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Re: True == 1 weirdness

References <0b949fe0-09b4-46b0-b4ac-a85a9bfebfd5@googlegroups.com> <lf5h9mubk4n.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi> <CAPTjJmojzO4HHdAZbVRAQ0JnQLynazOZ9gw3uMWEzuh6iH-F5g@mail.gmail.com> <1442412230.1762717.385286049.20841F36@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Date 2015-09-17 00:26 +1000
Subject Re: True == 1 weirdness
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.640.1442413580.8327.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:03 AM, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015, at 09:05, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> My view is that they should remain in the language, but that
>> dissimilar comparisons should raise linter warnings. I can't imagine a
>> sane reason for chaining 'in' and equality like that (since the RHS of
>> 'in' will be a container, and if you're testing the whole container
>> for equality, you probably don't care about one member in it), but for
>> language consistency, it's good to support it.
>>
>> Chained comparisons of the same type are a great feature:
>
> Do chained "in" comparisons ever really make sense, even when they're
> all the same type?
>
> I mean, I suppose 1 in (1, 2) in ((1, 2), (3, 4)) is technically true,
> but how useful is it really?

Quite probably never. But are there _any_ comparison operators which
are unchainable? If not, there's no reason to disallow 'in'; this is
the distinction between language-level features and usage
recommendations. All comparisons can be chained, and the semantics of
(X op1 Y op2 Z) will always be ((X op1 Y) and (Y op2 Z)) but with Y
evaluated only once. That definition is fairly simple, and even though
it's a little wordy, it makes perfect sense; and the rule "all
comparisons" is way WAY simpler than "this specific set of chainable
operators", even if the only ones you'd ever actually want to chain
are the classic numeric operators (==, !=, <, >, <=, >=). According to
the operator precedence table [1], all comparison operators stand
together, and dividing that would mean making a once-for-everyone
decision about which are plausibly chainable. Remember, the language
rules can't know what kinds of objects we're working with; I can write
a __contains__ method that does whatever I want, but I can't decide
whether or not 'x in y in z' is evaluated as 'x in y and y in z', or
'(x in y) in z', or 'x in (y in z)', no matter what the types of x, y,
and z.

Far as I can see, the only operator that you might want to disallow
chaining on is 'in' (and its mate 'not in', of course). It isn't
common, but "x is y is z is None" is a perfectly reasonable way to
ascertain whether or not they're all None, just as "x = y = z = None"
is a perfectly reasonable way to set them all to None; the arguments
as to whether it should be "the wordy operators don't chain" or
"everything except 'in' chains" would be interminable. Much simpler to
stick with "all operators chain", which (conveniently) is status quo.
:)

ChrisA

[1] https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html#operator-precedence

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Thread

True == 1 weirdness "Blake T. Garretson" <blake.garretson@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 05:16 -0700
  Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-16 15:53 +0300
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 23:05 +1000
    Re: True == 1 weirdness "Blake T. Garretson" <blake.garretson@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 06:14 -0700
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 10:03 -0400
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:24 +1000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:36 -0400
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:57 +0200
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:57 -0600
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 00:26 +1000
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 19:16 +0300
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 18:37 +0200
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 19:53 +0300
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:30 +1200
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 12:57 -0400
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:39 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 20:42 +0300
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-16 11:46 -0700
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:46 +0000
              Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 20:13 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 19:47 +0000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:25 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:36 +1200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 23:05 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:39 +1200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 22:46 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-09-17 16:26 -0500
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 23:52 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 22:30 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 00:15 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-17 01:06 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:33 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-17 10:56 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-09-17 12:07 +0000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-17 13:27 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 12:34 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 10:53 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:42 +1200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-16 18:12 -0700
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-09-16 18:10 -0500
            Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:53 +0200
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 22:47 +0300
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:29 +0100
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 22:27 +0100
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:23 +0200
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:27 +0000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-16 10:41 -0700
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:42 +1000
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:44 +0000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:55 -0400
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:55 -0600
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:16 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:22 +0100
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:17 +0100
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:24 +1200
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-17 10:06 +0300
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:49 -0600
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-17 23:24 +0300
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-17 17:26 -0400
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-18 00:38 +0300
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 23:49 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 12:03 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-18 10:10 +0300
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-18 22:30 +1000
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 04:57 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-17 23:44 +0300
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-09-16 09:38 -0500
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:40 -0400
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:33 +1000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:41 +0200
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:22 +1000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:47 -0400
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:52 +0000
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:25 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-17 02:10 -0400
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 12:29 +0000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:38 +0100
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 16:55 -0400
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 23:03 +0200
    Re: True == 1 weirdness jmp <jeanmichel@sequans.com> - 2015-09-21 14:01 +0200
  Re: True == 1 weirdness jmp <jeanmichel@sequans.com> - 2015-09-16 15:08 +0200
    Re: True == 1 weirdness "Blake T. Garretson" <blake.garretson@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 06:17 -0700
  Re: True == 1 weirdness Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-16 09:28 -0400
  Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 00:57 +1000

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