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Re: Language design

References <522eb795$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.270.1378935062.5461.python-list@python.org> <5230ff66$0$29988$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.287.1378946951.5461.python-list@python.org> <52315238$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Date 2013-09-12 20:23 -0700
Subject Re: Language design
From Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.338.1379042609.5461.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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>> Really?  Are you saying you (and the community at-large) always derive
>> from Object as your base class?
>
> Not directly, that would be silly.

Silly?  "Explicit is better than implicit"... right?

>> But wait is it the "base" (at the bottom of the hierarchy) or is it the
>> "parent" at the top?  You see, you, like everyone else has been using
>> these terms loosely, confusing yourself.
>
> Depends on whether I'm standing on my head or not.
>
> Or more importantly, it depends on whether I visualise my hierarchy going
> top->down or bottom->up. Both are relevant, and both end up with the
> *exact same hierarchy* with only the direction reversed.

Ha,  "only the direction reversed".  That little directionality that
you're passing by so blithely is the difference between whether you're
talking about galaxies or atoms.  Please.

The simplicity of Python has seduced you into making an "equivocation"
of sorts.  It's subtle and no one in the field has noticed it.  It
crept in slowly and imperceptively.

>> By inheriting from sets you get a lot of useful
>> functionality for free.  That you don't know how you could use that
>> functionality is a failure of your imagination, not of the general idea.
>
> No you don't. You get a bunch of ill-defined methods that don't make
> sense on dicts.

They are not necessarily ill-defined.  Keep in mind Python already
chose (way back in 1.x) to arbitrary overwrite the values in a key
collision.  So this problem isn't new.  You've simply adapted to this
limitation without knowing what you were missing.

>>>> 3) It used the set literal for dict, so that there's no obvious way to
>>>> do it.  This didn't get changed in Py3k.
>>>
>>> No, it uses the dict literal for dicts.
>>
>> Right.  The dict literal should be {:} -- the one obvious way to do it.
>
> I don't agree it is obvious. It is as obvious as (,) being the empty tuple
> or [,] being the empty list.

You're just being argumentative.  If there are sets as built-ins, then
{:} is the obvious dict literal, because {} is the obvious one for
set.  You don't need [,] to be the list literal because there is no
simpler list-type.

>>> And the obvious way to form an empty set is by calling set(), the same
>>> as str(), int(), list(), float(), tuple(), dict(), ...
>>
>> Blah, blah.  Let me know when you got everyone migrated over to
>> Python.v3.
>
> What does this have to do with Python 3? It works fine in Python 2.

I mean, you're suggestions are coming from a "believer", not someone
wanting to understand the limitations of python or whether v3 has
succeeded at achieving its potential.

>>> I don't even understand what you are talking about here. "[reference]
>>> variables"? What does that mean?
>>
>> It's a just a tricky point, that I will wait to comment on.
>
> I'm looking forward to an explanation, as I'm intrigued.

Well, wer'e here at junior-high.  It will take some time....
-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington

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Thread

Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-10 06:09 +0000
  Re: Language design diverman <pavel@schon.cz> - 2013-09-09 23:59 -0700
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-10 17:07 +1000
    Re: Language design Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-09-11 01:03 +0100
      Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 00:53 +0000
        Re: Language design Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-09-12 18:23 +0100
  Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-10 09:58 +0200
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 20:20 +1000
  Re: Language design Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2013-09-10 18:46 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:21 +1000
  Re: Language design Burak Arslan <burak.arslan@arskom.com.tr> - 2013-09-11 13:38 +0300
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-11 14:32 +0000
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 00:46 +1000
  Re: Language design Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-09-11 06:42 -0500
  Re: Language design Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-09-11 12:05 +0000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-11 07:52 -0700
  Re: Language design Burak Arslan <burak.arslan@arskom.com.tr> - 2013-09-11 18:41 +0300
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-11 22:41 +0200
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 23:40 +0000
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:22 -0700
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:30 -0700
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 23:40 +0000
      Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:49 -0700
        Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 05:33 +0000
          Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 20:23 -0700
            Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-13 05:08 +0000
              Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 17:39 +1000
              Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 19:37 -0700
              Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-15 09:57 +0200
      Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-11 21:40 -0400
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 11:41 +1000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-11 14:15 -0700
  RE: Language design "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com.dmarc.invalid> - 2013-09-11 21:56 +0000
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:16 +1000
  Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:22 +1000
    Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 20:12 +0000
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 09:27 +1000
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:19 +1000
  Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-11 19:51 -0400
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:25 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:31 +1000
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 02:33 +0000
      Re: Language design Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-09-11 22:43 -0400
        Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 12:58 +1000
        Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 05:08 +0000
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:34 -0700
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:37 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:40 +1000
  Re: Language design Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2013-09-11 17:54 -0700
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 10:57 +1000
  Re: Language design Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2013-09-12 05:17 +0100
  Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-09-12 04:27 -0500
  Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:44 +0100
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 19:51 +0200
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-12 18:06 +0000
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 20:13 +0200
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 20:24 +0200
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-12 19:18 +0000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-12 11:05 -0700
  Re: Language design Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-09-12 14:37 -0400
  Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-12 14:46 -0400
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 07:53 +1000
  Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-13 09:04 +0200
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-13 10:13 +0000
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 21:16 +1000
      Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-13 13:28 +0200
      Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-13 15:32 -0400
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 09:57 +1000
        Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 14:57 +0000
          Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 01:02 +1000
            Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 15:08 +0000
              Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 01:12 +1000
              Re: Language design William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-09-18 12:58 -0400
                Re: Language design wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-09-18 10:45 -0700
                Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 17:55 +0000
      Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 17:28 -0700
      Re: Language design Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 07:25 +0200

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