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Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header (was: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text)

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  Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header (was: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-26 18:27 -0500
    Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header (was: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> - 2021-04-27 20:02 +1200
    Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header (was: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-27 10:45 +0100
      Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-27 14:05 -0500
        Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-27 20:10 +0100
          Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-27 15:05 -0500
            Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-27 21:20 +0100
              Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-27 17:39 -0500
                Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Nobody <jock@soccer.com> - 2021-04-27 18:34 -0700
                Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-28 06:58 +0100
                  Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-28 01:59 -0500
          Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Nobody <jock@soccer.com> - 2021-04-27 15:20 -0700
        Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Miguel Tomar Nogueira <mnogueira@mail.telepac.pt> - 2021-04-28 02:50 +0000
        Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> - 2021-04-28 19:03 +1200
          Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-30 08:35 -0500
            Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> - 2021-05-01 08:55 +1200
              Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-05-01 01:07 -0500
                Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> - 2021-05-01 20:32 +1200
                  Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-05-01 15:48 -0500

#279 — Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header (was: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text)

NOTE: alt.comp.software.thunderbird was added to my Newsgroups header in
my reply to account for it missing in MB's Newsgroups header for his
cross-post.

From MB's headers in his opening post:

> Newsgroups: uk.tech.broadcast
                               ^--- alt.comp.software.thunderbird 
                                    is missing (where I saw his post)

I read MB's article in the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup, yet
I just noticed MB's Newsgroups header only has the uk.tech.broadcast
newsgroup.  I highly doubt Eternal-September, his Usenet provider, or my
Usenet provider, individual.net, have linked uk.tech.broadcast to
alt.comp.software.thunderbird for automatic cross-posting.  If he
cross-posted then both newsgroups should be listed in his Newsgroups
header.

Without cross-posting, how did MB's post to uk.tech.broadcast also get
to the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup?  Has he hacked his NNTP
client to lie in his Newsgroups header, like to hide his cross-posting?
The client composes the Newsgroups header.  Did MB somehow get his
client to not list all newsgroups he specified for cross-posting?

This is not a defect in my NNTP client (Dialog).  The Howard Knight
archived copy of his post also shows only one newsgroup in his
Newsgroups header.

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cs637el%24qq2%242%40dont-email.me%3E

I searched bugzilla.mozilla.org, but no tickets on Thunderbird listed
not all cross-posted newsgroups showing in the Newsgroups header.  Could
it be a new bug in TB 78?  That was released back on July 17, 2020, so I
figured someone would've noticed and reported the bug by now.

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#288

On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:27:21 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

> From MB's headers in his opening post:
> 
> > Newsgroups: uk.tech.broadcast
>                                ^--- alt.comp.software.thunderbird 
>                                     is missing (where I saw his post)
> 
> I read MB's article in the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup, yet
> I just noticed MB's Newsgroups header only has the uk.tech.broadcast
> newsgroup.  I highly doubt Eternal-September, his Usenet provider, or my
> Usenet provider, individual.net, have linked uk.tech.broadcast to
> alt.comp.software.thunderbird for automatic cross-posting.  If he
> cross-posted then both newsgroups should be listed in his Newsgroups
> header.
> 
> Without cross-posting, how did MB's post to uk.tech.broadcast also get
> to the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup?  Has he hacked his NNTP
> client to lie in his Newsgroups header, like to hide his cross-posting?
> The client composes the Newsgroups header.  Did MB somehow get his
> client to not list all newsgroups he specified for cross-posting?


I have not seen MB's original post with MID <s637el$qq2$2@dont-email.me> 
get to the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup.  The first post
I see in the thread in alt.comp.software.thunderbird is AB's reply 
with MID <ieknhaF479lU1@mid.individual.net>. 

I would assume AB added the cross-post in his first reply.

I do see MB's follow-up with MID <s63bmv$q9s$1@dont-email.me> in this 
newsgroup alt.comp.software.thunderbird.


> This is not a defect in my NNTP client (Dialog).  The Howard Knight
> archived copy of his post also shows only one newsgroup in his
> Newsgroups header.
> 
> http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cs637el%24qq2%242%40dont-email.me%3E


Here, I did not see alt.comp.software.thunderbird in the Newsgroups
header of <s637el$qq2$2@dont-email.me>, and I did not see the post in 
alt.comp.software.thunderbird.


> I searched bugzilla.mozilla.org, but no tickets on Thunderbird listed
> not all cross-posted newsgroups showing in the Newsgroups header.  Could
> it be a new bug in TB 78?  That was released back on July 17, 2020, so I
> figured someone would've noticed and reported the bug by now.


If Thunderbird did not put alt.comp.software.thunderbird in the 
Newsgroups header, then the news server would not put the post in 
alt.comp.software.thunderbird.

In NNTP, unlike SMTP, there is no separate 'envelope' to say where the 
post is to go.  For NNTP it _is_ the Newsgroups header which does this.


-- 
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊 

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#289

VanguardLH wrote:

> I read MB's article in the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup, yet
> I just noticed MB's Newsgroups header only has the uk.tech.broadcast
> newsgroup.  I highly doubt Eternal-September, his Usenet provider, or my
> Usenet provider, individual.net, have linked uk.tech.broadcast to
> alt.comp.software.thunderbird for automatic cross-posting.  If he
> cross-posted then both newsgroups should be listed in his Newsgroups
> header.

MB started the thread in u.t.broadcast, I added the x-post to 
a.c.s.thunderbird, but didn't set any followup

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#307 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> I read MB's article in the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup, yet
>> I just noticed MB's Newsgroups header only has the uk.tech.broadcast
>> newsgroup.  I highly doubt Eternal-September, his Usenet provider, or my
>> Usenet provider, individual.net, have linked uk.tech.broadcast to
>> alt.comp.software.thunderbird for automatic cross-posting.  If he
>> cross-posted then both newsgroups should be listed in his Newsgroups
>> header.
> 
> MB started the thread in u.t.broadcast, I added the x-post to 
> a.c.s.thunderbird, but didn't set any followup

Yes, I saw you added the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup when
you replied, but *MB's post* does not specify that newsgroup.  He only
specified the uk.tech.broadcast newsgroup, yet I read his post in the
alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup that MB did *not* specify in his
Newsgroups header.  Something strange going on when the Newsgroups
header does not match to which newsgroup an article shows up.

I don't visit the uk.tech.broadcast newsgroup, so I would never see his
post over there.  I was visiting the alt.comp.software.thunderbird
newsgroup, and that is where I saw his article.  MB's headers in his
starter post (not for your reply to MB) shows:

Newsgroups: uk.tech.broadcast

How did his post (not yours) show up in a newsgroup that is not listed
(alt.comp.software.thunderbird) in the Newsgroups header?  

So far, and because the client adds the Newsgroups header which is
separate from the GROUP and POST commands the client sends, the only way
I see MB's post could appear in newsgroups /other/ than those listed in
his Newsgroups header is that MB is using a hacked or trolling client
that lies in its Newsgroups header (and possibly other headers) to where
the client actually submitted the article.

Look at MB's article, not yours.  Only look at MB's starter/opening
post.  To where does *his* Newsgroups header say he submitted?  It
doesn't show alt.comp.software.thunderbird.

Supposedly the newgroup - the ONLY newsgroup - to where MB submitted:
  uk.tech.broadcast
Where his article showed up:
  uk.tech.broadcast
  alt.comp.software.thunderbird

If MB submitted only to the uk.tech.broadcast as his Newsgroups header
specifies, why did his post show up in alt.comp.software.thunderbird?
Something looks fishy.

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#308 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

VanguardLH wrote:

> How did his post (not yours) show up in a newsgroup that is not listed
> (alt.comp.software.thunderbird) in the Newsgroups header?

MB's original does not exist in a.c.s.thundrbird on NIN

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#316 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Path: uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
> From: Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> Newsgroups: uk.tech.broadcast,alt.comp.software.thunderbird
> Subject: Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header
> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 20:10:26 +0100
> Lines: 6
> Message-ID: <ier5t3Fbtj7U2@mid.individual.net>
> References: <s637el$qq2$2@dont-email.me> <yypfanednbw.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>  <ieq4q7F5nqoU1@mid.individual.net> <rpcrwlxdlnvn$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Trace: individual.net qcxnJkZLHRM3X98sVRQRAwvW7I11/3NUH5h5UaBNqXbgogV6kF
> Cancel-Lock: sha1:U5VJo2AoYNCcReeNiCK0IWXTk4Y=
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
>  Thunderbird/78.10.0
> In-Reply-To: <rpcrwlxdlnvn$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
> Content-Language: en-GB
> Xref: uni-berlin.de uk.tech.broadcast:160814 alt.comp.software.thunderbird:319
> 
> VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> How did his post (not yours) show up in a newsgroup that is not listed
>> (alt.comp.software.thunderbird) in the Newsgroups header?
> 
> MB's original does not exist in a.c.s.thundrbird on NIN

The NNTP server at which I subscribe to alt.comp.software.thunderbird is
NIN (news.individual.net).  While I also have accounts defined in my
client to Eternal-September (and recently to Mozilla), *all* newsgroups
to which I subscribe are hosted at NIN.  When I saw MB's article in
alt.comp.software.thunbderbird, that newsgroup was polled from NIN's
server.

According to MB's Path header, he posted at Eternal-September which
peered to erje.net and that peered to NIN where I saw MB's post.

Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail

Domain registration for erje.net is worthless (completely redacted)
probably using GDPR as an excuse.  Don't know who is erje.net.  nslookup
on erje.net returns 83.162.211.106 IPv4 (and an IPv6 address, too).
That IP address is in the IP pool for XS4ALL who I have heard of.
XS4All merged into their parent company, KPN (who bought XS4ALL back in
1998).

I don't recall Eternal-September or Individual.net ever linking
newsgroups together to make articles in one appear in the other.  I
don't know what is going on at KPN/XS4ALL/erje.net.  However, I doubt
the problem is linking together of multiple newsgroups.  Seems more
likely MB somehow got Thunderbird (or whatever client he is really
using) to lie for where he actually submitted his article.

You: MB's original does not exist in a.c.s.thundrbird on NIN.
Me:  NIN is where I saw MB's post in a.c.s.thunderbird.

NIN is the only NNTP server I've used for 3+ years since deciding to pay
10 euro per year to get a reliable Usenet provider.  ES kept going down
too often.  Albansani died.  Now Mozilla died, too.  NIN is the only one
I've used for years (and Mozilla until they left).  

See the screenshot of my client at:

https://imgur.com/a/oWaefHF

where it shows:
- In alt.comp.software.thunderbird
- On Individual's NNTP server
- MB's article appears
- but MB's Newsgroup header doesn't show alt.comp.software.thunderbird

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#317 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

VanguardLH wrote:

> You: MB's original does not exist in a.c.s.thundrbird on NIN.
> Me:  NIN is where I saw MB's post in a.c.s.thunderbird.

I guess we're both sticking with what we saw and reported, so we'll have 
to agree to disagree.

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#323 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

Okay, I spent some time figuring out how to use telnet to login into my
NIN account to check if MB's post is in the a.c.s.thunderbird newsgroup.
All these telnetted NNTP commands are something I just read about and
not from expertise from coding an NNTP client.

After using authinfo to send my username and password to NIN's server, I
issued:

newnews alt.comp.software.thunderbird 20210425 000000

That lists the message IDs for all articles in that newsgroup since the
start of the day that MB posted.  I copied the list into Notepad so I
could search on <s637el$qq2$2@dont-email.me> which is the Message-ID for
MB's article.  Not found.

If I did this correctly, the newnews command is not listing MB's article
as being in the a.c.s.thunderbird newsgroup.  Argh!  Guess there's a bug
in 40tude Dialog.

Dialog seems to be presenting MB's article in the a.c.s.thunderbird
newsgroup despite his Newsgroups header doesn't list that newsgroup, and
NIN's server doesn't show MB's Message-ID in the newnews command.

Your reply-started thread has "References: <s637el$qq2$2@dont-email.me>"
to point to MB's parent article, but he posted to the uk.tech.broadcast
newsgroup to which I don't subscribe.  It's almost like Dialog yanked
the parent article from another newsgroup to show a complete tree for
the thread.  Too bad BernD doesn't visit this newsgroup as he's the sole
remaining expert on how Dialog works.  Hmm, guess I'll have to attribute
the fuckup to Dialog.  Sucks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRO382FwkXI
Guess that's me struggling with the discrepancy.  

Thought I had something there.  Now it looks like Dialog fucked up.
Maybe it's a "feature" that I had not run into before: a new thread
starts with an article but which has a References header pointing to a
parent article in a different newsgroup, so bring that parent article
into the thread although into the wrong newsgroup.

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#327 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:39:49 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Okay, I spent some time figuring out how to use telnet to login into my
>NIN account to check if MB's post is in the a.c.s.thunderbird newsgroup.

>If I did this correctly, the newnews command is not listing MB's article
>as being in the a.c.s.thunderbird newsgroup.  Argh!  Guess there's a bug
>in 40tude Dialog.

Correct... MB posted it solely to 'uk.tech.broadcast'.  Andy Burns
considered it worthy of appearance on topic with a.c.s.TB.

It cannot have ever appeared elsewhere, though I'd be puzzled by any
40tude Dialog screw-up.

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#334 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

VanguardLH wrote:

> Guess there's a bug in 40tude Dialog.

I don't know whether 40tude attempts xpost handling, I use thunderbird 
and know it does nothing, I also remember the "fun" Agent/FreeAgent used 
to have with xposts back in the day.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#336 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> Guess there's a bug in 40tude Dialog.
> 
> I don't know whether 40tude attempts xpost handling, I use thunderbird 
> and know it does nothing, I also remember the "fun" Agent/FreeAgent used 
> to have with xposts back in the day.

I pinged Bernd in the news.software.readers newsgroup about the
perplexing behavior in Dialog.  His response makes sense on how to
reconstruct a thread: the MID is used from the References header to use
in issuing an "article <MID>" command to the NNTP server, and the server
returns the article regardless of which newsgroup is was under.

The following is the discussion I had with Bernd in the other newsgroup
about Dialog.  After I saw how the 'article' command works, I can see
why Dialog behaves the way it does.  It can't do much more than what
'article' does when reconstructing a thread.  I probably did do a
reconstruct when I saw your reply post starting with "Re:" but didn't
see the parent article(s).  BernD trimmed the quoted content to just the
last paragraph on my inquiry, but his explanation makes sense.


---- Discussion with Bernd ---
newsgroup: news.software.readers
subject: "Ping: BernD - Dialog shows post from wrong newsgroup"

Bernd Rose <b.rose.tmpbox@arcor.de> wrote:

> On Tue, 27th Apr 2021 19:11:17 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> Does Dialog have a "feature" that it completes a thread tree back to its
>> parent even when the article is in a different newsgroup when the parent
>> is on the same NNTP server?
> 
> If you tell Dialog to "Reconstruct thread" (Online menu), it does so
> in the current Newsgroup for the currently selected message. Dialog
> traverses the References header and places all referenced messages 
> into the current Newsgroup. This is a deliberately programmed feature, 
> not a bug.
> 
> You can also retrieve messages in the "wrong" Newsgroup with Dialog by
> retrieving a message by Messge-ID. 
> 
> Marcus thought both functions as useful and I wholeheartedly agree.
> 
> HTH.
> Bernd (not: BernD, btw.)

I don't recall using Reconstruct Thread for that message, but I've used
it often enough that it might've happened.  Perhaps I saw the thread
starting with "Re: <subject>" and wanted to see the parent article to
show more of the past articles of the thread for whatever reason they
weren't showing up in the newsgroup that I visited.  I didn't realize
Dialog would yank the article from a different newsgroup.  I thought it
just got old articles from the same newsgroup.

When I was figuring the problem, I read up on the NNTP commands.  One
was the 'article' command which you gave a message-ID as its argument.
You didn't need to use GROUP to select a newsgroup because the 
'article <MID>' command got the article from wherever it is from the
Articles database which also means the 'article' command doesn't show
you in which newsgroup was the message.  So, if Dialog is using the
References header to find the parent articles, yeah, I can see it using
'article <MID>' to rebuild a thread with articles from all over.

When I saw how the 'article <MID>' command works (to retrieve an article
regardless of which newsgroup it was grouped), I can see Dialog using
the same command to reconstruct a thread, and why it ends up with the
same results as the 'article' command: articles from any newsgroup.

I was baffled on how an article in a different newsgroup ended up
showing in another newsgroup.  Good thing I get my hair cut short to
just have fuzz on my head; else, I'd have fistfuls of hair around my
computer chair.  Thanks for the information.  

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#322 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 20:10:26 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> How did his post (not yours) show up in a newsgroup that is not listed
>> (alt.comp.software.thunderbird) in the Newsgroups header?
>
>MB's original does not exist in a.c.s.thundrbird on NIN

Nor on newshosting

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#329 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> writes:

> Yes, I saw you added the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup when
> you replied, but *MB's post* does not specify that newsgroup.  He only
> specified the uk.tech.broadcast newsgroup, yet I read his post in the
> alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup that MB did *not* specify in his
> Newsgroups header.  Something strange going on when the Newsgroups
> header does not match to which newsgroup an article shows up.

Maybe everything is much simpler than you think?

Let's say I see a thread in group a.c where the first message was posted
to group a.b, and the rest of the messages were crossposted to a.c. I'm
not subscribed to group a.b, but I want to see the original message
which started the thread. I open the headers of second message and click
on very first message id in References. My newsreader downloads that
message and automatically links it to existing thread, making it a
thread root.

It's not really some imaginary situation, I'm doing it quite often. Is
Thunderbird able to do something like that? Try to restart it. In my
newsreader messages downloaded like that do not persist, they'll
disappear once I leave the newgroup or exit the newsreader. It's just a
feature that allow me to walk up the thread even if it was originally
posted in different newsgroup(s).

If Thunderbird have no such functionality, perhaps you have some plugin
installed?

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#338 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:05:23 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

> So far, and because the client adds the Newsgroups header which is
> separate from the GROUP and POST commands the client sends, the only way
> I see MB's post could appear in newsgroups /other/ than those listed in
> his Newsgroups header is that MB is using a hacked or trolling client
> that lies in its Newsgroups header (and possibly other headers) to where
> the client actually submitted the article.


For anyone else's interest, there is no such thing.

The Newsgroups header determines which groups the post will appear in.
The GROUP and POST commands do not determine where the post will appear.


-- 
Kind regards
Ralph

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#386 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> So far, and because the client adds the Newsgroups header which is
>> separate from the GROUP and POST commands the client sends, the only
>> way I see MB's post could appear in newsgroups /other/ than those
>> listed in his Newsgroups header is that MB is using a hacked or
>> trolling client that lies in its Newsgroups header (and possibly
>> other headers) to where the client actually submitted the article.
> 
> For anyone else's interest, there is no such thing.
> 
> The Newsgroups header determines which groups the post will appear in.
> The GROUP and POST commands do not determine where the post will
> appear.

That's why I started the subthread.  It was my understanding for decades
that the Newsgroup header (despite being added by the client as data
instead of sent as commands) specified in which newsgroups a post was
linked.  Then I saw MB's post show up in a.c.s.thunderbird, but that
newsgroup was not listed in MB's Newsgroups header.  That threw up a red
flag to me.

The behavior stems from the Reconstruct Thread feature in my client.  It
uses the Message IDs in the References header to find parent articles to
retrieve to complete a thread.  I saw Andy's post that started with
"Re:" and had a References header, so it wasn't the starter post.  I
realized he probably modified his Newsgroups header to add the
a.c.s.thunderbird newsgroup, but MB's parent post was also showing up
that only had uk.tech.broadcast in MB's Newsgroups header.

As you mention, the client-specified Newsgroups header (in the data
block) is supposed to specify in which newsgroups an article is
associated, so why did MB's article with "Newsgroups: uk.tech.broadcast"
show up in a.c.s.thunderbird?  Turns out it is due to the behavior of
the 'article' command.  You don't need to use 'group' to pick a
newsgroup to use 'article', because 'article' pulls the article from
*ANY* newsgroup.  The client's Reconstruct Thread uses 'article <MID>'
to retrieve the parent post(s), and 'article' pulls the article from any
newsgroup, not the currently selected one.

I forgot that I had used Reconstruct Thread, but it was likely after
seeing Andy's article that showed up with "Re:" and a References header.
I wanted to see the parent article(s), but was surprised the parents
were getting pulled from outside the current newsgroup.  After decades
of Usenet, I still learn some new stuff about NNTP.  I don't code NNTP
clients nor sysadmin any NNTP servers, so reading RFCs is me peeking in
from the outside, and RFCs really don't fully describe how NNTP servers
operate.

By using 'group' to select a.c.s.thunderbird, and issuing the 'newnews'
command with a start date to encompass MB's article, the list of returns
MIDs did not include the one for MB's article.  So, the server confirmed
MB's article was not in the a.c.s.thunderbird newsgroup.  This verified
what other users saw in their clients.  It was Bernd that clarified how
Reconstruct Thread works, and that mirrored what I saw when using the
'article' command: parent articles get pulled regardless of which
newsgroup they are assigned to.

By starting the subthread and playing with some NNTP commands, and
especially with help from Bernd in the n.s.readers newsgroup, I learned
something new about how the client (Dialog) works, and also why it works
that way because of how the 'article' command works.  I had thought for
a long time that the Newsgroups header controlled the visibility of an
article as to which newsgroup an article would appear, saw something
inconsistent, but reinforced my prior expectation that the Newsgroups
header controls visibility.  My misunderstanding was how Reconstruct
Thread feature in my client works, how the 'article' command works, and
forgetting that I used Reconstruct Thread.  Rather than just accept what
happened, I figured a new subthread would [re]educate me.

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#387 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 08:35:50 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

> As you mention, the client-specified Newsgroups header (in the data
> block) is supposed to specify in which newsgroups an article is
> associated, so why did MB's article with "Newsgroups: uk.tech.broadcast"
> show up in a.c.s.thunderbird?  Turns out it is due to the behavior of
> the 'article' command.  You don't need to use 'group' to pick a
> newsgroup to use 'article', because 'article' pulls the article from
> *ANY* newsgroup.  The client's Reconstruct Thread uses 'article <MID>'
> to retrieve the parent post(s), and 'article' pulls the article from any
> newsgroup, not the currently selected one.


It is not the 'article' command itself, but what the client does with the 
parent post retrived.

When my client retrieves the parent post using 'article <MID>', it puts
the parent post in its own correct newsgroup -- which in this case was 
not the currently selected newsgroup.


-- 
Kind regards
Ralph

BMP Unicode Test:  ☕️☀️☺️
SMP Unicode Test:  🍵️🌞️😊️

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#390 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:

> It is not the 'article' command itself, but what the client does with
> the parent post retrived. 
> 
> When my client retrieves the parent post using 'article <MID>', it
> puts the parent post in its own correct newsgroup -- which in this
> case was not the currently selected newsgroup.

If the 'article <MID>' you client issues results in your client (Forte
Agent) placing the retrieved parent article(s) in their own newsgroups,
I take it your client doesn't have a reconstruct thread that shows a
complete thread that includes all articles by their MIDs.  You'd be in
one newsgroup, have the client issue the 'article <MID>' command, but
you wouldn't see any new [parent] articles because the client put them
under some other newsgroup.

'article <MID>' doesn't specify a newsgroup, nor does it depend on using
'group' to select a newsgroup before issuing the 'article' command.  How
would your client know into which newsgroup to put the retrieved
article?  Must be it gets the retrieved article (from any newsgroup),
read the article to find the Newsgroups header, and puts the newly
retrieved article under those newsgroups.  Okay, but if you're looking
for the parent articles in a thread, and because you aren't in the
newsgroup specified within those retrieved articles, how do you know
where the retrieved articles got put?  In the group where you're reading
a subthread, you don't have the parent article, you cannot read the
parent article because it is in some other newsgroup, and you won't know
what are the other newsgroups to go read the parent post there.  in
which other newsgroups the parent article got placed.  By bolding a
new-message counter showing in the newsgroups pane?  That would only
work if the parent article was placed in a newsgroup to which you
subscribed, as your client isn't showing you every newsgroup to see
which just got bolded and a new-message count got upped.

If you see a starting article start with "Re:" in the Subject header,
and the article has a References header, you know it is a reply and
there is a parent article.  You don't have the parent article to see in
which newsgroups it was placed.  So, after issuing "article <MID>' (from
the References header in the Re: start post), how do you know in which
newsgroup to read the newly retrieved parent article?

Does Forte Agent have a conversation view that pulls articles from one,
or more, newsgroups to then show as a thread?

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#391 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

On Sat, 1 May 2021 01:07:10 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

> You'd be in
> one newsgroup, have the client issue the 'article <MID>' command, but
> you wouldn't see any new [parent] articles because the client put them
> under some other newsgroup.

I do see the new [parent] article.  My client is configured to open a 
new tab on the other newsgroup.  
☺️✔️😎️
If I chose to, I would move the parent article into the newsgroup I am 
in (and I would know that the parent article had not appeared there).


> 'article <MID>' doesn't specify a newsgroup, nor does it depend on using
> 'group' to select a newsgroup before issuing the 'article' command.  How
> would your client know into which newsgroup to put the retrieved
> article?  Must be it gets the retrieved article (from any newsgroup),
> read the article to find the Newsgroups header, and puts the newly
> retrieved article under those newsgroups.

Of course -- it reads the Newsgroups header.  It is smart that way.
It never misleads me about which newsgroup the parent article is in.
❓️🤔️💡️✔️

> Okay, but if you're looking
> for the parent articles in a thread, and because you aren't in the
> newsgroup specified within those retrieved articles, how do you know
> where the retrieved articles got put?

A new tab opens on the other newsgroup, with the retrieved article 
selected.
☝️😀️

-- 
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊 

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#398 — Re: Cross-posting not showing in Newsgroups header

Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
> 
>> You'd be in one newsgroup, have the client issue the 'article <MID>'
>> command, but you wouldn't see any new [parent] articles because the
>> client put them under some other newsgroup.
> 
> I do see the new [parent] article.  My client is configured to open a 
> new tab on the other newsgroup.  
>
> If I chose to, I would move the parent article into the newsgroup I am 
> in (and I would know that the parent article had not appeared there).

That would work.  It would also be less confusing that the parent
article was in a different newsgroup than from where you saw it when its
Newsgroups header didn't list the newsgroup you were in.

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