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Groups > comp.lang.python > #27391

Re: New internal string format in 3.3

From Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject Re: New internal string format in 3.3
Date 2012-08-19 14:46 +0100
References (12 earlier) <11931ec9-1858-4ae8-8a61-1d154d105229@googlegroups.com> <mailman.3492.1345372006.4697.python-list@python.org> <73c85f3b-a4a9-4812-bc41-132b5126874c@googlegroups.com> <mailman.3497.1345379387.4697.python-list@python.org> <1f22cebc-71aa-4881-bac5-d97d72fe2633@googlegroups.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.3501.1345383872.4697.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 19/08/2012 13:59, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> Le dimanche 19 août 2012 14:29:17 UTC+2, Dave Angel a écrit :
>> On 08/19/2012 08:14 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Le dimanche 19 ao�t 2012 12:26:44 UTC+2, Chris Angelico a �crit :
>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:19 PM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> This is precicely the weak point of this flexible
>>
>>>>> representation. It uses latin-1 and latin-1 is for
>>
>>>>> most users simply unusable.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> No, it uses Unicode, and as an optimization, attempts to store the
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> codepoints in less than four bytes for most strings. The fact that a
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> one-byte storage format happens to look like latin-1 is rather
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> coincidental.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>> And this this is the common basic mistake. You do not push your
>>
>>> argumentation far enough. A character may "fall" accidentally in a latin-1.
>>
>>> The problem lies in these european characters, which can not fall in this
>>
>>> coding. This *is* the cause of the negative side effects.
>>
>>> If you are using a correct coding scheme, like cp1252, mac-roman or
>>
>>> iso-8859-15, you will never see such a negative side effect.
>>
>>> Again, the problem is not the result, the encoded character. The critical
>>
>>> part is the character which may cause this side effect.
>>
>>> You should think "character set" and not encoded "code point", considering
>>
>>> this kind of expression has a sense in 8-bits coding scheme.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> jmf
>>
>>
>>
>> But that choice was made decades ago when Unicode picked its second 128
>>
>> characters.  The internal form used in this PEP is simply the low-order
>>
>> byte of the Unicode code point.  Trying to scan the string deciding if
>>
>> converting to cp1252 (for example) would be a much more expensive
>>
>> operation than seeing how many bytes it'd take for the largest code point.
>>
>>
>
> You are absoletely right. (I'm quite comfortable with Unicode).
> If Python wish to perpetuate this, lets call it, design mistake
> or ennoyement, it will continue to live with problems.

Please give a precise description of the design mistake and what you 
would do to correct it.

>
> People (tools) who chose pure utf-16 or utf-32 are not suffering
> from this issue.
>
> *My* final comment on this thread.
>
> In August 2012, after 20 years of development, Python is not
> able to display a piece of text correctly on a Windows console
> (eg cp65001).

Examples please.

>
> I downloaded the go language, zero experience, I did not succeed
> to display incorrecly a piece of text. (This is by the way *the*
> reason why I tested it). Where the problems are coming from, I have
> no idea.
>
> I find this situation quite comic. Python is able to
> produce this:
>
>>>> (1.1).hex()
> '0x1.199999999999ap+0'
>
> but it is not able to display a piece of text!

So you keep saying, but when asked for examples or evidence nothing gets 
produced.

>
> Try to convince end users IEEE 754 is more important than the
> ability to read/wirite a piece a text, a 6-years kid has learned
> at school :-)
>
> (I'm not suffering from this kind of effect, as a Windows user,
> I'm always working via gui, it still remains, the problem exists.

Windows is a law unto itself.  Its problems are hardly specific to Python.

>
> Regards,
> jmf
>

Now two or three times you've said you're going but have come back.  If 
you come again could you please provide examples and or evidence of what 
you're on about, because you still have me baffled.

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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Thread

How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Charles Jensen <hopefullycharles@gmail.com> - 2012-08-16 15:09 -0700
  Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-17 08:20 +1000
  Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-16 18:47 -0400
  Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-16 19:59 -0400
    Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-17 10:49 -0700
      Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2012-08-17 14:21 -0400
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-17 11:45 -0700
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-17 11:45 -0700
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-17 16:55 -0400
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-17 23:30 -0400
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-18 04:10 +0000
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-18 09:18 -0600
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-18 03:59 +0000
    Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-17 10:49 -0700
  Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-08-17 06:30 +0000
  Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 01:09 -0700
    Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-18 12:27 +0000
      Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 08:07 -0700
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-18 16:25 +0100
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 01:36 +1000
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-18 09:51 -0600
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 09:38 -0700
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 02:57 +1000
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-18 18:28 +0100
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 11:05 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-18 19:34 +0100
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 06:35 +0000
                New internal string format in 3.3, was Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-08-19 09:43 +0200
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3, was Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 08:56 +0000
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3, was Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 02:24 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-08-19 11:37 +0200
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 03:19 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 13:33 +0000
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 03:19 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 20:26 +1000
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 05:14 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-19 08:29 -0400
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 05:59 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-19 14:46 +0100
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 07:09 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 07:09 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-19 15:48 +0100
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 09:19 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 09:19 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-19 13:48 -0400
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 10:51 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-19 19:09 +0100
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-20 07:50 +1000
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 23:38 -0600
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-20 09:17 -0400
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-08-20 22:18 -0600
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-21 07:48 -0400
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 10:51 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-19 13:56 -0400
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 05:59 -0700
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-19 08:35 -0400
                Re: New internal string format in 3.3 wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 05:14 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 06:30 +0000
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 11:05 -0700
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-18 16:09 -0400
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-18 23:12 -0400
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 09:38 -0700
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 06:33 +0000
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 11:50 -0600
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 11:20 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 12:31 -0600
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 12:23 -0700
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 20:16 +0000
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 12:46 -0600
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-18 17:59 +0000
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 11:30 -0700
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-18 20:45 +0100
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 06:13 +0000
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-08-18 11:40 -0700
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-18 20:50 +0100
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-18 13:22 -0700
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-18 22:37 +0100
      Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-18 11:26 -0700
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-18 19:59 +0100
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 07:17 +0000
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 10:46 +1000
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-18 19:11 -0700
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 12:19 +1000
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-18 19:35 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 13:01 +1000
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-18 20:10 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 13:31 +1000
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-18 22:58 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 08:01 +0000
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 01:11 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 18:24 +1000
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 01:44 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 01:54 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-19 11:46 +0100
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-19 12:31 -0400
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 10:51 +0000
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Neil Hodgson <nhodgson@iinet.net.au> - 2012-08-21 17:03 +1000
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 06:09 +0000
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 01:04 -0700
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 13:25 +0000
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() DJC <djc@news.invalid> - 2012-08-19 17:32 +0200
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-19 13:34 -0400
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 10:48 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 11:11 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-19 19:50 +0100
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-19 17:59 -0400
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 23:13 -0700
                Abuse of Big Oh notation [was Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord()] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 20:15 +0000
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 16:42 -0700
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-08-20 09:24 +0100
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-20 09:01 -0700
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-21 02:09 +1000
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-20 11:12 -0600
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-20 12:29 -0700
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-20 15:16 -0700
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-20 15:20 -0700
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-21 09:53 +0000
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-20 11:42 -0700
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2012-08-20 18:19 -0700
                Abuse of subject, was Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-08-21 09:52 +0200
                Re: Abuse of subject, was Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-21 10:16 -0700
                Re: Abuse of subject, was Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-21 10:16 -0700
                Re: Abuse of Big Oh notation wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-20 11:42 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-08-22 20:53 +0200
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-20 08:42 +1000
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-19 19:24 -0400
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-20 04:21 +0000
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-20 00:44 -0400
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-20 05:56 +0000
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-19 23:24 -0700
                Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-20 12:58 -0400
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-19 20:35 -0400
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-20 14:07 +1000
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-19 11:13 +0100
            Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-19 20:19 +1000
              Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-19 11:49 +0100
      Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() "Blind Anagram" <noname@nowhere.com> - 2012-08-19 18:03 +0100
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-08-19 10:33 -0700
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() "Blind Anagram" <noname@nowhere.com> - 2012-08-19 19:04 +0100
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-19 14:05 -0400
          Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable usingord() "Blind Anagram" <noname@nowhere.com> - 2012-08-19 19:18 +0100
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-19 20:31 +0000
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-19 17:03 -0400
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-19 17:32 -0700
        Re: How do I display unicode value stored in a string variable using ord() Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2012-08-20 17:20 -0400

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