Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"]

Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Date	2013-06-05 00:47 -0700
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Message-ID	<bc080fe5-b4ee-47e6-a526-8887654f4e34@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"]
From	"Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com>

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On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 12:15:57 AM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Russ P. wrote:
> 
> > On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 8:44:11 AM UTC-7, Rick Johnson wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> >> Yes, but the problem is not "my approach", rather the lack
> 
> >>
> 
> >> of proper language design (my apologizes to the "anointed
> 
> >>
> 
> >> one". ;-)
> 
> >
> 
> > If you don't like implicit conversion to Boolean, then maybe you should be using another language -- and I mean that in a constructive sense. I'm not particularly fond of it either, but I switched from Python to another language a while back. The issue is not a lack of "proper language design" but rather a language design philosophy that values conciseness and simplicity over explicitness and rigor.
> 
> 
> 
> (Out of curiosity, which language? Feel free to not answer, or to
> 
> answer off-list, as that's probably not constructive to the thread.)

No problem. I'm using Scala. It has a sophisticated type system. The language is not perfect, but it seems to suit my needs fairly well.

> 
> 
> I cannot name a single modern programming language that does NOT have
> 
> some kind of implicit boolification. The only such language I know of
> 
> is REXX, which has a single data type for everything, but insists on
> 
> the exact strings "1" and "0" for True and False, anything else is an
> 
> error. Every other language has some definition of "these things are
> 
> true, these are false"; for instance:


Scala (and Java) don't do that. Nor does Ada. That's because Ada is designed for no-nonsense critical systems. It is the standard higher-order language for flight control systems, for example. 


> > It's all loosey goosey -- which is fine for many applications but certainly not for critical ones.
> 
> 
> 
> The looseness doesn't preclude critical applications. It's all a
> 
> question of what you're testing. Does your code care that this be a
> 
> list, and not something else? Then test! You have that option. What
> 
> happens if it isn't a list, and something is done that bombs with an
> 
> exception? Maybe that's not a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Critical applications can often be built in layers. For instance, a
> 
> network server might listen for multiple socket connections, and for
> 
> each connection, process multiple requests. You would want to catch
> 
> exceptions at the two boundaries there; if a request handler crashes,
> 
> the connection should not be dropped, and if a connection handler
> 
> crashes, the server should keep running. With some basic defenses like
> 
> that, your code need no longer concern itself with trivialities - if
> 
> something goes wrong, there'll be an exception in the log. (BTW, this
> 
> is one of the places where a bare or very wide except clause is
> 
> appropriate. Log and move on.)


Well, I don't really want to open the Pandora's box of static vs. dynamic typing. Yes, with enough testing, I'm sure you can get something good out of a dynamically typed language for small to medium-sized applications, but I have my doubts about larger applications. However, I don't claim to be an expert. Someone somewhere has probably developed a solid large application in Python. But I'll bet a dollar to a dime that it took more work than it would have taken in a good statically typed language. Yes, extensive testing can go a long way, but extensive testing combined with good static typing can go even further for the same level of effort.

Thread

PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 10:04 -0700
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:20 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-02 17:49 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:18 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-02 16:45 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:49 -0600
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 17:17 +1000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-06-03 08:01 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 11:09 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 19:03 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:21 +1000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:23 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:29 -0700
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-04 14:35 +0100
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:03 +0000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 12:30 -0500
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:34 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-02 18:58 +0000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 06:28 +1000
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 18:37 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 05:16 +0200
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 20:53 -0700
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 04:30 +0000
      Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-04 05:39 +0000
        Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 08:44 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:00 +1000
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:19 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 02:27 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-05 05:28 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:31 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-06-04 13:25 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 09:09 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 18:31 -0700
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:10 +0100
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 13:32 -0400
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 11:42 -0600
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 16:21 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 00:37 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:28 -0600
          Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 23:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:15 +1000
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:47 -0700
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:26 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-05 09:59 +0100
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 09:15 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 02:59 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 14:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:56 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:29 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 21:25 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0600
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 09:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:12 +0300
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:35 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:41 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:08 +0100
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:27 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 14:44 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 10:59 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:53 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 18:44 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 22:01 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-07 02:29 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:14 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:30 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 20:43 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:08 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:49 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 02:00 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-06 17:32 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-06 01:37 +0000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:45 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 07:09 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:26 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 08:36 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 01:46 +1000
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:03 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:11 -0700
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-06-05 12:10 -0400
            Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 17:18 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] "Russ P." <Russ.Paielli@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 16:52 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 19:20 -0600
              Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 09:24 -0700
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 12:39 -0400
                Re: Bools and explicitness [was Re: PyWart: The problem with "print"] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:55 -0700
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 17:30 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 20:16 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 03:10 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-02 23:23 -0400
        Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:20 +0000
          Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:52 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 13:37 +1000
        Python Heisenbugs?  (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-06-03 04:34 +0000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:05 +1000
          Re: Python Heisenbugs? (was: Re: PyWart: The problem with "print") Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 03:06 -0400
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-03 09:49 +0100
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-06-03 08:56 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 12:02 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 11:12 -0600
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:09 -0400
    Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-03 20:31 +0000
      Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 06:44 +1000
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:10 -0400
  Re: PyWart: The problem with "print" Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 15:11 -0400

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