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Re: Language design

From Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Subject Re: Language design
Date 2013-09-10 17:07 +1000
References <522eb795$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.201.1378796842.5461.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> writes:

> What design mistakes, traps or gotchas do you think Python has?

* Imports are fiendishly complex, hidden below deceptively simple
  syntax.

  It's a reasonable expectation that one can import a module from a
  source code file given its path on the filesystem, but this turns out
  to be much more complicated than in many other languages.

  There are reasons for this, some good, some merely historical baggage,
  some workarounds for OS misdesign, and some that may be Python's own
  mistakes. Those reasons are difficult to appreciate when first
  encountering the problem.

* Somewhat related, and not really part of language design: The import
  mechanism and the packaging tools are woefully behind the state of the
  art in getting applications and their libraries to cooperate with
  operating system package management.

  This has the terrible effect that developers choose to insulate Python
  from the operating system, essentially losing all the benefits of the
  operating system package manager for their dependencies and needing to
  re-implement package management all over again, badly.

  This is largely the fault of operating systems with package dependency
  managers that are poor (Apple's) to nonexistent (Microsoft's). But the
  result is that Python's tools have been particularly woeful in this
  area compared to some other languages, and the Python community now
  has learned to subvert all OS package managers, even the good ones.

> Gotchas are not necessarily a bad thing, there may be good reasons for
> it, but they're surprising.

* Python requires every programmer to know, or quickly learn, the basics
  of Unicode: to know that text is not, and never will be again,
  synonymous with a sequence of bytes.

  This is, in the long run, a good thing for all programmers and those
  who will use their programs. Programmers should expect to deal with
  non-ASCII text earlier than the innocent might suppose, and the
  likelihood goes up all the time. The sooner we replace the erroneous
  “text is ASCII” in the common wisdom with “text is Unicode”, the
  better.

  Nevertheless, the outstanding robustness of Python's Unicode support
  is different from most languages, and so is a gotcha.

-- 
 \      “Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than |
  `\  it ceases to be serious when people laugh.” —George Bernard Shaw |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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Thread

Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-10 06:09 +0000
  Re: Language design diverman <pavel@schon.cz> - 2013-09-09 23:59 -0700
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-10 17:07 +1000
    Re: Language design Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-09-11 01:03 +0100
      Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 00:53 +0000
        Re: Language design Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-09-12 18:23 +0100
  Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-10 09:58 +0200
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 20:20 +1000
  Re: Language design Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2013-09-10 18:46 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:21 +1000
  Re: Language design Burak Arslan <burak.arslan@arskom.com.tr> - 2013-09-11 13:38 +0300
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-11 14:32 +0000
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 00:46 +1000
  Re: Language design Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-09-11 06:42 -0500
  Re: Language design Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-09-11 12:05 +0000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-11 07:52 -0700
  Re: Language design Burak Arslan <burak.arslan@arskom.com.tr> - 2013-09-11 18:41 +0300
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-11 22:41 +0200
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 23:40 +0000
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:22 -0700
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:30 -0700
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 23:40 +0000
      Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:49 -0700
        Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 05:33 +0000
          Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 20:23 -0700
            Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-13 05:08 +0000
              Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 17:39 +1000
              Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 19:37 -0700
              Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-15 09:57 +0200
      Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-11 21:40 -0400
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 11:41 +1000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-11 14:15 -0700
  RE: Language design "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com.dmarc.invalid> - 2013-09-11 21:56 +0000
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:16 +1000
  Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:22 +1000
    Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 20:12 +0000
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 09:27 +1000
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:19 +1000
  Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-11 19:51 -0400
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:25 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:31 +1000
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 02:33 +0000
      Re: Language design Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-09-11 22:43 -0400
        Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 12:58 +1000
        Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 05:08 +0000
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:34 -0700
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:37 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:40 +1000
  Re: Language design Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2013-09-11 17:54 -0700
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 10:57 +1000
  Re: Language design Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2013-09-12 05:17 +0100
  Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-09-12 04:27 -0500
  Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:44 +0100
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 19:51 +0200
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-12 18:06 +0000
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 20:13 +0200
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 20:24 +0200
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-12 19:18 +0000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-12 11:05 -0700
  Re: Language design Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-09-12 14:37 -0400
  Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-12 14:46 -0400
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 07:53 +1000
  Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-13 09:04 +0200
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-13 10:13 +0000
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 21:16 +1000
      Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-13 13:28 +0200
      Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-13 15:32 -0400
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 09:57 +1000
        Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 14:57 +0000
          Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 01:02 +1000
            Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 15:08 +0000
              Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 01:12 +1000
              Re: Language design William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-09-18 12:58 -0400
                Re: Language design wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-09-18 10:45 -0700
                Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 17:55 +0000
      Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 17:28 -0700
      Re: Language design Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 07:25 +0200

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