Re: True == 1 weirdness

From	Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: True == 1 weirdness
Date	2015-09-18 10:10 +0300
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<lf5wpvo42ze.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <d5v4lqF742pU1@mid.individual.net> <lf5fv2dcyo2.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi> <mailman.6.1442515790.16376.python-list@python.org> <lf5a8sk3ic9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi> <mailman.11.1442525221.16376.python-list@python.org>

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Random832 writes:

> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015, at 16:24, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>> And I'm saying 'in', being truth-valued, is more like a comparison
>> than a proper binary operation that has its value in the same set as
>> its two arguments.
>
> The problem is that except for very specialized cases (strings), the
> two arguments are not (semantically, at least) in the same set as each
> other, either. It may be "more" like a comparison, but it's not
> *really* like either one.

Agreed.

(In hierarchical set theories like ZFC, the membership predicate is
between things of the same type, too: sets, the only things there are.
That's hardly relevant in a typed setting.)

>> Just trying to explain what I had in mind when I said that I feel
>> that 'in' is more at home with comparisons (where it is now) than
>> with, hm, arithmetic operations.
>
> Why does it have to be either one? I don't even think chaining should
> work for all *actual* comparison operations.

To keep the rules simple. To keep the language comprehensible, and then
I can take the responsibility to keep my code comprehensible.

> Say you have this statement:
> (1) a < b = c <= d
> While it may *actually* mean this:
> (2) a < b and b = c and c <= d
> It *semantically* means this:
> (3) a < b and a < c and a < d and b = c and b <= d and c <= d

I prefer (1) with no hesitation. I start to worry about typos and
thinkos when the expression gets longer, and transitivity is such a
fundamental notion that I'd rather blame myself for not understanding
transitivity than the code for being too concise. (Also, == :)

Would really hate to be forced to spell it all out if there were more
complicated expressions in the chain.

> The ones that are included logically imply the ones that are not, for
> any sane definition of these operators. And if your operators *aren't*
> sane, it's better to be explicit about what you are doing.

Yes. Those, in (1), are sane.

> It should not be applied to any combination of operations that cannot
> meaningfully be read as such a statement (e.g. mixing directions of
> less/greater comparisons, or including in, is not, or != at all), or
> to any values expected to have (2) not imply (3).

I think (x != w != y) is ok to check that neither of x and y equals w.
Even (x < w > y) seems surprisingly clear to me: it's comparing the
extreme values to the middle value but not to each other. When in doubt,
I might add a comment next to the expression.

So in principle I agree. I just seem to tolerate more uses of chained
comparisons than you.

But longer chains are even rarer than 2-chains, and even 2-chains do not
happen so often, and when they do happen, they tend to be (j < k < n).
Shrug.

> It being *easier to implement* to have comparison operators be a single
> class and have chaining apply equally to all of them may be an excuse
> for the language to allow it, but it's certainly not an excuse for
> *actually* using it from a standpoint of good style and readability.

It's also easier to document and comprehend, and on the whole they are a
natural class. If something does go wrong, it's nice to find out that
the explanation is simple, and not yet another special case that I was
supposed to keep in mind.

Thread

True == 1 weirdness "Blake T. Garretson" <blake.garretson@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 05:16 -0700
  Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-16 15:53 +0300
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 23:05 +1000
    Re: True == 1 weirdness "Blake T. Garretson" <blake.garretson@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 06:14 -0700
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 10:03 -0400
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:24 +1000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:36 -0400
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:57 +0200
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:57 -0600
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 00:26 +1000
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 19:16 +0300
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 18:37 +0200
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 19:53 +0300
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:30 +1200
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 12:57 -0400
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:39 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 20:42 +0300
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-16 11:46 -0700
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:46 +0000
              Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 20:13 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 19:47 +0000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:25 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:36 +1200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 23:05 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:39 +1200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 22:46 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-09-17 16:26 -0500
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 23:52 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 22:30 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 00:15 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-17 01:06 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:33 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-17 10:56 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-09-17 12:07 +0000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-17 13:27 +0100
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 12:34 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 10:53 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:42 +1200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-16 18:12 -0700
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-09-16 18:10 -0500
            Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:53 +0200
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-16 22:47 +0300
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:29 +0100
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 22:27 +0100
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:23 +0200
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:27 +0000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-16 10:41 -0700
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:42 +1000
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:44 +0000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:55 -0400
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:55 -0600
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:16 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:22 +0100
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:17 +0100
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-09-17 18:24 +1200
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-17 10:06 +0300
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 12:49 -0600
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-17 23:24 +0300
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-17 17:26 -0400
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-18 00:38 +0300
                Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-17 23:49 +0200
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 12:03 +1000
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-18 10:10 +0300
                Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-18 22:30 +1000
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 04:57 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-17 23:44 +0300
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-09-16 09:38 -0500
    Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:40 -0400
      Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 03:33 +1000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 19:41 +0200
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:22 +1000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 13:47 -0400
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-16 17:52 +0000
          Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 11:25 +1000
            Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-17 02:10 -0400
              Re: True == 1 weirdness Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-17 12:29 +0000
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-16 21:38 +0100
        Re: True == 1 weirdness Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-16 16:55 -0400
        Re: True == 1 weirdness "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-16 23:03 +0200
    Re: True == 1 weirdness jmp <jeanmichel@sequans.com> - 2015-09-21 14:01 +0200
  Re: True == 1 weirdness jmp <jeanmichel@sequans.com> - 2015-09-16 15:08 +0200
    Re: True == 1 weirdness "Blake T. Garretson" <blake.garretson@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 06:17 -0700
  Re: True == 1 weirdness Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-16 09:28 -0400
  Re: True == 1 weirdness Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-17 00:57 +1000

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