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Groups > alt.comp.os.windows-10 > #181294 > unrolled thread

Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs

Started byLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
First post2025-01-12 23:23 +0000
Last post2025-01-16 11:35 -0500
Articles 20 on this page of 102 — 23 participants

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  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-12 23:23 +0000
    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> - 2025-01-13 21:25 +0000
      Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-13 16:32 -0500
        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-01-13 17:44 -0500
          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-13 17:54 -0500
            Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-01-13 18:10 -0500
              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-13 18:25 -0500
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-13 17:52 -0600
                  Cult of Unix (was: Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-01-15 00:30 +0000
                    Re: Cult of Unix Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-14 20:05 -0600
                      Re: Cult of Unix Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-15 03:16 -0500
                      Re: Cult of Unix vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-01-15 09:02 +0000
                      Re: Cult of Unix ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ  <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2025-01-15 11:10 -0700
                      Re: Cult of Unix Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-16 05:03 +0000
                        Re: 🏳️‍🌈Cult of Unix🏳️‍🌈 🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈Jen🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 Dershmender 💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🐶笛🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 <root@127.0.0.1>  - 2025-01-16 05:28 +0000
                        Re: Cult of Unix Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-16 10:34 -0500
                          Re: Cult of Unix vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-01-16 16:04 +0000
                            Re: Cult of Unix Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-16 14:48 -0600
                              Re: Cult of Unix Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-16 18:06 -0500
                                Re: Cult of Unix Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-17 02:49 +0000
                                  Re: Cult of Unix vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-01-17 03:51 +0000
                                    Re: Cult of Unix Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-17 02:10 -0500
                                      Re: Cult of Unix Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-17 23:55 +0000
                                        Re: Cult of Unix Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-17 20:53 -0500
                                          Re: Cult of Unix Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-19 00:54 +0000
                                    Re: Cult of Unix Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-17 16:46 +0000
                                      Re: Cult of Unix Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-17 23:56 +0000
                                        Re: Cult of Unix Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-17 20:54 -0500
                                          Re: Cult of Unix Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-19 00:55 +0000
                                            Re: Cult of Unix Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-18 20:01 -0500
                          Re: Cult of Unix Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-17 00:10 +0000
                    Re: 🏳️‍🌈Cult of Unix (was: Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs)🏳️‍🌈 🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈Jen🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 Dershmender 💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🐶笛🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 <root@127.0.0.1>  - 2025-01-15 05:24 +0000
                      Setting up old-style backup on Windows 11 (was: Re: Cult of Unix) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-01-15 08:38 +0000
                        Re: 🏳️‍🌈Setting up old-style backup on Windows 11 (was: Re: Cult of Unix)🏳️‍🌈 🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈Jen🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 Dershmender 💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🐶笛🌈💐🌻🌺🌹🌻💐🌷🌺🌈 <root@127.0.0.1>  - 2025-01-15 17:22 +0000
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-01-13 21:44 -0500
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-14 03:09 +0000
                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-15 06:56 +0000
                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-15 02:52 -0500
                      Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-17 00:11 +0000
                        Defragging (was: Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-01-17 03:45 +0000
                          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-17 23:10 +0000
                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-15 10:40 -0500
                      Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-01-15 23:14 +0000
                        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-15 20:15 -0500
                          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-01-16 01:29 +0000
              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-14 12:46 -0500
              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-15 13:51 +0100
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-15 09:58 -0500
                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-15 16:20 +0100
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-01-15 23:20 +0000
                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-16 15:36 +0100
                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-01-17 00:12 +0000
              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-15 18:09 +0000
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-16 15:47 +0100
          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-14 05:48 +0000
        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-13 16:48 -0600
          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-01-13 23:54 +0000
        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-15 11:33 +0000
          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-15 10:46 -0500
            Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-15 11:33 -0500
              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-01-15 17:02 +0000
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-16 05:40 +0000
                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-16 06:27 -0500
                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-27 22:49 +0000
              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-15 14:32 -0500
                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-15 15:52 -0500
                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-15 20:34 -0500
                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 00:41 -0600
                      Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-16 06:42 -0500
                        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 14:40 -0600
                          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-16 16:34 -0500
                            Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 16:56 -0600
                              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-16 22:40 -0500
                                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-17 02:04 -0600
                                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-17 07:34 -0600
                                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs roger <rduffy@hotmail.com.invalid - 2025-01-17 14:01 -0600
                                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-17 15:57 -0500
                                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-17 16:50 -0600
                                      Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-17 21:52 -0500
                          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-01-16 21:38 +0000
                          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 15:44 -0600
                            Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 15:51 -0600
                            Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 16:11 -0600
                          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Farley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux> - 2025-01-17 13:03 +0000
                            Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-17 16:00 -0600
                              Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-01-17 23:15 +0000
                                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-17 18:10 -0600
                                Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2025-01-17 18:13 -0600
                    Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-16 06:22 -0500
                      Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-16 12:10 -0500
                        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-16 12:28 -0600
                          Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-01-17 00:27 +0000
                            Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-16 23:47 -0500
                          Gaming Laptops (was: Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-02-01 12:58 +0000
                            Re: Gaming Laptops Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-01 19:22 -0500
                              Re: Gaming Laptops chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-02-02 08:05 -0600
                                Re: Gaming Laptops candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-02-03 20:10 +0000
                                  Re: Gaming Laptops Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-02-03 19:24 -0500
                                    Re: Gaming Laptops pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-02-04 00:45 +0000
                        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-01-16 18:45 +0000
                        Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-01-16 16:05 -0500
                  Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 11:35 -0500

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#181445

FromPhysfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com>
Date2025-01-16 15:44 -0600
Message-ID<vmbuk8$2796$1@solani.org>
In reply to#181437
On 1/16/25 2:40 PM, Physfitfreak wrote:
> I don't need a $5000 computer for any reason under the sky, not even a 
> $500 computer. Those who need them must want to do a Jupiter flyby :)


Here, this will help you do a Jupiter flyby.

Go to the site and click on play button.

https://thiazitch.bandcamp.com/track/-

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#181447

FromPhysfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com>
Date2025-01-16 15:51 -0600
Message-ID<vmbv0i$2796$2@solani.org>
In reply to#181445
On 1/16/25 3:44 PM, Physfitfreak wrote:
> On 1/16/25 2:40 PM, Physfitfreak wrote:
>> I don't need a $5000 computer for any reason under the sky, not even a 
>> $500 computer. Those who need them must want to do a Jupiter flyby :)
> 
> 
> Here, this will help you do a Jupiter flyby.
> 
> Go to the site and click on play button.
> 
> https://thiazitch.bandcamp.com/track/-


This one is what Relf and his super special computer is riding on right 
now. Join him. It will go past the edge of the Solar system.

https://thiazitch.bandcamp.com/track/--5


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#181450

FromPhysfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com>
Date2025-01-16 16:11 -0600
Message-ID<vmc06h$2796$3@solani.org>
In reply to#181445
On 1/16/25 3:44 PM, Physfitfreak wrote:
> On 1/16/25 2:40 PM, Physfitfreak wrote:
>> I don't need a $5000 computer for any reason under the sky, not even a 
>> $500 computer. Those who need them must want to do a Jupiter flyby :)
> 
> 
> Here, this will help you do a Jupiter flyby.
> 
> Go to the site and click on play button.
> 
> https://thiazitch.bandcamp.com/track/-

Don't forget to place that "/-" at the end of your link cause the link I 
provided omits the dash.

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#181488

FromFarley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux>
Date2025-01-17 13:03 +0000
Message-ID<181b7c8448ff869b$112086$292657$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>
In reply to#181437
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 14:40:22 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> I wrote programs on them that I'm still using today! 
> For one, a calendar conversion program I wrote handled conversions 
> between Iranian lunar, Iranian solar, the Gregorian and before that the 
> Julian solar dates nicely. Maximum error just one day! And you could go 
> back in time even to the days of Darius if you insisted, cause I also 
> took into account the precession of the Earth's rotational axis. I know 
> of no calendar inversion software (accessible to public) that does that. 
> They'll get even the season wrong if you go back that far, let alone the 
> day.
> 

I believe that Julian Dates (JD) are used for this purpose.  The JD
is a count of the number of days since January 1, 4713 BCE.

The next step would be to convert the JD to a particular solar or
lunar calendar.

GNU/Linux has complete JD facilities.

I am not sure how the GNU/Linux "cal" command would handle historic
dates before the Julian calendar, which was introduced in 45 BCE. 
But I am investigating this issue now because it is, to me, a very
interesting one.

I do know that cal can handle accurately dates during that bizarre
period of Julian-to-Gregorian transition.




-- 
Hail Linux!  Hail FOSS!  Hail Stallman!

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#181501

FromPhysfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com>
Date2025-01-17 16:00 -0600
Message-ID<vmejuo$3thv$1@solani.org>
In reply to#181488
On 1/17/25 7:03 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
> I believe that Julian Dates (JD) are used for this purpose.  The JD
> is a count of the number of days since January 1, 4713 BCE.


Even if you accurately count the number of days past since, say, the day 
with date 1/17/1700, it won't mean you have all the information about 
that day's correct location in that year; because, Earth's tilted axis 
of rotation is not along a fixed direction. The axis wobbles, or 
"precesses" all the time. So a historian who wrote down the date as 
1/17/1700 on that day, will slightly be in a different time of the year 
compared to the present day's 1/17/2025.

As long as the difference falls below one day, this is not that 
important. But if you go back farther in time to Darius's era, this 
difference places you in a different season of the year. A historian who 
according to your calculations would've written down the date 1/17/-1500 
in his notes, was not on the January 17th of that year! He was in 
another season of that year. Therefore your calculated result of 
1/17/-1500 is meaningless.

This may look a rather simple astronomy problem, but when you want to 
program it, it gets tough sometimes. And there are options to take to 
correct the discrepancies. I took the option of modifying the length of 
a day just enough to take care of precession of the axis of rotation of 
Earth, as well as of course its orbiting around the sun (which by itself 
introduces one day of discrepancy per year.)



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#181505

FromFarley Flud <ff@linux.rocks>
Date2025-01-17 23:15 +0000
Message-ID<pan$30e4b$699288c$d0c4f050$a425aa71@linux.rocks>
In reply to#181501
On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:00:55 -0600, Physfitfreak wrote:

> 
> Even if you accurately count the number of days past since, say, the day 
> with date 1/17/1700, it won't mean you have all the information about 
> that day's correct location in that year; because, Earth's tilted axis 
> of rotation is not along a fixed direction. The axis wobbles, or 
> "precesses" all the time. So a historian who wrote down the date as 
> 1/17/1700 on that day, will slightly be in a different time of the year 
> compared to the present day's 1/17/2025.
> 
> As long as the difference falls below one day, this is not that 
> important. But if you go back farther in time to Darius's era, this 
> difference places you in a different season of the year. A historian who 
> according to your calculations would've written down the date 1/17/-1500 
> in his notes, was not on the January 17th of that year! He was in 
> another season of that year. Therefore your calculated result of 
> 1/17/-1500 is meaningless.
> 
> This may look a rather simple astronomy problem, but when you want to 
> program it, it gets tough sometimes. And there are options to take to 
> correct the discrepancies. I took the option of modifying the length of 
> a day just enough to take care of precession of the axis of rotation of 
> Earth, as well as of course its orbiting around the sun (which by itself 
> introduces one day of discrepancy per year.)
>

I understand what you are saying, but, unfortunately, I am not well
versed in astronomical calculations and thus I cannot competently
respond to your comments.

However, I do suspect that the problem of accurately rectifying Julian
dates to various solar/lunar calendars has been solved long ago.

We need input from the GNU/Linux "experts" on this NG but I believe
that the "experts" are only a bunch of fat-chewing ignoramuses that
cannot distinguish their asses from a hole in the ground.



-- 
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

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#181511

FromPhysfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com>
Date2025-01-17 18:10 -0600
Message-ID<vmerhu$aa0e$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181505
On 1/17/25 5:15 PM, Farley Flud wrote:
> owever, I do suspect that the problem of accurately rectifying Julian
> dates to various solar/lunar calendars has been solved long ago.


Of course. It's just that instead of sitting down and doing a back of 
the envelop calculation to convert dates every time I encountered a lazy 
ass author who would use lunar and solar dates in the same article, 
confusing the heck out of readers, I decided to program the calculations 
once and for all. When I wrote the calendar program no such software 
accessible to people in general existed to do that. Years later some 
Arab wrote the "Hdate" program and provided it free to public, but It 
could not go back as far as I would need, and it only converted to and 
from Iranian solar and Islamic lunar calendars (if I remember it 
correctly). For something like a few decades after that I could not 
still find one suitable enough for me, and kept using my own program.

And now I'm here, still using it :) I'm not sure anymore cause I've not 
checked it out recently, that there is or there isn't a calendar 
converter as good as my own, that's available free to public.

Mine has minimal user interface of course. It is very utilitarian. Uses 
the same screen that you see in DOS.

I have two versions of it. One that runs on Windows, and one that only 
runs on DOS. Once I asked Relf how that was possible. He didn't, or 
couldn't, answer it.

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#181512

FromPhysfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com>
Date2025-01-17 18:13 -0600
Message-ID<vmermd$aa0e$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181505
On 1/17/25 5:15 PM, Farley Flud wrote:
> We need input from the GNU/Linux "experts" on this NG but I believe
> that the "experts" are only a bunch of fat-chewing ignoramuses that
> cannot distinguish their asses from a hole in the ground.


If there is any experts in this forum and they're not answering, they're 
either cro-magnon or immature.

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#181406

From-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com>
Date2025-01-16 06:22 -0500
Message-ID<vmaq5q$3fd0d$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181398
On 1/15/25 8:34 PM, Paul wrote:
> On Wed, 1/15/2025 3:52 PM, -hh wrote:
>> ...
>> But do feel free to provide a detailed cost list.
>>
>> Because even the $100 you spent on the video card is 
>> subtracted off too, your $850 spent is still higher 
>> than $600, but now its only by +30%.
>
> 
> But you have control of your expenses.

And freedom to make mistakes which can cost you more.

> It all depends on your objectives and budget.
> An upgrade could be $500 or it could be $2000. 
>> If you build your own computers, you can reuse
> PSU, computer case (my daily driver case is 25 years old),
> keyboard, mouse, and so on. My daily driver case, I think
> that's about the fourth motherboard.

Sure, there can be reuse, but with laptops now 80% of the PC market, 
this use case is increasingly niche.

And in the 'mistakes' lane, over-reliance on recycling old stuff can 
gimp a system, which undermines the value of the upgrade effort.

Plus some costs aren't all that significant to worry too much about. 
For example, if one wants to keep the old build running in parallel with 
the new, then having a case & PSU for each is inexpensive and makes it 
quite convenient... but that choice reduces the cost savings.

> The trick to hitting points like this, is to look
> at trailing-edge parts. When the kids are buying DDR5
> systems, you buy a DDR4 system. As long as the market
> has some legs, a few reduced-cost motherboards will be
> issued in a second wave (intended to "mop up" the
> old processors), offering a small savings. The RAM can
> be cheaper to quite a lot cheaper, than the current generation
> RAM (DDR5).

Sure, and the same "state of the shelf" sweet spot applies when shopping 
for a complete system too.

> The enthusiast sites have more info, if you need it.

Of course.  Overall, a challenge with the DIY topic is differences in 
motivation:  is the DIY because money's tight?  Or is the motivation 
because tinkering with hardware is an entertaining hobby/pastime?
Both motivations can & do exist, and can get conflated in discussions.


-hh

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#181429

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2025-01-16 12:10 -0500
Message-ID<vmbeia$3jepl$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181406
On Thu, 1/16/2025 6:22 AM, -hh wrote:

> 
> Of course.  Overall, a challenge with the DIY topic is differences in motivation:  is the DIY because money's tight?  Or is the motivation because tinkering with hardware is an entertaining hobby/pastime?
> Both motivations can & do exist, and can get conflated in discussions.

The motivation, is we don't want to buy shit.

Do I want a Dell with a four phase VCore, when
I can have a twenty four phase VCore on an
expensive motherboard ?

Do I want a 230W power supply on a Dell, when
I can pick up an 850W power supply at Best Buy ?
Now, I can plug in an RTX4090 when I want to.
On the Dell, that's... impossible (even if you
went out and bought the 850W supply, it probably
would not fit in the small Dell case, neither would
the Dell cooling system be adequate for the thermal
load and there wouldn't even be a mounting location
for a fan to be added).

When you do a build, you control everything, and
no screwing around or taking shortcuts.

Let's take an example, Mr.LaptopMan. Take the lady
in the computer store the other day, a salesman
explaining to her that "the laptop with the 4070
is faster than the laptop with the 4060" for gaming.
Well, what the salesman didn't tell the gaming lady,
is that the owner will beat the piss out of the laptop
and it will be knackered after only four years. While you
are having a gaming experience, it won't last.

Whereas, with a desktop, if I wear the keycaps off my
keyboard playing Tetris, I just swap keyboards, takes
about ten seconds. If the video cards burns the
connector off, chuck it on the table, pop in another.

And if I want four NVMe storage, I can pop in a board
with four sleds on it, and boom, done.

With this, I could install twenty four NVMe on six cards.

"Asus Pro WS W790E-SAGE SE"

   https://dlcdnwebimgs.asus.com/gain/f8c9b3f4-1a07-4645-aa79-594c48bd4090/w692

(Note desktop I/O style on the left)

   https://dlcdnwebimgs.asus.com/files/media/35d86ad4-c99a-49d7-b8bb-09601ad49164/images/swiper_left.png

Same idea with an AMD processor. For a while, only Lenovo made
materials of this class, but now you can build them at home.

   https://shop.asus.com/ca-en/90mb1fw0-m0aay0-pro-ws-wrx90e-sage-se.html

You're in control of the build. If something breaks,
you're in control of the repair too. No returning a unit
three times, hearing "no fault found", haranguing tech
support for a replacement machine and so on. Think of
the hair loss saved.

I don't want to use anyones "warranty service".

   [Picture]

    https://i.postimg.cc/ry0VWG7J/home-build-what-you-want.gif

   Paul

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#181432

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2025-01-16 12:28 -0600
Message-ID<fdjiojt0fj9ft4plm2eu47itkdsi21mdcl@4ax.com>
In reply to#181429
Paul wrote:

> -hh wrote:
>> 
>> Of course.  Overall, a challenge with the DIY topic is differences in motivation:  
>> is the DIY because money's tight?  Or is the motivation because tinkering with 
>> hardware is an entertaining hobby/pastime?
>> Both motivations can & do exist, and can get conflated in discussions.
>
>The motivation, is we don't want to buy shit.
>
>Do I want a Dell with a four phase VCore, when
>I can have a twenty four phase VCore on an
>expensive motherboard ?
>
>Do I want a 230W power supply on a Dell, when
>I can pick up an 850W power supply at Best Buy ?
>Now, I can plug in an RTX4090 when I want to.
>On the Dell, that's... impossible (even if you
>went out and bought the 850W supply, it probably
>would not fit in the small Dell case, neither would
>the Dell cooling system be adequate for the thermal
>load and there wouldn't even be a mounting location
>for a fan to be added).

Yeah the non-standard components in Dells and HPs are a real turn-off,
for those of us who are brave enough to open our PC cases.

>When you do a build, you control everything, and
>no screwing around or taking shortcuts.

I think us DIY guys tend to overspend and overbuild our systems.  So
we don't save any money, but they are better-built.

>Well, what the salesman didn't tell the gaming lady,
>is that the owner will beat the piss out of the laptop
>and it will be knackered after only four years. While you
>are having a gaming experience, it won't last.

Gaming laptops are the worst.  Hot running, loud, expensive, fragile.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#181464

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-01-17 00:27 +0000
Message-ID<lutmerF1tatU3@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#181432
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 12:28:47 -0600, chrisv wrote:

> I think us DIY guys tend to overspend and overbuild our systems.  So we
> don't save any money, but they are better-built.

I keep looking at the Antec Sonata case gathering dust and think I should 
do something with it. The case is probably as obsolete as whatever is in 
it. It does have an upgraded PS since the heavily hyped Antec PS was one 
of a batch with a high failure rate.

Then reality sets in. What would I do with it? I'm not a gamer. That 
reality set in when the video card failed and all I could find in the 
local shops were Hyper-Phaze Mark 7 Dual Thrusters that were about $200 
more than I was going to pay for a generic card.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#181477

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2025-01-16 23:47 -0500
Message-ID<vmcndb$3tjhj$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181464
On Thu, 1/16/2025 7:27 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 12:28:47 -0600, chrisv wrote:
> 
>> I think us DIY guys tend to overspend and overbuild our systems.  So we
>> don't save any money, but they are better-built.
> 
> I keep looking at the Antec Sonata case gathering dust and think I should 
> do something with it. The case is probably as obsolete as whatever is in 
> it. It does have an upgraded PS since the heavily hyped Antec PS was one 
> of a batch with a high failure rate.
> 
> Then reality sets in. What would I do with it? I'm not a gamer. That 
> reality set in when the video card failed and all I could find in the 
> local shops were Hyper-Phaze Mark 7 Dual Thrusters that were about $200 
> more than I was going to pay for a generic card.
> 

That's a fine case. I own two of them. One of them seems to be older
than the other, and the older one has weird slots for the addin cards.
You can't add a two-slot wide video card, because a "bump" on the inside
side of the case, conflicts with the two-slot-wide flat faceplate on the video card.

But other than that, it has the excellent trays system. One generation
of trays has black rubber cushions (not very thick), and the later one
is silicone rubber and a bit thicker.

The holes in the tray support legacy drives (like up to 6TB in capacity).
The Helium drives (up to 24TB) have the holes in a different place. One
guy on the Internet, used his 3D printer to make an Antec compatible tray
with the holes in the correct place for the Helium drives. But I don't have
any of those, so the 6TB is about the largest drive I can use in that PC
(without using the inconvenient 5.25" bays in the top front).

The Test Machine (ten years old), the trays have been sliding in and out
of that thing for ten years. The SATA cables see a lot of use.

I would not throw the Antec away. If anything, put it up on Ebay (with trays)
and sell it to someone who likes those.

For those who don't know about the trays, they slide out towards you,
and compared to the hell of mounting drives in 5.25" bays, they are
a dream to use. You still use four screws to fit the tray to the
drive, but that's not hard to do, and I keep a Philips head screwdriver
on the desk, to change drives.

Don't use the USB2 ports on the Sonata case, because the wiring is
a bit off on those. Antec didn't seem to have someone with an electrical
background, to verify their front panel connectors. Buzz out the wiring on
the assembly, and see if you can spot the swap. Fortunately, they
never reversed VCC and GND on their wiring, so there were no "fireworks".

   Paul

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#181855 — Gaming Laptops (was: Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs)

Fromvallor <vallor@cultnix.org>
Date2025-02-01 12:58 +0000
SubjectGaming Laptops (was: Re: Microsoft to force new Outlook on Windows 10 PCs)
Message-ID<m06k2qFj9dpU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#181432
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 12:28:47 -0600, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote
in <fdjiojt0fj9ft4plm2eu47itkdsi21mdcl@4ax.com>:

> Paul wrote:
> 
>> -hh wrote:
>>> 
>>> Of course.  Overall, a challenge with the DIY topic is differences in
>>> motivation:
>>> is the DIY because money's tight?  Or is the motivation because
>>> tinkering with hardware is an entertaining hobby/pastime?
>>> Both motivations can & do exist, and can get conflated in discussions.
>>
>>The motivation, is we don't want to buy shit.
>>
>>Do I want a Dell with a four phase VCore, when I can have a twenty four
>>phase VCore on an expensive motherboard ?
>>
>>Do I want a 230W power supply on a Dell, when I can pick up an 850W
>>power supply at Best Buy ?
>>Now, I can plug in an RTX4090 when I want to.
>>On the Dell, that's... impossible (even if you went out and bought the
>>850W supply, it probably would not fit in the small Dell case, neither
>>would the Dell cooling system be adequate for the thermal load and there
>>wouldn't even be a mounting location for a fan to be added).
> 
> Yeah the non-standard components in Dells and HPs are a real turn-off,
> for those of us who are brave enough to open our PC cases.
> 
>>When you do a build, you control everything, and no screwing around or
>>taking shortcuts.
> 
> I think us DIY guys tend to overspend and overbuild our systems.  So we
> don't save any money, but they are better-built.
> 
>>Well, what the salesman didn't tell the gaming lady,
>>is that the owner will beat the piss out of the laptop and it will be
>>knackered after only four years. While you are having a gaming
>>experience, it won't last.
> 
> Gaming laptops are the worst.  Hot running, loud, expensive, fragile.

There are exceptions to every rule.  In that regard: ASUS tufbooks
are tough.

After updating it to Linux Mint 22.1, and while looking at the output
of lspci(8), discovered this:

0000:00:08.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation 12th Gen Core Processor 
Gaussian & Neural Accelerator (rev 02)

There's an out-of-tree driver Linux driver for it, and apparently Intel
is working to get it into the Linux kernel.

Having said that, can't imagine why I'd use it.  (I guess perhaps Windows
Copilot might use it, but I'll defer to others regarding whether or not
that is the case.)

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
   OS: Linux 6.13.0 Release: Mint 22.1 Mem: 258G
   "Sign on a clothing store - Come inside and have a fit."

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#181876 — Re: Gaming Laptops

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2025-02-01 19:22 -0500
SubjectRe: Gaming Laptops
Message-ID<vnmdsp$biin$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181855
On Sat, 2/1/2025 7:58 AM, vallor wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 12:28:47 -0600, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote
> in <fdjiojt0fj9ft4plm2eu47itkdsi21mdcl@4ax.com>:
> 
>> Paul wrote:
>>
>>> -hh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Of course.  Overall, a challenge with the DIY topic is differences in
>>>> motivation:
>>>> is the DIY because money's tight?  Or is the motivation because
>>>> tinkering with hardware is an entertaining hobby/pastime?
>>>> Both motivations can & do exist, and can get conflated in discussions.
>>>
>>> The motivation, is we don't want to buy shit.
>>>
>>> Do I want a Dell with a four phase VCore, when I can have a twenty four
>>> phase VCore on an expensive motherboard ?
>>>
>>> Do I want a 230W power supply on a Dell, when I can pick up an 850W
>>> power supply at Best Buy ?
>>> Now, I can plug in an RTX4090 when I want to.
>>> On the Dell, that's... impossible (even if you went out and bought the
>>> 850W supply, it probably would not fit in the small Dell case, neither
>>> would the Dell cooling system be adequate for the thermal load and there
>>> wouldn't even be a mounting location for a fan to be added).
>>
>> Yeah the non-standard components in Dells and HPs are a real turn-off,
>> for those of us who are brave enough to open our PC cases.
>>
>>> When you do a build, you control everything, and no screwing around or
>>> taking shortcuts.
>>
>> I think us DIY guys tend to overspend and overbuild our systems.  So we
>> don't save any money, but they are better-built.
>>
>>> Well, what the salesman didn't tell the gaming lady,
>>> is that the owner will beat the piss out of the laptop and it will be
>>> knackered after only four years. While you are having a gaming
>>> experience, it won't last.
>>
>> Gaming laptops are the worst.  Hot running, loud, expensive, fragile.
> 
> There are exceptions to every rule.  In that regard: ASUS tufbooks
> are tough.
> 
> After updating it to Linux Mint 22.1, and while looking at the output
> of lspci(8), discovered this:
> 
> 0000:00:08.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation 12th Gen Core Processor 
> Gaussian & Neural Accelerator (rev 02)
> 
> There's an out-of-tree driver Linux driver for it, and apparently Intel
> is working to get it into the Linux kernel.
> 
> Having said that, can't imagine why I'd use it.  (I guess perhaps Windows
> Copilot might use it, but I'll defer to others regarding whether or not
> that is the case.)
> 

Your guess is as good as any.

https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software-development-platforms/client/platforms/alder-lake-desktop/12th-generation-intel-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/003/intel-gmm-and-neural-network-accelerator/

Even the person making a URL for the article, was running out of letters.

In a strange twist of fate, it's being used as a Direct Render Manager "thingy".
No resource goes wasted, I would guess.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Intel-GNA-To-DRM-Driver

   Paul

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#181890 — Re: Gaming Laptops

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2025-02-02 08:05 -0600
SubjectRe: Gaming Laptops
Message-ID<tiuupjp1p0k2569aacau6e4alabj5h431k@4ax.com>
In reply to#181876
Paul wrote:

> vallor wrote:
>> 
>> After updating it to Linux Mint 22.1, and while looking at the output
>> of lspci(8), discovered this:
>> 
>> 0000:00:08.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation 12th Gen Core Processor 
>> Gaussian & Neural Accelerator (rev 02)
>> 
>> There's an out-of-tree driver Linux driver for it, and apparently Intel
>> is working to get it into the Linux kernel.
>> 
>> Having said that, can't imagine why I'd use it.  (I guess perhaps Windows
>> Copilot might use it, but I'll defer to others regarding whether or not
>> that is the case.)
>
>Your guess is as good as any.
>
>https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software-development-platforms/client/platforms/alder-lake-desktop/12th-generation-intel-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/003/intel-gmm-and-neural-network-accelerator/
>
>Even the person making a URL for the article, was running out of letters.

Interesting.  I hadn't even heard of this GNA thingy before.

>In a strange twist of fate, it's being used as a Direct Render Manager "thingy".
>No resource goes wasted, I would guess.
>
>https://www.phoronix.com/news/Intel-GNA-To-DRM-Driver

The article notes that Linux does not yet have a dedicated AI
accelerator subsystem.  I wonder when that's coming, and if we should
be afraid.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#181932 — Re: Gaming Laptops

Fromcandycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
Date2025-02-03 20:10 +0000
SubjectRe: Gaming Laptops
Message-ID<slrnvq28fn.3finp.candycanearter07@candydeb.host.invalid>
In reply to#181890
chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote at 14:05 this Sunday (GMT):
> Paul wrote:
>
>> vallor wrote:
>>> 
>>> After updating it to Linux Mint 22.1, and while looking at the output
>>> of lspci(8), discovered this:
>>> 
>>> 0000:00:08.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation 12th Gen Core Processor 
>>> Gaussian & Neural Accelerator (rev 02)
>>> 
>>> There's an out-of-tree driver Linux driver for it, and apparently Intel
>>> is working to get it into the Linux kernel.
>>> 
>>> Having said that, can't imagine why I'd use it.  (I guess perhaps Windows
>>> Copilot might use it, but I'll defer to others regarding whether or not
>>> that is the case.)
>>
>>Your guess is as good as any.
>>
>>https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software-development-platforms/client/platforms/alder-lake-desktop/12th-generation-intel-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/003/intel-gmm-and-neural-network-accelerator/
>>
>>Even the person making a URL for the article, was running out of letters.
>
> Interesting.  I hadn't even heard of this GNA thingy before.
>
>>In a strange twist of fate, it's being used as a Direct Render Manager "thingy".
>>No resource goes wasted, I would guess.
>>
>>https://www.phoronix.com/news/Intel-GNA-To-DRM-Driver
>
> The article notes that Linux does not yet have a dedicated AI
> accelerator subsystem.  I wonder when that's coming, and if we should
> be afraid.


Well, I probably won't use it, but that is I /guess/ neat.
-- 
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#181939 — Re: Gaming Laptops

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2025-02-03 19:24 -0500
SubjectRe: Gaming Laptops
Message-ID<vnrmo5$1hlel$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181932
On Mon, 2/3/2025 3:10 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote at 14:05 this Sunday (GMT):
>> Paul wrote:
>>
>>> vallor wrote:
>>>>
>>>> After updating it to Linux Mint 22.1, and while looking at the output
>>>> of lspci(8), discovered this:
>>>>
>>>> 0000:00:08.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation 12th Gen Core Processor 
>>>> Gaussian & Neural Accelerator (rev 02)
>>>>
>>>> There's an out-of-tree driver Linux driver for it, and apparently Intel
>>>> is working to get it into the Linux kernel.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, can't imagine why I'd use it.  (I guess perhaps Windows
>>>> Copilot might use it, but I'll defer to others regarding whether or not
>>>> that is the case.)
>>>
>>> Your guess is as good as any.
>>>
>>> https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software-development-platforms/client/platforms/alder-lake-desktop/12th-generation-intel-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/003/intel-gmm-and-neural-network-accelerator/
>>>
>>> Even the person making a URL for the article, was running out of letters.
>>
>> Interesting.  I hadn't even heard of this GNA thingy before.
>>
>>> In a strange twist of fate, it's being used as a Direct Render Manager "thingy".
>>> No resource goes wasted, I would guess.
>>>
>>> https://www.phoronix.com/news/Intel-GNA-To-DRM-Driver
>>
>> The article notes that Linux does not yet have a dedicated AI
>> accelerator subsystem.  I wonder when that's coming, and if we should
>> be afraid.
> 
> 
> Well, I probably won't use it, but that is I /guess/ neat.
> 

The NVidia driver and the CUDA kit, are the most likely to expose
the bottom layer of a model you might want. The rest of a desired model
or activity, could run in userspace.

AMD also has capabilities, but they tend to be packaged
in the most expensive cards (7900XTX). And due to the level of market
penetration, AMD does not currently have a large portion of the
high end video card market. The number of people adding AMD kits
to their PC, that's going to be a smaller number of people.

But once some hardware drivers are in there, for one thing or another,
the models you want to experiment with, will be in userspace.
Maybe you get a copy of LMStudio and their launcher,
and load something on your system. With the understanding that the
datacenter version has a lot more hardware horsepower (but
still gives answers relatively slowly).

There are people who have been working on ONNX/DirectML for
the last four years, but it's hard to say how many of
those efforts are ready for prime time.

I only learned a tiny bit about this, from someone who wrote in
and complained his astronomy program wasn't running right. And
that's an image processor that uses Machine Learning to
adaptively process astronomy pictures. The code was basically
malfunctioning, right at the stage it was running hardware
detection, and the program would not load while it was
figuring out that only the user CPU was available. The
code was tripping up poking hardware that could not
possibly do the job for him. And it turns out there are a
lot of libraries and stuff to load, to do all those
detection processes properly. An "abomination of initialization".
And I could see that taking at least another year, to set right.
That's not a job for the program dev to fix, it's a library
developer issue.

One way to set that one right, would be to have a control panel,
with a "CPU button", click the CPU button and tell the initialization code
to "go away and stop bothering me" :-)

I've had this problem, on a few attempts to run unique things.
I could get the CPU to run the demo. I couldn't get my video
card to run it. The setup just refused, and I'd loaded all
the drivers and the CUDA kit. The correct version of everything
is nicely packaged by Canonical for you to use. That wasn't the problem.
I've had other situations, where I was trying to build a package
that involved CUDA, the compile stopped and it would tell me
"library mismatch". But it would not tell me what version the
two incompatible ends were using, so I could figure out which
2GB thing I needed to download. That's the value the packaging
guys add to your distro, is they make sure a reasonable set of
aligned things are available in the tree.

But with computers, not everything in life is like a trip
to the restaurant. A plate does not come out with your meal
ready to eat. Instead, with computers, it's like the grocery store,
you have a bunch of potential ingredients, but you have to cook them.
And there are lots of ways to screw that up. Maybe your oven
isn't big enough to cook a water buffalo.

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#181940 — Re: Gaming Laptops

Frompothead <pothead@snakebite.com>
Date2025-02-04 00:45 +0000
SubjectRe: Gaming Laptops
Message-ID<vnrnui$1hp7p$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#181939
On 2025-02-04, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 2/3/2025 3:10 PM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote at 14:05 this Sunday (GMT):
>>> Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> vallor wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> After updating it to Linux Mint 22.1, and while looking at the output
>>>>> of lspci(8), discovered this:
>>>>>
>>>>> 0000:00:08.0 System peripheral: Intel Corporation 12th Gen Core Processor 
>>>>> Gaussian & Neural Accelerator (rev 02)
>>>>>
>>>>> There's an out-of-tree driver Linux driver for it, and apparently Intel
>>>>> is working to get it into the Linux kernel.
>>>>>

>>>>> Having said that, can't imagine why I'd use it.  (I guess perhaps Windows
>>>>> Copilot might use it, but I'll defer to others regarding whether or not
>>>>> that is the case.)
>>>>
>>>> Your guess is as good as any.
>>>>
>>>> https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software-development-platforms/client/platforms/alder-lake-desktop/12th-generation-intel-core-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2/003/intel-gmm-and-neural-network-accelerator/
>>>>
>>>> Even the person making a URL for the article, was running out of letters.
>>>
>>> Interesting.  I hadn't even heard of this GNA thingy before.
>>>
>>>> In a strange twist of fate, it's being used as a Direct Render Manager "thingy".
>>>> No resource goes wasted, I would guess.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.phoronix.com/news/Intel-GNA-To-DRM-Driver
>>>
>>> The article notes that Linux does not yet have a dedicated AI
>>> accelerator subsystem.  I wonder when that's coming, and if we should
>>> be afraid.
>> 
>> 
>> Well, I probably won't use it, but that is I /guess/ neat.
>> 
>
> The NVidia driver and the CUDA kit, are the most likely to expose
> the bottom layer of a model you might want. The rest of a desired model
> or activity, could run in userspace.
>
> AMD also has capabilities, but they tend to be packaged
> in the most expensive cards (7900XTX). And due to the level of market
> penetration, AMD does not currently have a large portion of the
> high end video card market. The number of people adding AMD kits
> to their PC, that's going to be a smaller number of people.
>
> But once some hardware drivers are in there, for one thing or another,
> the models you want to experiment with, will be in userspace.
> Maybe you get a copy of LMStudio and their launcher,
> and load something on your system. With the understanding that the
> datacenter version has a lot more hardware horsepower (but
> still gives answers relatively slowly).
>
> There are people who have been working on ONNX/DirectML for
> the last four years, but it's hard to say how many of
> those efforts are ready for prime time.
>
> I only learned a tiny bit about this, from someone who wrote in
> and complained his astronomy program wasn't running right. And
> that's an image processor that uses Machine Learning to
> adaptively process astronomy pictures. The code was basically
> malfunctioning, right at the stage it was running hardware
> detection, and the program would not load while it was
> figuring out that only the user CPU was available. The
> code was tripping up poking hardware that could not
> possibly do the job for him. And it turns out there are a
> lot of libraries and stuff to load, to do all those
> detection processes properly. An "abomination of initialization".
> And I could see that taking at least another year, to set right.
> That's not a job for the program dev to fix, it's a library
> developer issue.
>
> One way to set that one right, would be to have a control panel,
> with a "CPU button", click the CPU button and tell the initialization code
> to "go away and stop bothering me" :-)
>
> I've had this problem, on a few attempts to run unique things.
> I could get the CPU to run the demo. I couldn't get my video
> card to run it. The setup just refused, and I'd loaded all
> the drivers and the CUDA kit. The correct version of everything
> is nicely packaged by Canonical for you to use. That wasn't the problem.
> I've had other situations, where I was trying to build a package
> that involved CUDA, the compile stopped and it would tell me
> "library mismatch". But it would not tell me what version the
> two incompatible ends were using, so I could figure out which
> 2GB thing I needed to download. That's the value the packaging
> guys add to your distro, is they make sure a reasonable set of
> aligned things are available in the tree.
>
> But with computers, not everything in life is like a trip
> to the restaurant. A plate does not come out with your meal
> ready to eat. Instead, with computers, it's like the grocery store,
> you have a bunch of potential ingredients, but you have to cook them.
> And there are lots of ways to screw that up. Maybe your oven
> isn't big enough to cook a water buffalo.
>
>    Paul

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.
Good poast.

-- 
pothead

Why did Joe Biden pardon his family?
Read below to learn the reason.
The Biden Crime Family Timeline here:
https://oversight.house.gov/the-bidens-influence-peddling-timeline/

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#181434

FromMark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid>
Date2025-01-16 18:45 +0000
Message-ID<678953e4$2$17$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
In reply to#181429
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 12:10:33 -0500, Paul wrote:

[snip]

> You're in control of the build. If something breaks,
> you're in control of the repair too. No returning a unit three times,
> hearing "no fault found", haranguing tech support for a replacement
> machine and so on. Think of the hair loss saved.

There was one night when I was up, that I discovered that my main computer 
wasn't working. I little testing showed it was the power supply that had 
failed. I replaced it and everything was OK. That PC was "out of action" 
for a couple of hours. If I had depended on a store to fix it, I would 
probably had gotten that new PS, along with having to explain a very non-
standard software setup, waiting a couple of weeks (or more), and spending 
a couple of days recreating the software configuration they had messed up.

> I don't want to use anyones "warranty service".
> 
>    [Picture]
> 
>     https://i.postimg.cc/ry0VWG7J/home-build-what-you-want.gif
> 
>    Paul

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"SENILE.COM found. Out Of Memory."

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