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Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz

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  Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2025-05-10 12:59 +0100
    Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2025-05-10 07:45 -0500
      Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2025-05-10 16:17 +0100
    Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-05-10 13:29 +0000
      Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-10 14:13 -0400
        Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> - 2025-05-11 13:33 +0100
      Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-05-12 13:45 +0000
        Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 06:58 +0000
    Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-10 12:22 -0400
    Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2025-05-10 20:30 +0200
      Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2025-05-10 19:52 -0500
        Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2025-05-10 19:25 -0600
    Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Howard <Howard@Home.com> - 2025-05-11 07:37 -0400
      Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:31 +0200
        Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> - 2025-05-12 17:27 +0100
          Re: Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-12 16:35 -0400

#184392 — Wireless connection 2.4 or 5 GHz

I've noticed the following from my router hub.
All Windows10 desktops connect at 2.4GHz
android phone 2.4Ghz
Win11 laptop at 5Ghz
iPads and AppleTV at 5GHz
Sonos speakers at 5GHz

Google tells me this:
"Connecting at 2.4 GHz is often preferred for its longer range and 
ability to penetrate walls, making it suitable for devices in larger 
homes or those further away from the router. While slower than 5 GHz, 
2.4 GHz provides a more reliable and consistent connection, especially 
in areas with many obstacles".

However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
incompatibility?

Ed

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#184393

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:

> I've noticed the following from my router hub.
> All Windows10 desktops connect at 2.4GHz
> android phone 2.4Ghz
> Win11 laptop at 5Ghz
> iPads and AppleTV at 5GHz
> Sonos speakers at 5GHz
> 
> Google tells me this:
> "Connecting at 2.4 GHz is often preferred for its longer range and 
> ability to penetrate walls, making it suitable for devices in larger 
> homes or those further away from the router. While slower than 5 GHz, 
> 2.4 GHz provides a more reliable and consistent connection, especially 
> in areas with many obstacles".
> 
> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
> incompatibility?

2.4 GHz: longer range, slower bandwidth
  5 GHz: shorter range, faster bandwidth
  
Incompatibility is whether your device (e.g., router) supports 5 GHz, or
not.  Been a long time since I saw a wifi router that didn't have 5 GHz.
Pairing at the router depends on which frequencies the router supports.
You will have to read the manual, or lookup online specs, on your router
to know which freqs it supports.  Each freq will have a different SSID,
and can have a different passphrase, so the devices will have to use the
same SSID and passphrase to whichever freq they want to use at the
router to match what the device supports.

Some devices only have 2.4 GHz, so that's all you get for pairing to the
router.  I have security web cams that only do 2.4 GHz, so they have to
use 2.4 GHz to the wifi router.  My Android phone does both 2.4 GHz and
5 GHz, and it easily connects to my wifi router using 5 GHz throughout
my home, so I use 5 GHz for faster bandwidth between phone and router.

Was there an issue with your wifi devices and wifi router?

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#184396

VanguardLH wrote:
> Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
> 
>> I've noticed the following from my router hub.
>> All Windows10 desktops connect at 2.4GHz
>> android phone 2.4Ghz
>> Win11 laptop at 5Ghz
>> iPads and AppleTV at 5GHz
>> Sonos speakers at 5GHz
>>
>> Google tells me this:
>> "Connecting at 2.4 GHz is often preferred for its longer range and
>> ability to penetrate walls, making it suitable for devices in larger
>> homes or those further away from the router. While slower than 5 GHz,
>> 2.4 GHz provides a more reliable and consistent connection, especially
>> in areas with many obstacles".
>>
>> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on
>> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this
>> incompatibility?
> 
> 2.4 GHz: longer range, slower bandwidth
>    5 GHz: shorter range, faster bandwidth
>    
> Incompatibility is whether your device (e.g., router) supports 5 GHz, or
> not.  Been a long time since I saw a wifi router that didn't have 5 GHz.
> Pairing at the router depends on which frequencies the router supports.
> You will have to read the manual, or lookup online specs, on your router
> to know which freqs it supports.  Each freq will have a different SSID,
> and can have a different passphrase, so the devices will have to use the
> same SSID and passphrase to whichever freq they want to use at the
> router to match what the device supports.
> 
> Some devices only have 2.4 GHz, so that's all you get for pairing to the
> router.  I have security web cams that only do 2.4 GHz, so they have to
> use 2.4 GHz to the wifi router.  My Android phone does both 2.4 GHz and
> 5 GHz, and it easily connects to my wifi router using 5 GHz throughout
> my home, so I use 5 GHz for faster bandwidth between phone and router.
> 
> Was there an issue with your wifi devices and wifi router?

No known issue, apart from my curiosity.
My router works OK with all the devices.

Ed

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#184394

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>  
> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
> incompatibility?
> 

Don't know if it's a well known example, but certainly my router has the
different frequencies as different wifi networks which devices can connect
to one or other. Not both. Thus devices can't talk to each other across the
networks. 

I've occasionally had problems with devices not connecting to the printer
as they're on the other frequency network. 

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#184398

On Sat, 5/10/2025 9:29 AM, Chris wrote:
> Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>>  
>> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
>> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
>> incompatibility?
>>
> 
> Don't know if it's a well known example, but certainly my router has the
> different frequencies as different wifi networks which devices can connect
> to one or other. Not both. Thus devices can't talk to each other across the
> networks. 
> 
> I've occasionally had problems with devices not connecting to the printer
> as they're on the other frequency network. 
> 

This product uses the same SSID for both bands.
Why ? Who knows.

   Paul

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#184404

On Sat, 10 May 2025 14:13:01 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On Sat, 5/10/2025 9:29 AM, Chris wrote:
>> Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>>>  
>>> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
>>> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
>>> incompatibility?
>>>
>> 
>> Don't know if it's a well known example, but certainly my router has the
>> different frequencies as different wifi networks which devices can connect
>> to one or other. Not both. Thus devices can't talk to each other across the
>> networks. 
>> 
>> I've occasionally had problems with devices not connecting to the printer
>> as they're on the other frequency network. 
>> 
>
>This product uses the same SSID for both bands.
>Why ? Who knows.
>

Some routers have an option to use the same SSID on both bands. It's
so that items that move, like phones/tablets, can connect to the
strongest signal without intervention.

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#184412

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
> >  
> > However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
> > different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
> > incompatibility?
> > 
> 
> Don't know if it's a well known example, but certainly my router has the
> different frequencies as different wifi networks which devices can connect
> to one or other. Not both. Thus devices can't talk to each other across the
> networks. 
> 
> I've occasionally had problems with devices not connecting to the printer
> as they're on the other frequency network. 

  As others also indicated: Huh? Sure some routers have different
*SSIDs* for different frequencies, but those different SSDs are on the
same *network*, i.e. IP address range. For example my SSIDs are of the
form <SSID> (5GHz) and <SSID>_2.4, but all IP addresses are in the range
192.168.178.DDD.

  It would be reasonable if a router had the *capability* to have
different networks for different frequencies, but surely it must also
have the capability to treat different frequencies as one network.

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#184421

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
>>> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
>>> incompatibility?
>>> 
>> 
>> Don't know if it's a well known example, but certainly my router has the
>> different frequencies as different wifi networks which devices can connect
>> to one or other. Not both. Thus devices can't talk to each other across the
>> networks. 
>> 
>> I've occasionally had problems with devices not connecting to the printer
>> as they're on the other frequency network. 
> 
>   As others also indicated: Huh? Sure some routers have different
> *SSIDs* for different frequencies, but those different SSDs are on the
> same *network*, i.e. IP address range. For example my SSIDs are of the
> form <SSID> (5GHz) and <SSID>_2.4, but all IP addresses are in the range
> 192.168.178.DDD.
> 
>   It would be reasonable if a router had the *capability* to have
> different networks for different frequencies, but surely it must also
> have the capability to treat different frequencies as one network.

It may be coincidence but I've definitely had problems with devices seeing
the printer from the "other" frequency SSID. The router has different
SSIDs. 

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#184397

On Sat, 5/10/2025 7:59 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> I've noticed the following from my router hub.
> All Windows10 desktops connect at 2.4GHz
> android phone 2.4Ghz
> Win11 laptop at 5Ghz
> iPads and AppleTV at 5GHz
> Sonos speakers at 5GHz
> 
> Google tells me this:
> "Connecting at 2.4 GHz is often preferred for its longer range and ability to penetrate walls, making it suitable for devices in larger homes or those further away from the router. While slower than 5 GHz, 2.4 GHz provides a more reliable and consistent connection, especially in areas with many obstacles".
> 
> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this incompatibility?
> 
> Ed
> 

That device may have the same SSID for both bands of radio.

Maybe someone with more Wifi knowledge can translate that
into "expected outcomes" for you. You can't band steer with
SSID because of that.

It's a MIMO device (3x3 on 2.4GHz, 4x4 on 5GHz), but
all the antennas (7) are planar and on the same PCB. And again,
I'm not knowledgeable enough about Wifi, to understand
what exactly they were doing from a radios standards
point of view. Whether the whole thing is considered to be
11AC or what the hell it is. It would definitely seem to be
planning for a higher transfer rate on 5GHz.

And we don't really know, if the "characterization" of
this mystery meat, is accurate or not. People may be
reverse engineering by eye, rather than getting
at least some specs from the <cough> source.

   Paul

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#184399

On Sat, 10 May 2025 12:59:07 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:

> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
> incompatibility?

It happens, some (older) IoT have problems when connecting to 2.4 GHz
when the SSID for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz is the same. I always use 2
different SSIDs when I can.

-- 
s|b

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#184400

On Sat, 10 May 2025 20:30:13 +0200, "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 10 May 2025 12:59:07 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:
>
>> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
>> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
>> incompatibility?
>
>It happens, some (older) IoT have problems when connecting to 2.4 GHz
>when the SSID for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz is the same. I always use 2
>different SSIDs when I can.

Back when 2.4GHz was the only game in town, I had 4 pairs of Linksys
WRT-54gl WiFi routers scattered around the house. Pairs, because one
device in each pair was configured as an access point and was cabled
back-to-back (LAN-to-LAN) with the second device in its pair, and that
second device was configured as a WiFi client. The client in the 4th
pair was connected to the AP in the 3rd pair, the client in the 3rd pair
was connected to the AP in the 2nd pair, the client in the 2nd pair was
connected to the AP in the 1st pair, and finally, the client in the 1st
pair was connected to the main router/gateway device. Each of the 4 AP's
had a descriptive SSID name so that I could easily connect to the most
appropriate AP, depending upon where I happened to be. Add in a Guest
SSID on each pair, and you have a very busy-looking WiFi environment.
This was before 5GHz, and well before Mesh.

Things got even messier when I added 5GHz to that recipe, but then Mesh
came along and now the entire house, plus the back yard, the garage, and
the front yard, are all covered by what appears to be a single SSID with
a single password, plus a single Guest network with a single password.

From the SSID perspective, I went from 8 SSIDs (2.4GHz only) to 16 SSIDs
(2.4GHz & 5GHz), then to 2 SSIDs (one for 2.4GHz/5GHz and one for
Guest), so things are very simple now.

My IoT devices, such as thermostat, doorbell, garage door openers,
sprinkler system, and Trimlight permanent holiday lighting, all connect
only to the 2.4GHz network. They don't even see the 5GHz network with
the same SSID. Other things, like laptops, printers, phones, etc., can
connect to whatever suits them. I've noticed that the phones, laptops,
and printers all seem to prefer 5GHz, which is fine with me.

Someone mentioned a case where 2.4GHz devices were unable to see 5GHz
devices that are connected to the same router, which sounds to me like a
bug or a misconfiguration. 

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#184401

On 5/10/2025 6:52 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 2025 20:30:13 +0200, "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 10 May 2025 12:59:07 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>
>>> However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on
>>> different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this
>>> incompatibility?
>>
>> It happens, some (older) IoT have problems when connecting to 2.4 GHz
>> when the SSID for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz is the same. I always use 2
>> different SSIDs when I can.
> 
> Back when 2.4GHz was the only game in town, I had 4 pairs of Linksys
> WRT-54gl WiFi routers scattered around the house. Pairs, because one
> device in each pair was configured as an access point and was cabled
> back-to-back (LAN-to-LAN) with the second device in its pair, and that
> second device was configured as a WiFi client. The client in the 4th
> pair was connected to the AP in the 3rd pair, the client in the 3rd pair
> was connected to the AP in the 2nd pair, the client in the 2nd pair was
> connected to the AP in the 1st pair, and finally, the client in the 1st
> pair was connected to the main router/gateway device. Each of the 4 AP's
> had a descriptive SSID name so that I could easily connect to the most
> appropriate AP, depending upon where I happened to be. Add in a Guest
> SSID on each pair, and you have a very busy-looking WiFi environment.
> This was before 5GHz, and well before Mesh.
> 
> Things got even messier when I added 5GHz to that recipe, but then Mesh
> came along and now the entire house, plus the back yard, the garage, and
> the front yard, are all covered by what appears to be a single SSID with
> a single password, plus a single Guest network with a single password.
> 
>  From the SSID perspective, I went from 8 SSIDs (2.4GHz only) to 16 SSIDs
> (2.4GHz & 5GHz), then to 2 SSIDs (one for 2.4GHz/5GHz and one for
> Guest), so things are very simple now.
> 
> My IoT devices, such as thermostat, doorbell, garage door openers,
> sprinkler system, and Trimlight permanent holiday lighting, all connect
> only to the 2.4GHz network. They don't even see the 5GHz network with
> the same SSID. Other things, like laptops, printers, phones, etc., can
> connect to whatever suits them. I've noticed that the phones, laptops,
> and printers all seem to prefer 5GHz, which is fine with me.
> 
> Someone mentioned a case where 2.4GHz devices were unable to see 5GHz
> devices that are connected to the same router, which sounds to me like a
> bug or a misconfiguration.

It's no more illogical than having 10, 100, and 1000 ethernet devices 
connecting to the same network and talking. Routers/meshes offering 
multiple speeds with the *SAME* SSID are logically implementing a single 
LAN. Why would you not want all connections to be able to use the same 
printer(s) and communicate? I'm virtually certain this is all standard 
and has been for years.
-- 
Jeff Barnett

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#184403

On Sat, 10 May 2025 12:59:07 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrotG:

>I've noticed the following from my router hub.
>All Windows10 desktops connect at 2.4GHz
>android phone 2.4Ghz
>Win11 laptop at 5Ghz
>iPads and AppleTV at 5GHz
>Sonos speakers at 5GHz
>
>Google tells me this:
>"Connecting at 2.4 GHz is often preferred for its longer range and 
>ability to penetrate walls, making it suitable for devices in larger 
>homes or those further away from the router. While slower than 5 GHz, 
>2.4 GHz provides a more reliable and consistent connection, especially 
>in areas with many obstacles".
>
>However, I've read that some routers can't pair devices connected on 
>different GHz frequencies. Are there any well known examples of this 
>incompatibility?
>
>Ed

The newer routers supplied by Spectrum can only do 5GHz. I had to buy
a TP-Link extender from Amazon in order to configure my outside smart
bulb.  Most smart devices only operate on 2.4 GHz. -- Howard

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#184405

On Sun, 11 May 2025 07:37:18 -0400, Howard wrote:

> The newer routers supplied by Spectrum can only do 5GHz. I had to buy
> a TP-Link extender from Amazon in order to configure my outside smart
> bulb.  Most smart devices only operate on 2.4 GHz. -- Howard

"progress"

-- 
s|b

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#184415

On Sun, 11 May 2025 15:31:43 +0200, "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>> On Sun, 11 May 2025 07:37:18 -0400, Howard wrote:
>>
>> Most smart devices only operate on 2.4 GHz.

>"progress"

Because the manufacturers of these devices use the cheapest
components. (The camera in my wall light next to the front door not
only uses 2.4GHz but requires 5GHz to be turned off while it connects
to the router the first time. After it has connected the 5GHz can be
turned back on. Bonkers.)

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#184418

On Mon, 5/12/2025 12:27 PM, Peter Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 2025 15:31:43 +0200, "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>> On Sun, 11 May 2025 07:37:18 -0400, Howard wrote:
>>>
>>> Most smart devices only operate on 2.4 GHz.
> 
>> "progress"
> 
> Because the manufacturers of these devices use the cheapest
> components. (The camera in my wall light next to the front door not
> only uses 2.4GHz but requires 5GHz to be turned off while it connects
> to the router the first time. After it has connected the 5GHz can be
> turned back on. Bonkers.)
> 

Doing an RF PA at 5GHz is harder than an RF PA at 2.4GHz.

And even as it is, some products, the CMOS chips don't actually
like running an RF PA in CMOS, and the CMOS PA degrades over a
matter of three months (this could be electromigration). And
suddenly "it doesn't reach the router any more".

Another datapoint for those marginal designs, is if you buy
two identical ones, "one reaches, the other does not". They
actually have different max output, when they leave the factory.

I agree that cheapness plays a big part, but what the
chips are made out of (22nm or 5nm), makes a difference
to what Wifi can be put in there, and driven from the
main chip. This would be less of a problem with a Bipolar PA
connected directly to the CMOS chip, and it does the heavy
lifting. For relatively miniature devices, there isn't room
for that. Bipolar HBT works at up to 100GHz.

I think Ed Cryer's router, is seven CMOS PA and patch
antennas on the PCB. No stub adjustable antennas screwed
to the back of the unit, for MIMO adjustment. It is a basic
Wifi design, like many many other products.

And the word "Bonkers" can be aptly applied to everything
electronic we buy now. It's not very often, a product is
truly trouble free. Would making the product domestically
stop that ? IDK.

There's been a change in how products get made, and as an
engineer towards the end of my career, I was getting pushed
more and more out of the loop. I have less oversight on
making sure utter crap isn't delivered. That's a concern,
and that is not going to change.

At my last company, I finished my hardware design,
quit the company, and walked away. Why ? Because they wouldn't
let me finish bring up, and the all important FPGA design
of the I/O on it. I couldn't be sure anyone understood my
design intent. A Chinese guy was doing the FPGA design...
he was good too. Just the design intent was what I couldn't
be sure of. I was going to be put on working on 800VDC
circuits (I don't know if I mentioned it, but I hate
electrical shocks, and being blown out of my shoes
at 800V was not on my bucket list). I heard in a teleconference
"oh, Fred, he gets shocks on that thing all the time".
What ever happened to Fred. Hmmm. Did Fred leave any shoes behind ?

I'm not afraid of HV, but I have strict rules about safety.
There were a few "avoidable" lab incidents in my career,
involving basic safety and sloppy thinking. And the only
way to stay safe, is to not let people do that to you.
As an example, someone cut the safety ground wire in
a distribution conduit, and I discovered the hard way it
was missing. I know why they did it. But they should
have cleaned up after themselves. It's not hard to splice
that wire back together again. Takes 30 seconds.

   Paul

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