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Re: copy on write

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On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:25:00 -0500
Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:

> On 2/2/2012 9:17 AM, John O'Hagan wrote:
> 
> > It's not so much about the type of x but that of x[1]. Wouldn't it
> > be possible to omit the assignment simply if the object referred to
> > by x[1] uses "+=" without creating a new object? That way,
> > some_tuple[i] += y will succeed if some_tuple[i] is a list but not
> > with, say, an int. That seems reasonable to me.
> 
> There was considerable discussion of the exact semantics of augmented 
> operations when they were introduced. I do not remember if that 
> particular idea was suggested (and rejected) or not. You could try to 
> look at the PEP, if there is one, or the dicussion ( probably on
> pydev list).
> 

I think we're 12 years late on this one. It's PEP 203 from 2000 and the key phrase was:

"The in-place function should always return a new reference, either
to the old `x' object if the operation was indeed performed
in-place, or to a new object."

If this had read:

"The in-place function should return a reference to a new object
if the operation was not performed in-place."

or something like that, we wouldn't be discussing this.

The discussion on py-dev at the time was quite limited but there was some lively debate on this list the following year (in the context of widespread controversy over new-fangled features which also included list comprehensions and generators), to which the BDFL's response was:

"You shouldn't think "+= is confusing because sometimes it modifies an
object and sometimes it does".  Gee, there are lots of places where
something that's *spelled* the same has a different effect depending
on the object types involved."


That's true, but I don't think there should be a different effect depending on what _name_ we use for an operand:

>>> t=([],)
>>> l=t[0]
>>> l is t[0]
True
>>> l+=[1]
>>> t
([1],)
>>> t[0]+=[1]
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: 'tuple' object does not support item assignment
>>> t
([1, 1],)
>>> l is t[0]
True

Same object, same operator, different name, different outcome. Maybe that was obvious from the foregoing discussion, but it shocked me when put that way.

John

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copy on write Eduardo Suarez-Santana <esuarez@itccanarias.org> - 2012-01-13 11:33 +0000
  Re: copy on write Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-01-13 12:10 +0000
    Re: copy on write Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-01-13 23:30 +1100
      Re: copy on write Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-01-13 13:04 +0000
        Re: copy on write Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-01-13 10:40 -0800
          Re: copy on write 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-01-13 14:26 -0800
          Re: copy on write 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-01-13 14:26 -0800
        Re: copy on write John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-02 14:18 +1100
        Re: copy on write Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-02-02 01:34 -0500
        Re: copy on write John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-02 19:11 +1100
          Re: copy on write Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-02 09:16 +0000
            Re: copy on write Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2012-02-02 11:53 +0100
              Re: copy on write MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-02-02 16:28 +0000
              Re: copy on write Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-02-02 12:21 -0500
            Re: copy on write John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-03 01:17 +1100
            Re: copy on write Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-02 12:25 -0500
            Re: copy on write John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-03 14:08 +1100
              Re: copy on write Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-03 05:04 +0000
                Re: copy on write Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-03 16:28 +1100
                Re: copy on write Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-03 07:35 -0800
                Re: copy on write Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2012-02-03 10:08 +0100
                Re: copy on write John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-03 21:47 +1100
                Re: copy on write Wolfram Hinderer <wolfram.hinderer@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-05 06:09 -0800
                Re: copy on write "OKB (not okblacke)" <brenNOSPAMbarn@NObrenSPAMbarn.net> - 2012-02-03 16:15 +0000
      Re: copy on write Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2012-02-02 11:42 +0100
    Re: copy on write Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-01-13 08:50 -0500
      Re: copy on write Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-13 15:13 +0000
        Re: copy on write Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-01-13 11:48 -0500
          Re: copy on write Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-01-13 16:54 +0000
            Re: copy on write Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-13 18:15 +0000
              Re: copy on write Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-01-14 05:26 +1100
                Re: copy on write Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-13 19:30 +0000
                Re: copy on write Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-01-13 20:11 +0000
            Re: copy on write Evan Driscoll <edriscoll@wisc.edu> - 2012-01-13 13:24 -0600
              Re: copy on write Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-01-13 21:20 +0000
                Re: copy on write Evan Driscoll <edriscoll@wisc.edu> - 2012-01-13 16:48 -0600
                Re: copy on write 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-02 05:33 -0800
                Re: copy on write Evan Driscoll <edriscoll@wisc.edu> - 2012-02-02 15:20 -0600
                Re: copy on write 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-02 05:33 -0800
                Re: copy on write 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-03 14:16 -0800
                Re: copy on write 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-03 14:16 -0800
          Re: copy on write Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-01 19:51 -0800
            Re: copy on write Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-02 05:31 +0000

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