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Different levels of sleep.

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  Different levels of sleep.  micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 01:02 -0400
    Re: Different levels of sleep. "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-05-01 08:28 +0200
      Re: Different levels of sleep. "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-05-01 08:33 +0100
        Re: Different levels of sleep. Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-05-01 08:46 +0100
          Re: Different levels of sleep. Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> - 2025-05-01 10:45 -0700
            Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 14:28 -0400
              Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 14:40 -0400
              Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-02 01:48 -0400
                Re: Different levels of sleep. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-02 14:08 -0400
              Re: Different levels of sleep. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-02 06:49 -0400
            Re: Different levels of sleep. Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-02 19:36 +1000
        Re: Different levels of sleep. "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-05-01 10:51 +0200
          Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 13:39 -0400
      Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 04:59 -0400
        Re: Different levels of sleep. MikeS <mikes@is.invalid> - 2025-05-01 16:30 +0100
          Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 14:33 -0400
        Re: Different levels of sleep. "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2025-05-01 17:35 +0200
          Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 14:31 -0400
        Re: Different levels of sleep. Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-05-01 11:51 -0400
          Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-01 14:03 -0400
            Re: Different levels of sleep. Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-05-01 15:48 -0400
              Re: Different levels of sleep. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-02 06:58 -0400
                Re: Different levels of sleep. Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-05-02 08:15 -0400
                  Re: Different levels of sleep. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-02 12:01 -0400
            Re: Different levels of sleep. micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-02 01:36 -0400
    Re: Different levels of sleep.  micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-05-21 15:21 -0400
      Re: Different levels of sleep. Sleep Expert <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-22 00:01 +0000

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#18863 — Different levels of sleep.

Different levels of sleep. 

So far, I've only checked t his out  on win10, but it might apply to
win11 too.  Does it? 

I finally noticed a distinction in what sleep does, depending afaict on
what program has focus when the PC goes to sleep. 

I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC up
(and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt  results from
using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)

It turns out, afaict, that if Solitaire has focus when the PC goes to
sleep, any movement of the mouse will wake it, but if Eudora or
Notepad++ or Forte Agent have focus, the mouse has no effect, but the
keyboard space bar or ctrl key, and maybe others, will wake it up. 

Did I get it right?  Is this true in win11 too?

I wish I'd known this earlier.  I play much too much solitaire and the
last program used is very often solitaire, and then it wakes up again! 

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#18864

Micky,

> I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
> up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt  results
> from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)

You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch 
off the monitor" state.   On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active 
first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).

FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your 
'puter will be in.

The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter 
that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of 
watching a movie or listening to music.  You don't want your 'puter to 
"switch off" in the middle of it).

By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator 
lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you, 
the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.

By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep" 
sleep.  The former starts faster but uses battery.  The latter starts 
slower, but needs some disk space.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18867

On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:28:17 +0200
"R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote:

> Micky,
> 
> > I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
> > up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt  results
> > from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)
> 
> You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch 
> off the monitor" state.   On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active 
> first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).
> 
> FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your 
> 'puter will be in.
> 
> The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter 
> that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of 
> watching a movie or listening to music.  You don't want your 'puter to 
> "switch off" in the middle of it).
> 
> By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator 
> lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you, 
> the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.
> 
> By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep" 
> sleep.  The former starts faster but uses battery.  The latter starts 
> slower, but needs some disk space.
> 

WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
called "Standby". 
You could either set the timers in "Power Options" or manually choose them
from the "Start" "ShutDown" menu.



-- 
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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#18868

Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

> WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
> called "Standby".

Now you have "modern standby"

<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>

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#18907

On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:46:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
> 
> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> 
> > WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
> > called "Standby".
> 
> Now you have "modern standby"
> 
> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>

Oh lovely. And there's this gem:

"Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a 
setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is not supported in 
Windows without a complete OS re-install."

Is there any reasonably straightforward way for to find out whether 
one has S3 or Modern Standby? I think so, from this article:

> https://www.windowscentral.com/how-determine-power-sleep-states-supported-windows-10

My TL;DR take: in an admin command prompt, paste this command:

powercfg /availablesleepstates

Modern Standby = "S0 lower-power idle", according to the article, and 
I'm glad to see I don't have it.

This next article gives clear and detailed descriptions of the 
various sleep states. That helps in interpreting the output of the 
above powercfg command:

> https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/63346-sleep-states-available-your-windows-10-pc.html

Here's that article's explanation of Hybrid Sleep (which powercfg 
says I have):

"Hybrid sleep, used on desktops, is where a system uses a hibernation 
file with S1-S3. The hibernation file saves the system state in case 
the system loses power while in sleep."

-- 
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA         https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

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#18910

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 10:45:08 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:46:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>> 
>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> 
>> > WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
>> > called "Standby".
>> 
>> Now you have "modern standby"
>> 
>> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>
>
>Oh lovely. And there's this gem:
>
>"Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a 
>setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is not supported in 
>Windows without a complete OS re-install."
>
>Is there any reasonably straightforward way for to find out whether 
>one has S3 or Modern Standby? I think so, from this article:
>
>> https://www.windowscentral.com/how-determine-power-sleep-states-supported-windows-10
>
>My TL;DR take: in an admin command prompt, paste this command:
>
>powercfg /availablesleepstates


For my 9 y.o. laptop, built maybe for win8 shows what follows and my
desktop shows the same thing, exactly: 

 The following sleep states are available on this system:
    Standby (S3)
    Hibernate       -- elsewhere called s4
    Hybrid Sleep       **
    Fast Startup    -- not the same fast startup as is set in the BIOS.
Somehow they used the same words for both. There must be a word
shortage.

The following sleep states are not available on this system:
    Standby (S1)
        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
    Standby (S2)
        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
    Standby (S0 Low Power Idle)
        The system firmware does not support this standby state.

Below I quote pages that say S0 is standard operation status, but here
it says I don't have it. so I must not be operationg. ;-(   With so many
possible numbers, did they change the meaning of S0. Maybe there is a
number shortage. 

**So if I have available Hybrid Sleep and S3 standby, how come neither
is listed in my Shutdown options, only "Sleep".  and is Sleep one of
those two, Hybrid Sleep or S3, or maybe it's neither.  Oy. 

"With each successive sleep state, from S1 to S4, more of the computer
is shut down. All ACPI-compliant computers shut off their processor
clocks at S1 and lose system hardware context at S4 (unless a hibernate
file is written before shutdown), as listed in the sections below."
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/kernel/system-sleeping-states
Mine doesn't seem to mention s4, but it turns out that hibernate is s4.
suppose because it's 9  years old. 

>Modern Standby = "S0 lower-power idle", according to the article, and 
>I'm glad to see I don't have it.

Why don't you want it? 

Anyhow, according to several pages, including the one you list below: 
Working 	S0 	The system is fully usable. Hardware components
that are not in use can save power by entering a lower power state.

Googles AI, which I don't trust at all, says "S0 (Active):
This is the standard working state where the computer is fully
operational"  which is pretty close to what the pages I do trust say. So
maybe you have S0 but S0 on win10 is not lower power idle?????   Or
maybe lower power idle is not as idle as it sounds? 

>This next article gives clear and detailed descriptions of the 
>various sleep states. That helps in interpreting the output of the 
>above powercfg command:

Oh, you already have a link to explain it 

>> https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/63346-sleep-states-available-your-windows-10-pc.html
>
>Here's that article's explanation of Hybrid Sleep (which powercfg 
>says I have):
>
>"Hybrid sleep, used on desktops, is where a system uses a hibernation 
>file with S1-S3. The hibernation file saves the system state in case 
>the system loses power while in sleep."

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#18913

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 01 May 2025 14:28:28 -0400, micky
<NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

>>powercfg /availablesleepstates

powercfg /a
   also works

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#18938

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 01 May 2025 14:28:28 -0400, micky
<NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

>In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 10:45:08 -0700, Stan Brown
><the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:46:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> 
>>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> 
>>> > WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
>>> > called "Standby".
>>> 
>>> Now you have "modern standby"
>>> 
>>> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>
>>
>>Oh lovely. And there's this gem:
>>
>>"Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a 
>>setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is not supported in 
>>Windows without a complete OS re-install."
>>
>>Is there any reasonably straightforward way for to find out whether 
>>one has S3 or Modern Standby? I think so, from this article:
>>
>>> https://www.windowscentral.com/how-determine-power-sleep-states-supported-windows-10
>>
>>My TL;DR take: in an admin command prompt, paste this command:
>>
>>powercfg /availablesleepstates
>
>
>For my 9 y.o. laptop, built maybe for win8 shows what follows and my
>desktop shows the same thing, exactly: 
>
> The following sleep states are available on this system:
>    Standby (S3)
>    Hibernate       -- elsewhere called s4
>    Hybrid Sleep       **
>    Fast Startup    -- not the same fast startup as is set in the BIOS.
>Somehow they used the same words for both. There must be a word
>shortage.
>
>The following sleep states are not available on this system:
>    Standby (S1)
>        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>    Standby (S2)
>        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>    Standby (S0 Low Power Idle)
>        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>
>Below I quote pages that say S0 is standard operation status, but here
>it says I don't have it. so I must not be operationg. ;-(   With so many
>possible numbers, did they change the meaning of S0. Maybe there is a
>number shortage. 

This is what the "new", 3 or 4 year old, Dell 5010?? laptop runing win
11 shows for possible sleep states: 

PS C:\Users\mmm> powercfg /a
The following sleep states are available on this system:
    Standby (S0 Low Power Idle) Network Connected
    Hibernate
    Fast Startup

---So it doesn't list S3, or Hybrid Sleep, only S0.  So I won't have
Hybrid Sleep anymore?? ---

The following sleep states are not available on this system:
   Standby (S1)
     The system firmware does not support this standby state.
     This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
   Standby (S2)
     The system firmware does not support this standby state.
     This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
   Standby (S3)
     This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
   Hybrid Sleep
         ----- So S1, S2 and S3 are all disabled when S0 is supported. 
               So S0 must be awfully important.  How come you don't  
               want it, Stan?  Or is this a different S0? 
     Standby (S3) is not available. ----- But I want it!!!!!
  

>
>**So if I have available Hybrid Sleep and S3 standby, how come neither
>is listed in my Shutdown options, only "Sleep".  and is Sleep one of
>those two, Hybrid Sleep or S3, or maybe it's neither.  Oy. 
>
>"With each successive sleep state, from S1 to S4, more of the computer
>is shut down. All ACPI-compliant computers shut off their processor
>clocks at S1 and lose system hardware context at S4 (unless a hibernate
>file is written before shutdown), as listed in the sections below."
>https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/kernel/system-sleeping-states
>Mine doesn't seem to mention s4, but it turns out that hibernate is s4.
>suppose because it's 9  years old. 
>
>>Modern Standby = "S0 lower-power idle", according to the article, and 
>>I'm glad to see I don't have it.
>
>Why don't you want it? 
>
>Anyhow, according to several pages, including the one you list below: 
>Working 	S0 	The system is fully usable. Hardware components
>that are not in use can save power by entering a lower power state.
>
>Googles AI, which I don't trust at all, says "S0 (Active):
>This is the standard working state where the computer is fully
>operational"  which is pretty close to what the pages I do trust say. So
>maybe you have S0 but S0 on win10 is not lower power idle?????   Or
>maybe lower power idle is not as idle as it sounds? 
>
>>This next article gives clear and detailed descriptions of the 
>>various sleep states. That helps in interpreting the output of the 
>>above powercfg command:
>
>Oh, you already have a link to explain it 
>
>>> https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/63346-sleep-states-available-your-windows-10-pc.html
>>
>>Here's that article's explanation of Hybrid Sleep (which powercfg 
>>says I have):
>>
>>"Hybrid sleep, used on desktops, is where a system uses a hibernation 
>>file with S1-S3. The hibernation file saves the system state in case 
>>the system loses power while in sleep."

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#18992

On Fri, 5/2/2025 1:48 AM, micky wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 01 May 2025 14:28:28 -0400, micky
> <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> 
>> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 10:45:08 -0700, Stan Brown
>> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:46:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
>>>>> called "Standby".
>>>>
>>>> Now you have "modern standby"
>>>>
>>>> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>
>>>
>>> Oh lovely. And there's this gem:
>>>
>>> "Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a 
>>> setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is not supported in 
>>> Windows without a complete OS re-install."
>>>
>>> Is there any reasonably straightforward way for to find out whether 
>>> one has S3 or Modern Standby? I think so, from this article:
>>>
>>>> https://www.windowscentral.com/how-determine-power-sleep-states-supported-windows-10
>>>
>>> My TL;DR take: in an admin command prompt, paste this command:
>>>
>>> powercfg /availablesleepstates
>>
>>
>> For my 9 y.o. laptop, built maybe for win8 shows what follows and my
>> desktop shows the same thing, exactly: 
>>
>> The following sleep states are available on this system:
>>    Standby (S3)
>>    Hibernate       -- elsewhere called s4
>>    Hybrid Sleep       **
>>    Fast Startup    -- not the same fast startup as is set in the BIOS.
>> Somehow they used the same words for both. There must be a word
>> shortage.
>>
>> The following sleep states are not available on this system:
>>    Standby (S1)
>>        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>>    Standby (S2)
>>        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>>    Standby (S0 Low Power Idle)
>>        The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>>
>> Below I quote pages that say S0 is standard operation status, but here
>> it says I don't have it. so I must not be operationg. ;-(   With so many
>> possible numbers, did they change the meaning of S0. Maybe there is a
>> number shortage. 
> 
> This is what the "new", 3 or 4 year old, Dell 5010?? laptop runing win
> 11 shows for possible sleep states: 
> 
> PS C:\Users\mmm> powercfg /a
> The following sleep states are available on this system:
>     Standby (S0 Low Power Idle) Network Connected
>     Hibernate
>     Fast Startup
> 
> ---So it doesn't list S3, or Hybrid Sleep, only S0.  So I won't have
> Hybrid Sleep anymore?? ---
> 
> The following sleep states are not available on this system:
>    Standby (S1)
>      The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>      This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
>    Standby (S2)
>      The system firmware does not support this standby state.
>      This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
>    Standby (S3)
>      This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
>    Hybrid Sleep
>          ----- So S1, S2 and S3 are all disabled when S0 is supported. 
>                So S0 must be awfully important.  How come you don't  
>                want it, Stan?  Or is this a different S0? 
>      Standby (S3) is not available. ----- But I want it!!!!!
>   
> 
>>
>> **So if I have available Hybrid Sleep and S3 standby, how come neither
>> is listed in my Shutdown options, only "Sleep".  and is Sleep one of
>> those two, Hybrid Sleep or S3, or maybe it's neither.  Oy. 
>>
>> "With each successive sleep state, from S1 to S4, more of the computer
>> is shut down. All ACPI-compliant computers shut off their processor
>> clocks at S1 and lose system hardware context at S4 (unless a hibernate
>> file is written before shutdown), as listed in the sections below."
>> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/kernel/system-sleeping-states
>> Mine doesn't seem to mention s4, but it turns out that hibernate is s4.
>> suppose because it's 9  years old. 
>>
>>> Modern Standby = "S0 lower-power idle", according to the article, and 
>>> I'm glad to see I don't have it.
>>
>> Why don't you want it? 
>>
>> Anyhow, according to several pages, including the one you list below: 
>> Working 	S0 	The system is fully usable. Hardware components
>> that are not in use can save power by entering a lower power state.
>>
>> Googles AI, which I don't trust at all, says "S0 (Active):
>> This is the standard working state where the computer is fully
>> operational"  which is pretty close to what the pages I do trust say. So
>> maybe you have S0 but S0 on win10 is not lower power idle?????   Or
>> maybe lower power idle is not as idle as it sounds? 
>>
>>> This next article gives clear and detailed descriptions of the 
>>> various sleep states. That helps in interpreting the output of the 
>>> above powercfg command:
>>
>> Oh, you already have a link to explain it 
>>
>>>> https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/63346-sleep-states-available-your-windows-10-pc.html
>>>
>>> Here's that article's explanation of Hybrid Sleep (which powercfg 
>>> says I have):
>>>
>>> "Hybrid sleep, used on desktops, is where a system uses a hibernation 
>>> file with S1-S3. The hibernation file saves the system state in case 
>>> the system loses power while in sleep."

  The following sleep states are not available on this system:
     Standby (S3)
       This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
     Hybrid Sleep
           ----- So S1, S2 and S3 are all disabled when S0 is supported.
                 So S0 must be awfully important.  How come you don't
                 want it, Stan?  Or is this a different S0?
       Standby (S3) is not available. ----- But I want it!!!!!

You have Modern Standby, which saves power in a similar way to S3,
just with some slightly different details. Modern Standby covers
the area from S0 thru S3 inclusive. The machine can choose to use
all its resources (as the S0 end of the scale), or it can be
a miser and only run the RAM sticks, while the CPU is in C12 state.
It does not save exactly as much power as a true S3, but it is
pretty close to that.

S3 Sleep is not a zero-power state. On one of my machines,
S3 draws 7 watts (for eight DIMMs in auto-refresh). If you are
on battery, the machine eventually hits the warning track
for full hibernation, the machine writes to disk and S4 hibernates.
Now, the power is cut (to protect the battery pack from being
over-discharged). If hibernation is disabled, it would go
from Modern Standby to S5 and your session would be lost.

   Paul

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#18954

On Thu, 5/1/2025 2:28 PM, micky wrote:

> Anyhow, according to several pages, including the one you list below: 
> Working 	S0 	The system is fully usable. Hardware components
> that are not in use can save power by entering a lower power state.
> 
> Googles AI, which I don't trust at all, says "S0 (Active):
> This is the standard working state where the computer is fully
> operational"  which is pretty close to what the pages I do trust say. So
> maybe you have S0 but S0 on win10 is not lower power idle?????   Or
> maybe lower power idle is not as idle as it sounds? 

S0 is not a sleep state. That's the "operating" state.

The rest of it, mixes two schemes together, to no particular purpose.

The purpose of states, is to draw state diagrams, and as
a classification mechanism for behaviors. You will notice
there is "air space" between the textual words. This is
meant to imply "something poorly designed is missing", OK ?
We simply expunge the parts we don't understand, to help
people deal with the parts that might have meaning to them.

    Operating        Sleep Hibernate SoftOff  (MechanicalOff)
                                      +5VSB     switched off

The newest idea, doesn't like the states, so it crushes some
together. It can do this, because there are other states
that can be used. C0...C6,C12. Where C12 would be a state where
a processor core has lost all power. To keep a CPU running at
top clock rate, and not taking a break from that top clock
rate, you can turn off the C state handling at the BIOS level.

Even the instrumentation has taken a nose dive. But an
understandable one. If I run CPUZ and check the clock rate,
the clock rate might measure 3.4GHz or 4GHz or so. The
act of measuring the thing, like Heisenburg Uncertainty,
pollutes the reading. CPUZ uses a straightforward measurement
method that more of the CPUs could support. AMD Ryzen Master
uses some instrumentation in the CPU (there are Performance Counters
for all sorts of things, for which the info is thin). The clock
measured there, is likely being measured by a logic block and
does not require spinning up a CPU core to do the math. Then,
the two measurements are at odds with one another.

When equipment has external power consumption (you pull the
battery out of the laptop, forcing it to be honest about
its power usage), even when the equipment lies, the power
consumption does not lie. I can tell when Task Manager is
hiding things. I can watch the LEDs on my IPV4 network,
for evidence of skullduggery. The 1800+ pages of ACPI specs
add nothing to the color commentary any more, due to a
confused set of purposes.

*******

Now, let's check mine. I have removed the garbage from the trace.

PS> powercfg /availablesleepstates
The following sleep states are available on this system:
    Standby (S3)                           <=== That's a deep sleep state with a fast recovery (2-3 seconds)

The following sleep states are not available on this system:

    Hibernate                              <=== This is bashful S4 state
        Hibernation has not been enabled.
PS>

It seems my machine can sleep, but not hibernate. It might
have soft off and it definitely has mechanical off (there is
a mains switch on the back or I can pull the cord out of the wall).

When it is in S0 state, the cores are dancing a jig. If you
look in AMD Ryzen Master, one core is running at 500MHz or so,
the other cores are "C6 or lower". C12 is the lowest state
for the CPU. On the 5700G, this is 32 watts (but some of that power
is for the NVidia card). On the 5600G, this is 22 watts (uses iGPU).

   500   Sleep   Sleep   Sleep   Sleep   Sleep   Sleep   Sleep     # My 5700G right now (Ryzen Master readout)

    C0    <=C6    <=C6    <=C6    <=C6    <=C6    <=C6    <=C6     # Imaginary core states

  [                                                            ]   # Machine is in S0, while CPU cores dance a jig

What was curious about one machine here, is the power consumption
changed with time. When initially built, I got one power figure
at idle. Then one day, the power was cut in half at idle. The
other machines missed this transition and have been consistent
since being built. The machines were built, while debugging
my daily driver (which had some really weird crashes I needed
to understand). The issue is fixed... but leaving me with
an excess of test equipment. That is why I have lots of
data points to offer now.

    Paul

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#18943

On 2/05/2025 3:45 am, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:46:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>> Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>
>>> WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
>>> called "Standby".
>>
>> Now you have "modern standby"
>>
>> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>
> 
> Oh lovely. And there's this gem:
> 
> "Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a
> setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is not supported in
> Windows without a complete OS re-install."

Oh!! Well, at least you don't have to connect to MS and let THEM make 
the change for you on your computer!! Small mercies! ;-)

-- 
Daniel70

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#18871

John,

> WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep
> was called "Standby".

I could not remember those names when I was responding to the OP, and as he 
was struggeling with the concept (and not the setting of them) I didn't 
think it was too important.   I perhaps should not even have mentioned it.

> You could either set the timers in "Power Options" or manually choose
> them from the "Start" "ShutDown" menu.

On my machine I get just three buttons : ""Standby", "Shutdown" an "Reboot". 
Can't remember having ever seen both sleep modi there.

(pet peeve: I've disabled "standby" on my desktop 'puter, but although its 
button is grayed out its, for whatever reason, still there. :-| )

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18906

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 10:51:43 +0200, "R.Wieser"
<address@is.invalid> wrote:

>John,
>
>> WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep
>> was called "Standby".
>
>I could not remember those names when I was responding to the OP, and as he 
>was struggeling with the concept (and not the setting of them) I didn't 
>think it was too important.   I perhaps should not even have mentioned it.
>
>> You could either set the timers in "Power Options" or manually choose
>> them from the "Start" "ShutDown" menu.
>
>On my machine I get just three buttons : ""Standby", "Shutdown" an "Reboot". 
>Can't remember having ever seen both sleep modi there.

You have to enable Hibernate before it shows in the list.  Why it
doesn't come enabled already, I do not know. Yeah, it has to create a
hiberfile.sys (I think it's called), but not until you actually try to
hibernate.  And you might not have space on the harddrive, but if I
enable it when the computer is new, I could run out of space after a
while, and it has to know what to do then anyhow, so I don't see why it
doesnt' come enabled by default. 

Later they created Hybrid Sleep, which is a combination of Hibernate and
Sleep. It saves everything that is in RAM, like Hibernate does, but
doesn't turn off the computer, so if there has been no power failure and
the RAM is still loaded, it starts right up like from regular sleep. And
if there is a power failure, it's like Hibernate.    I don't know if one
has to enable hybrid sleep or not.  I've not done so, and I don't know
which sleep I get when i click on Sleep.. 
>
>(pet peeve: I've disabled "standby" on my desktop 'puter, but although its 
>button is grayed out its, for whatever reason, still there. :-| )
>
>Regards,
>Rudy Wieser
>

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#18872

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 08:28:17 +0200, "R.Wieser"
<address@is.invalid> wrote:

>Micky,
>
>> I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
>> up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt  results
>> from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)
>
>You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch 
>off the monitor" state. 

I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
snipped to "going into sleep".  But I'm  not referring to something it
does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
Sleep.  


>  On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active 
>first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).

Mine does that too, but I"m not counting that. 

>FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your 
>'puter will be in.

Maybe that was the rule at one time, but I'm reporting what happens now,
in win10, and it seems to depend on what window has focus.   For
comparison, the window that has focus determines whether the Mute and
volume buttons work or not.  I haven't kept a list but one example is
that when Task Manager is open, the mute and volume buttons don't work
(at least the 3 keys I have assigned to those duties by Autohotkey).  

>The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter 
>that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of 
>watching a movie or listening to music.  You don't want your 'puter to 
>"switch off" in the middle of it).
>
>By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator 
>lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you, 
>the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.

Let me add that when I click on Windows (what I called Start
before)/Shutdown/Sleep the Acer power-indicator light stays blue for 30
seconds and then switches to flashing red**.    When I tap the space
bar, the light immediately changes to blue and a few seconds later the
screen lights up again.  Perhaps people will say it wasn't really
sleeping, but in every instance I clicked on Sleep.  So maybe that
button is mislabeled.   

**The Acer owners manual doesn't say what the flashing red light should
mean.   

Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post.  That is, this time,
the same thing happened while in Solitaire as in Eudora, Agent, or
Notepad, and mouse movement didn't waken the computer even in Solitaire.
Last night and many prior nights going back weeks or months, and 4 hours
ago, it happened over and over and over that accidentally touching the
mouse would light up the screen, even after clicking on Sleep.  I'll
have to do some more testing or wait until it gets back to the way it's
been for weeks, months. 

None of this was noticeable before I started frequently sleeping in my
desk chair, and wanting to turn off the screen light.  Before then, I
almost never clicked on Sleep.  I just let it time out. 
>
>By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep" 
>sleep.  The former starts faster but uses battery.  The latter starts 
>slower, but needs some disk space.

Yes, I know.   My laptop is plugged in 99.99% of the time. 

>Regards,
>Rudy Wieser
>
John, I've enabled Hibernate, and it's listed in the Shutdown options,
but that's not what I click on. 

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#18899

On 01/05/2025 09:59, micky wrote:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 08:28:17 +0200, "R.Wieser"
> <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Micky,
>>
>>> I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
>>> up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt  results
>>> from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)
>>
>> You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch
>> off the monitor" state.
> 
> I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
> but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
> snipped to "going into sleep".  But I'm  not referring to something it
> does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
> clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
> be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
> Sleep.
> 
> 
>>   On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active
>> first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).
> 
> Mine does that too, but I"m not counting that.
> 
>> FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your
>> 'puter will be in.
> 
> Maybe that was the rule at one time, but I'm reporting what happens now,
> in win10, and it seems to depend on what window has focus.   For
> comparison, the window that has focus determines whether the Mute and
> volume buttons work or not.  I haven't kept a list but one example is
> that when Task Manager is open, the mute and volume buttons don't work
> (at least the 3 keys I have assigned to those duties by Autohotkey).
> 
>> The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter
>> that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of
>> watching a movie or listening to music.  You don't want your 'puter to
>> "switch off" in the middle of it).
>>
>> By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator
>> lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you,
>> the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.
> 
> Let me add that when I click on Windows (what I called Start
> before)/Shutdown/Sleep the Acer power-indicator light stays blue for 30
> seconds and then switches to flashing red**.    When I tap the space
> bar, the light immediately changes to blue and a few seconds later the
> screen lights up again.  Perhaps people will say it wasn't really
> sleeping, but in every instance I clicked on Sleep.  So maybe that
> button is mislabeled.
> 
> **The Acer owners manual doesn't say what the flashing red light should
> mean.
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
> results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post.  That is, this time,
> the same thing happened while in Solitaire as in Eudora, Agent, or
> Notepad, and mouse movement didn't waken the computer even in Solitaire.
> Last night and many prior nights going back weeks or months, and 4 hours
> ago, it happened over and over and over that accidentally touching the
> mouse would light up the screen, even after clicking on Sleep.  I'll
> have to do some more testing or wait until it gets back to the way it's
> been for weeks, months.
> 
> None of this was noticeable before I started frequently sleeping in my
> desk chair, and wanting to turn off the screen light.  Before then, I
> almost never clicked on Sleep.  I just let it time out.
>>
>> By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep"
>> sleep.  The former starts faster but uses battery.  The latter starts
>> slower, but needs some disk space.
> 
> Yes, I know.   My laptop is plugged in 99.99% of the time.
> 
>> Regards,
>> Rudy Wieser
>>
> John, I've enabled Hibernate, and it's listed in the Shutdown options,
> but that's not what I click on.

Presumably various settings including security and perhaps the BIOS have 
an effect.

Using Shut down, Sleep with my Acer Win 11 laptop blanks the screen but 
leaves the blue running diode on. A key press or mouse click has no 
effect regardless of whether or not any program is running. Restarting 
requires pressing the on/off key and entering a PIN as usual.

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#18912

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 16:30:33 +0100, MikeS
<mikes@is.invalid> wrote:

>
>>>
>> John, I've enabled Hibernate, and it's listed in the Shutdown options,
>> but that's not what I click on.
>
>Presumably various settings including security and perhaps the BIOS have 
>an effect.
>
>Using Shut down, Sleep with my Acer Win 11 laptop blanks the screen but 
>leaves the blue running diode on. A key press or mouse click has no 
>effect regardless of whether or not any program is running. Restarting 
>requires pressing the on/off key and entering a PIN as usual.

On rare occasions I've had to press the on/off button, but I don't
remember what the circumstances are that requires that.   I should keep
a log. 

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#18900

Micky,

> I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing
> out, but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that
> you snipped to "going into sleep".

I re-read your post and see I indeed missed you saying you used start/sleep. 
My apologies.

Also, it seems my standby/hibernate knowledge is a bit dated (and there are 
more than just two modi)

> Let me add that when I click on Windows (what I called Start
> before)/Shutdown/Sleep the Acer power-indicator light stays blue for
> 30 seconds and then switches to flashing red**.    When I tap the
> space bar, the light immediately changes to blue and a few seconds
> later the screen lights up again.  Perhaps people will say it wasn't
> really sleeping, but in every instance I clicked on Sleep.  So maybe
> that button is mislabeled.

That flashing red does seem to be a strong indication that your 'puter has 
indeed (some kind of) sleep mode.

> Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
> results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post.

Don't be.  It speak for you that you decided to re-check your facts.  It 
doesn't mean your previous data was false, just that either something else 
is happening too, or something has changed in the mean time.

(I'm not going to tell you that, when I had a problem and wanted to post 
about it and tried to re-create the problem to get my information correct, I 
could not reproduce it either. :-) )

But with the info from you and others here I'm afraid I'm currently outof 
ideas.

I hope you find someone who knows.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#18911

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 17:35:58 +0200, "R.Wieser"
<address@is.invalid> wrote:

>
>> Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
>> results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post.
>
>Don't be.  It speak for you that you decided to re-check your facts.  It 

Very nice of you.  It's pretty amazing that the problem fixed itself
within 4 hours of my complaining.   But it may show up again, next time
I want to sleep myself.  

>doesn't mean your previous data was false, just that either something else 
>is happening too, or something has changed in the mean time.
>
>(I'm not going to tell you that, when I had a problem and wanted to post 
>about it and tried to re-create the problem to get my information correct, I 
>could not reproduce it either. :-) )
>
>But with the info from you and others here I'm afraid I'm currently outof 
>ideas.
>
>I hope you find someone who knows.

Thank you.  I like the way it's working now and soon I plan to be using
a newer win11 laptop. I haven't tested it's sleeping habits yet. 

>Regards,

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#18901

On 5/1/2025 4:59 AM, micky wrote:

> I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
> but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
> snipped to "going into sleep".  But I'm  not referring to something it
> does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
> clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
> be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
> Sleep.
> 

    Go into device manager, select the mouse, look for power
management tab. Go into that and deselect the option to
wake from sleep. Use only the keyboard.

   If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

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#18908

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 11:51:43 -0400, Newyana2
<newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>On 5/1/2025 4:59 AM, micky wrote:
>
>> I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
>> but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
>> snipped to "going into sleep".  But I'm  not referring to something it
>> does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
>> clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
>> be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
>> Sleep.
>> 
>
>    Go into device manager, select the mouse, look for power
>management tab. Go into that and deselect the option to
>wake from sleep. Use only the keyboard.

I asked about this maybe a year ago and someone here, maybe even you,
told me to do this.  Of my two computers in use at the time, and the 3
mice or touchpads, only two had a power management tab. 

I have reminded myself which ones they are, and 
  The desktop with win10 PRO has that tab. 
  The laptop with win10 HOME has that tab for the external mouse, but
not for for the built-in mouse. (I wonder if the tab would appear if
there were no external mouse!)   ----  But a year ago, if it was
checked, I unchecked. "Allow the device to wake the computer" (and it's
still unchecked).  I think I later checked it, saved it, and unchecked
and saved it, just in case it wasnt' really unchecked, but that changed
nothing.  And the mouse would still wake the computer, when I pressed a
button or even just moving the mouse.

That was true until sometime between 1 and 5 this morning, eastern time,
but now the mouse won't wake the computer.  Apparently it took a year
for the change you suggested to take effect. 


BTW, in Device Manager, the external mouse is listed first.  That
surprises me. 

>   If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
>computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
>current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
>I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
>select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

Wow.  So you are using the PS2 port on the PC, and a USB keyboard with a
PS2 adapter on it so  you can plug it into the PS2 port, right? 

(I actually still have some PS2 keyboards, but the laptop, the current
problem, has no PS2 port.   :-(    )

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