Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic

From	Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic
Date	2016-06-23 15:24 +0200
Message-ID	<mailman.77.1466688319.11516.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <576bae4c$0$11112$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> <576BB841.1080603@rece.vub.ac.be> <mailman.65.1466677348.11516.python-list@python.org> <576bd818$0$1619$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <576BE31B.6030400@rece.vub.ac.be>

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Op 23-06-16 om 14:37 schreef Steven D'Aprano:

> So I'm not really sure what you are trying to describe. I guess it might be
> something like this:
>
> def spam(alist):
>     if alist:
>         process(alist)
>     else:
>         print("empty list")
>
>
> If you pass 1 instead of an actual list, then you don't get an error until
> somewhere inside process(). Potentially far, far away. So you want to
> write:
>
> def spam(alist):
>     if len(alist):
>         process(alist)  # requires an actual list
>     else:
>         print("empty list")
>
>
> and now calling spam(1) will raise immediately. Great.
>
> But that's not really anything to do with *bools* specifically. If you call
> spam() with a dict, or a set, or a tuple, or a RedBlackTree, any other
> object with a length, you're no better off. If you absolutely need a list,
> and nothing else, then you have to type-check.

Yes it has to do with the booly nature of python objects. The fact that your
examples still allows for bugs, doesn't contradict it already cathes a lot
of bugs. So yes I'm better of even if I am not completly save. Encouraging
the user to write explicit test, will detect bugs sooner and will make
it more probable the code behaves as expected even when the tests are done
one an unexpected kind of object.

> In practice, I don't see how truthy/falsey objects lead to more or worse
> bugs than any other form of dynamic typing.

Sure, this from a language that states that explicit is better than implicit.
The truthy/falsy objects encourage people to be implicit and thus allowing
a lot of things to pass that were originally not though off.

> To me, your position is equivalent to saying that dynamic typing and
> duck-typing is really great, except for len(). len() should absolutely only
> work on lists, and nothing else, so any time you want to get the length of
> an object, you must work with real lists, not listy sequences:
>
> if len(list(mystring)) > 20: ...
>
> print(len(list(mydict.keys())), "items")
>
>
> etc. Substitute "bool" for "len" and you might understand how I feel about
> your position.

IMO, bool is like you would give any object a lengthy nature and so having any
object also behave like a tuple with the object as it's only item. Then bool and
len would be similar. 

-- 
Antoon.

Thread

Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Elizabeth Weiss <cake240@gmail.com> - 2016-06-21 20:40 -0700
  Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-06-22 13:59 +1000
    Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Elizabeth Weiss <cake240@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 21:19 -0700
    Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Elizabeth Weiss <cake240@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 21:20 -0700
  Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-22 16:02 +1000
  Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2016-06-22 08:26 +0200
    Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-22 10:14 +0300
      Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Elizabeth Weiss <cake240@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 21:21 -0700
  Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 00:42 -0700
    Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-22 20:12 -0700
      Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-23 13:59 +1000
        Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Elizabeth Weiss <cake240@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 21:23 -0700
        Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 09:58 +0200
          Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-23 11:16 +0300
            Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-23 01:53 -0700
              Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-23 12:10 +0300
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 11:27 +0200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-23 12:53 +0300
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 12:54 +0200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-23 13:59 +0300
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 13:15 +0200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-23 15:05 +0300
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-23 22:13 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-23 02:44 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-23 12:57 +0300
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-24 22:38 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-25 09:46 +0300
            Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 11:01 +0200
          Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-23 19:39 +1000
            Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 12:21 +0200
              Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-23 22:37 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 15:24 +0200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-23 09:26 -0400
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-24 02:43 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-24 01:49 +1000
        Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-25 11:56 +0300
      Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 21:47 -0700
        Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 22:00 -0700
        Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> - 2016-06-23 08:34 +0200
          Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-23 09:46 +0300
          Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-23 17:05 +1000
            Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 10:17 +0200
              Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-23 18:48 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 11:23 +0200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-23 21:45 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-23 14:08 +0200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> - 2016-06-23 14:22 +0200
            Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> - 2016-06-23 10:23 +0200
            Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> - 2016-06-23 10:32 +0200
              Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-23 19:17 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-23 12:46 +0300
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> - 2016-06-23 12:19 +0200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-26 11:01 +1200
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-29 03:21 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-29 21:06 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-29 23:08 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-29 06:30 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-30 09:40 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-30 09:01 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-01 03:22 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 22:48 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 22:58 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-16 19:14 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-16 20:16 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 20:46 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-16 21:02 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 00:26 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 05:33 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-17 02:27 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-07-16 17:58 +0100
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 20:43 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 14:05 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 23:44 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 23:59 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 17:33 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 00:44 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-17 20:04 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-17 21:02 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 08:00 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-18 01:58 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-18 02:01 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 03:06 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 05:15 -0700
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-17 02:36 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-06-29 15:00 +0000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2016-06-29 15:05 +0000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-30 09:44 +1000
                Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> - 2016-06-23 11:51 +0200
        Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-23 17:20 +1000
        Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-23 09:18 -0400
      Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2016-06-23 09:11 +0200
    Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Elizabeth Weiss <cake240@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 21:22 -0700
  Fwd: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Jorge Gimeno <jlgimeno71@gmail.com> - 2016-06-21 20:56 -0700
  Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-22 10:10 -0400
  Re: Operator Precedence/Boolean Logic Erik <python@lucidity.plus.com> - 2016-06-22 20:43 +0100

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