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Keeping Win 10 safe

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  Keeping Win 10 safe Bennett Price <bjprice@cal.berkeley.edu> - 2025-01-16 10:13 -0800
    Re: Keeping Win 10 safe Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-16 18:57 +0000
      Re: Keeping Win 10 safe Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-16 15:02 -0600
      Re: Keeping Win 10 safe Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2025-01-17 07:31 +0200
        Re: Keeping Win 10 safe "Thomk" <thmk@aol.com> - 2025-03-06 15:03 +0200
    Re: Keeping Win 10 safe Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-16 17:20 -0500
      Re: Keeping Win 10 safe "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-16 23:37 +0100
    Re: Keeping Win 10 safe Head of Cyber Security <security@cyber-security.com> - 2025-01-17 01:17 +0000
    Re: Keeping Win 10 safe Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-01-17 08:55 -0500

#181431 — Keeping Win 10 safe

I know that there are workarounds to install Win 11 on older machines. 
What I'm wondering about is whether installing aftermarket virus 
software (Norton, AVG, etc.) would keep Win 10 safe after MS stops 
supporting it.  Clearly, Win 10 won't get patches to Notepad, Snipping 
Tool, etc.  but would anti-virus software keep Win 10 safe from malware 
on the internet?

What support that MS will stop providing can't be provided by 
aftermarket software?

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#181435

Bennett Price <bjprice@cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> I know that there are workarounds to install Win 11 on older machines. 
> What I'm wondering about is whether installing aftermarket virus 
> software (Norton, AVG, etc.) would keep Win 10 safe after MS stops 
> supporting it.  Clearly, Win 10 won't get patches to Notepad, Snipping 
> Tool, etc.  but would anti-virus software keep Win 10 safe from malware 
> on the internet?
> 
> What support that MS will stop providing can't be provided by 
> aftermarket software?

  Obviously: Security fixes. Whether that is a problem if you practice
safe hex, is another matter. But it is a risk you can't mitigate with
additional software.

  FYI, there are several people in these Windows newsgroups who still
run Windows XP and 7 (and probably some running 8.1 and even Vista) and
who get by with practicing safe hex and optional malware protection.

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#181439

Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Bennett Price <bjprice@cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> I know that there are workarounds to install Win 11 on older machines.
>> What I'm wondering about is whether installing aftermarket virus
>> software (Norton, AVG, etc.) would keep Win 10 safe after MS stops
>> supporting it.  Clearly, Win 10 won't get patches to Notepad, Snipping
>> Tool, etc.  but would anti-virus software keep Win 10 safe from malware
>> on the internet?
>>
>> What support that MS will stop providing can't be provided by
>> aftermarket software?
> 
>    Obviously: Security fixes. Whether that is a problem if you practice
> safe hex, is another matter. But it is a risk you can't mitigate with
> additional software.
> 
>    FYI, there are several people in these Windows newsgroups who still
> run Windows XP and 7 (and probably some running 8.1 and even Vista) and
> who get by with practicing safe hex and optional malware protection.
> 

Yes. I ran win xp for nearly 20 years with no problem.

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#181479

On 16 Jan 2025 18:57:58 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>  FYI, there are several people in these Windows newsgroups who still
>run Windows XP and 7 (and probably some running 8.1 and even Vista) and
>who get by with practicing safe hex and optional malware protection.

Yes, I'm still running XP. and a lot of more recently devised things
for "keeping computing safe" are counter-productive. For example, 99%
of the web sites I visit warn me that their certificates have expired,
or are for a different site. When "safety" features cry "Wolf" like
that they tend to be routinely ignored. 

But there are old-fashioned elementary precautions one can take that
are far more effective. For example, I practise safe hex by only
allowing plain text email messages. That means that 80% of the "Click
Here" links in phishing messages don't work at all, and the others can
be dealt with by hovering the cursor over the link and seeing that it
doesn't match the pretended link. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#182802

"Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> kirjoitti viestissä
news:92qjoj5gs6h70cebs2mg01f115sepaqrfu@4ax.com...
> On 16 Jan 2025 18:57:58 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >  FYI, there are several people in these Windows newsgroups who still
> >run Windows XP and 7 (and probably some running 8.1 and even Vista) and
> >who get by with practicing safe hex and optional malware protection.
>
> Yes, I'm still running XP. and a lot of more recently devised things
> for "keeping computing safe" are counter-productive. For example, 99%
> of the web sites I visit warn me that their certificates have expired,
> or are for a different site. When "safety" features cry "Wolf" like
> that they tend to be routinely ignored.
>
> But there are old-fashioned elementary precautions one can take that
> are far more effective. For example, I practise safe hex by only
> allowing plain text email messages. That means that 80% of the "Click
> Here" links in phishing messages don't work at all, and the others can
> be dealt with by hovering the cursor over the link and seeing that it
> doesn't match the pretended link.
>
>
> --
> Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
> Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
> Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
> E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop
uk

And I'm still running Me.

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#181451

On Thu, 1/16/2025 1:13 PM, Bennett Price wrote:
> I know that there are workarounds to install Win 11 on older machines. What I'm wondering about is whether installing aftermarket virus software (Norton, AVG, etc.) would keep Win 10 safe after MS stops supporting it.  Clearly, Win 10 won't get patches to Notepad, Snipping Tool, etc.  but would anti-virus software keep Win 10 safe from malware on the internet?
> 
> What support that MS will stop providing can't be provided by aftermarket software?

I've had Defender, or something related to it, pop up and suggest I remove
the Asus AI Suite driver. There is a class of exploits, using certain
well known drivers, and the advice is to remove the item to make
one less attack surface.

I didn't even know the driver file was present. I may have run that, right after
building the computer, then used Add/Remove to remove it. And that file was
left behind.

This is not something that an aftermarket AV would be doing. An aftermarket
AV might concentrate on detecting current threats, or threats from things
you downloaded. If you "scan" the Asus file, there is nothing wrong with it.
But it can be abused, to burrow in.

The class of threats managed, could be subtly different.

Security on computers is a touchy subject. You might get an opinion for
example, of "why are you running Windows if you are worried about security?".

I've only been tipped over once, and it was WinXP, the attack came through the
browser, a large number of browser windows opened, and right after
that I was infected. A trial copy of Kaspersky removed the infection,
after three reboots. fortunately, it wasn't a worm and did not
infect anything else.

The threat level is perhaps a bit higher, for commercial installations.
If my domain was zeiss.com , I would expect more attempts to tip over
my machine than if I was a-b-c-d-e@comcast.com and just an anonymous
home user on the Internet.

For example, one user in another group, he was a small business man.
A one-man business. He had his own domain. Godaddy. He didn't cloak his
ID on the domain registration. Well, some perp crafted an email purporting
to be from GoDaddy, a domain renewal with a "PDF" attachment. Well, the PDF
attachment was actually a ransomware executable. He double clicked it.
Life for him, was over after that. Wiped out. Entire computer room.
All with red rectangles demanding bitcoins. As soon as you raise your
"profile" even a tiny bit on the Internet, that's what happens.

To some extent, it's your own habits that determine your security.
Do you know a bit of "safe hex" ? Do you keep clicking the Adchoice "Download"
green button when you see it ? Some people seem incapable of helping themselves,
they just keep doing that. If you know you are one of those people, self-awareness
is the first step. I know a guy who is like that, and he is armored to the hilt
with heavy weapons. It doesn't always stop the stuff from getting in, but I
approve at least of his ability to try to fend for himself. For that guy,
I would not "make do" with half a solution. I would recommend a proper solution
as a base to build on.

For many of the rest of us, we'll survive just fine. Always being careful,
checking over our shoulder, not double clicking attachments, and so on.

Third party AV only last for a limited number of years after OS end of support.
Say the AVG lasts for another two or three years for example. I'm not
aware of any of them lasting forever. Maybe the reason a company like
that does not do this indefinitely, is at some point the list of things
needing patching or watching, is just getting too large to manage.

   Paul

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#181454

On 2025-01-16 23:20, Paul wrote:

...

> For example, one user in another group, he was a small business man.
> A one-man business. He had his own domain. Godaddy. He didn't cloak his
> ID on the domain registration. Well, some perp crafted an email purporting
> to be from GoDaddy, a domain renewal with a "PDF" attachment. Well, the PDF
> attachment was actually a ransomware executable. He double clicked it.
> Life for him, was over after that. Wiped out. Entire computer room.
> All with red rectangles demanding bitcoins. As soon as you raise your
> "profile" even a tiny bit on the Internet, that's what happens.

Arguably, the mail provider should have quarantined that email. It is 
trivial to block or sanitize executable attachments (not so links).


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#181466

On 16/01/2025 18:13, Bennett Price wrote:
> I know that there are workarounds to install Win 11 on older machines. 
> What I'm wondering about is whether installing aftermarket virus 
> software (Norton, AVG, etc.) would keep Win 10 safe after MS stops 
> supporting it.  Clearly, Win 10 won't get patches to Notepad, Snipping 
> Tool, etc.  but would anti-virus software keep Win 10 safe from malware 
> on the internet?
> 
> What support that MS will stop providing can't be provided by 
> aftermarket software?

If you want to continue using Windows 10 then why are you asking about 
security here?

When support ends, so does the security requirement. If you are 
worried about security then you have to upgrade the operating system or 
use something else that can continue to protect you.

Frankly your question is daft for a public newsgroup such as this one. 
Norton is not free and for AVG you need to ask them if they will 
continue supporting Windows 10. Probably they will because you are the 
type of person they need to use their products. Sane people have stopped 
using third-party anti-virus products so there is a niche market for 
them to serve people like you.

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#181492

On 1/16/2025 1:13 PM, Bennett Price wrote:
> I know that there are workarounds to install Win 11 on older machines. 
> What I'm wondering about is whether installing aftermarket virus 
> software (Norton, AVG, etc.) would keep Win 10 safe after MS stops 
> supporting it.  Clearly, Win 10 won't get patches to Notepad, Snipping 
> Tool, etc.  but would anti-virus software keep Win 10 safe from malware 
> on the internet?
> 
> What support that MS will stop providing can't be provided by 
> aftermarket software?

     I just moved from XP a year ago. I haven't used AV since
about 2000. Microsoft want you to believe that your computer
will turn into a pumpkin without their oversight. The lapdog
tech media are only too happy to print their pre-written press
releases. Microsoft usenet shills like "Head of Cyber Security"
will try to shame you into thinking you're too dumb to understand.

   What does updated security on Windows provide? It gives you
patches for known exploits. Most of those exploits are mainly
relevant in corporate settings. See, for example, this list of
patches from last Sept:

  https://isc.sans.edu/diary/Microsoft+September+2024+Patch+Tuesday/31254

     Keeping up to date can help in a limited way. If you don't
trouble yourself with security then updates and AV are your
only help. But it won't help much with 0-days or "social
engineering" attacks.

    Real security means avoiding script in the browser
or email, using a Firewall to stop in/out that you didn't instigate,
and being careful about email attachments, downloads, sneaky
links, scary popups, etc. That means watch out for scam tricks.

(Sometimes that's not about the computer. The woman I live
with got scammed out of $390 by calling a number from a webpage
popup that told her that her computer was infected. She gave
them her credit card number. How did that happen? Her ignorance
coupled with enabling javascript in the browser, which made the
popup possible. AV would have done no good.)

    Also good is to set up a HOSTS file and block surveillance. That's
not only good for privacy. It's also security. Hackers will buy ad
space on mainstream sites like the NYTimes, then use it to force
you to visit their domain so they can run an attack script. NYTimes
doesn't care. Google, who sold them the ad space, doesn't care.
They all just want their money. So ads have also become one of
the biggest security risks.

    Another good idea is to use disk image backup and backup all
important data: email, taxes, business records, etc. Also, avoid
having sensitive data on your computer at all, if possible. Avoid
online shopping.

   Finally, disable services and software associated with remote
code execution. Things like Remote Desktop are among the most
common problems. If you can call into your computer from
elsewhere then so can other people.

   Twenty five years ago, when AV updates were 1 MB once a month
and attacks came from kids, AV was a good idea. It's waaaaaay out of
date now. The attacks are often coming from government sponsored
hackers, or even our own NSA. Open networks are not safe. But people
want to shop and use the Internet with abandon. And most people
can't be bothered with details. That's how Apple built their customer
base. People mistakenly think Macs are safe.

    People don't want any hassle. You can't have it
both ways. If you can't be bothered then get AV, accept having a
slow system, and hope for the best. Otherwise, play it safe. Don't
buy precut salads in supermarkets and don't enable browser script
when you don't have to.

   Also, these days it's wise to freeze your credit. I'm careful in
general and only use credit cards in a limited way, yet 3 times in
the past year someone has tried to get a credit card in my name.
They were stopped only because my credit is frozen. And I don't shop
online generally. So my personal data is not in most of those hacked
databases.


   This isn't paranoia. It's simply the facts of life in a world where
people are running headlong toward automation. When databases,
police, hospitals, banks, etc are connected to the Internet, it's clear
that even the techies don't understand what they're doing. Disaster
is only a matter of time.

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