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Groups > alt.comp.os.windows-11 > #18520 > unrolled thread
| Started by | micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-04-19 22:34 -0400 |
| Last post | 2025-04-21 12:08 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 81 — 17 participants |
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Mechanical or SSD for backup drive micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-19 22:34 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-20 03:48 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-04-20 09:27 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Valerio Vanni <valerio.vanni@inwind.it> - 2025-04-20 11:50 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-20 20:23 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-20 16:55 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-21 14:42 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-21 21:22 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-22 20:15 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-22 16:52 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-04-23 00:37 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-04-23 17:45 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-24 20:56 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-24 22:37 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-24 21:48 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-25 05:32 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-25 20:14 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-25 13:37 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-25 23:32 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-25 20:20 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-04-25 22:02 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-26 19:44 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-26 21:00 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-26 20:07 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-26 17:20 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-27 14:17 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-26 19:24 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-26 22:28 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-04-27 11:36 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-28 00:16 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 21:09 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-30 19:24 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-04-30 20:20 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 21:18 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-04-25 19:04 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-25 23:33 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-26 20:04 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-26 21:05 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-23 19:26 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Sam E <no.email@here.invalid> - 2025-04-22 23:00 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-04-23 00:40 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-04-20 07:15 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-20 11:11 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-04-20 12:08 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-04-20 12:38 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-04-20 12:31 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2025-04-21 02:38 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-21 03:52 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-21 11:51 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-21 21:13 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2025-04-22 06:07 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-22 05:34 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-04-21 07:40 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-21 09:12 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-04-21 14:54 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-04-21 15:29 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-04-21 16:06 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-21 17:45 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-04-22 00:15 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2025-04-21 23:01 -0500
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-04-22 06:58 +0100
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-22 05:47 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2025-04-22 10:37 -0500
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-22 14:34 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-04-21 11:38 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-04-21 18:29 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-04-21 22:23 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-04-21 14:05 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Mr Xi Ji Ping <ping@china.cn> - 2025-04-21 15:30 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-04-21 11:28 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-15 21:33 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-15 07:41 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 14:06 +0200
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-15 09:31 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-15 23:36 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2025-05-15 23:26 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 14:27 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-16 18:38 +1000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-05-16 14:51 +0000
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 11:06 -0400
Re: Mechanical or SSD for backup drive micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-21 12:08 -0400
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| From | micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-19 22:34 -0400 |
| Subject | Mechanical or SSD for backup drive |
| Message-ID | <5cm80k1qavurb3keb805p5msgsbaimh7qt@4ax.com> |
The small 2 Terabyte WD Elements external backup drive I paid $60 for 4 years ago is now $80. I thought computer stuff was supposed to get cheaper with time!! (Well, that was last week. tonight it's down to 70.) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06W55K9N6?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_2 It's mechanical. A solid state drive the same size is almost twice as much. (The cheapest on Amazon is $112. Well, Vanzuny is 109, but I never heard of Vanzuny.) 1) Would you spend almost twice as much for a drive just used for backups? Speed is not an issue. The current one is plenty fast. And damage is not an issue: I rarely go out of town and when I do I don't take my bacup drive, although in the past they were 5 1/2" drives. Now they are much smaller and I could if you told me I should.) 2) Do you keep your backup files for an old computer, when you've copied everythign to the newer computer? Since all the data files have been copied to the new computer, I could, to save m money, erase the old computer files and use it for the new one and I wouldn't have to buy a new drive. Good idea?
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| From | Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-20 03:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <vu28sn$3c56t$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #18520 |
On Sat, 4/19/2025 10:34 PM, micky wrote:
> The small 2 Terabyte WD Elements external backup drive I paid $60 for 4
> years ago is now $80. I thought computer stuff was supposed to get
> cheaper with time!! (Well, that was last week. tonight it's down to
> 70.)
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06W55K9N6?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_2
>
> It's mechanical. A solid state drive the same size is almost twice as
> much. (The cheapest on Amazon is $112. Well, Vanzuny is 109, but I
> never heard of Vanzuny.)
>
> 1) Would you spend almost twice as much for a drive just used for
> backups? Speed is not an issue. The current one is plenty fast. And
> damage is not an issue: I rarely go out of town and when I do I don't
> take my bacup drive, although in the past they were 5 1/2" drives. Now
> they are much smaller and I could if you told me I should.)
>
> 2) Do you keep your backup files for an old computer, when you've copied
> everythign to the newer computer? Since all the data files have been
> copied to the new computer, I could, to save m money, erase the old
> computer files and use it for the new one and I wouldn't have to buy a
> new drive. Good idea?
>
It did get cheaper. Your money is just worth less now, than before.
There is a Chinese flash memory company. Of course there will be
SSD drives with low low pricing (stuff like QLC). Since they won't
have a warranty, you can open them up with a screwdriver and check
the NAND brand. If the chips have no labels, the product "exudes quality"
in such a case. Reputable brands usually have a screw set up to
"detect tampering". Keeping people out, is only necessary if there
is thermal tape on the controller, forming a conductive path to the
casing. If that happens, you should have some thermal tape ready
for the reassembly process. There are as many scams in the purchase
of thermal tape, as in the purchase of weird-brand SSD drives :-)
I've been using Lexar NS100 drives, as cheap (small) scratch drives.
These have plastic cases. The spare computer, for example, just has
a Lexar laying in the case, as the boot drive. So far, none of the
sample units have failed. Not particularly cheap, but convenient for
my usage pattern. I'm not complaining.
*******
The backup ecosystem is a complicated surface.
1) SSD is expensive for backup, but is shock-resistant to a large extent.
To ruin an SSD, you could break the connector off it. Other modes
of failure are pretty hard to trigger. Dropping from any height
you want, onto carpet, is unlikely to shear a chip off the PCB inside.
Fiberglass PCBs are pretty rugged. You should ideally look for MLC SSD
drives, but they really don't make those any more. Those would be
close to archival. TLC gets mushy, and the error corrector fixes that.
It's unclear how many years it is safe to leave a TLC drive on the
shelf. QLC is also going to get mushy, and should probably be saved
for usage as the daily-driver storage device. You would use the QLC as
a "pseudo-unreliable" product, and do backups just in case :-) If
you get my drift. I would not really be all that interested in holding
my backups on 8TB QLC drives. Bad karma.
2) Hard drives have good data retention, past the 10 years expected of
an SSD sitting on the shelf. I routinely plug in old drives, like
my 25 year old drive, and find them in "good spirits". The 80GB drive
I was testing yesterday, may have developed some errors because of
me turning the power on the drive on and off so many times.
Drives are split, into air breathers and helium (sealed) drives.
Just recently, a spate of air breathers has shown up. I used to be
able to tell people, that drives 6TB or smaller, were air breathers.
Now, there are drives at 12TB available as an air breather (3 watts
more power dissipation due to friction), as well as 12TB Helium drives.
I can no longer dismissively wave my hand and sniff at this stuff.
Now, we have to read the model numbers, and check. If the price was
right, the 12TB air breather might be attractive as a backup drive.
2a) Air breather drives last a long time. The motors are FDB (fluid dynamic bearing),
which is frictionless once the motor is up to speed. However, the surface
of the platter, can respond to contaminants in the air, and while there
is a hepafilter on the breather hole, we don't really know how good of
a job that is doing. My experience here is, I see more drive failures
after a month of humid conditions in the room, than when the room is
a bit drier. Still, considering how long an archive has to last, I'm
never too concerned that an OS backup will croak after only two years.
Note that, the hepafilter design has changed, and the serpentine path
is now longer. The idea is, the path inside is shaped, so the air has
to travel a slightly longer distance.
2b) Helium drives are sealed. Helium is getting expensive. This is part of
the reason that air breathers are going up the capacity chart, the drive
may be cheaper due to the shortage of Helium. Helium drives are warranted
for five years, for the ability to hold the helium gas inside. We don't
really know, how many years a helium drive would last (as an archival device).
There is no gas port, to pump them up again. They are above atmospheric
pressure a tiny bit, and this allows the drive to have a sensor inside
to detect a gas failure. The drive has two covers -- the "adhesive cover"
holds the gas. The "mechanical cover" is welded over top of the adhesive
cover. The mechanical cover is not gas-tight. But it serves to keep the
adhesive cover from moving. As a joke, data recovery companies have been
using NC machines, to mill the weld edge in order to get the outside
cover off. (Air breathers come apart with a screwdriver, during repair.)
Because it's sealed, the drive inside is very clean and there is no possibility
of a redox reaction on the plating surface. The drive uses less electrical
power, due to reduced friction while rotating. The heads still "fly" in
helium, and there is a high pressure zone right underneath the sled. To
maintain a high pressure zone like that, implies friction and energy loss.
That pressure, helps cushion the head and give the 70 gees of shock resistance.
We get super high quality storage, are likely to be able to do a restore,
two years after doing a backup. But the actual period of time the helium
stays in the can, is an unknown. I own just one Helium drive, to see how
long it lasts :-) It's an 18TB drive. My backup fleet is six 6TB air breather
drives.
Summary: We have three applications. SSD drive while traveling, due to shock
resistance. The people at the border can copy your drive faster, at
530MB/sec, which is handy.
Short term quality storage, would be a Helium drive (until we have field
statistics on gas failures for these things). I don't know if the
Helium drive will still have gas in 20 years time.
Long term quality storage, would be an air breather HDD. They have demonstrated
they can live past the 10 year estimated flash life of an SSD. You compare
the prices, to see where the "sweet spot is". the curve used to be V-shaped,
and the center of the V was the sweet spot. More recent pricing has been
a straight line with capacity.
If any of the high capacity drives use glass platters, we don't know
how the properties of glass affect service life. When you put ten
platters inside a drive, the platters have to be thinner. A 6TB drive
could use three platters or four platters, and full fat platters could
be used for those. They try not to have too many platter types, in inventory.
But I suppose that is unavoidable these days. The platters for a HAMR or
MAMR drive, aren't going to be the same as the PMR ones.
Paul
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| From | Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-20 09:27 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <m6jpfpFg7n0U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #18521 |
Paul wrote: > There are as many scams in the purchase > of thermal tape, as in the purchase of ... ... totally genuine 3M VHB tape. > The spare computer, for example, just has > a Lexar laying in the case, as the boot drive. Screws in 2.5" SSDs are optional, even double-sided sticky pads are optional :-)
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| From | Valerio Vanni <valerio.vanni@inwind.it> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-20 11:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ipg90kdpnds41iepg286qch6p75i17iqmf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #18522 |
On Sun, 20 Apr 2025 09:27:30 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote: >> There are as many scams in the purchase >> of thermal tape, as in the purchase of ... > >... totally genuine 3M VHB tape. > >> The spare computer, for example, just has >> a Lexar laying in the case, as the boot drive. > >Screws in 2.5" SSDs are optional, even double-sided sticky pads are >optional :-) I use a single screw. It doesn't run away :-) -- Ci sono 10 tipi di persone al mondo: quelle che capiscono il sistema binario e quelle che non lo capiscono.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-20 20:23 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <imqfdlxojj.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #18521 |
On 2025-04-20 09:48, Paul wrote: > On Sat, 4/19/2025 10:34 PM, micky wrote: ... > 2a) Air breather drives last a long time. The motors are FDB (fluid dynamic bearing), > which is frictionless once the motor is up to speed. However, the surface > of the platter, can respond to contaminants in the air, and while there > is a hepafilter on the breather hole, we don't really know how good of > a job that is doing. My experience here is, I see more drive failures > after a month of humid conditions in the room, than when the room is > a bit drier. Still, considering how long an archive has to last, I'm > never too concerned that an OS backup will croak after only two years. > Note that, the hepafilter design has changed, and the serpentine path > is now longer. The idea is, the path inside is shaped, so the air has > to travel a slightly longer distance. Yep. Bough recently some "Seagate IronWolf Pro NAS 10TB 3.5" SATA 3" and they are air breathers. The hole was clearly visible with a filter. The gyroscopic effect when removing one from a test cady is very noticeable. Surprised me. > > 2b) Helium drives are sealed. Helium is getting expensive. This is part of > the reason that air breathers are going up the capacity chart, the drive > may be cheaper due to the shortage of Helium. I wonder, why not nitrogen? Helium is a noble gas, reacts to nothing. It leaks through anything like a sieve, perhaps like hydrogen. But nitrogen doesn't react to many things. > Helium drives are warranted > for five years, for the ability to hold the helium gas inside. We don't > really know, how many years a helium drive would last (as an archival device). > There is no gas port, to pump them up again. They are above atmospheric > pressure a tiny bit, and this allows the drive to have a sensor inside > to detect a gas failure. The drive has two covers -- the "adhesive cover" > holds the gas. The "mechanical cover" is welded over top of the adhesive > cover. The mechanical cover is not gas-tight. But it serves to keep the > adhesive cover from moving. As a joke, data recovery companies have been > using NC machines, to mill the weld edge in order to get the outside > cover off. (Air breathers come apart with a screwdriver, during repair.) > > Because it's sealed, the drive inside is very clean and there is no possibility > of a redox reaction on the plating surface. The drive uses less electrical > power, due to reduced friction while rotating. The heads still "fly" in > helium, and there is a high pressure zone right underneath the sled. To > maintain a high pressure zone like that, implies friction and energy loss. > That pressure, helps cushion the head and give the 70 gees of shock resistance. > > We get super high quality storage, are likely to be able to do a restore, > two years after doing a backup. But the actual period of time the helium > stays in the can, is an unknown. I own just one Helium drive, to see how > long it lasts :-) It's an 18TB drive. My backup fleet is six 6TB air breather > drives. > > Summary: We have three applications. SSD drive while traveling, due to shock > resistance. The people at the border can copy your drive faster, at > 530MB/sec, which is handy. :-) Mine are encrypted. I hope they have some fun. ... -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-20 16:55 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <plna0k9cv9dmjggdbnl8cvrmua7odq5gg1@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #18532 |
In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Sun, 20 Apr 2025 20:23:46 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >isible with a filter. > >The gyroscopic effect when removing one from a test cady is very >noticeable. Surprised me. I've thought about this. With all the harddrives spinning all over the world, and the difficulty of changing their orientation, because of the gyroscopic effect, isn't that going to interfere with the rotation of the earth. And that will make days longer, and thus years will also be longer.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-21 14:42 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <52rhdlxsel.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #18541 |
On 2025-04-20 22:55, micky wrote: > In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Sun, 20 Apr 2025 20:23:46 +0200, "Carlos > E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > >> isible with a filter. >> >> The gyroscopic effect when removing one from a test cady is very >> noticeable. Surprised me. > > I've thought about this. With all the harddrives spinning all over the > world, and the difficulty of changing their orientation, because of the > gyroscopic effect, isn't that going to interfere with the rotation of > the earth. And that will make days longer, and thus years will also be > longer. Negligible compared to cars. -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-21 21:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <0krd0k179n9k6n07ge3dtcg212khmboak6@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #18554 |
In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Mon, 21 Apr 2025 14:42:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >On 2025-04-20 22:55, micky wrote: >> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Sun, 20 Apr 2025 20:23:46 +0200, "Carlos >> E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >> >>> isible with a filter. >>> >>> The gyroscopic effect when removing one from a test cady is very >>> noticeable. Surprised me. >> >> I've thought about this. With all the harddrives spinning all over the >> world, and the difficulty of changing their orientation, because of the >> gyroscopic effect, isn't that going to interfere with the rotation of >> the earth. And that will make days longer, and thus years will also be >> longer. > >Negligible compared to cars. I don't know. 20 years ago on work days I was tired by 6 or 7PM, and now I'm tired by 5PM. If I get up at 7, one would think t hat's only 10 hours, I think it's because it 10 new hours take as long as 11 old hours took, because hours are longer. Because of all the hard drives. Now that we're switching to solid state drives, I expect to have more energy later in the day, because the days will go more quickly.
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-22 20:15 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <vu7q78$bpdo$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #18541 |
On 21/04/2025 6:55 am, micky wrote: > In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Sun, 20 Apr 2025 20:23:46 +0200, "Carlos > E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > >> isible with a filter. >> >> The gyroscopic effect when removing one from a test cady is very >> noticeable. Surprised me. > > I've thought about this. With all the harddrives spinning all over the > world, and the difficulty of changing their orientation, because of the > gyroscopic effect, isn't that going to interfere with the rotation of > the earth. And that will make days longer, and thus years will also be > longer. > Ah!! Is that why, now-a-days, things seem to have shorter lives .... the Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P -- Daniel70
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| From | micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-22 16:52 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <d90g0k9sngjiqs3mjr98h04o9rgi6rad32@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #18593 |
In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >On 21/04/2025 6:55 am, micky wrote: >> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Sun, 20 Apr 2025 20:23:46 +0200, "Carlos >> E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >> >>> isible with a filter. >>> >>> The gyroscopic effect when removing one from a test cady is very >>> noticeable. Surprised me. >> >> I've thought about this. With all the harddrives spinning all over the >> world, and the difficulty of changing their orientation, because of the >> gyroscopic effect, isn't that going to interfere with the rotation of >> the earth. And that will make days longer, and thus years will also be >> longer. >> >Ah!! Is that why, now-a-days, things seem to have shorter lives .... the Yes, especially appliances. >Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic that confirm this.
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| From | Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-23 00:37 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <vu9976$1ln2u$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #18604 |
On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: > > In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 > <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >> >> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P > > Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think > there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic > that confirm this. Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse to diagrams ... The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so. The centrifugal effect of its spin throws its mass around the equator outwards which in turn draws in mass from the poles, so its spin makes it an 'oblate spheroid', a near sphere that bulges, has an increased radius, in the equatorial plane and contracts, has a reduced radius, in the polar plane, or put more simply its equatorial radius is somewhat bigger than its polar radius. This overall underlying shape is distorted daily by the moon's gravitational pull interacting with the earth's spin. Most of us are very familiar with the idea that the moon's gravity causes tidal bulges in the ocean on opposite sides of the earth, both towards the moon and away from it, but it also causes similar tidal bulges in the earth's solid structure. Because the earth is spinning, and it takes a material time for this tidal bulging to adjust, the bulge's axis is always slightly ahead of the line connecting the centres of the earth and moon. Hence the gravitational pull between the bulge and the moon is acting to pull the bulge 'backwards' in relation to the earth's spin and the moon 'forwards' in relation to its orbit. In other words, the earth's rate of spin is being gradually slowed by this 'tidal friction', while the moon's orbital speed is being gradually accelerated, which in turn increases the radius of its orbit, so the moon is gradually escaping the earth's gravity because it is slowly sucking the energy to do so out of the earth's spin. This applies equally to the moon also, which already tidal friction has slowed in its spin to the point that its period of spin is now equal to the period of its orbit, so it always shows almost the same face towards the earth - 'almost' because it still rocks slightly back and forth across the line of centres as its tidal bulge swings like a pendulum, all that is left now of whatever rotational energy of spin that it had when first the earth and moon became entrapped in their mutual gravity. A long time into the future, there will come a time when the earth's spin also will be slowed so much that it too will always show the same face to the moon. If my explanation above is not sufficiently clear, which it might not be due to the lack of diagrams, then this might help, or else do a search and choose a page or a video from a reputable source like a university: Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 -- Fake news kills! I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website: www.macfh.co.uk
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| From | "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-23 17:45 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <20250423174555.8bd6d55ab023acb63f417586@127.0.0.1> |
| In reply to | #18607 |
On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: > On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: > > > > In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 > > <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: > >> > >> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P > > > > Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think > > there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic > > that confirm this. > > Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse > to diagrams ... > > The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a > consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so. [] > Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 > So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. -- Bah, and indeed Humbug.
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-24 20:56 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <vud5dh$1dstd$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #18629 |
On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: > On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 > Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 >>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>> >>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think >>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic >>> that confirm this. >> >> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse >> to diagrams ... >> >> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so. > [] >> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 > > So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. > WHY?? -- Daniel70
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-24 22:37 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <c0kqdlxf3i.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #18637 |
On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote: > On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 >> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 >>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>>> >>>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think >>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic >>>> that confirm this. >>> >>> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse >>> to diagrams ... >>> >>> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so. >> [] >>> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 >> >> So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >> > WHY?? All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula, but not the definition. -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-24 21:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <idql0klmgsjtl9f2jt813sf4s9iql5jjpa@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #18645 |
In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Thu, 24 Apr 2025 22:37:00 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 >>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>>> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 >>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>>>> >>>>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think >>>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic >>>>> that confirm this. >>>> >>>> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse >>>> to diagrams ... >>>> >>>> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so. >>> [] >>>> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 >>> >>> So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >>> >> WHY?? > >All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula, >but not the definition. With the increased popularity of SSDs, we could prevent the need to change the forumula by banning HDDs. Something the United Nations should consider.
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| From | Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-25 05:32 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <vufkqo$3m9h4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #18648 |
On Thu, 4/24/2025 9:48 PM, micky wrote: > In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Thu, 24 Apr 2025 22:37:00 +0200, "Carlos > E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > >> On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote: >>> On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >>>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 >>>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>>>> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>>>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 >>>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think >>>>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic >>>>>> that confirm this. >>>>> >>>>> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse >>>>> to diagrams ... >>>>> >>>>> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>>>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so. >>>> [] >>>>> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 >>>> >>>> So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >>>> >>> WHY?? >> >> All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula, >> but not the definition. > > With the increased popularity of SSDs, we could prevent the need to > change the forumula by banning HDDs. Something the United Nations > should consider. > Why not worry about something else for a while ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field Stuff inside the Earth is moving. The masses involved are much larger than your hard drive(s). Paul
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-25 20:14 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <vufnb0$3ohsf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #18645 |
On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 >>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>>> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, >>>>> Daniel70 >>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>>>> >>>>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think >>>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National >>>>> Geographic >>>>> that confirm this. >>>> >>>> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without >>>> recourse >>>> to diagrams ... >>>> >>>> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not >>>> so. >>> [] >>>> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 >>> >>> So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >>> >> WHY?? > > All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula, > but not the definition. > WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions (Orthodox excluded, I think) set Easter according to the first FULL MOON following the (Northern) Spring Equinox. If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still be Full MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change. -- Daniel70
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-25 13:37 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lo8sdlx2o6.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #18654 |
On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote: > On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote: >>> On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >>>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 >>>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>>>> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>>>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, >>>>>> Daniel70 >>>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I >>>>>> think >>>>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National >>>>>> Geographic >>>>>> that confirm this. >>>>> >>>>> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without >>>>> recourse >>>>> to diagrams ... >>>>> >>>>> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>>>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this >>>>> not so. >>>> [] >>>>> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 >>>> >>>> So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >>>> >>> WHY?? >> >> All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula, >> but not the definition. >> > WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions (Orthodox excluded, > I think) set Easter according to the first FULL MOON following the > (Northern) Spring Equinox. > > If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still be Full > MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change. But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit changes, so the formula changes. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms> -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-25 23:32 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <vug2t6$2is9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #18655 |
On 25/04/2025 9:37 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote: >>>> On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 >>>>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>>>>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, >>>>>>> Daniel70 >>>>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National >>>>>>> Geographic >>>>>>> that confirm this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without >>>>>> recourse >>>>>> to diagrams ... >>>>>> >>>>>> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>>>>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this >>>>>> not so. >>>>> [] >>>>>> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 >>>>> >>>>> So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >>>>> >>>> WHY?? >>> >>> All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula, >>> but not the definition. >>> >> WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions (Orthodox >> excluded, I think) set Easter according to the first FULL MOON >> following the (Northern) Spring Equinox. >> >> If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still be Full >> MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change. > > But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit changes, so > the formula changes. > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms> > After a quick browse, from that site .... Quote One can easily see how conversion from day-of-March (22 to 56) to day-and-month (22 March to 25 April) End Quote Where does the 34 days (56 - 22) come from?? Is this assuming The Moon drifts away from Earth so its orbit takes longer?? -- Daniel70
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-25 20:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ic0tdlxmat.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #18659 |
On 2025-04-25 15:32, Daniel70 wrote: > On 25/04/2025 9:37 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote: >>> On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote: >>>>> On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 >>>>>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote: >>>>>>>> In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, >>>>>>>> Daniel70 >>>>>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National >>>>>>>> Geographic >>>>>>>> that confirm this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without >>>>>>> recourse >>>>>>> to diagrams ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>>>>>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this >>>>>>> not so. >>>>>> [] >>>>>>> Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth >>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119 >>>>>> >>>>>> So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, >>>>>> RSN. >>>>>> >>>>> WHY?? >>>> >>>> All christian religions and judaism would have to change the >>>> formula, but not the definition. >>>> >>> WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions (Orthodox >>> excluded, I think) set Easter according to the first FULL MOON >>> following the (Northern) Spring Equinox. >>> >>> If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still be Full >>> MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change. >> >> But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit changes, so >> the formula changes. >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms> >> > After a quick browse, from that site .... > > Quote > One can easily see how conversion from day-of-March (22 to 56) to day- > and-month (22 March to 25 April) > End Quote > > Where does the 34 days (56 - 22) come from?? Is this assuming The Moon > drifts away from Earth so its orbit takes longer?? No. The algorithm runs with the current orbit assumptions. -- Cheers, Carlos.
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