Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL!

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Date	2011-07-06 10:34 +1000
Subject	Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL!
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.669.1309912450.1164.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:15 AM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 6:54 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To do what for me? Close windows? Reclaim memory? Terminate
>> applications? I don't understand your bogglement.
>
> ClaimA: I made claim that Tkinter's window hierarchy is not only
> normal, but justified in modern GUI programming.
>
> ClaimB: You made a claim ( or supported a rebuttal claim) that Mac's
> system of window management was superior and did not need such a
> "window hierarchy" simply because;

I never said "better". I just said that it's possible to create an
application that *to the user* has no main window, even though *to the
system* it does. And I'm also pointing out that in most good toolkits,
there's no "main window", but instead a "main thread".

> 1. You can create a program that twiddles it's thumbs (using very
> little memory) until a message is received.
> 2. Upon receiving a message the program can open a GUI window.
> 3. When the user closes the GUI window (definition of "close" is not
> nailed down yet!) the program will free the GUI memory and start
> twiddling it's thumbs again until the next message arrives.
> 4. rinse and repeat until you are happy.

Again, pointing out that it's possible, not that it's good. (Most
messenger programs will have a means of *sending* messages too, which
makes a good basis for a main window.) It's not efficient to keep
loading up GUI libraries and discarding them again. But it's possible,
and it would mean that you genuinely have multiple equal main windows.

> It's obvious that yours and my claims are contradicting. So with that
> said, at what point does Tkinter or Windows fail in this example you
> provide? Because, i can recreate the exact same functionality on a
> windows box without need of the underlying window manager's help.

Actually, everything you do requires the underlying window manager,
otherwise you're just painting your own pixels on the screen. And I
never said that this model was possible in some and not others.
(Although it's a bit harder with Windows; there's no explicit call to
finalize windowing, so most likely the application will hold GUI
memory until termination.)

ChrisA

Thread

Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-03 15:11 -0700
  Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 08:21 +1000
    Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-07-03 18:32 -0400
  Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-04 20:33 +1200
    Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 18:44 +1000
      Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 08:29 -0700
    Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 08:19 -0700
      Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 01:40 +1000
        Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 08:46 -0700
          Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 02:01 +1000
            Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 10:09 -0700
              Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 03:41 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 12:30 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 07:43 +1000
      Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-04 08:45 -0700
      Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-05 23:11 +1200
      Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-05 23:14 +1200
        Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-06 00:25 +1000
          Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 01:17 +1000
            Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 15:38 -0700
          Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Web Dreamer <webdreamer@nospam.fr> - 2011-07-05 18:00 +0200
            Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 15:42 -0700
              Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 09:20 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 16:47 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 09:54 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 17:15 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 10:34 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 18:10 -0700
              Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-06 18:12 +1200
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 06:51 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-07 00:32 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 08:10 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-07 02:11 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 11:28 -0500
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-07 03:41 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 11:19 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 13:36 -0500
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 13:15 -0600
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-07-06 20:34 +0100
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 14:55 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 02:24 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-07-06 18:56 +0200
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-06 12:37 -0500
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 03:46 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-07 17:34 +1200
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 10:29 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 04:24 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-08 11:25 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 10:30 -0700
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-09 14:41 +1000
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-08 13:58 +1200
                Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 13:42 -0500
        Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 15:47 -0700
          Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-06 18:29 +1200
  Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2011-07-04 16:35 +0100
    Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! nn <pruebauno@latinmail.com> - 2011-07-05 08:33 -0700
      Re: Implicit initialization is EVIL! Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2011-07-05 17:23 +0100

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