Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"]

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From	Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com>
Date	2013-06-06 14:44 -0400
Subject	Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"]
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.2818.1370544290.3114.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Super OT divergence because I am a loser nerd:

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:27 PM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, all programming communities have blind-spots.  The Haskell
> community's is that Haskell is safe and safe means that errors are
> caught at compile-time.

I don't think Haskell people believe this with the thoroughness you
describe. There are certainly haskell programmers that are aware of
basic theory of computation.

> Unfortunately* the halting problem stands.  When generalized to Rice
> theorem it says that only trivial properties of programs are
> algorithmically decidable:
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RicesTheorem.html
>
> And so the semantic correctness of a program -- a non-trivial property
> -- is not decidable.

Just because a problem is NP-complete or undecidable, doesn't mean
there aren't techniques that give the benefits you want (decidability,
poly-time) for a related problem. Programmers often only or mostly
care about that related problem, so it isn't the end of the line just
when we hit this stumbling block.

As far as undecidability goes, one possibility is to accept a subset
of desired programs. For example, restrict the language to not be
turing complete, and there is no problem.

Another resolution to the problem of undecidability is to accept a
_superset_ of the collection you want. This permits some programs
without the property we want, but it's often acceptable anyway.

A third approach is to attach proofs, and only accept a program with
an attached and correct proof of said property. This is a huge
concept, vital to understanding complexity theory. It may be
undecidable to find a proof, but once it is found, it is decidable to
check the proof against the program.

Haskell takes something akin to the second approach, and allows errors
to exist which would require "too much work" to eliminate at compile
time. (Although the type system is a literal case of the first
resolution). Python, by contrast, often values flexibility over
correctness, regardless of how easy it might be to check an error at
compile time. The two languages have different philosophies, and that
is something to respect. The reduction to Rice's theorem does not
respect the trade-off that Haskell is making, it ignores it. It may be
a "pipe dream" to get everything ever, but that's not to say that the
entire approach is invalid and that we should ignore how Haskell
informs the PL discourse.

For some reason both the Python and Haskell communities feel the other
is foolish and ignorant, dismissing their opinions as unimportant
babbling. I wish that would stop.

-- Devin

Thread

PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 10:04 -0700
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:20 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-02 17:49 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:18 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-02 16:45 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:49 -0600
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 17:17 +1000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-06-03 08:01 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:09 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 19:03 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:21 +1000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:23 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:29 -0700
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-04 14:35 +0100
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:03 +0000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 12:30 -0500
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:34 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 18:58 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:28 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 18:37 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:16 +0200
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 20:53 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 04:30 +0000
      Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 05:39 +0000
        Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 08:44 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:00 +1000
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:19 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:27 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:28 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:31 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-04 13:25 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:09 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 18:31 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:10 +0100
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 13:32 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 11:42 -0600
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 16:21 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 00:37 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:28 -0600
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:15 +1000
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:47 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:26 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 09:59 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 09:15 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 14:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:56 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:29 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 21:25 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0600
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 09:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:12 +0300
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:35 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:41 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:08 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:27 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:44 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:53 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:44 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 22:01 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-07 02:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:14 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:30 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:43 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:08 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:00 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-06 17:32 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:37 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 07:09 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:26 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:36 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:46 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-05 12:10 -0400
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:18 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 16:52 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 19:20 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:39 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:55 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:30 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 20:16 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 03:10 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:23 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:20 +0000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:52 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 13:37 +1000
        Python Heisenbugs?  (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:34 +0000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:05 +1000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:06 -0400
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-03 09:49 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-06-03 08:56 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 12:02 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:12 -0600
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:09 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-03 20:31 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:44 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:10 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:11 -0400

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