received, that NNTP will index it in its
own articles and overview databases.  NNTP servers do not synchronize on
the article numbers they assign.  They are independent of each other.
The Message-ID (MID) header will be the same when an article gets peered
to other NNTP servers, but the article numbers at an NNTP server are
unique to each NNTP server.  So, an article you retrieve via an article
number on one NNTP server will not be the same article number on a
different for the same article.

Think of like paper currency.  You and someone else might both have a
one dollar bill, but each has a different serial number.  That one is
ripped doesn't mandate the other is also ripped.  You are viewing
different articles on different servers that have the same content.

The suggestions by others to use a local leech server retrieving
articles from multiple servers has you probably matching on MIDs, and
presenting just 1 copy of the same article by MID across multiple
servers.  The local server detects the duplicate articles by MID, and
keeps only 1, so your NNTP client connecting to that local server only
finds the 1 copy.  I've not used Leafnode to know how it manages
duplicate articles having different article numbers, but with the same
MID at each server.

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#16764

On 2025-05-26 03:01, VanguardLH wrote:
> "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> 
>> I have set up (service from) two news servers, but they remain separate
>> - any newsgroup that's on both appears as a separate entity, with
>> articles/threads having different "read/not read" status.
>>
>> Is there any way to merge them, so that I only see one set - or, at
>> least, when I read a post in one, it's marked read in the other?
> 
> Different NNTP servers will have different article numbers for the same
> article.  When an article is received, that NNTP will index it in its
> own articles and overview databases.  NNTP servers do not synchronize on
> the article numbers they assign.  They are independent of each other.
> The Message-ID (MID) header will be the same when an article gets peered
> to other NNTP servers, but the article numbers at an NNTP server are
> unique to each NNTP server.  So, an article you retrieve via an article
> number on one NNTP server will not be the same article number on a
> different for the same article.

Leafnode stores them by message-id, if I remember right (I don't have it 
installed in this machine, I can't check).

> 
> Think of like paper currency.  You and someone else might both have a
> one dollar bill, but each has a different serial number.  That one is
> ripped doesn't mandate the other is also ripped.  You are viewing
> different articles on different servers that have the same content.
> 
> The suggestions by others to use a local leech server retrieving
> articles from multiple servers has you probably matching on MIDs, and
> presenting just 1 copy of the same article by MID across multiple
> servers.  The local server detects the duplicate articles by MID, and
> keeps only 1, so your NNTP client connecting to that local server only
> finds the 1 copy.  I've not used Leafnode to know how it manages
> duplicate articles having different article numbers, but with the same
> MID at each server.

Right.

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.

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