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Groups > comp.lang.python > #61217

Re: Managing Google Groups headaches

From Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com>
Subject Re: Managing Google Groups headaches
Date 2013-12-06 21:24 -0500
References (2 earlier) <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org> <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com> <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com> <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com> <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 12/6/13 8:03 AM, rusi wrote:
>> I think you're off on the wrong track here.  This has nothing to do with
>> >plain text (ascii or otherwise).  It has to do with divorcing how you
>> >store and transport messages (be they plain text, HTML, or whatever)
>> >from how a user interacts with them.
>
> Evidently (and completely inadvertently) this exchange has just
> illustrated one of the inadmissable assumptions:
>
> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to be"
>
> I wrote a number of ellipsis characters ie codepoint 2026 as in:
>
>    - human communication…
> (is not very different from)
>    - machine communication…
>
> Somewhere between my sending and your quoting those ellipses became
> the replacement character FFFD
>
>>> > >   - human communication�
>>> > >(is not very different from)
>>> > >   - machine communication�
> Leaving aside whose fault this is (very likely buggy google groups),
> this mojibaking cannot happen if the assumption "All text is ASCII"
> were to uniformly hold.
>
> Of course with unicode also this can be made to not happen, but that
> is fragile and error-prone.  And that is because ASCII (not extended)
> is ONE thing in a way that unicode is hopelessly a motley inconsistent
> variety.

You seem to be suggesting that we should stick to ASCII.  There are of 
course languages that need more than just the Latin alphabet.  How would 
you suggest we support them?  Or maybe I don't understand?

--Ned.

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Thread

Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 05:52 -0800
  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 00:58 +1100
    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 06:17 -0800
      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 01:25 +1100
        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 07:04 -0800
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 02:08 +1100
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:50 +0000
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:22 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 16:33 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:49 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:49 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:50 +0000
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-28 11:43 -0500
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 04:29 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-02 13:03 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 08:29 -0500
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-02 14:04 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 09:11 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 17:48 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 04:54 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 18:07 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-02 19:56 -0500
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-02 19:54 -0500
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 18:17 -0700
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 20:43 -0500
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 18:27 -0800
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 20:09 -0700
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:26 -0800
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-03 04:27 +0000
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 18:01 +1100
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 16:30 +1000
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-03 07:13 +0000
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 10:23 +1000
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-04 14:34 +0000
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 15:21 +0000
                Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 12:09 +0000
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:40 -0700
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:23 -0800
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-28 12:23 -0500
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:29 -0700
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 10:37 -0800
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:00 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 12:55 -0700
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-28 19:40 +0000
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:50 -0700
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> - 2013-11-28 19:46 -0500
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-29 14:41 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-29 16:17 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-04 11:38 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 17:39 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 13:03 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-05 09:47 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 23:42 -0800
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-28 20:39 +0000
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-28 16:41 -0500
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches pecore@pascolo.net - 2013-11-30 14:25 +0100
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-04 11:40 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-04 15:50 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 16:07 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-04 11:21 -0500
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 16:33 +0000
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Zero Piraeus <z@etiol.net> - 2013-11-28 13:29 -0300
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-29 16:15 +0000
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-28 17:32 -0500
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-28 17:44 -0500
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-29 14:39 +0000
  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 10:13 -0800
    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> - 2013-12-04 09:52 -0500
      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-04 19:58 -0500
        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 23:13 -0800
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 02:36 -0500
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 05:03 -0800
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 00:19 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 05:32 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 00:48 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 06:11 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 01:51 +1100
              ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-06 19:00 +0000
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-06 14:34 -0500
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 20:54 +0000
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 10:42 +1100
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 18:33 -0800
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 13:41 +1100
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 19:16 -0800
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 15:08 +1100
                Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-12-07 03:19 +0000
                Re: ASCII and Unicode giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2013-12-07 17:05 +0100
                Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 08:41 -0800
                Re: ASCII and Unicode Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-08 17:22 +0000
                Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 09:39 -0800
                Re: ASCII and Unicode giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2013-12-08 21:11 +0100
                Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 19:02 -0800
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-07 12:27 +1300
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-06 21:24 -0500
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 23:43 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-07 02:16 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-07 11:25 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 22:49 +1100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-07 11:08 -0500
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-12-07 16:15 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-12-07 10:19 -0600
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 08:27 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-07 12:04 -0500
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-07 03:07 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 22:40 -0500
    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 02:46 +1100
    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 08:31 -0800

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